Join host Dawn Blue as she interviews a former member/employee of The Restored Church of God, headed up by David Pack who calls himself Christ's apostle. Its origins stem from Herbert Armstrong’s controversial Worldwide Church of God.
Answering questions posed by the locals & around the globe.
Part 2: Diving deeper into The Restored Church of God's invention of "Common". Allowing the church to make substantial economic gains & still not disclosing financial records to its members. We also discuss David Pack being a self-proclaimed Apostle & the impact of his doomsday preaching.
31 comments:
Outstanding Mark! That is truly "how it is done".
At the end of the day, God has one true church here on earth (Matthew 16:18) to which Christ will return to (Mal 3:1) and so far the Restored Church of God meets the biblical criteria. The fact that Mr. Pack is setting dates on the prophecy series is totally inspired by God. It is a test to flush out the scoffers who are prophesied in 2 Peter 3:3-4 to come --> Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.
How else would scoffers rise except there is a timing issue that plays out for a protracted period of time to create the suitable condition! Mr. Pack is on track with prophecy!!!
Wow, down from 3500 to 1500!
The post-Armstrongic revivalist cults are a spectacular failure
~~1500 supporters is not even enough to keep the doors open~~
..well they could keep it going a little longer if they throw all their life's savings at it..
---oops,that card has already been played!
I found it interesting listening to Marc, but his diplomatic nature doesn't convey the ruin and suffering of Daves' victims.
Dave has joined Satan in destroying the spiritually weak. Members have lost their eternal lives. It's a horror show.
Should we fear Dave pack? That question should be at the front of the mind of those present within the organization as well as those that have departed and the greater Wadsworth community should take note and embrace the potential.
Dave Pack's own words and prophetic view of himself provide enough facts to create potential. With his pronouncement that there "will have to be a worldwide announcement of just who I am", that statement provides the parameter of what he thinks is possible.
With his belief and statement that he will be shortly embued with "exsousia", enough of this special power that he can take on any enemy including the Man of Sin, is the avenue to proceed forth with violence.
If according to his own words, everyone who has ever gone against him has either died or become severely incapacitated, a target has been identified clearly in his mind.
The future action against these "enemies" has already been established. Dave Pack in his own words has said that he and six of his fellows will go forth and kill 7 million gentiles and 2.5 million Jews by the edge of the sword, the enemies in his way to establishing a kingdom.
Should we fear? We should fear the potential of any person or entity that is a self declared terrorist organization on that basis alone.
Factoring in the fruits of the man, his total wreckage perpetrated both physically and spiritually against his own membership and a belief on my behalf based upon a three hour period in his presence at headquarters when I attended the Feast there, I easily came to the conclusion that the man is truly demon possessed.
So now you have to ask yourself, are we wary to what an aging self delusional man living behind a gate could potentially perpetrate or do we with heightened awareness and understanding fully know exactly what the Devil is capable of and wanting to do?
Anyhow Mark, stay safe - because you are now clearly identified as a enemy of the Restored Church of God.
If you think I could be of any help to you let me know.
WATT
Why be afraid of David C. Pack?
Deuteronomy 18:20-22
"But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him."
Why should anyone be afraid of David Pack? His prophecies, the many dozens, have all failed. To say, as the scripture does, that he’s presumptuous is inadequate. The man is wicked.
Great work, and nicely balanced.
Several years have passed now, but when Ron Weinland began making time and date stamped predictions about the return of Jesus Christ, and making extreme financial demands on his followers, there was a blog on which we had an opportunity to interact directly with those followers, and those who had decided that they had had enough, left, and were anxious to discuss their experiences. Some who were remaining for various reasons also presented their views. As Mark has described the RCG members, these were all good people, well-intentioned, many wrestling with matters of comscience and hurting deep inside.
I had posted on that blog that I couldn't imagine what it must be like to hear their apostle assure them that in three weeks Jesus Christ would be returning, and to be trusting that and taking it very seriously, getting up each morning really looking forward to it, caring about nothing other than that, only to have that supreme bubble burst. Some commented that my words had somehow captured their angst, because that was exactly what they had gone through each time Ron had made his forecasts. Many had made financial decisions based on the unrequited prophecies, and were suffering various consequences.
If there is a silver lining, it is that false prophecy eventually takes its toll. Gradually, it becomes recognized as a failure, as being a disconnect from God, and people do leave. Because of the pressures of doctrine and the perception of authority, these long suffering people have gone way beyond the old fool me once, fool me twice adage. Weinland had had to contend with a shrinking following, and quite frankly, he was not machine-gunning the false prophecies with the rapidity and intensity now being employed by David Pack. So, with each failed event, more followers get a clue and do leave.
We were taught as WCG members, back in the days when HWA was OG, that because we "obeyed God" (kept the picked and chosen elements which HWA taught us were the correct ways of obeying and showing love for God), that God revealed His end-time prophecies to us and to no other churches or leaders. That has proven not to be true for decades now, a fact which reflects very poorly upon the correctness and effectiveness of the classic WCG doctrines. How many times and in how many settings do these need to be tested before people recognize it as a complete failure? Leading up to 1975, the first large scale test had the church growing by leaps and bounds. Although HWA lead his people through a rebound and further growth, he died without leading the people into the place of safety and preparing them for the return of Jesus Christ. He became a Bernie Madoff type, and those who have since attempted to perpetuate the scam have been met with vastly diminished returns. Religious scams die out as they fail just as other types of scams. So that is the good news. Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, new scams will continue to develop.
The interpretation of Jesus' Olivet discourse, which has led people to believe that the timeline for the end is linked to the rebirth of Israel as a nation and "that generation shall not pass" being linked to the baby boomers, is now in its final testing stages as the boomers are following the WW-II generation in their passing. Remember, that WW-II gen was the original benchmark used by HWA, and that was revised to the baby boomers as it became obvious that the original had failed. When the boomers are gone, there is no generation which can be substituted. The drug of Armstrongism has been a very devastating drug for those who partook. As Frank Zappa used to say about methamphetamine, "Rot your kidneys, rot your brain, rot your heart. Cucaracha!!!"
From https://carm.org/questions/are-there-apostles-for-today/
Biblically, an apostle was someone who was involved with Jesus and/or knew of Jesus before his crucifixion and after his crucifixion. Consider the following two sets of verses.
“It is, therefore, necessary that of the men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— 22 beginning with the baptism of John, until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these should become a witness with us of His resurrection. 23 And they put forward two men, Joseph called Barsabbas (who was also called Justus), and Matthias. 24 And they prayed, and said, You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen 25 to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place. 26 And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell to Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles,” (Acts 1:21-26).
“Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?” (1 Cor. 9:1).
Notice that in Acts when the apostles are deciding on a replacement for Judas, Peter speaks of the necessity of someone who had been with Christ from the beginning.
In 1 Corinthians Paul defends his apostleship by claiming to have seen the risen Lord. Therefore, we can conclude biblically that a true apostle in the New Testament style is no longer possible because it would require that the person had been with Christ and/or have seen the risen Lord.
WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH at 7:02:00 AM said...“Factoring in the fruits of the man, his total wreckage perpetrated both physically and spiritually against his own membership and a belief on my behalf based upon a three hour period in his presence at headquarters when I attended the Feast there, I easily came to the conclusion that the man is truly demon possessed.”
Personally, I suspect that Satan himself/herself/itself has possessed David Pack, rather than leave this important job of extreme deception, heartbreaking cruelty, and utter devastation up to the demons.
My suspicion is that Satan lives in Gerald Flurry's head, but also has a sort of home away from home spot in David Pack's head too. Multiple residences. Of course, Satan might invite over legions of demons to visit and to “take care” of the place while he is away in one of his other major false prophet's heads. This could perfectly explain the behavior of these guys.
Gerald R. Flurry (“That Runt”) and David C. Pack (the “common” thief) are two of the very worst false prophets that Satan has ever sent AGAINST former Worldwide Church of God people.
Lets not forget that Pack was predicting , and hoping for, the DEATH of 3 other COG leaders probably by FIRE!
Supposedly, afterwards , the COG membership would rally around him and come to his compound.
This man is a sociopath, mentally unstable, has a long history of being abusinve to the brethren , and should have been tossed out on his ear A LONG TIME AGO. Here from AR 32 in 1985...
David Pack's Reign of Terror
On the night of Roxanne Elliott's death, one of the last people - probably the very last one - Lois Elliott phoned before the tragedy was WCG minister David Pack, pastor of the Buffalo (North), New York congregation.. Exactly what was said, we don't know. At least not yet. That information may well come out should Lois Elliott ever recover sufficiently to stand trial. What is remarkable, however, is how often Pack's name seems to appear in conjunction with tragedies in the WCG. For a number of years now, no WCG minister's name has appeared more often in letters written to the Report complaining of ministerial abuse.
Pack, a burly 6-foot, 5-inch Ambassador College graduate known locally for his authoritarian style, has so incensed some in his flock that a group have circulated an open letter detailing his abuses and have called for his removal. The letter describes Pack's ministerial leadership as a "Reign of Terror." On the cover page, addressed to WCG headquarters leaders, they wrote: "David's power-crazed quest to totally dominate the mind, body, and spirit of church members has not been done in a corner and has been done clearly in view of all to see at headquarters in Pasadena."
On the following 13 pages of their letter the allegations about Pack read like a horror story. The authors contend that Pack constantly intimidates members, uses threats and mind-control methods, is given to extreme emotional outbursts, is highly political, believes in winning at all cost, has disfellowshipped members for trivial faults, prescribes diets while "playing M.D.," insists on being addressed as Mr. Pack, enjoys wearing skimpy, skin-tight shorts to sporting events, has actually worn a wolf costume to church socials, enjoys putting down women, and told one married woman with children, "It would be better for you to shack up one night with a man than wear makeup."
The letter quotes Pack as having said, "Everyone who has challenged me has either died, been seriously injured or has been eliminated from the work." And, "God backs me even if I am wrong."
On page 7 the authors made this statement to Pack (emphasis ours):
Doesn't it bother you that while you were in charge of the Rochester and Syracuse area there were three suicides? One can only wonder why they chose to kill themselves while you were their main advisor in the area. Perhaps you suggested to one or more of them that they would in no way make it into the Kingdom of God.... A statement such as, "You are no longer in the body of Christ," could have caused one to give up and kill himself.
Well Done! You nailed it, Marc Cebrian! And thank you, Dawn Blue!
Most effective was reading from the now discontinued booklet, "Is THAT PROPHET Alive today?" by David C. Pack which condemns Pack using his own written words. Reference minute markers 33.00 - 36.00 in the video. How can anyone now believe this lying fraud after hearing these words which Pack himself wrote?
It appears "Is THAT PROPHET Alive today" booklet is to the Restored Church of God what the "1975 in Prophecy" booklet was to the Radio/Worldwide Church of God. Both booklets discontinued and out of circulation. Were they not inspired truth by God's servants? If they were inspired, then why discontinue them?
The true Armstrongist believes God restored all things to the Church of God through Herbert W. Armstrong. Remember the 18 restored truths? We didn't see Pack's Communist Common doctrine listed as one of the 18 restored truths. As stated in my last post (Part 1 of this presentation), the Common doctrine was NOT taught by Herbert Armstrong nor practiced in the parent Worldwide Church of God nor by the grandparent Church of God, Seventh Day. This is a Pack doctrinal creation. And Marc nails it. Herbert Armstrong achieved economies of scale through the tithes/offerings on the incomes of 100,000+ members. Pack, on the other hand, only has 1,500 members and no way to achieve economies of scale and critical mass. So, in addition to tithing on income which most members of the parent Worldwide Church are accustomed to doing, Pack grabs the assets of the members accumulated wealth/life savings which they saved from their "after tithed/taxed income". It is no different than what the American Marxists in the Democrat Communist Party are proposing to do with their "wealth tax". Sooner or later, it will trickle down to everyone as we all know.
In fact, I thank Tonto for reaching into the Ambassador Report archives. I had forgotten about this negative report of Dave Pack as a Pastor in the WCG. What is described in this Ambassador Report is a mindset of a sociopath one would liken to a Communist dictator - a Lenin or a Stalin.
Richard
Thank you Marc, what you doing is great.
Dave Pack calls his doctrine “COMMON,” but the money does not get distributed to everyone as they have need like in Acts 4:32-35. It all goes to Dave Pack and his needs and wants. Dave's version, or perversion, should be called “PRIVATE” because it all becomes Dave's private stash of cash. Dave likes to share his noise, nonsense, and wrong prophetic date guesses. He does NOT like to share his own private cash that he got from everyone else. Everyone else GIVES and Dave GETS.
9.04 AM
I don't agree. Claiming that a person can only be an apostle if they had been with Christ amounts to limiting God's power. For example, Samuel didn't have face to face dealings with Christ.
Again thanks Tonto for quoting the Ambassador report on Dave. However ministers like Dave don't exist in a vacuum. Dave got away behaving like a tyrant because it was sanctioned by HQ. Dave knew that it was the social system approved by HWA. It amounts to putting ones trust in bully morality rather than biblical morality.
Btw, my first minister demanded that I come to his home for a "counseling session" during which he tried to convince me to let him possess me. He never used those words, but it was obvious. And he knew that he had HQs secret blessing in doing so.
Like I keep posting, there's no way that HWA will be in the kingdom. His followers who use deceitful optics to deify the man, have a lot to answer for.
At 3:24 am. If you truly believe that Davie boy is right on track with his prophecies, I have a bridge for sale in Brooklyn that might interest you. Seriously, TC, get a bible. Read it yourself. Don't let some man tell you what it says and what it means. That is a function of the Holy Spirit. How will you answer God when he asks you why you farmed out your salvation to someone else? It is the individual's own personal responsibility to study the scriptures ourselves and if there are passages we don't understand, keep at it. Eventually, it all clicks into place; often when we least expect it. Years and years of not grasping the meaning of a passage will suddenly click and you get it! A good bible concordance is the only other book you need. None of these wrong and poorly written booklets are going to save you. God already wrote THE book. Any other books or booklets written by these men or Ellen G. White or Watchtower will guide you into all truth. Only one will and it doesn't need editing or updating or tweaking. It is God breathed and Holy Spirit inspired and the inerrant word of God. These men are erring, mortal sinners. God is not. Never ever ever let any man come between you and your relationship with Jesus. Every last one of these horrible, horrible, poorly spoken, poorly written and poorly educated men will reap exactly what they have sewn. I would not want the eternities of Pack, Flurry, Weinland or Thiel for anything in the universe. I have a picture in my mind of Flurry having his rear end crazy glued to HWA'S pet rock forever, Weinland and Pack having their lips glued to millions of Benjamin's and no where to spend it (no gift shop in hell) and Thiel's lips glued shut once and for all. You're welcome Mrs. T. Oh and Gerald Waterhouse's lips on HWA'S ample hind quarters. I have never seen so much man worship in my life. They all worship HWA, money and themselves more than the God they should be worshipping.
"For example, Samuel didn't have face to face dealings with Christ."
Um...Samuel was not an apostle. He is considered a prophet. Two different things in reality, but not so much in Armstrongism. This is why we have so many apostles and prophets making asses of themselves today in the COG.
There are only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ - Rev 21:14. I have determined HWA, Dave Pack, and others who have called themselves apostles of Jesus Christ are liars - Rev 2:2.
Thank you Marc. I was in RCG also, I left by part # 7 of the story never told. I rejected that teaching .In one heart beat got rejected by the whole Church (well you know what I mean). I hope you are doing well with everything you went through. I appreciated your interview. It was very well done.
I'm going to find it very interesting to see what results this triggers in RCG. When you have a situation in which people must certainly realize that something is terribly wrong in their rudderless, prophecy-based church, will this well-reasoned message become the final tipping point which causes big numbers of members to move to safer, more secure ground? Stereotypical behavior throughout the past would indicate that most will simply dismiss Mark and Dawn's efforts as an attack upon God's work by Satan the devil. The nagging question with which they will need to deal in that dismissal is when has Satan ever attacked with such restraint? That is what really distinguishes this from so many events of the past.
I guess it all depends upon how bad members perceive their daily lives as members of RCG. That will determine whether individual members restrict their knowledge of this interview to a superficial level, just knowing that it happened, or decide that they need to examine the details of what has been presented, and avidly watch it, becoming engaged.
Pack and those in Wadsworth HQ are very much aware of these interviews and they are NOT happy. They see it as an attack by Satan, but many are paying close attention to what is being said. Pack is going to lose more members over this.
Thank you to those who have watched these interviews. I greatly appreciate the support and encouragement I have received. Even the criticisms from Part 1 on this blog...I took it to heart and hope you noticed.
Anonymous 1:01 AM - If you have more "inside baseball" to share, please contact me at mcebrian71@gmail.com. I will keep you anonymous.
Anonymous at 12:10:00 AM PDT said...“Stereotypical behavior throughout the past would indicate that most will simply dismiss Mark and Dawn's efforts as an attack upon God's work by Satan the devil.”
Anonymous at 1:01:00 AM PDT said...“Pack and those in Wadsworth HQ are very much aware of these interviews and they are NOT happy. They see it as an attack by Satan, but many are paying close attention to what is being said.”
ATTACK BY SATAN
WARNING: David Pack and his RCG cult ARE the attack by Satan the Devil AGAINST former Worldwide Church of God people.
The Rorschach Theory
The Bible is a "handle with care" product. It does not yield to the presumptuous simplicity of a "read it and do it" approach. Some people approach the Bible with great egocentricity for whatever reasons. They crack open the book and look for themselves in its pages. And they see what they want to see. I believe that HWA and his successors of type have all found themselves in the pages of the Bible. And, lo and behold, they are Apostles and Prophets and other self-styled great leaders of vision. They found in its pages what they wanted to find about themselves and where they fit in reality. And, as one would expect, their belief in the Bible as regards themselves is absolute. And this absolutism pours over into other areas, like theology.
We can do all kinds of armchair analysis, as I have done above, focused on these leaders. But that is not the real mystery of the ages. The real mystery is how their followers can look on the incontrovertible data and willfully lay on it an interpretation that they rest of us would believe to be nonsensical. I believe it is because they, too, project on the Bible what they want to see about themselves. So, for them to walk out of a toxic congregation is to, in a sense, walk out on the beliefs they have carefully formed about themselves. I remember my loss of identity when I abandoned Armstrongism. All of a sudden I was no longer a chosen Israelite but rather a plain Gentile, for instance. Some people can't deal with the dissolution of their role playing.
Remember when we were kids and we played "cowboys and Indians?" Some people never grow beyond that. They find an imagined niche and stay there. It is their framework of reality. But when this projection occurs among leaders and followers, lots of other stuff can also come to the surface - scary stuff.
This could go on, but I think you understand what I am writing about. Someone could say this applies to all Christians and in particular the Apostle Paul. I think not and there are reasons why but, alas, I have some work to do.
********* Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Except he is not on track. Does the Bible not specifically say in Matthew 24:36 that no one, not even the angels in heaven nor the the son know the day or hour when the end will come ? I mean come one. No one is a biblical prophet. Stop stop saying this man is doing any good
Pack is going to lose more members over this.
And go where, I wonder. And some will continue to throw good money after bad - after, Jesus will return next week .. or month .. or year.
A trait of the "weak of the world" is a tendency to self delusion. This is mentioned in Isaiah 30:10 "...speak into us smooth things, prophesy deceits."
I believe Dave is ware of this weakness, and is fully exploiting it with his endless prophesy nonsense and especially his "common" doctrine..
Anonymous at 6:58:00 PM PDT said...“There are only 12 apostles of Jesus Christ - Rev 21:14. I have determined HWA, Dave Pack, and others who have called themselves apostles of Jesus Christ are liars - Rev 2:2.”
Jesus chose twelve of his disciples whom He named apostles (Luke 6:12-16).
Judas Iscariot, the traitor, committed suicide and was replaced by Matthias (Acts 1:15-26).
Notice that Paul (formerly Saul) also claimed to be an apostle of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:1, I Corinthians 1:1, II Corinthians 1:1, Galatians 1:1, Ephesians 1:1, Colossians 1:1, I Timothy 1:1, II Timothy 1:1, Titus 1:1).
The 12 apostles are Peter, James, John, Andrew, Philip, Thomas, Bartholomew, Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, Simon Zelotes, Judas the brother of James, and Paul. There are other apostles, millions if one goes by the definition that an apostle is one who is sent and many have been "sent" to do something, but are not apostles of Jesus Christ. Matthias was "merely" numbered with the 11 apostles and Barnabas was an apostle - Acts 14:14 - but I think the Rev 21:14 apostles are those as named above.
Sorry but that number is wrong. When I started they were 7000, I was back in 2009….
Marc, Great job illustrating the core doctrines of the church and highlighting the Armstrongism elements that crept in during the WCG era, that some churches have adopted, which are absolutely evil.
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