From an LCG source:
Gerald Weston writes:
“Many think they know—but, once again, we must ask: Have they proved it? Most people accept the religious beliefs of parents and peers. While many individuals at least temporarily stray from religion after leaving home, normally Protestants remain Protestant, Catholics remain Catholic, and Muslims remain in the Islamic faith. But are all religions equal? Do “all roads lead to heaven,” as some believe? Try to get to Detroit that way! No, there are contradictory doctrines even within dominant religious categories. Consider how many Protestant denominations there are. Some believe baptism by immersion is necessary, others that you are only saved if you speak in “tongues of angels.” My friends, they cannot all be right!” (my emphasis)
There is no parody like self-parody.
There are over 500 splits of the old WCG. That line may have worked in the 70s, but now the statement should read: Consider how many WCG denominations there are.
Jerry should start living in the 2020s – the 1970s are history.
13 comments:
Lol well said
Can Weston really be that stupid?
"Have they proved it." Has he proved that churches are not to be run along lording cult lines? it's the church culture of Herb comes first and what the bible teaches comes second. They always hope that readers won't notice the log in their ministers eye.
Can Weston really be that stupid?
He is surrounded by yes men, so he'll never know. At first, Weston would say privately that he planned to undo some of Rod Meredith's biggest mistakes, but instead he has undone some of Rod Meredith's best decisions, while doubling down on an approach that reinforces the cult atmosphere in LCG. Rod Meredith was much better than Weston at acknowledging mistakes and making corrections. Weston doesn't have children manipulating him, but he has his own clique of insiders who know how to manipulate him into getting what they want, while making him think it's his idea.
"My friends, they cannot all be right!”
I recall GTA using this argument back years ago. While this statement is not illogical, it was recruited to support conclusions that it did not support. It is meant to underpin the idea that Christian denominations are in disarray and that nobody with any sense would give credence to such a bizarre tangle of beliefs. In truth, Christian denominations are remarkably in agreement on the essentials. They all believe, for instance, that salvation comes by faith through grace.
Whereas Armstrongism incorporates OT ceremonial law into the salvific equation (Jesus Plus). This is exactly what Paul said caused the Circumcision Party to be alienated from grace and Christ. Based on Paul's declaration one would expect that Armstrongism would have no robust doctrine of grace. And that is what we find. They instead dwell in the lightless and superseded netherworld of finely parsed OT legislation.
The verifiable picture is that most Christian denominations are on the same page in the essentials and Armstrongism is an outlandish one-off. And who is right and who is wrong is not a statistical inference but a matter of Biblically founded dogma. So in this case, we might say, "a distant one-off can't possibly be right" and find ourselves with a much more defensible maxim.
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Gerald Weston wrote: "...Many think they know—but, once again, we must ask: Have they proved it? ... Some believe baptism by immersion is necessary, others that you are only saved if you speak in “tongues of angels.” My friends, they cannot all be right!” ..."
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Yes, have the likes of Weston, Winnail, Wineland, Kubik, Flurry...former WCG hirelings proved that their theory of a Mickey Mouse Millennium (AKA MMM = Christ "very soon" to be reigning on earth for 1,000 years with a bunch of little helpers) is really true?
On the Living Web site we may find these words:
"...CHRIST’S SECOND COMING
Jesus solemnly promised His disciples ten times in Matthew 24 that He would assuredly “come again” to this earth (cf. John 14:3). He said “tribulation” would precede the coming of the Son of Man (Matthew 24:29–30). His coming, with a “great sound of a trumpet” (v. 31), will occur when the “seventh trumpet” sounds (Revelation 11:15). That trumpet is also called the “last trumpet” (1 Corinthians 15:52; 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18). This is the “first resurrection,” and those who take part in that resurrection will reign with Christ on earth “for a thousand years” (Revelation 5:9–10; 20:4, 6)..."
Jesus Christ, according to other about 16 NT scriptures, admit that He would be at the Father's right hand in heaven for a long time, yet. Even an OT prophecy said the following:
Psalm 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool."
Satan, after 1,000 years ahead of us, will be set loose to deceive the entire world and cause war, b/c all enemies had not as of then be put down/subdued.
Perhaps Weston need to reconsider their proof(s) of a soon-coming MMM with "another Jesus" reigning on earth as it may be a heresy.
If Weston has his eyes opened to some change/repentance along these lines, perhaps he may, in the future finally include himself, re-phrase his concluding question to be as follows:
"My friends, WE cannot all be right!"
When might Weston, Winnail, et al have a change in mind?
Time will tell...
John
The statement was made --"My friends, they cannot all be right!”
Yet, the reality is that EVERYONE , including those in any splinter are all different to some varying degree or another.
No one is in perfect agreement with anyone, not even husbands and wives. For example, even with groups that believe in the
Sabbath, there is wide variety of personal practice on what you can do or not do on it. I recall someone who thought that rinsing a coffee cup for a second or so under the faucet was not to be done on the Sabbath. (assumes that you agree that even drinking coffee in the first place is an ok thing to do!).
Can you take a hike on the Sabbath, have sex on the Sabbath, and on top of that, what position to do it in??
You see my point I hope. There is no such thing as a group unity to the nth degree. Trying to create yellow pencils and bots is a hopeless task. We all look thru the glass darkly, and take our best guesses on many issues in life, whether we are religious or not.
The best religious unity statement I have ever seen was in the movie "Rudy". When a priest is asked by Rudy about a profound personal decision he is to make, the priest rightly responds ..."Rudy, after 40 years as a priest, I have discovered two things. One... There is a God. Two... Im not it!"
If there really is a Holy Spirit, then we must trust it to lead us and direct us. My experience is that this is a very slow process indeed. Biggest problems with hierarchical and paternalistic organizations is that they do not have any faith that the Holy Spirit leads their congregants, and that this necessitates them having to "grab the steering wheel" and take control of people lives themselves.
The fruit of such machinations and control efforts has not been manifest.
NEO, January 18, 2021 at 7:22 AM, wrote:
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"...In truth, Christian denominations are remarkably in agreement on the essentials. They all believe, for instance, that salvation comes by faith through grace.
Whereas Armstrongism incorporates OT ceremonial law into the salvific equation (Jesus Plus)..."
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Jesus Plus? What's it? "Another Jesus?"
Some believe Jesus was man: flesh, blood and bone, just like us, while others believe Jesus was "man Plus:"
- all man, all God
- half man, half God
- 50% man, 50% God
Once upon a time, it appears that the Apostle John thought (about 90s AD) that people were believing in a "Jesus Plus:"
1 John 4:2 "Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist."
Was the Apostle John aware if another Jesus, a Jesus Plus? Something that was human Plus, flesh Plus?
Is that why some pictures of Jesus show Him wearing a "halo" to indicate that He was more than flesh, and not just another human being like us?
Might some people (e.g. Weston, Winnail, Kubik, Flurry, Pack, Thiel, former WCG hirelings?) be believing in some Jesus Plus: some "spirit of antichrist?"
Time will tell...
John
Dear Jerry,
I am so confused!
I so desperately want to belong to the one true church, but there are so many of them.
How do I know which is the right one among the 500 all claiming to be the church of God?
They can't all be right.
Can they all be wrong.
Please enlighten me.
Confused and wondering in Anytown, USA.
PS - hope you don't mind me calling you Jerry. All the bigshots in the Bible are known and called by their first names, and I am sure a deep student of the Bible like you would not want to do anything non-Biblical.
Bahahahahaha, that is the funniest thing I have read in a long a time "Rod Meredith was much better at acknowledging mistakes and making corrections". Hahaha, no he wasn't, He was one of the most arrogant man in the Church, why do you think he was banished to Hawaii. Mr. Armstrong clearly made this known, that is why Meredith was never put as first to lead the Church after Mr. Armstrong died. Meredith only made changes to things others put in place, never his own mistakes. lol!!
John (8:39)
This reference I used was to a Jesus Plus Cult. Some cults believe that Jesus alone was not adequate for salvation. This even though Paul states that we are saved by grace through faith and, at other places, by the life of Christ in us. All of this as a result of Christ's accomplished work on the cross.
Some examples. I am not asserting that I have verified each of these. But these examples indicate the principle of Jesus Plus Cultism. Some cults believe that salvation requires:
1. . . . the sacrifice of Jesus PLUS you also must abide by certain denominational regulations - maybe wear a holy garment or give a certain amount of money or profess loyalty to a certain leader.
2. . . . the sacrifice of Christ PLUS you also had to turn you wife over to David Koresh. Then he could have relations with her but you could not.
3. . . . and, more to the point, the sacrifice of Jesus PLUS you have to be circumcised (The Circumcision Party - the nemesis of Paul) or keep certain OT ceremonial laws like the sabbath, the high days, dietary restrictions and tithing (many modern day Apocalyptic Millerites).
All of this says Jesus wasn't enough. Human legislation has to be added for salvation to happen. This makes the "contribution" very important and strokes the egos of Jesus Plus Cult leaders. This is the added condition that opens the door to control by human leaders. (I do not know how they deal with the case of the Thief on the Cross, whom Christ saved clearly by Himself alone.)
So my term "Jesus Plus" was shorthand for "Jesus Plus Cult" which refers to those aberrant religions that presume to add extraneous requirements to Biblical salvation in Christ. It does not refer to Christ's person either in the flesh or in spiritual essence. I first encountered the term in discussion with an AC Big Sandy graduate who had become a Disciples of Christ minister. He pointed out that Armstrongism was not a Salvation by Works Cult but a Jesus Plus Cult. This was some years back and I am not sure the term is much used now.
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NEO, January 18, 2021 at 1:51 PM, wrote:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the Jesus Plus, which I never heard of before, but it sure seems like so many like to ADD, or PLUS, to what is available.
People find it hard to believe that Jesus came in flesh, and want to ADD something else to Him and make Him into some sort of a creature: a freak-human, a freak-god, whatever, something else than what He Himself said that He was. So, among other things, they add and believe in "another Jesus" soon, very soon to appear on earth and rule for 1,000 years. They just can't or don't want to believe that it will be over a 1,000 years, after Satan exits the pit, before He reigns on earth. That's plus!
Jesus said: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh..." John 3:6 So they then strive to add spirit to that flesh, as if they though one could successfully mix a cat-dog or oil-vinegar. They make something so simple to be far more complex.
Jesus also added another comment: "...and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." To mix flesh-spirit, to plus what Jesus said, is to preach the spirit of antichrist: against Christ, something opposite Christ, something that Christ wasn't. The Apostle John knew what was happening...it still happens today.
You wrote: "...All of this says Jesus wasn't enough. Human legislation has to be added for salvation to happen. This makes the "contribution" very important and strokes the egos of Jesus Plus Cult leaders. This is the added condition that opens the door to control by human leaders. (I do not know how they deal with the case of the Thief on the Cross, whom Christ saved clearly by Himself alone.)..."
You cited very good examples of "plus." God by His Spirit through His Son sent Jesus to save the world, not condemn it. Who thinks they can plus, or add to that? If God doesn't do it, then who will? Yet, the plus peeps strive to ADD to that.
Yes, that Thief is a problem for them, especially if they don't believe the Bible's words and the simplicity of Jesus' words, or as Paul told us:
"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." 2 Corinthians 11:3
Will people choose the simplicity that is in Christ, or be plus about it and add?
Time will tell...
John
Because they can't all be right does not prove that you are correct. Perhaps you are as wrong as the rest of them.
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