Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
I don't have any problem with the criticisms of David Pack and RCG - of identifying him as a false prophet (he has validated their criticisms and has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a false prophet). However, I think that CGI would do well to deal with their own false teachers (Bill Watson and Adrian Davis) before trying to correct their errant ACOG brethren in other organizations. CGI currently has some serious messaging issues of their own - It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Moreover, the nostalgia for the slick and "professional" marketing of the ACOG past made me a little nauseous. Falsehood can be dressed up and made to look more attractive, but that cannot change the fact that it is falsehood. Sure, the marketing could be much better, but the main problem is with the product that they're trying to sell to the public!
Well,i think the message of all the off-shoots is the wrong message. The OLD covenant is not supposed to be what we as Christians are taught to live under
I prayerfully urge everyone to read 2 Corinthians 3 to see that we are living in the time of the New Covenant. Verses 5-6 says:
" 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as SERVANTS OF A NEW COVENANT not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
But the veil remains unlifted because it is removed IN CHRIST. But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Please,please turn from the OC and repent and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ
Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!" (Both groups were started by GTA). He made these remarks while hyping his own RCG as being the only logical choice if one were searching for the successor to WCG after the so-called apostasy.
Now, as someone who became an outsider to this movement many decades ago, I have come to see rebelling against the teachings of HWA as being the correct course for a person who was once caught up in the scam. It was a faulty product that never delivered, starting with the date HWA did set (1975), and then back-pedaled and lied about. His approach to the prophecy failure was different from Pack's, and therefore seemed somewhat less damning, and hence allowable. Interestingly, we know from recent history how members of the movement react to such events. Some will leave religion completely. Others will turn to mainstream Christianity. A remnant will stick with RCG, "waiting for God to clean up the mess." The trend of splinter groups which emerged beginning in the mid 1970s has provided a wide variety of choices for those who become disenchanted with their particular group, and some will simply move to one of the other groups, although it is difficult to understand how any of these people will have the same amount of enthusiasm as they initially had for their first choice. Splinter-surfing is a somewhat desperate move, one that has become part of the death spiral in which Armstrongism is caught. And so it goes.
It's just ironic, the changing alliances we watch, as these groups self-destruct. I've found that in life experiences in general, the minute one finds a situation that is hospitable to one's liking, and thus seems real, that situation changes, losing some of the characteristics which had made it so real and desirable, appearing as being alive at first love. This happens in health, in one's marriages, in family, in one's employment situation, in a neighborhood, in national or international politics, or in one's church. Is this a perpetual dynamic, or is it the result of a shifting in perspective as one becomes more deeply involved in detail that was not apparent in the new beginnings stage? Whatever it is, it does not seem to bother those whose nature causes them to be on a perpetual odyssey. They adapt because their life is their search. It is only disturbing and disappointing to those who feel that they've arrived at the perfect situation and want or need for it to remain sustainably static. Some people even look forward to the Kingdom as being a place or time when there are only constants, or at least predominantly constants. Is that even possible? I think not.
Anon 8:24 said, "Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!"
Not all members of the CGI were followers of HWA. Over 20 years ago I was with the CGI and many people who I remember coming in, came from the "streets" so to speak, as they've never heard of the Armstrong's or the Worldwide Church of God. Just like me, they had stayed for a short time and eventually left when they saw what the church was really about. Most of the newer members that I had met at that time learned of the CGI through the Armor of God TV program.
I always get a kick out of guys like Pack and Flurry who would call these people rebellious even though they were never apart of the mother church. The only people who might have remained with the CGI were probably former Worldwide members and followers of Ted Armstrong. As for people like me who came off the street, we did not stay very long, I lasted about three years and most people I've seen lasted a few weeks to a few months to maybe a couple of years. I think it was only the hard core Armstrongites that stuck it out. I say that because by the time I left the CGI most of the people that were left in my congregation were Armstrongites, and there were new Armstrongites making their way in from the UCG, LCG, PCG and other splinters, while most of us who discovered the church through the Armor of God were leaving.
Anon 8:24 said, "Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!"
Not all members of the CGI were followers of HWA. Over 20 years ago I was with the CGI and many people who I remember coming in, came from the "streets" so to speak, as they've never heard of the Armstrong's or the Worldwide Church of God. Just like me, they had stayed for a short time and eventually left when they saw what the church was really about. Most of the newer members that I had met at that time learned of the CGI through the Armor of God TV program.
I always get a kick out of guys like Pack and Flurry who would call these people rebellious even though they were never apart of the mother church. The only people who might have remained with the CGI were probably former Worldwide members and followers of Ted Armstrong. As for people like me who came off the street, we did not stay very long, I lasted about three years and most people I've seen lasted a few weeks to a few months to maybe a couple of years. I think it was only the hard core Armstrongites that stuck it out. I say that because by the time I left the CGI most of the people that were left in my congregation were Armstrongites, and there were new Armstrongites making their way in from the UCG, LCG, PCG and other splinters, while most of us who discovered the church through the Armor of God were leaving.
I think that a "hat tip" is in order to the CGI "Prove All Things" folks for having the guts to address the thorny issue of Dave Pack. Since Pack does come from the same "tree" as CGI (ie the WCG), it is important to distance ones group from any "guilt of association" with him, and as a public service as well.
I view all of that as a progressive approach to addressing a problem. The UCG, by contrast , simply ignores or pretends not to see, any other groups, or even the dysfunctional history of the WCG under HWA.
Personally, I believe that CBD has more useful benefits than CGI.
Thanks 1:36 for the interesting and useful information. CGI predates the '90s splinters and as such has a completely different history. I had no idea that the broadcast and media had been so effective in bringing in new members, even if they did turn out to be transient in terms of tenure. Back in the day, I knew some of the people who went with that group when GTA first started it up. I didn't understand the logic of following GTA at that time because of his personal history, but he was very charismatic and did form a number of friendships over the years amongst the employees, the support teams who assisted his media efforts, and the entire history of basketball players at the colleges. It was to CGI's credit that they somehow managed to oust him when he reoffended, because by that time it became perfectly obvious that his weaknesses were pathological. Imagine what the history of the WCG might have been if GTA had lived in accordance with the doctrines. I would still have left in 1975, but I believe the church would have continued to grow in membership and impact if GTA had succeeded his father. It is amazing the impact one man can have, positive or negative, in an empire.
With a slave master like Dave Pack you are NEVER good enough. You are NEVER good with God no matter what you do. Even if you give him every penny, soon he will find another reason why you are headed for the lake of fire. And he'll use it to squeeze more out of you.
GTA lost the power struggle with Rader. That appears to be the main reason for his ouster. But the doctrines in CGI were much better than WCG at the time. Spiritually the COG became a better place with the corporate creation of CGI.
At about the one hour mark, Dave tells his members to give everything they have to his common or they will be tortured and beaten to death in the tribulation. That's plain extortion and terror religion.
I don't know how effective the Armor of God was back in the day in bringing in new members. When myself and others came in the congregation that I had attended, the church had just fired GTA and renamed the TV program to the Armor of God. Also, because the internet was relatively new at that time, most of us had no way of researching the CGI as most people back then, me included, did not own computers.
For most of us newbies, we pretty much found out what the church was all about just by attending. I remember many newbies quitting as soon as they found out that the church did not believe in the trinity, or celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc. The fact that the congregation met in a union hall rather than a church building was also a turn off. I've seen so many newbies turned off and leaving because of the CGI's beliefs. As I said in my last post, most of the people who came and stayed were Armstrongites from the other offshoots. I managed three, maybe just under four years, but I finally left. Most of the newbies who came in from the time I started were all gone by the time when I left, and that congregation was mostly left with hard core Armstrongites by the time of my departure.
Now with almost everyone having access to the internet and able to do some online research, I'm doubting that their TV program is that effective in bringing in new members off the street. I think the CGI is only attractive to other Armstrongites, as Christians in general are not interested in any of the Churches of God. Who knows how much longer these churches will last , especially with the old timers dying off and not enough new blood to carry on this dead work of Armstrongism.
I wonder if Dave prays for torture and bad things to happen to the people who have enough common sense not to participate in his ridiculous interpretation of "common". I bet he probably does!
The thing is, with him being flagrantly and consistently wrong every time he opens his mouth about prophecy, who the hell in his congregation would trust him enough to listen when he lays down financial edicts??? I would most assuredly not allow that man to program my life, or to do my financial planning. F¥€k him!
19 comments:
Matzos? Actually, bread is not good for you. Any bread.
Yeah, I was thinking if it's whole wheat.
Pack is past the point. He is incorrigible.
But still, why can't you grasp what "lying" means.
May God Bless you for what you are doing Marc
I personally think the "bread of life" is very good for you. I partake of it daily!
I don't have any problem with the criticisms of David Pack and RCG - of identifying him as a false prophet (he has validated their criticisms and has repeatedly demonstrated that he is a false prophet). However, I think that CGI would do well to deal with their own false teachers (Bill Watson and Adrian Davis) before trying to correct their errant ACOG brethren in other organizations. CGI currently has some serious messaging issues of their own - It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
Moreover, the nostalgia for the slick and "professional" marketing of the ACOG past made me a little nauseous. Falsehood can be dressed up and made to look more attractive, but that cannot change the fact that it is falsehood. Sure, the marketing could be much better, but the main problem is with the product that they're trying to sell to the public!
Well,i think the message of all the off-shoots is the wrong message. The OLD covenant is not supposed to be what we as Christians are taught to live under
I prayerfully urge everyone to read 2 Corinthians 3 to see that we are living in the time of the New Covenant. Verses 5-6 says:
" 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves so as to consider anything as having come from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6 who also made us adequate as SERVANTS OF A NEW COVENANT not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."
But the veil remains unlifted because it is removed IN CHRIST. But whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Please,please turn from the OC and repent and turn to the Lord Jesus Christ
Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!"
(Both groups were started by GTA). He made these remarks while hyping his own RCG as being the only logical choice if one were searching for the successor to WCG after the so-called apostasy.
Now, as someone who became an outsider to this movement many decades ago, I have come to see rebelling against the teachings of HWA as being the correct course for a person who was once caught up in the scam. It was a faulty product that never delivered, starting with the date HWA did set (1975), and then back-pedaled and lied about. His approach to the prophecy failure was different from Pack's, and therefore seemed somewhat less damning, and hence allowable. Interestingly, we know from recent history how members of the movement react to such events. Some will leave religion completely. Others will turn to mainstream Christianity. A remnant will stick with RCG, "waiting for God to clean up the mess." The trend of splinter groups which emerged beginning in the mid 1970s has provided a wide variety of choices for those who become disenchanted with their particular group, and some will simply move to one of the other groups, although it is difficult to understand how any of these people will have the same amount of enthusiasm as they initially had for their first choice. Splinter-surfing is a somewhat desperate move, one that has become part of the death spiral in which Armstrongism is caught. And so it goes.
It's just ironic, the changing alliances we watch, as these groups self-destruct. I've found that in life experiences in general, the minute one finds a situation that is hospitable to one's liking, and thus seems real, that situation changes, losing some of the characteristics which had made it so real and desirable, appearing as being alive at first love. This happens in health, in one's marriages, in family, in one's employment situation, in a neighborhood, in national or international politics, or in one's church. Is this a perpetual dynamic, or is it the result of a shifting in perspective as one becomes more deeply involved in detail that was not apparent in the new beginnings stage? Whatever it is, it does not seem to bother those whose nature causes them to be on a perpetual odyssey. They adapt because their life is their search. It is only disturbing and disappointing to those who feel that they've arrived at the perfect situation and want or need for it to remain sustainably static. Some people even look forward to the Kingdom as being a place or time when there are only constants, or at least predominantly constants. Is that even possible? I think not.
That broke my heart...but not for the obvious Dave Pack reason.
Anon 8:24 said,
"Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!"
Not all members of the CGI were followers of HWA. Over 20 years ago I was with the CGI and many people who I remember coming in, came from the "streets" so to speak, as they've never heard of the Armstrong's or the Worldwide Church of God. Just like me, they had stayed for a short time and eventually left when they saw what the church was really about. Most of the newer members that I had met at that time learned of the CGI through the Armor of God TV program.
I always get a kick out of guys like Pack and Flurry who would call these people rebellious even though they were never apart of the mother church. The only people who might have remained with the CGI were probably former Worldwide members and followers of Ted Armstrong. As for people like me who came off the street, we did not stay very long, I lasted about three years and most people I've seen lasted a few weeks to a few months to maybe a couple of years. I think it was only the hard core Armstrongites that stuck it out. I say that because by the time I left the CGI most of the people that were left in my congregation were Armstrongites, and there were new Armstrongites making their way in from the UCG, LCG, PCG and other splinters, while most of us who discovered the church through the Armor of God were leaving.
Anon 8:24 said,
"Pack's own criticism of CGI and ICG was always "Those are the people who rebelled against Mr. Herbert Armstrong while he was alive!"
Not all members of the CGI were followers of HWA. Over 20 years ago I was with the CGI and many people who I remember coming in, came from the "streets" so to speak, as they've never heard of the Armstrong's or the Worldwide Church of God. Just like me, they had stayed for a short time and eventually left when they saw what the church was really about. Most of the newer members that I had met at that time learned of the CGI through the Armor of God TV program.
I always get a kick out of guys like Pack and Flurry who would call these people rebellious even though they were never apart of the mother church. The only people who might have remained with the CGI were probably former Worldwide members and followers of Ted Armstrong. As for people like me who came off the street, we did not stay very long, I lasted about three years and most people I've seen lasted a few weeks to a few months to maybe a couple of years. I think it was only the hard core Armstrongites that stuck it out. I say that because by the time I left the CGI most of the people that were left in my congregation were Armstrongites, and there were new Armstrongites making their way in from the UCG, LCG, PCG and other splinters, while most of us who discovered the church through the Armor of God were leaving.
I think that a "hat tip" is in order to the CGI "Prove All Things" folks for having the guts to address the thorny issue of Dave Pack. Since Pack does come from the same "tree" as CGI (ie the WCG), it is important to distance ones group from any "guilt of association" with him, and as a public service as well.
I view all of that as a progressive approach to addressing a problem. The UCG, by contrast , simply ignores or pretends not to see, any other groups, or even the dysfunctional history of the WCG under HWA.
The irony of any Armstrongist group talking about false prophets...
Personally, I believe that CBD has more useful benefits than CGI.
Thanks 1:36 for the interesting and useful information. CGI predates the '90s splinters and as such has a completely different history. I had no idea that the broadcast and media had been so effective in bringing in new members, even if they did turn out to be transient in terms of tenure. Back in the day, I knew some of the people who went with that group when GTA first started it up. I didn't understand the logic of following GTA at that time because of his personal history, but he was very charismatic and did form a number of friendships over the years amongst the employees, the support teams who assisted his media efforts, and the entire history of basketball players at the colleges. It was to CGI's credit that they somehow managed to oust him when he reoffended, because by that time it became perfectly obvious that his weaknesses were pathological. Imagine what the history of the WCG might have been if GTA had lived in accordance with the doctrines. I would still have left in 1975, but I believe the church would have continued to grow in membership and impact if GTA had succeeded his father. It is amazing the impact one man can have, positive or negative, in an empire.
With a slave master like Dave Pack you are NEVER good enough. You are NEVER good with God no matter what you do. Even if you give him every penny, soon he will find another reason why you are headed for the lake of fire. And he'll use it to squeeze more out of you.
GTA lost the power struggle with Rader. That appears to be the main reason for his ouster. But the doctrines in CGI were much better than WCG at the time. Spiritually the COG became a better place with the corporate creation of CGI.
At about the one hour mark, Dave tells his members to give everything they have to his common or they will be tortured and beaten to death in the tribulation. That's plain extortion and terror religion.
@7:59:00,
I don't know how effective the Armor of God was back in the day in bringing in new members. When myself and others came in the congregation that I had attended, the church had just fired GTA and renamed the TV program to the Armor of God. Also, because the internet was relatively new at that time, most of us had no way of researching the CGI as most people back then, me included, did not own computers.
For most of us newbies, we pretty much found out what the church was all about just by attending. I remember many newbies quitting as soon as they found out that the church did not believe in the trinity, or celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc. The fact that the congregation met in a union hall rather than a church building was also a turn off. I've seen so many newbies turned off and leaving because of the CGI's beliefs. As I said in my last post, most of the people who came and stayed were Armstrongites from the other offshoots. I managed three, maybe just under four years, but I finally left. Most of the newbies who came in from the time I started were all gone by the time when I left, and that congregation was mostly left with hard core Armstrongites by the time of my departure.
Now with almost everyone having access to the internet and able to do some online research, I'm doubting that their TV program is that effective in bringing in new members off the street. I think the CGI is only attractive to other Armstrongites, as Christians in general are not interested in any of the Churches of God. Who knows how much longer these churches will last , especially with the old timers dying off and not enough new blood to carry on this dead work of Armstrongism.
I wonder if Dave prays for torture and bad things to happen to the people who have enough common sense not to participate in his ridiculous interpretation of "common". I bet he probably does!
The thing is, with him being flagrantly and consistently wrong every time he opens his mouth about prophecy, who the hell in his congregation would trust him enough to listen when he lays down financial edicts??? I would most assuredly not allow that man to program my life, or to do my financial planning. F¥€k him!
My sister is still a member of Packs cult. And her reaction to the never ending failing Pack prophecies is always the same: “Oh well.. “
I think that’s kinda the reaction a lot of these people have. They’re so used to it by now, that it doesn’t make any difference anymore to them.
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