Armstrongism has deep roots in Adventism that so many splinter groups deliberately choose to ignore when they claim to have direct apostolic succession from the original 1st-century church.
Note: this is NOT an endorsement of Grace Communion International, but it also should NOT be discounted because it is from them. Dan Rogers is far more accurate than the current Church of God history myths floating around various COGs today.
51 comments:
I would not trust anyone from CGI. They had many chances to "educate" me. They lied and lied and lied. Why would I keep going back for more? Why would any honest person stay in their midst?
Is there no better source?
I've thought their called to be free movie and transformed by truth were pretty good tools to help someone transition out of the cult mind. But I have heard that GCI still has some cult baggage. Is this true?
Let me set your mind at ease, 7:52. What do all the Armstrongites say when we call their religion "Armstrongism"? They tell us that the basic collection of doctrines was around before HWA. Those who have gone independent, like as not many of them Ron Dart's people, frequently cite COG7, and GG Rupert as earlier practitioners of the beliefs prior to HWA.
I did not find out about Rupert from GCI. Back in the early 2,000s, years before my former classmate Danny (as he liked to be back then) made the video, someone posted on one of the "dissident" forums (we called them recovery sites) that they had been part of the cleanup crew which went through HWA's basement, and had found a bunch of GG Rupert's materials. They were amazed when they read it, because HWA had always told us that God revealed His truth to him. As the Brits say, he actually nicked it from Rupert! There was other shocking material in HWA's basement, like Hitler's "Mein Kampf", and other writings which revealed that HWA was an admirer of Adolf Hitler! He admired anyone who seemed to wield absolute power.
Just keep reading. Do what journalists are trained to do: Don't accept anything as truth unless you can confirm it from at least two independent sources. Take your time. There are many things which you may not want to believe about HWA which are actually documented truths. Or don't. If you are more comfortable not knowing certain things, just put them out of your mind and do whatever you are comfortable doing. The decision is yours to make.
Let me set your mind at ease, 7:52. What do all the Armstrongites say when we call their religion "Armstrongism"? They tell us that the basic collection of doctrines was around before HWA. Those who have gone independent, like as not many of them Ron Dart's people, frequently cite COG7, and GG Rupert as earlier practitioners of the beliefs prior to HWA.
I did not find out about Rupert from GCI. Back in the early 2,000s, years before my former classmate Danny (as he liked to be back then) made the video, someone posted on one of the "dissident" forums (we called them recovery sites) that they had been part of the cleanup crew which went through HWA's basement, and had found a bunch of GG Rupert's materials. They were amazed when they read it, because HWA had always told us that God revealed His truth to him. As the Brits say, he actually nicked it from Rupert! There was other shocking material in HWA's basement, like Hitler's "Mein Kampf", and other writings which revealed that HWA was an admirer of Adolf Hitler! He admired anyone who seemed to wield absolute power.
Just keep reading. Do what journalists are trained to do: Don't accept anything as truth unless you can confirm it from at least two independent sources. Take your time. There are many things which you may not want to believe about HWA which are actually documented truths. Or don't. If you are more comfortable not knowing certain things, just put them out of your mind and do whatever you are comfortable doing. The decision is yours to make.
I left the WCG in the early 90's, (long before the majority of the ministers and members). I didn't want to hear their lies and apologies then, nor do I now.
I've found it helps watching presentations like these at a higher speed by pressing the icon at the top right hand side, and choosing the speed setting. I typically choose the 1.25 or even the 1.5 for very slow speakers.
I have been studying the teachings and history of Seventh Day Adventism for over 15 years. It is, in my opinion, the cleverest and most deceptive of all the spiritual counterfeits that came out of the parent movement of Millerism.
They have mastered the art of hiding in plain sight among mainstream Christianity better than any of the others by using the exact same terms that any denomination would recognize, but having a vastly different meaning. "Saved by grace through faith" being the best example. A believer would understand that to mean that once we place our full faith and weight in the finished work of Jesus, we are saved. It is a gift from God and not of works lest any man should boast. But Adventism adds a whole lot more to that perfect simplicity. Yes, saved by grace through faith AND keeping the 10 commandments, ESPECIALLY the sabbath, believing the writings of Ellen White, the only prophet since Jesus, becoming vegetarian or preferably vegan, the "gospel" is the three angels messages in Rev 14:1-6, not 1st Cor 15 :1-4, come out of Babylon (I.e. Sunday churches), tithing, SATAN is the final sin bearer, NOT Jesus and the lethal "investigative judgment", which began on Oct. 22, 1844, when Jesus entered (for the 1st time mind you) the Most Holy Place to start that judgment (of believers, no less). And those are just the highlights.
I have often recommended former Adventist groups, podcasts and youtube channels to folks here who are struggling with their group because of the tremendous crossover of doctrinal beliefs. Former Adventist podcast and YT channel, Answering Adventism YT channel and website, Academy Apologia YT channel, Thunder Lauriston YT channel are the best of the best for struggling members of any COG group. You will find your feet again and learn how these groups subtly twist Scripture to arrive at their heresies and how to recover from being in a cult. I praise the Lord for the efforts of these groups who are all now born again Christians and are working so hard to bring an end to all the Millerite splinters who have stolen the peace and security in Jesus that will also cost an adherent their presence with Jesus eternally for any who die believing the counterfeit that somehow passes for genuine Christianity. Armstrongism is just a poor counterfeit of the king of counterfeits, Adventism.
Anonymous 7:52 wrote, "I would not trust anyone from CGI."
This is actually a video produced by GCI not CGI. I don't know if this is what you intended to say or just a little dyslexia.
Lost in the history of the Armstrong/ COG 7 and SDA movements, is the interesting roots of the CHRISTIAN CONNEXION , (yes with the X). Many of the early ministers of the post 1844 Miller movement had a root there, and a study of their beliefs and practices is a worthwhile study to see the origin of many of them.
This is a fantastic talk. I heard it for the first time this morning while at work. It’s worth the two hours. It does a good job of explaining what kind of person HWA was. And though the speaker had some fun at HWA’s expense, he was not arrogant. I appreciated the analogy about HWA being like the great and terrible Wizard of Oz: behind the curtain, he was just a man. A troubled man.
While my religious pursuits took me on a different path, I admire the courage of the WCG leaders in the 1990s. It’s inspiring. The transformations God can do for people — when the clay is willing to be shaped — is amazing.
Having just realized that Mr. Armstrong was not an apostle, I am grateful for you people. So many scriptures were twisted. It’s a lot to sort out.
What caught my attention was that HWA took his daughter Dorothy with him on his travels. I always assumed he "did it" at home.
This is an excellent video of the history of the church and how manipulative Armstrong really was. Thanks for posting.
A very effective presentation which focused on Herbert Armstrong's own writings and personal records. His account of his time alone with Dorothy, even at this distance, seems inappropriate and supportive of the more serious accusations of moral failure which have been explored here. Finally, Armstrong's narcissism is very apparent - it doesn't take someone with expertise in psychology or psychiatry to discern that he was afflicted with extreme self-centeredness. Even so, I think that the analysis was extremely objective and fair - eschewing a superior, judgmental, or self-righteous tone/character.
The lesson: None of us should think too highly of ourselves, and NO one should insert themselves into Scripture or assume to speak for God! And, since God's Spirit leads us into love, peace, patience, kindness, compassion, empathy, etc., and soundness of mind, it becomes painfully clear that the Herbert Armstrong was NOT submitting to the leadership of the Holy Spirit! This should be enough to cause even the most timid person among us to reevaluate Herbert's teachings.
What I meant to say was GCI. But I don't trust CGI either.
If they are so Christian and so brave, why didn't they just admit it was all BS, since they apparently knew that for a long time before HWA died? No, they faked it until Herbert was dead and they had the power. Even then they strung people along for years and denied making changes. Changes? What changes?
To Anon @ 10:47. You just made my day!! Actually, my YEAR!! God bless you!
God bless all those at Banned. You truly have done more to share the genuine gospel of Jesus Christ and lead people out of deception and to salvation IN JESUS CHRIST than all the COGs combined ever have or ever will!!
What a great day this is!! Someone actually saw the light! Thank you Jesus! Many, many prayers answered.
Narcissism is difficult to treat. I can't imagine HWA admitting that he had any personality disorder. Can you imagine him telling Roderick Meredith, "Sorry Rod, I can't schedule a meeting at 2 p.m. on Thursday, that's my long- standing therapy session." Or maybe the therapist could come to AC and offer group therapy in the conference room for HWA, GTA, Meredith and a few others. Wouldn't you love to listen in to those sessions? After a couple of sessions, the therapist might walk out in frustration and think, "I've got to find a new line of work."
So, was God unable to find a person who was actually qualified to lead the church? Didn't he give us some guidelines in 1 Tim. 3? Sure, God uses flawed individuals, we are ALL flawed, but some are also unqualified to be in a position of church leadership. You would like to think that only the more mature Christian makes it to the upper ranks of the church, rather than those most loyal to one man.
I have absolutely no reason or motive to make a defense for the man, Lonnie, but his time away with Dorothy could also have been what ultimately fed the story (if it is false). People tend to fill in blanks haphazardly when measuring something they cant explain - for a hilarious example, now that the Charlie Brown holiday specials are only available on streaming, people are circulating the myth that they were taken off network tv bc they "offended" someone - even though thats not what happened, Apple just bought the rights to them. Or Hillary Clinton's IFB cable in the debates of yesteryear, which led to all kinds of wild suggestions.
On the other hand, yes, on the surface of it, it is a curious decision.
There was a piece of private correspondence published some time ago, dating from very early in HWAs "study" days... IIRC, he had written to someone regarding the BI books he was reading and asking for more book titles. Whoever it was that he had contacted had suggested a book by a "Disciplus" that "connnected Pyramid-truth and Bible-truth".
I just randomly thought of this the other day and went to look it up.
"Discipulus" was author Basil Stewart - the book was "The Witness of the Great Pyramid". You can still find it here and there from sellers of old books.
I was not able to find a digital copy to peruse, but I did read part of a contemporary book citing Stewart.
Whether or not HWA actually followed the recommendation and read it, I don't know, but it sounds like a good peek into popular fringe stuff at the time.
The Pasadena AC library had the Witness of the Great Pyramid book along with others by Rutherford, Charles Piazzi Smyth, and others mentioned below. There was an entire shelf dedicated to pyramidology and its ties to British Israelism. This is where some of the junk came from that Armstrong incorporated into church doctrine. Most of these books were from the mid to late 1880's into the 1920's.
"Smyth's theories were later expanded upon by early 20th century British Israelites such as Colonel Garnier (Great Pyramid: Its Builder & Its Prophecy, 1905), who began to theorise that chambers within the Great Pyramid contain prophetic dates which concern the future of the British, Celtic, or Anglo-Saxon peoples. However this idea originated with Robert Menzies, an earlier correspondent of Smyth's.[12] David Davidson with H. Aldersmith wrote The Great Pyramid, Its Divine Message (1924) and further introduced the idea that Britain's chronology (including future events) may be unlocked from inside the Great Pyramid. This theme is also found in Basil Stewart's trilogy on the same subject: Witness of the Great Pyramid (1927), The Great Pyramid, Its Construction, Symbolism and Chronology (1931) and History and Significance of the Great Pyramid ... (1935). More recently a four-volume set entitled Pyramidology was published by British Israelite Adam Rutherford (released between 1957–1972).[13] British Israelite author E. Raymond Capt also wrote Great Pyramid Decoded in 1971 followed by Study in Pyramidology in 1986."
"The Pasadena AC library had the Witness of the Great Pyramid book along with others by Rutherford, Charles Piazzi Smyth, and others mentioned below. There was an entire shelf dedicated to pyramidology and its ties to British Israelism."
I had a friend in High School who was in the WWCG, and he believed Pyramids had some mystical energy. He did a science project where he grew plants inside and outside of a pyramid structure. I think it was called Pyramid Power. I thought it was a ridiculous nonsense. Does anyone know if that was a widely held belief or just something unique to my friend?
Jeff:
Pyramids and psychic power were big in the mid to late 1970s. You could buy portable pyramids to put in your backyard or living room to sit under and energize yourself. There was even a movie made about it. Fergie was even dumb enough to try it...sigh.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfeikDfIwHM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYdaaQX3QqY
This one is hilarious:
https://digitalfilmarchive.net/news/dfa-staff-pick-pyramid-energy-kit-1272
Just as a person can have both heart disease and cancer so some can be both bipolar and a narcissist. Narcissists tend to gravitate towards careers where they can be the center of attention, be idolized, above the law, etc. This means entertainment (they love the audience applause), ministry (love the titles like Apostle, Bishop, and robes) and politics. HWA had many of the symptoms of narcissism. So the question remains, "was he a sincere, though troubled person or just another con man?".
I remember Pyramid Power was a big thing in the 70's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_power
Adventism has a problem similar to some COGs, in that a good number of its members practically worship Ellen G. White.
Her writings are in every Sabbath School Quarterly. Some ministers (not all) refer to EGW writings during services almost on a 50-50 mix with Bible references.
When I tried out an SDA after leaving WCG, one enthusiastic member gave me The Great Controversy in paperback to read - with 550+ pages.
After going through study lists pre-baptism with WCG, I decided I didn't want to go through that again.
Yet some COG ministers read SDA books. Before the UCG-COGWA split, Jim Franks admitted during a Feast sermon that he was reading The Great Controversy. Quite surprising to me.
Not only did Dorothy travel with HWA for weeks and months on end. HWA's autobiography/diary states that Loma sent their oldest son, 13 year old Richard, to stay with Herbert and daughter Dorothy during one 4 month period when they were in LA. Did Loma suspect the incest was occurring and send Richard there in the hope he would interfere with it. IF so, it seems Herbert found a way around it by sending Richard off hours away each day and told him not to come home till dinner. It seems he is making sure the boy will be gone for many hours and far enough away that he won't show up early. Awful.
I remember Pyramid Power was a big thing in the 70's.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyramid_power
IN one of the 1950 PLAIN TRUTH MAGAZINES it is published in mass circulation that Loma Armstrong JOKINGLY says
"if there are special powers hidden in the pyramids than Mr Armstrong is certainly NOT privy to it"
and HWA repeats that several times in taped sermons on the internet also...
nck
" They were amazed when they read it, because HWA had always told us that God revealed His truth to him"
The only problem here is your PRECONCEIVED idea about what REVEALING is.
You seem to believe it is some kind of dreamstate.
I have found that I read great literature by the top writers when I was seventeen years old.
However the meaning of those books was only truly "Revealed" to me when I was 27.
I guess the same goes for a lot of pop music.
nck
7th day adventism was a personality cult until at about the same time as WCG moved toward and became member of the World Council of Churches being respected protestant churches now.
As a matter of fact Adventism is the fastest growing church on earth next to Mormonism.
Of course Adventism being rooted in the Agricultural parts in the world since its inception.
Many politicians are Adventist even Presidential Candidates and in some countries "Green Parties" seemingly leftist but behind the curtain raised by adventists.
nck
It is important to acknowledge that the history indicates that HWA was a part of a movement. There is a thread that runs from Restorationism through Millerism down to people like HWA and David Koresh. Almost all of the "history of the true church" pertains to HWA and David Koresh equally. Only in the last century was there a bifurcation with the WCG on one branch and the Branch Davidians on a different branch.
There is no pristine arc, tracing out events in noble isolation, traveling from the First Century to modern Armstrongism. It is an arc shared with many organizations - some of them disturbing. Armstrongism, in its overt history, is kinda like your pompous cousin whose egocentricity led him to deny his family as being beneath him. Others in the family know that this aloofness is not dignity but simple self-aggrandizement.
Yeah, that was in vogue in the 1970s and continued a bit into the 80s, though it was based on much older claims about how razors wouldnt dull if kept in pyramid housings and dead matter wouldnt deteriorate.
Pyramidology of the prior century (when linked to BI) claimed that one could "unlock prophecy" by studying the Great Pyramid of Giza's measurements.
Nick, try watching the video for a minute or so starting at 58.28 minutes. HWA is quoted from his autobiography as claiming that his doctrines did not come from man but from revelation from Christ. This is very different from your lawyer talk definition of "revealing."
How can anyone who worships God put HWA or any man person on a pedestal, especially in their old age.
John 8:32 tells us that the truth will set us free. Perhaps it's truth that you need to deify rather than half truths and distortions.
If they still hold onto any vestige of Armstrongism, like admitting HWA was their founder, they most certainly do have cult baggage. Their deceit in making the changes to supposed evangelical Christianity was just like the way they changed the doctrines of the mother cult back in the day. And the same kind of rascals that made the changes in the Old WCG were behind the so-called 'liberation' of the cult from its Adventist past. They should have just dissolved the remnants of the cult, and given the money from it to charity.
It all depends on whether you believe HWA was called by God. You either believe it or don't. Debates between the two are stupid.
I'm surprised that this minister had been around for some decades. How did he become converted? He doesn't believe HWA was doing God's work. So it all depends on your slant. You interpret the facts.
Mike Feazell and Tkach Jr sound like they were never converted in the first place. Second generation members?
If a leader is called for a mission it will consume him. That's how major projects can get done. Non-followers will use silly terms like "narcissism".
What do I care about the skepticisms of non-members anyway.
I found it ironic that Herbert Armstrong described the Bible as a coded book. According to Mr. Dan Rogers in this video, Herbert Armstrong’s autobiography was a coded book. He had to jump around the autobiography to develop a timeline. When he described what it took to develop the timeline, citing page and versions, it made sense to me why I could not follow along Herbert Armstrong‘s autobiography of his earlier years when I read it in the 1970s. I do also wondered how Herbert Armstrong could have successive business failures in the 1920s when the 1920s were one of the most prosperous decades in American history up until that time. Richard
Anonymous Friday, August 18, 2023 at 12:13:00 PM PDT,
NO, it depends on whether or not you have any common sense. FACTS are stubborn things. Narcissism is a real thing, and it appears that many of the folks in the ACOGs are attracted to this character flaw (this kind of self-interest and lack of empathy for others is the antithesis of Christ's character). And, finally, most of the folks here were formerly members of the old Worldwide Church or one of the ACOGs which descended from it. Hence, I would say that it is foolish not to pay attention to the experiences of folks who have already been there, done that.
Well, as has been pointed out by multiple writers, HWAs standard of what constituted "revealed" knowledge was not always the same as the common understanding. One might argue that he played fast and loose with that term, or you might put it in the context of his lack of education (or both).
I do not recall instances where he did much to try to clear that up, but there might be some that I do not recall. It would have been a non-issue to me back then anyway, I did not believe any god spoke to him directly and thought those that made claims like that were just kissing his ass in absentia.
12.13 pm
In case you missed it, Balaam was also "doing Gods work." Does that put him above moral evaluation or give him a get-out-of-jail-free pass? The bible lays bare the sins of leaders, so acknowledging HWAs failings does not make one a wicked laodicean.
Yes, 12:13, but my question for you would be, do you understand the meaning of the word illusion? I understand your perspectives in this, believe me. However you can fully believe in, and participate in an illusion, and actually be invested in it and totally sincere. And then one day, you encounter better information, or undergo a personal experience which shakes you out of the illusion. It is no longer real to you, and suddenly you are raising the bar and growing towards the next level!
It is part of the human condition to go along day to day believing that you have truth. What does one do when encountering new facts, or a new interpretation which changes everything?
5:14,
Well said. But, I remember thinking similarly to 213 before I saw through the illustrations.
What CGI got to do with Grace Communion ?
Ha! Ha! Naming yourself "COG Catholic" that's a complicated disaster waiting to happen. I guess you've not dealt much with real Catholic's.
To the narcissism, also add a strong crosscurrent of obsessive-compulsive/hyperactive. And don't forgot sex-addiction!
Hitler couldn't hold down a regular job in the 1920s either, but he did have "all the answers".
Poor Loma, hers was the first life ruined by know-it-all/won't-get-a-job/high-school-dropout Herbert.
Dan Rogers refers to HWA's autobiography . . . how much of it was accurate? Didn't GTA comment that much of it was made up? A narcissist isn't going to write an accurate autobiography. It might be more propaganda than history. Excusing his behavior using King David as an example is wrong. A king had different qualification for leadership than an elder (1 Tim 3). Was HWA a lover of money or A heavy drinker? All people are flawed, god is stuck using flawed people, but some are flawed plus unqualified for leadership in a church. Why would God call such an unqualified person? Why would HWA keep incriminating letters and publications in his confidential files rather than destroying them? Didn't he plant the seeds for the tarnishing of his reputation by holding onto them? I've often wondered if he was sincere or a conman. He didn't abide by his own rules when he received medical care. He didn't give money to the church as he expected others to. In 1980 he declared $387,755 in gross income, but only $46,589 in contributions. Why would a man his age need that much money, especially since he had an expense account that covered some items. "Recapture True Values" was more preached than lived.
When people walk over all of God's laws, they become delusional. Which is why HWA didn't destroy his confidential files and publications since he felt that he would live forever.
Illusions. lol. Wolverton illustrations might apply.
It's not a disaster, but a blessing. I was a real COGer, born, raised, and educated. Then I turned to Catholicism around 23 years ago. I'm a real Catholic. These days I attend the Traditional Latin Mass.
I appreciate my COG background, as I have had to overcome my instilled skepticism of Catholicism. It has given me a good perspective.
The C of God Catholic at 2:40 p.m. You migrated from WCG to Catholicism: some would say you moved in the wrong direction. I live in a predominantly Catholic community. I wonder if the Apostles would recognize any of the churches today. What happened to "Do not go beyond what is written" and "Do not add to or take away from the Word"? There are Mennonites and Amish nearby. I think the simpler lifestyle of the Mennonites would be more in line with that of the NT Church. Man has made Christianity so complicated that I fear that what is most important gets lost under all the traditions, rituals, etc.
Anonymous Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:26:00 AM PDT,
I rejoice that Church of God Catholic came through his association with Armstrongism and emerged from that experience as a committed Christian. Although I personally find many Catholic doctrines and practices to be objectionable, I would say that they have the essentials of Christianity intact. Moreover, just as we have left Armstrongism behind, we must also shed the anti-Catholic rhetoric of traditional Protestantism and Armstrongism. All human attempts to organize the Church have resulted in abuses, atrocities, and questionable theology. Unfortunately, the history of "organized" Christianity is not an attractive narrative! Even so, to exclude all of the individuals who belong to those traditions because of the sins of others is certainly NOT Scriptural or Christian. Yes, there have been more than a few "Popes" who have NOT evidenced the fruits of the Holy Spirit, but the current occupant of the papal throne appears to me to demonstrate evidence of the Holy Spirit and to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ. Remember, what you know (or think you know) is NOT the standard!
Anonymous Sunday, August 20, 2023 at 8:26:00 AM:
I understand some people say I moved in the wrong direction; and I know many times more people who say I moved in the right direction. Catholicism, by the way, declares the Bible to be holy, infallible, and inspired of God.
Man can make Christianity complicated, but that doesn't mean Christianity should not be developed organically in its implications or be prevented from growing into what it's supposed to be. Recall the stone that smashed into Nebuchadnezzar's statue at the feet in the book of Daniel. The stone became a great mountain and filled the earth. It didn't remain as a smaller stone.
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