Taking the Place of Honor
When I think of Herbert Armstrong and the folks who have claimed to be his successors (e.g. Roderick Meredith, Gerald Flurry, David Pack, Bob Thiel, etc.), I am reminded of something that Jesus said to his disciples, and that the Apostle Paul wrote to the Romans. To coin a phrase, the PLAIN TRUTH of the matter is that these guys have such an exalted notion of their importance and place in both the present (the ekklesia) and future (God's Kingdom) that they have little or NO compunction about claiming the best seat at the banquet!
In the Gospel of Luke, we read: "Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 'When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." - Luke 14:7-11, ESV
In similar fashion, the Apostle Paul once wrote to Christ's disciples at Rome: "For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness. Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good. Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor. Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord. Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints and seek to show hospitality. Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. Live in harmony with one another. Do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly. Never be wise in your own sight." - Romans 12:3-16, ESV
Now, when we compare the exploits of these men with these passages, we are forced to conclude that they all seized the places of honor for themselves. They all thought much too highly of themselves! Instead of seeking to serve their brothers and sisters in Christ, they chose to gather the reins of power and prestige to themselves and lord it over their brethren (Matthew 20:25-28). Hmmm, that reminds me of something else Christ once said: "many who are (present tense) first will be last, and the last first." (Matthew 19:30) In other words, by their own actions, these men have assured that their place in God's Kingdom will be small (if they make it there at all)!
21 comments:
I don't recall ever thinking of the ministry in quite this way, although what you say is certainly valid. For the most part (there were exceptions), I thought of them as being drunk on their own authority, and for sure, "know it alls". I tried to stay below the radar, and to avoid them, because I didn't want them meddling in my business. There did seem to be an abnormal presence of brown-nosers in the church, and I'm quite sure that ministers drew artificial strength from such people, and may have actually thought of them as zealous individuals with the proper attitude.
I found it hilarious when reading the Manpower Reports in the old "Ambassador Reports" magazine, seeing a quote from one of the higher ups, that "Here is yet another person whom we somehow can never get to know!" I realized in that instant that rather than being unique, I actually fit one of their profiles! We probably all should be very guarded concerning who we allow to get to know us. Nothing wrong with a little privacy, and matters held to be personal. Not every Tom, "dick" or Harry deserves to know all our stuff.
"These guys have such an exalted notion of their importance . . ."
Yes, I have been down that road myself, but it definitely applies to the elite of our society, the politicians, scientists, corporate heads, as well as many religious leaders, bankers, doctors, lawyers, and educators. You know, the people you are not allowed to question!
It's called being "of the world".
Lonnie, good comments here ---- can't argue with scripture! It was the climate in the organization whether a minister or attendee. Great honor was attributed to the various offices which increased the 'higher up' one climbed. In Global once a friend of mine, (who I didn't know at the time), attended his first Global service and noted a kindly, grey haired, gentleman moving among the group, welcoming my friend and others with him. He was pretty much astounded when the service started and he discovered the old gentleman, (Sid Hegvold), was the pastor of the group! We were not used to that, but rather the minister blowing in just as the service started or after, then standing afterwards as people lined up to talk to him. I once had a minister tell me he could not let himself get close to anyone in the congregation because of the importance of his office.
Like 12:36 indicated, I too did not care to expose my thoughts or habits to a minister, but did see plenty of what I assumed were 'brown nosers', who were always trying to get in the presence of and talk to the minister, or even local elder. Maybe I got it from my dad who would say that he didn't need to counsel with a minister, because HE knew if he could afford to buy a car and what color he preferred without having to check with the minister first! LOL In some areas that was strongly encouraged.
This is the fruit of HIERARCHY and a pyramid shaped governmental structure. Top down systems always end up like this.
When I wrote this post, I had a Freudian slip - I wrote Gerald Waterhouse instead of Gerald Flurry. I guess, in my subconscious mind, the similarities in the two men meshed them into one. You know, the fawning worship of Herbert Armstrong, the vivid imagination, and the indulgence in wild speculation - Yes, almost interchangeable!
"You can only have one legal name."
When I began this journey, the fact that I still had family and friends within the ACOGs prompted me to use my longstanding pen name, Miller Jones. However, as time went on, and my own identity and integrity became critical to the things that I was saying, I felt compelled to reveal my real name. I continue to use both the pen name and my legal name in posts so as to leave no doubt about who wrote those things in the past.
Church leaders who know the Bible, claim to follow it, and then criticize other groups should be ashamed when they read these verses:
Romans 11:18 "do not boast against the branches."
John 21:21-22 "But Lord, what about this man?" Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."
James 4:10-11 "Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up. Do not speak evil of one another, brethren."
Matt 24:49 " . . . and begins to beat his fellow servants . . . "
Romans 14:10 "But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ."
Phil 2:3 "but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself."
Acts 5:38-39 "And now I say to you, keep away from these men and let them alone; for if this plan or this work is of men, it will come to nothing; but if it is of God, you cannot overthrow it—lest you even be found to fight against God."
Prov 27:2 "Let another man praise you, and not your own mouth"
Titus 3:2 ". . . speak evil of no one.
Romans 14:4 "Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
Matthew 7:3 "And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"
Matthew 7:12 "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them"
Romans 16:16-17 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and avoid them. For those who are such do not serve our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly, and by smooth words and flattering speech deceive the hearts of the simple."
Philippians 2:21 "For all seek their own, not the things which are of Christ Jesus."
1 Cor 3:12-13 "put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering; bearing with one another, and forgiving one another, if anyone has a complaint against another; even as Christ forgave you, so you also must do."
Proverbs 15:33 "Humility goes before honor."
Eph 4:1-3 "walk worthy of the calling with which you were called, with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love, endeavoring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace."
Galatians 5:14-15 "If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.”
1 Cor 1:29 "That no flesh should glory in His presence."
Eph 4:32 "be kind to one another, tenderhearted"
2 Corinthians 10:12 "For we dare not class ourselves or compare ourselves with those who commend themselves. But they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."
Proverbs 6:16,19 "These six things the LORD hates . . . one who sows discord among brethren."
LCG Expositor,
The men mentioned in this post have sown discord among brethren. As far as I know, those of us who contribute here are NOT responsible for the creation of a single splinter group. They are the ones who bite and snipe at each other. In short, they wouldn't recognize the Golden Rule if it bit them in the -ss! They are quick to point out the sins of others and attack anyone who dares to criticize them. On the other hand, most of us here at "Banned" have made a consistent effort to help, nurture, and support those who have been abused by those men.
One more comment, since I raised the issue of brown-nosing. What kinds of people usually are the object of sycophants' noses? Authoritarians, bullies, in some cases teachers. or people who
simply control something that you want. These people usually share certain personality characteristics, and Armstrongites have been programmed to believe that those with these characteristics make them the type of leader to look for. Over months or years, that becomes a need, a need which has the effect of crippling the seeker!
If you believe that Armstrongism is the way to go because of the doctrines, protect yourself from the known aspects of poor leadership. Let others brown-nose. Of course I understand that if someone is a member of RCG or PCG, you may not be able to get away with that. We know Dave Pack's entire board of elders is required to be obsequious, as an example.
As Tonto stated, its about the Hierarchy. One of the most hierarchy-intense environments I was ever in was Faculty Dining at Ambassador College Big Sandy. The pride of rank was almost palpable. Very uncomfortable. Very non-Christian. Have a look at:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2023/05/the-hierarchy-armstrongism-and-theology.html
Scout
Which COG will repent and humble themselves??
Exodus 23:14-16: Three times shall you keep a feast unto Me in the year...the feast of unleavened bread..seven days....the feast of harvest....the feast of ingathering.
Pause.
Where's the Passover? Feast of Trumpets? Day of Atonement? Last Great or 8th Day?
Armstrong's answer: "Times" in Ex 23:14 means seasons of 2 feasts, 1 feast, 4 feasts (7 offerings!). No, it means stroke/step of time. The truth: "Feasts" in Lev 23:2 is a mistranslation, should be fixed/set times that include both feasts and sabbaths. "Trumpets", "Atonement", "8th Day" are sabbaths, not feasts. The last great day of John 7:37 is the last day of the FOT, the 7th day b/c it's a day "of the feast". The Passover, the 14th, is the first day of UB - Deut 16:2-4/Eze 45:21/Mat 26:17/Mark 14:1,12/Luke 22:1,7. Lev 23:6 commands a feast on the 15th, not a 7 day feast beginning on the 15th.
Don't you mean hypocrisy.
Here we have instruction on the haughtiness of Herbie's descendants. Haughty they are, especially given their beliefs with their teachers who do not believe they have to do what they teach. It’s just for the lower people.
There are a lot of ways where people who believe themselves to be teachers are haughty and in almost every case, in the land of the Herbites for example, a good bit of that haughtiness involves their incorrect beliefs.
Interestingly, there is any example at this link on this site here https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-different-iterations-of-gods-law.html where the author of this article on teachers of their ancestors of the Herbster is haughty. One reason of a number is that he believes he either does not have to answer or that he can simply repeat the same thing again and again as seen in the comments linked just above here and never providing answers that are actually relevant to points made to his. Yes, he thinks he does, but it is a lie and he knows he cannot truly answer these questions / points which he knows are not tricks.
He writes of this site nurturing people affected by the evil of the wcg. However, his belief that basically what would be called protestant is another form of evil. While it seems all nice and kind and wise, it is yet another person trying to teach that his way is the truth. While certainly nicer than the absolute idiocy of the wcg and its power games all in the name of being placed in second place until the mighty Herbster bestows the gift of rule when he passes on and now in the battle of supremacy of the wcg rejects.
All of these people have no love for the layman. Whether it is the lording it over style of the wcg or the "I am hear to help you with my teachings" attitude of all you need is love, both types and anything else that is not true is evil and leads to destruction.
Just like the old wcg, he is not going to answer clear points and questions that do not fit his belief. You are not someone he needs to answer because you are not important or he will just repeat the same things which for the most part are ture, but that do not address the holes in the conclusions he made from reading them . Face it.
There is more than one way to dismiss those who are less than you. If you want an example of how the author of this article dismisses others, see the link noted above. He cannot answer and repeats the same things whereas many times, the wcg just told the people to hush up and / or abused them with its system.
Stupid is as stupid does, from the Herbster way to the so-called "christian" way.
2:06 writes:
"Trumpets", "Atonement", "8th Day" are sabbaths, not feasts.”
“Trumpets” and “8th Day” are not sabbaths; they are sabbathons; in the LXX the term for these days is anapausis; (with sabbaton used for the sabbath).
BTW, do you prepare your food before non-atonement holy days as you presumably do for the 7th day?
2:06 writes:
“The last great day of John 7:37 is the last day of the FOT, the 7th day b/c it's a day "of the feast".”
Not necessarily so if the “feast” is used idiomatically:
“317 Thus, in memory of the need we then experienced, we keep for eight days, a feast [heorten] called Unleavened Bread...” (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Bk. 2, chpt 15).
“245 and that when we reach our fatherland and the city to be our metropolis on account of the temple, we should keep a festival [heorten] for eight days [i.e., tabernacles] (Bk. 3, chpt. 10).
2:06 writes:
The Passover, the 14th, is the first day of UB - Deut 16:2-4/Eze 45:21/Mat 26:17/Mark 14:1,12/Luke 22:1,7.
The 14th as the first day of UB in Matt 26:17 /Mark 14:1, 12/Luke 22:1, 7 can also be understood idiomatically.
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast [heorte, LXX] of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Josephus explains:
248 In the month of Xanthicus, which is called Nisan by us and begins our year, on the fourteenth day of the lunar month, when the sun is in Aries, this month when we were saved from slavery under the Egyptians, every year by law we offer that sacrifice, called the Passover...
249 After the passover, on the fifteenth comes the feast [heorte] of the Azymes, lasting for seven days, when they eat unleavened bread... (Bk. 3, chpt. 10).
The Passover is a sacrifice offered in the afternoon of the fourteenth day; eaten that night beginning the fifteenth.
2:06 writes:
“Lev 23:6 commands a feast on the 15th, not a 7 day feast beginning on the 15th.”
Lev 23:6a And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD...
Lev 23:39a Also on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ... you shall keep the feast of the LORD...
Using your ‘logic’ then tabernacles is a feast on the 15th - Lev 23:39a - “not a 7 day feast beginning on the 15th”.
Lev 23:39 you shall keep the feast of the LORD for seven days
but Lev 23:39b explains the intent of Lev 23:39a.
This is the sense of how Lev 23:6 is to be understood.
You reference Eze 45:21 to support your claim that the 14th is the first day of unleavened bread; but you can’t reference 45:23 and 45:25 to support your claim for “a feast on the 15th, not a 7 day feast beginning on the 15th”.
Eze 45:23 And seven days of the feast he shall prepare a burnt offering to the LORD,
Eze 45:25 In the seventh month, in the fifteenth day of the month, shall he do the like in the feast of the seven days,
Roy Gane presented this “symmetrical pattern”:
Spring
Passover (1 day)
Unleavened Bread (7 days)
Elevated Sheaf (1 Day
Weeks (1 day)
Autumn
Trumpets (1 day)
Day of Purgation (1 day)
Booths (7 days)
Solemn Assembly (1 day)
(Leviticus, Numbers, NIVAC, p.402).
From this it may be said that the liturgical year opens with a sacrifice on the 14th followed by a feast of seven days; and closes with a feast of seven days followed by a sabbaton/anapausis. 1 plus 7 begins the liturgical year and 7 plus 1 ends it.
Let's make this simple: there are only 3 feasts/festivals in the year and the first one in the spring is only 7 days long.
Anonymous Saturday, February 3, 2024 at 4:11:00 PM PST,
I hope that everyone here does check out the post you referenced and sees that the questions you excoriated me for not answering were posed TODAY, 2/3/2024! Sorry, I generally stop following the commentary thread on my posts a week after they are published (the one you referenced was posted on January 5, 2024). If you are truly interested, I posted some responses to your comments there.
Ha ha ! Whoever got labelled: 'Here is yet another person whom we somehow can never get to know!" Is a unsung hero only known to God!!!. They did walk amongst us and still do ha ha!!
The less they know about you the better. Don't even let them know fully how you earn a living. Ha ha!!
The abuses are getting worse and worse. Daris McNely was in Phillipines. He was not liked by members and many ministers.He is horrible.
He and Mario Seiglie should not be in the ministry.
Why are they allowed to continue. The headquarters must know about them?
You are assuming that "headquarters" is good people. They probably know about and approve of thise two gentlemen''s activities. That's a thing with Armstrongism! Look ar how Dave Pack survived within the system all those years until he started his own church.
Hasn't Mario died?
Mario Seiglie is doing fine. I just saw him this weekend.
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