Where would the Church of God be without its splinter group leaders? They say some of the darndest things!
Get Out of the Rabbit Hole
Scripture tells us that Jesus Christ is the Head of His Church (Colossians 1:18; Ephesians 1:22–23). And we are informed that “the church of the living God” is “the pillar and ground of the truth” (1 Timothy 3:15). Are we that Church or not? Further, God has placed His ministry within the Church to keep us unified and on track “till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ” (Ephesians 4:13–15).
Why is it that COG groups always find themselves under attack all the time? Satan is always seeking to devour them and sadly most of them seem willing to let it happen since they don't stand with confidence in the one they claim to follow.
I am not writing these comments for those who may no longer be with us, but for loyal and faithful members of the Living Church of God. Dear brethren, some of us have lived a bit longer than others. Our Council of Elders is mostly made up of men who have been around for a while, both in this life and in the Church. We have seen many conspiracies come and go. We have seen individuals become distracted, going down a rabbit hole of seemingly consistent and credible carnal ideas that appeal to them—and, sadly, as they keep going, becoming more and more convinced that what they are reading is the truth.
Brethren, because we have men on the council who have been frozen in time over the last 60 years you need to trust us in making proper decisions in 2021! Our experience demands it! Unlike you brethren, we older leaders have never been distracted, tossed to and fro, or ever have gotten caught up in conspiracy theories. Trust us on that! We are above that!
Satan uses the Internet and social media to grease that hole—and it becomes nearly impossible to extricate someone from these powerful deceptions, once they are bought into. No matter how many wise men and women try to help them, deluded people become convinced they are right as they turn themselves into poster children for this proverb: “A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; he rages against all wise judgment. A fool has no delight in understanding, but in expressing his own heart” (Proverbs 18:1–2). Stay on the Road
Someone had better get the butthurt cream for Bob Thiel! Ouch!
I have always loved how when church members wake up to the fact they have been abused or that they have been feed a bunch of doctrinal lies over the years, that they are now deluded. One thing COG leaders are good at is gaslighting their members! The members are always the dumb ones and the deluded ones, never the church leadership.
40 comments:
Oh, yes, it is written... You shall know them by their fruits... In over 60 years, all ministers worry about money and promotions.. If you don't suck up to weston boys, you aren;t going to get promoted. So just toe the party line.
Question, is Gerald's family all in lcg?
Making a choice is part of life, that is, if you choose to be a part of it. Members of any church are wise to study and prove what they are taught. Never just accept the words of another, as opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
Members must share the blame of their predicament. If you find that you have discovered a falsehood, your reaction and behavior determines your fate. Most are not serious, but others, are. One ought to take responsibility for what one has heard. A great evil/lie demands a reaction from you. While all lies are evil, so-called 'white lies do not require a serious and harsh rebuttal.
For example: If you discovered GTA having intercourse with a college student and lied about it, then you become a part of the lie by not rebuking him. Many ministers are guilty of this sin, as they kept quiet when this became an issue in the 70's.
"[LCG]'the pillar and ground of the truth'..or not?"
NOT! [Colossians 2:16-17 ; Galatians 4:9-11]
Apostle Paul vs Armstrong Legalism:
"16 So do not let anyone make rules for you about eating and drinking or about a religious feast, a New Moon Festival, or a Sabbath day. 17 These things were like a shadow of what was to come. But what is true and real has come and is found in Christ.
"So why do you turn back to those weak and useless rules .. 10 You still follow teachings about special days, months, seasons, and years. 11 I am afraid for you, that my work for you has been wasted."
The Internet and social media are sort of like the knowledge of "Good and Evil". It is an amazing constructive tool, and also a destructive one as well.
One thing is certain, oppressive and dictatorial powers do not like the free and open use of communication. It creates accountability, debate , and oversight.
Reading his comments, you'd think Weston doesn't stay abreast of LCG's own social media efforts. This could explain why Tomorrow's World still to this day promotes its Twitter feed prominently on TV and in its publications, and even on the home page of its website, but hasn't tweeted since July of last year: TW on Twitter
As usual, it's amateur hour over at LCG.
Remember, a church member is always deluded when they start thinking for themselves. Also critical thinking is inspired by Satan. LCG ministers will tell you all you need to know. And above everything else, send in your tithes and offerings. If your old, make sure and you have a will. Designate that everything goes to LCG.
Only a cult will tell you to only listen to them, trust them, and don't do your own research. They say one thing for those who are new coming into the church and then when you are there listening to the leaders they hammer on believing the leadership and NOT TO QUESTION, while they destroy people's reputations who do question and search out matters.
We turned down becoming "leaders" after witnessing how they do things and treat others. The total brainwashing of the cult mindset leaders spend more time trying to CONTROL others, condemn others, talk negatively about the members and even each other, betrayal and snitching is so common place it is disgusting... it would be better if they worked on controlling themselves.
Remember ministers and leaders it is your Example that you set and instead of trying to control people and their minds you could be the proper example and actually be Christ like and that would encourage the members more than you RULING WITH FEAR.
What Spirit are you if you are Ruling others with FEAR??? That is NOT of Jesus but rather of Satan.
Remember true character is NOT formed in Tyranny.
For God said He did Not give us a spirit of Fear but of Love, power, and of a sound mind.
The COGs are not impartial when they quote (and misapply) the following:
"A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire; he rages against all wise judgement."
"It's beautiful to be alone. To be alone does not mean to be lonely. It means the mind is not influenced and contaminated by society."
By Jiddu Krishnamurti
It's a trait of all dictatorships and cults to keep their citizens constantly busy so that they don't have the time and energy to question and reflex on their governments narrative.
Thank you, Anon 5:58, your verses are correct but your understanding is backwards.
So, will you, Anon, please not pass judgement on us who choose to follow Biblical dietary laws, Holy Days, the arrival of the month of Nisan, or on the Sabbath! Because now that we know what God requires of us, we don't want to abandon His Laws and return to pagan rituals and philosophies, and observe New Years, Valentines, Easter, Halloween, Christmas.
So, will you, Anon, please not pass judgement on us who choose to follow Biblical dietary laws, Holy Days, the arrival of the month of Nisan, or on the Sabbath!
We won't pass judgment on you. We'll just remind you of God's own judgment. Jesus said you are forgiven of ALL your sins if you accept His sacrifice. Jesus ALSO said that if you violate just one OT law, you've violated them all.
New Covenant: Your wicked heart is forgiven, along with your wicked actions.
Old Covenant: Wear a cotton-polyester blend, and you're just as damned as if you were a murderer.
The overpaid old farts in the LCG Boardroom are deemphasizing British-Israelism: They need to bring this 'essential-restored-truth' back to the preeminence it had in the 1960s. It may not scan too well with today's Millennials, but they must teach it, Herbert says so!
Jesus ALSO said that if you violate just one OT law, you've violated them all.
Doesn't that include the 10 Commandments?
Quick one, Anon 10:04, the "Old" Covenant was between God and Israel (native Israel and "grafted in"); who is the "New" Covenant between?
The conditions of the OC are in the Pentateuch, and there are lots of details. Where are the conditions of the NC? Or do you have to twist what Paul said, as Peter warned us.
unlike Armstrongic eisegesis, Christians examine all the scriptures on a topic:
Colossians 2:16-17 + Galatians 4:9-11
Bible vs Armstrong
"So do not let anyone make rules for you about eating and drinking or about a religious feast, a New Moon Festival, or a Sabbath day. These things were like a shadow of what was to come. But what is true and real has come and is found in Christ. So why do you turn back to those weak and useless rules ..You still follow teachings about special days, months, seasons, and years.."
(The Jews in Paul's time were taking it even further than Clodhopper-Herbert: Insisting on the observance of New Moons ('Months') and Sabbaticals ('Years') as well!)
“ Our Council of Elders is mostly made up of men who have been around for a while, both in this life and in the Church”
Maybe that’s why I don’t understand why one of the long time members on the council covers for at least one pedophile but possibly up to 3. It’s very blatant. Looking at you dude with the middle name Hugh. Maybe if I was their age I would understand. Actually no. I have morals.
Pedophiles in LCG is why we left not that long ago....the leadership seems to let them in and protect them that is of Satan not Jesus.
My son stopped attending any youth activities because of this.
Have I missed something? Is it a 'widespread' problem in LCG or it is just one man that was covered for? Is he involved with the youth activities?
I have sinned today. I got on the internet. The devil has gotten a hold in me. I think he is gonna win. I am not very strong today.
Jim-AZ
2:12 pm here. The person I’m talking about isn’t in charge of any youth activities. So it appears there is more than one that are a problem.
It appears to be in multiple areas including HQ...there were known Pedophiles in World Wide, Global, United, LCG, and many other splinter groups...Mr. Armstrong was a known pedophile and covered up for them. So yes it is a known problem and the leadership covers it up and puts the youth at risk. Parents need to pay attention because it is in many congregations.
PAUL
Col 2:16-17 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.
Question: Where is the Hebrew bible is stated that such are shadow of things to come?
Gal 4:4-5 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Gal 4:9-11 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years. I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.
YHVH
Psalm 119:1-176 Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the torah of YHVH! ...
Ps 19:7-11 The torah of YHVH is perfect (Heb tamim - blameless, unblemished, Strong's H8549), converting the soul; The testimony of YHVH is sure, making wise the simple; The statutes of YHVH are right, rejoicing the heart; The commandment of YHVH is pure, enlightening the eyes; The fear of YHVH is clean, enduring forever; The judgments of YHVH are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, Yea, than much fine gold; Sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them Your servant is warned, And in keeping them there is great reward.
Zech 14:1, 16 Behold, the day of YHVH is coming, and your spoil will be divided in your midst. ... And it shall come to pass that EVERYONE who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, YHVH of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
Eze 37:21-24 Then say to them, ‘Thus says Adonai YHVH: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES (Strong's H2708), AND DO THEM."
Note: What are the statutes? The word comes from a Hebrew word that appears 105 times in the Hebrew bible according to Strong's H2708 - Ex 12:14,17,43 (ordinance/statute about Passover); Ex 13:10 (DUB); Lev 3:17 (you shall not eat fat nor blood); Lev 23:21 (Pentecost); etc
Armstrongist explanations of Colossians/Galatians are deficient:
When they claim the Colossians were "being judged on how they kept these days" then these Armstrongists have a dilemma: Paul includes New Moons - but Huckster-Herbert, claiming divine authority, proclaimed New Moon observance unnecessary (though some modern Armstrongist subcults observe them!) Confusing? Yes. That's why they call the uneducated-clodhopper-turned-religious-Pied-Piper 'Mr Confusion'
1.20 PM and 2.12 PM
Protect the wicked in the church and persecute the righteous has always been the WWCG and its splinters way.
Some comments here seem to be tossing around an old conundrum - is Paul telling his Gentile converts, who were once idol-worshiping pagans, not to "go back to" "Jewish" Laws, or go back to their old pagan practices?
Galatians comments also must consider Gentiles who had gone through ritual conversion to Judaism (as some did) had to agree to keep both the written and "Oral Law" (aka Traditions of the Elders). So for them, "all the Law" includes a lot of "customs".
Trypho (Have you named yourself after the Syrian tyrant Trypho Diodotus?):
You wrote, "So, will you, Anon, please not pass judgement on us who choose to follow Biblical dietary laws, Holy Days, the arrival of the month of Nisan, or on the Sabbath!"
There is absolutely no problem with your using Judaic customers to make your liturgy distinct. Do it all you want. The problem arises when you claim that observing these customs is required for salvation and teach that to other people. That is the point at which you depart from the NT and Paul says that Jesus is no longer of any use to you.
You wrote, "Because now that we know what God requires of us, we don't want to abandon His Laws and return to pagan rituals and philosophies, and observe New Years, Valentines, Easter, Halloween, Christmas."
God requires you to enter into the NT. Armstrong/Hoeh require of you to keep certain portions of the OT. But Paul says the OT is an integrated whole - you can't just keep part of it. If you really want to be a Pauline purist instead of an Armstrong/Hoeh liberal, avoid pre- and post-Christmas sales, for examle. They are all a part of the season. And make that little house in your backyard for the confinement of menstruating females in your family. See how that goes over. That would only be the beginning of a full OT implementation in your life.
You wrote, "Doesn't that include the 10 Commandments?"
The Sabbath in the NT is in Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath. He is our rest from sin always. This is territory that has been covered thoroughly over the past 25 years, since the dissolution of the WCG, in the dialogue between Ex-Armstrongists and Armstrongists.
You wrote, "Where are the conditions of the NC?"
Principally in the Sermon on the Mount. And throughout. This has to be the oddest contention of Galatianizers that there are no conditions in the NT. There are only conditions in the OT, therefore we necessarily have to observe the OT or there would be nothing for us to do. This is a denial of the words of Christ, who is the Word of God, and his example which is the Word of God in action. He conclusively fulfilled the OT in his lifetime and chartered the future under the NT in the Sermon on the Mount.
It is interesting that you have phrased your declarations as questions. I think you may be starting to question Armstrongism. The answers to your questions have been out there a long time in the dialog between Christians and Armstrongists. I have only given brief responses and it behooves you to research these topics. People awaken at different times and under different conditions. When I began to understand Christianity and began to awaken from a long slumber in the Armstrongist night, it was much like Rip Van Winkle waking up.
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NEO - not Trypho the tyrant, but Trypho the Jew, as in Justin Martyr's "Dialogue With Trypho".
A question, a question, yes, as asked by Anon 7:10? Interesting, I heard a Protestant pastor claim that when Jesus said, "It is finished" He meant all the OT Laws except for the ones his church taught - 9 of the 10 commandments, and anything Paul said that he liked, and a bissel of OT Laws he hadn't broken but others had. How does that sound to you?
And there is the way Armstrongism chooses what to observe, largely based on which books in the Portland Public Library he agreed with? Or the methods used by Dr. Bob Thiel? What schmegegge!
"Paul said that he liked, and a bissel of OT Laws he hadn't broken but others had."
Den Satz oben habe ich nicht verstanden. Vielleicht, könnten Sie ihn wiederholen, wenn ich Ihnen eine unrechte Antwort geben. Ich vermute daß Sie Jüdisch-Deutsch sprechen.
Paul was a Jew, in fact, a Pharisee. Early on, he did not know what a Christian was. He did not have a copy of the New Testament. I would guess that he regarded his NT beliefs to be an extension of Late Second Temple Judaism. He was observant of manner and custom in circa First Century Judea. What he did not believe is that the OT customs (formerly laws) were the cause of salvation. These OT laws were transformed into cultural distinctives by the implementation of the NT. The vital legal principle behind the OT was instantiated in a different form by the NT. My guess is that Paul may have continued some of his Judaic practice throughout his life without it ever becoming entangled in the soteriology of Christianity.
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NEO, I just threw in a schtickle of Yiddish. When I said "Oy vey!" to Alexa, it was interpreted as "Oh, hey!"
"Early on he (Paul) did not know what a Christian was". The term Christian is first recorded after Saul had accepted Jesus as Messiah (Christ). In his early days, he knew they were Jews who were followers of Jesus; for support in his persecution, he, a Pharisee, used the authority of the Sadducees, as they did not believe in the resurrection or eternal life.
This has really gone off topic, having nothing to do with Satan running internet social media. And then Bob Thiel laments getting his vibrant vital videos bounced off YouTube...
Time to close down for Shabbat! Shalom!
Council of Elders....a group of "yes" men who sit around a big table and talk about the same topics over and over and over and over again because they God hasn't revealed anything to them in years. Oh, and there is Rick Stafford who (on video) stands up and says that JC would be all for social justice and who meet in a hall that flies the rainbow flag above it. Glad to know that JC is for rainbow flags, the LGBT community and social justice.
"16 So do not let anyone make rules for you about eating and drinking or about a religious feast, a New Moon Festival, or a Sabbath day. 17 These things were like a shadow of what was to come. But what is true and real has come and is found in Christ.
V 16 The Greek clearly says don't let anyone "judge" you. It doesn't say you don't need to keep these things. It doesn't say keeping them is wrong. Rather, Paul is saying "When you keep these things, don't let anyone stand in judgment of you. You know what's right, don't be intimidated."
V 17 all of the translations use the words "are a shadow" not "were like a shadow" and "things to come". Your have twisted the scriptures to deceive. Just examine the Greek. Plus, Paul said this in AD 62 with a reference of things yet to come. The Holy Days are prophetic and illustrate things yet to come... for example the return of Christ, the Great White Throne Judgment, etc. The Holy Days are much more significant to the Christian than they ever were for the Jew.
Hebrews 7:12 For when the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed also.
The poor COGlodytes have been fed carefully crafted instruction on old covenant laws and no information on how radically different the New Covenant is (Hebrews 8:9). They don't get much information about Jesus and they are brainwashed not to care much about his priesthood and what has changed, regarding law.
The COGlodytes cling to the words of Jesus regarding not one jot or tittle of the law will change until all is finished. They insist that this means the law is still in force. Yet, incoherently they do acknowledge that circumcision was a law that is now forbidden to be commanded. Cicumcision was a commanded sign of the Old Covenant (Genesis 17:11) - the covenant that is now obsolete (Hebrews 8:13)
The insular COGlodytes swallow Herbie's lies crafted around the theme that not much information exists about the Church in the first century. Such complete brainwashing allows them to read over the scriptures about how Jewish converts to Christianity attempted to push Old Covenant law onto Gentile converts. The Apostles' fight against "Judaizing" is also recorded in early Church history.
St. Paul described the COGs perfectly in Galatians 5:13 - Not even those who are circumcised keep the law, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast about your circumcision in the flesh. However, The COGs would never, unlike St. Paul, boast in the Cross of Jesus, as he wrote in Galatians 5:14 - May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.
An LCG member has repeatedly told me that Spanky's favorite book of the Bible was Galatians. It's sad that Spanky never got to enjoy the book in the light of the New Covenant, as the Holy Word of the all-sufficient High Priest. Instead, the COGlodytes contort the word of Galatians to support their preference for the shadowy law over Savior Jesus. The COGs are indeed alienated from Jesus and have fallen from grace as stated in Galatians 5:4 due to their reliance on the law.
The GOGs reject the liberty spoken of in Galatians 5:13 and suffer a lack of love, along with and basic understanding of word “fulfilled” (Galatians 5:14).
Change of Priesthood? Why are there still unfulfilled prophecies of a future Temple and restoration of the Aaronic Priesthood and sacrifices?
Isa 66:19b-24 "And they shall declare My glory among the gentiles. Then they shall bring ALL YOUR BRETHREN for an offering to YHVH out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says YHVH, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of YHVH. And I will also take some of them for PRIESTS AND LEVITES,” says YHVH. “For as the new heavens and the new earth which I will make shall remain before Me,” says YHVH, “So shall your descendants and your name remain. And it shall come to pass that FROM ONE NEW MOON TO ANOTHER, AND FROM ONE SABBATH TO ANOTHER, ALL FLESH SHALL COME TO WORSHIP BEFORE ME,” says YHVH. “And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.”
Note: The above verses speak of the future ingathering of the Israelite exiles. From these returning exiles, YHVH will select/identify who are the real priests and levites (v21). The exiles lost their identity - national and tribal.
Eze 44:10-16 And the Levites who went far from Me, when Israel went astray, who strayed away from Me after their idols, they shall bear their iniquity. ... And they shall not come near Me to minister to Me as priest, nor come near any of My holy things, nor into the Most Holy Place; but they shall bear their shame and their abominations which they have committed. Nevertheless I will make them keep charge of the temple, for all its work, and for all that has to be done in it. But the priests, the Levites, the SONS OF ZADOK, who kept charge of My sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from Me, they shall come near Me to minister to Me; and they shall stand before Me to offer to Me the fat and the blood,” says Adonai YHVH. “They shall enter My sanctuary, and they shall come near My table to minister to Me, and they shall keep My charge."
Note: In the future Temple, not all sons of Aaron will function as priests. Only the SONS OF ZADOK will come near to YHVH. The sons of Zadok were known in Greek as Sadducees, not to be confused with the Sadducees in the NT which were appointed priests by Herod. Eze 40:45-46 describes two chambers for the priests - one of which is for the sons of Zadok only.
Jer 33:17-22 “For thus says YHVH: ‘David shall never lack a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel; nor shall the priests, the Levites, lack a man to offer burnt offerings before Me, to kindle grain offerings, and to sacrifice continually.’" And the word of YHVH came to Jeremiah, saying, “Thus says YHVH: ‘If you can break My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that there will not be day and night in their season, then My covenant may also be broken with David My servant, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and with the Levites, the priests, My ministers. As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.’ ”
Covenant now obsolete?
According to Heb 8:13, the Sinai covenant was made obsolete. In stark contrast to this, Tanakh states in Ps 111:7-8, The works of His hands are verity and justice; all His precepts are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness. Also in Isa 40:8, "The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God stands forever.”
Compare Heb 8:8-12 with Jer 31:31-34. In Heb 8:9b it says 'because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them'. Contrast this with Jer 31:32b, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them. Which one is the word of God? God gave impossible conditions for Him to disregard the children of Israel - Jer 31:35-37. Have those ordinances departed from God? Can the heaven above be measured? Can the foundations of the earth be searched out beneath?
What if Israel continues in its sins? Lev 26:14-17 If they disobey God, … . Lev 26:18-20, If they continue sinning, God will punish them 7 times more. Lev 26:21-22, If still … 7 times more plagues. Lev 26:23-26, If still … 7 times. Lev 26:27-39, If still … 7 times more. Lev 26:40-43, But if they confess … GOD WILL REMEMBER HIS COVENANT WITH JACOB …
Lev 26:44-45, Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I WILL NOT CAST THEM AWAY, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them AND BREAK MY COVENANT WITH THEM; for I am YHVH their God. But for their sake I WILL REMEMBER THE COVENANT OF THEIR ANCESTORS, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am YHVH.’ ”
God remembers, fulfills, and blesses despite the Israelites breaking their covenant. Is that your primary point? Is another point that the Sinai law is still in effect through a very literal explanation of the text. Perhaps, it is more figurative meaning following God. For Isaiah following God meant doing the Sinai covenant and perhaps this is the way he knew best to explain it. Inspired language doesn’t have to be strictly literal.
Matthew writes those that say “Jesus is Lord” are saved. It seems the Cogs don’t like that literal interpretation though.
Earl said, God remembers, fulfills, and blesses despite the Israelites breaking their covenant. Is that your primary point?
No. Leviticus 26 contradicts your opening statement. Sin has consequence. Continuing in sin increases the punishment 7 times/fold. Even if Israel is unfaithful, YHVH is faithful. Even if Israel breaks the Covenant, YHVH establishes His Covenant:
Lev 26:9 (KJV), "For I will have respect unto you, and make you fruitful, and multiply you, and establish my covenant with you."
Lev 26:14-17, If they disobey God, … .
Lev 26:18-20, If they continue sinning, God will punish them 7 times more.
Lev 26:21-22, If still … 7 times more plagues.
Lev 26:23-26, If still … 7 times.
Lev 26:27-39, If still … 7 times more.
Lev 26:40-42, "BUT IF THEY CONFESS THEIR INIQUITY and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me, and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies; IF their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt— THEN I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember; I will remember the land."
Jer 31:35-37, Thus says YHVH, who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (YHVH of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart from before Me", says YHVH, "then the seed of Israel shall also cease trom being a nation before Me forever.” Thus says YHVH: “If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done", says YHVH.
Earl, YHVH requires repentance. Contrast this with your last paragraph - mere saying JIL and the person is saved …
Earl said, Is another point that the Sinai law is still in effect through a very literal explanation of the text. Perhaps, it is more figurative meaning following God.
I don't know how can there be figurative meaning in
1. Zech 14:16 - going up to Jerusalem and keeping the FOT:
2. Eze 37:24 - "…they shall also walk in My judgments AND OBSERVE MY STATUTES (Strong's H2708), AND DO THEM.". What would be the figurative meaning of statutes - Passover, DUB, etc?
3. Isa 66 - all flesh shall come to worship YHVH from one new moon to another, from one Sabbath to another
4. Isa 56:3-8 - "…I will bring them to My holy mountain and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My altar, for My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations.” One can argue that the burnt offerings and sacrifices are figurative, BUT is YHVH's house also figurative? Is this someting in each person's heart? I don't think so. The Temple in Ezekiel is very descriptive for it to be a figurative house of YHVH. A physical Temple entails sacrifices.
Eze 11:14-21, Again the word of YHVH came to me, saying, “Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, are those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, ‘Get far away from YHVH; this land has been given to us as a possession.’ Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Adonai YHVH “Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone.” ’ Therefore say, ‘Thus says the Adonai YHVH: “I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel.” ’ And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there. Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God. But as for those whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads,” says the Adonai YHVH.
Why would they be given a heart of flesh? So that they can do statutes and judgments of God. How can statutes be figurative?
Cuting a Covenant
Jer 34:18, And I will give the men who have transgressed My covenant, who have not performed the words of the covenant which they made before Me, when they cut the calf in two and passed between the parts of it—
I mentioned the above verse to highlight the permanence of YHVH's covenant. Do you remember where else is a covenant made with cutting in half an animal?
Gen 15:9-10, So He said to him, “Bring Me a three-year-old heifer, a three-year-old female goat, a three-year-old ram, a turtledove, and a young pigeon.” Then he brought all these to Him and cut them in two, down the middle, and placed each piece opposite the other; but he did not cut the birds in two.
Gen 15:17-18, And it came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day YHVH made (Heb karath meaning to cut, H3772) a covenant with Abram, …
Can the animals that were cut be uncut, or put back together? No. So with the covenant, what YHVH made cannot be unbroken. When YHVH 'cut' a covenant, it cannot be 'uncut'.
Correction to my statement "So with the covenant, what YHVH made cannot be unbroken.".
It should have been, "So with the covenant, what YHVH made cannot be BROKEN."
To the person posting on June 2,
Interesting views; do you reject the entire new covenant?
Does the same go for Jesus and the new testament?
Do you belong to a COG that only deals with the old covenant - or are these your private views?
Anon June 2 @7:34pm,
I believe in the New Covenant, the one in Jeremiah 31, not Hebrews 8. The discrepancy led me to check other NT claims against Tanakh which takes preeminence for me. YHVH is the only God in Tanakh, and there is no other. Although most of what I post come from Jewish sources - Orthodox and Karaites, I have no plans on attending any synagogue. Lost interest in joining any religious org. I'm striving to be like the foreigner in Isaiah 56.
I hope these answers your questions. Below is just a long version ...
Comparing Jer 31:31-34 and Heb 8:8b-12. Where the thoughts are similar, I've used '==' and wrote the verse from Jeremiah. If the verses are different, I've used '!='.
Jer 31:31 == Heb 8:8b --> "Behold, the days are coming", says YHVH, "when I will make a new covenant with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL and with the HOUSE OF JUDAH -"
Jer 31:32a == Heb 8:9a --> "not according to the covenant that I made WITH THEIR FATHERS in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke,"
Jer 31:32b != Heb 8:9b
Jer 31:32b, "though I was a husband to them, says YHVH"
Heb 8:9b, "and I disregarded them, says the Lord."
Jer 31:33 == Heb 8:10 --> "But this is the covenant that I will make with the HOUSE OF ISRAEL after those days, says YHVH: I will put My TORAH in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
Jer 31:34 == Heb 8:11-12 --> (NLT) "AND they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their relatives, saying, ‘You should know YHVH.’ For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will know me already,” says YHVH. “And I will forgive their wickedness, and I will never again remember their sins.”
Notice that only in Jer 31:32b and Heb 8:9b do they differ. Majority of the parallel versions (click here) of Jer 31:32b follow the Tanakh/Masoretic Text. A few - Brenton, Aramaic English and New Heart, used the Septuagint (LXX), which was also used in the book of Hebrews. The problem with the LXX version is that it contradicts its own version of Jer 31:35-37. Here's the Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Jer 31:32b (38:32b), "and I disregarded them, saith the Lord. "
Jer 31:35-37 (38:35-37), "Thus saith the Lord, who gives the sun for a light by day, the moon and the stars for a light by night, and makes a roaring in the sea, so that the waves thereof roar; the Lord Almighty is his name: if these ordinances cease from before me, saith the Lord, then shall the family of Israel cease to be a nation before me forever. Though the sky should be raised to a greater height, saith the Lord, and though the ground of the earth should be sunk lower beneath, yet I will not cast off the family of Israel, saith the Lord, for all that they have done.
cont ...
Excluded From the New Covenant(?)
Although I believe in the future New Covenant (Jer 31:34), I understand that I'm excluded because of 2 reasons:
1. It explicitly states that it is between YHVH and the houses of Israel and Judah (Jer 31:31).
2. I'm 99.9999% sure that I do not have an ancestor who participated in the Sinai Covenant (Jer 31:32). Ancestry is physical, not spiritual.
Do I feel left out? No. Anyone can convert to Judaism (Esther 8:17) - Orthodox (with Oral Law) or Karaite (without). It's difficult being a Jew. They face discrimination, hatred, etc. Extemist Moslems want them dead. Extremist Christians believe they are going to hell. Most Christians think they do not know their own language, bible and God.
There are passages in Tanakh, such as Isa 56, that discuss the blessings that will come to non-Jews/non-Israelites who join themselves to YHVH.
Zech 8:3, 20-23 “Thus says YHVH: ‘I will return to Zion, and dwell in the midst of Jerusalem. Jerusalem shall be called the City of Truth, The Mountain of YHVH of hosts, The Holy Mountain.’ ... “Thus says YHVH of hosts: ‘Peoples shall yet come, inhabitants of many cities; the inhabitants of one city shall go to another, saying, “Let us continue to go and pray before YHVH, and seek YHVH of hosts. I myself will go also.” Yes, many peoples and strong nations shall come to seek YHVH of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before YHVH.’ “Thus says YHVH of hosts: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.” ’ ” (Note: see Ex 19:6)
YHVH's Altar (Temple?) in Egypt
Isa 19:19-25 In that day there will be an altar to YHVH in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to YHVH at its border. And it will be for a sign and for a witness to YHVH of hosts in the land of Egypt; ... In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian will come into Egypt and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians will serve with the Assyrians. In that day Israel will be one of three with Egypt and Assyria—a blessing in the midst of the land, whom YHVH of hosts shall bless, saying, “Blessed is Egypt My people, and Assyria the work of My hands, and Israel My inheritance.”
Note: The Jews who built the Temple in Elephantine probably thought they were fulfilling Isa 19:19.
God Will Remember Israel
Ex 4:22, Then you shall say to Pharaoh, ‘Thus says the YHVH: “Israel is My son, My firstborn."
Isa 49:13, Sing, O heavens! Be joyful, O earth! And break out in singing, O mountains! For YHVH has comforted His people, and will have mercy on His afflicted.
Isa 49:14, But Zion said, “YHVH has forsaken me, and my Adonai has forgotten me.”
Isa 49:15-16 [YHVH's response], “Can a woman forget her nursing child, And not have compassion on the son of her womb? Surely they may forget, Yet I will not forget you. See, I HAVE INSCRIBED YOU ON THE PALMS OF MY HANDS ...
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