....one is, and the other has not yet come...and the Beast that was and is not...the eighth.."
"Bible Prophecy" is for the people who hear and receive it. Bible prophecy is not something that projects thousands of years into the future, where every following generation can come up with "reasons" why it means them...and then die out having to realize it didn't mean them either.
An excellent example of prophecy being for those in whose times it is given is the all too familiar Revelation 17. Revelation was not written for us. It was written for them who were experiencing the Siege and Fall of Jerusalem from 66 CE to the final crushing blow at Masada in 73 CE.
And it was when Revelation fell into the category of a hopeful but now failed first century prophecy.
REVELATION 17:
9 Here is the mind which has wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits. 10 There are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
The first seven Kings of the Roman Empire were:
Five have fallen,
1. Julius Caesar 46-44 BCE (Founder of the Julian Dynasty)
2. Augustus (Octavian) Caesar 27 BCE-14 CE (Considered the 1st Caesar)
3. Tiberious Caesar 14 CE to 37 CE
4. Gaius Caesar (Caligula) 37 CE to 41 CE
5. Claudius Caesar 41 CE to 54 CE
One is
(At the time of the actual writing of the Book of Revelation)
6. Nero Caesar 54 CE to 68 CE
The other has not yet come. And when he comes, he must continue a short time.
7. Galba 68 CE to 69 CE
(Galba was Caesar for only 7 months)
=========================
Siege of Jerusalem
66 CE to 73 CE
Destruction of Jerusalem
70 CE
Final Destruction at Massada
73 CE
=======================================
Revelation 17:
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the ,eighth and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
VESPASIAN
69 CE to 79 CE
=============================
In Summary
"Revelation was the swan song of the Militant Jewish Christianity. When Jerusalem was destroyed, when Rome waxed greater and more powerful, when the *False Prophet gained more and more followers, when the book itself was proved totally false within two years, when it became evident the Jewish Messiah-Christ would not come, the Hebrew Christians lost their virility and their cult faded under the combined assault of orthodox Judaism and of ** Gentile Christianity".
The Religion of the Occident
The Apostle Paul was likely, to the Jewish Christians, the False Prophet
*The Apostle Paul
Letter Ephesian Church in Revelation
To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands. ‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call apostles and are not, and found them to be false.
2 Timothy 1:15 Paul laments...
"You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes."
The "Province of Asia, Western Turkey, was the area where the Seven Churches were located. To the Jewish Christians to whom the Book of Revelation was written, Vespasian was the Beast and the Apostle Paul, the False Prophet. Both would go into the Lake of Fire. However, both Rome and the Apostle Paul won the day and all the days to come.
** Pauline Gentile Christianity
IMHO
31 comments:
Isn't it interesting how the atheist's mind works?
MAN doesn't understand or misinterprets the Bible and that makes God and His word the problem. And because both God and the Bible are wrong, the atheist (MAN), who doesn't believe in either, is right and knows the correct intent and interpretation!
That sounds about right.
OK Dennis.
Blogger BP8 said...
Isn't it interesting how the atheist's mind works?
====================
In what way is explaining the issues in Revelation, how it related to those to whom it was actually written and not projecting it ahead 2000 years making it mean what it did not mean in it's original context "make God and "His word a problem" or making the Bible wrong? Wrong how? This is a common explanation of the times and the text that actually fits it's meaning and historical context.
The post states,
"Bible prophecy is not something that projects thousands of years into the future"?
" the book itself was proved totally false within 2 years"??
DD --"this is a common explanation "??
Come on! We all know that in the evangelical world this is NOT the most common explanation on Revelation and prophecy but a minority opinion and explanation at best.
I'm considering the source!
With Passover approaching, I was expecting fake-atheist Dennis to write articles like this one. Holy days are always a reminder to apostates that they are heading for the lake of fire, while their betters are heading for eternal life. This realization must be very painful to these non-winners.
It is fascinating to think that John of Patmos saw the beginning of the Caesars and the demise of the Republic as a monstrous beast. It certainly was not a pretty transition.
I have no idea if that was the writer's intent, of course, but it makes at least a degree of sense.
Part One
1. How the A-theist PROVES the Bible TRUE
Ever wonder why the A-theist hates the Bible? Well, here are several dozen reasons. Could it have anything to do with a perfect description of them today? You think?
From the Book of Psalms:
How the A-theist PROVES the Bible TRUE, Every Day!
“Because the knowledge of Elohim may be seen IN them Elohim having made it clear to them.” Romans 1:19
Someone knew in advance, thousands of years ago, there would be a certain kind of individual today. Under inspiration they wrote about these individuals, way before they ever came on the scene.
In all historical records found, those mentioning the a-theist, or what we call atheist today, never described an a-theist as one who denied the existence of all deity. A-theists then only denied the “gods” of others. In fact, the ancient peoples of Rome called Christians “a-theists.” Yet, today, following a modern trend set by the Greek philosophers, and others, the modern a-theist began to appear. Still, not till the modern era did the militant a-theist appear who actually denied the existence of ANY deity. This, is the a-theist described in the Bible. This modern day a-theist was foretold in the Bible thousands of years ago, before they ever existed in the modern form. AND, this is the a-theist one finds today posting on various blogs, on HP, and other Internet sites. So, we salute you, the a-theist today who, with every single post, proves beyond any doubt the Bible was and is accurate. You are the modern proof of the existence of YHWH and the proof the Bible is true, and does make accurate forecasts.
With that in mind, here are Biblical descriptions of the militant hard nosed unconverted a-theist we see today:
1
Not so the UNGODLY! No, they are like chaff swept away by the wind; i.e fantasies 1:4
… many are saying of me, ‘There is no help for him in Elohim.’ 3:2
Proud men, how long will you be so misguided, loving to deal in libels, eager on vain intrigues? 4:2
For in their talk there is not truth, their hearts are deep with mischief, their throats are open graves — smooth-tongued deceivers!. 5:9
the scoundrel is alive with malice, hatching mischief and deception;. 7:14
The UNGODLY are haughty and harry the downtrodden — 10:2
The UNGODLY boasts of his rapacity; the plunderer disowns, despises YHWH. 10:3
he thinks in his insolence, ‘Elohim never punishes’; 10:4
his thoughts amount to this, ‘There is no Elohim at all’; 10:4
he laughs at any who oppose him, thinking he can never fail, never come to grief. 10:6
His talk is all of perjury and craft, mischief and injury slip from his tongue. 10:7
I'm your huckleberry.
"You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes."
The issue here, as always, is interpretation. The data is spare. The partial vacuum may be filled in many ways. My view, in short, is that Paul was using hyperbole. He was able to do this because Timothy knew the situation and knew its actual scope. “All” had not forsaken Paul. Names of loyal men from Asia (Western Turkey in modern parlance) are mentioned in 1 and 2 Timothy. We need to cut Paul some slack. He was incarcerated and facing likely execution.
No doubt there was a large anti-Paul movement afoot in Asia. We do not know if this was personal or theological or both. We have no data that defines its limits.. We can deduce that Phygelus and Hermogenes were leaders in this movement. They were worth a mention by Paul. What we do know incontrovertibly is that nobody now, after centuries, knows what Phygelus and Hermogenes believed or even who they were. And, on the other hand, Pauline theology is the backbone of the New Testament Ekklesia. If Paul could have foreseen the future, his concernss would have been allayed.
The rest of the post deals with Revelation. The interpretations there are a multitude. I take the partial preterist approach. Also, I know that half the church back in days when the canon was being formed did not believe Revelation was scripture. So, it did not come to the canon with a huge endorsement. Those statements cover most of my view of Revelation. To me, the doughty assertion that Revelation is marred by failed prophecy is suspect. Exegeting something that has such a plethora of interpretations is sure to be rejected by most. But you will be a daisy if you do.
On the one hand, I believe that the collective now known as "Armstrongism" has taken the Book of Revelation for a test drive, and has found it to be completely irrelevant to our own current times, regardless of vigorous and constant flame fanning.
One can take isolated elements of Revelation and perceive limited similarities to our own times. As an example, global warming is undeniably mentioned in Revelation. However, it is depicted as a supernatural event orchestrated by Father God, and not a consequence of human malpractices in stewardship bringing on their own cumulative punishments. Our own unwitting participation in the Holocene Extinction has also already killed 1/3 of the creatures of the sea.
Disease epidemics are also foretold. They seem to be more on the scale of the Black Plague, or Bubonic Plague of the 14th Century than of AIDS, Covid 19, hanta virus, polio, tuberculosis, or various other current pathologies which have been largely controlled by medical science. Each of our modern diseases, as they emerged, were cheered on by Armstrongists seeking validation of their theory that the Books of Daniel and Revelation were written for our times. There is even theory in some quarters that man now has the ability to create diseases and vaccines in laboratories for international geopolitical purposes, such as non-warlike retaliation for tariffs. The disease epidemics in Revelation are not the types that can be controlled by man's medical advances.
To man's credit, once "the bomb" was tested, and its scale of devastation and the relative permanence of the radioactivity left by such bombings were known, the bomb was not considered to be an acceptable alternative, and has not been used. Weapons are, however, stored as a deterrent, so they remain as an existential threat.
The Armstrongist has fully expected both martyrdom and protection. This, courtesy of Herbert W. Armstrong's version of a God. The personalities of members have been warped and distorted, with many fears and desires for validation and retribution at the expense of nonmembers as a consequence of their interpretation of prophecy. Prophecy has been used to fuel xenophobia and racism, which by the way, are not good family values.
"Wait and see! We will be proven right in the end! God's just delayed it all!" is wishful thinking, and manipulative fear mongering. Even those of us who have seen the ridiculousness of the Armstrong prophecy mold occasionally wonder "What if....." I may yet live to break open the carton and open a pack of my Newports towards the end of November over an event that isn't even in Revelation. But for now, they are safely stored on a closet shelf.
The ONE IS explanation by the modern COGS that this refers to the Mussolini/ Hitler alliance, and that "IS" refers to HWA understanding this back in the 1930s is a very twisted and self serving interpretation.
An Occam's Razor approach to this would be the one stated in the article. However, this would conflict with nearly all COG groups that insist that Revelation was written in the 90s AD, instead of before the Fall of the Temple.
Why not Revelation written, say, shortly before Nero's death in 68 BC during the besiege of Jerusalem? And Paul didn't have to include himself in the "we who are remaining alive"..... And were the 1335 days - Daniel 12:12, days of vengeance - Luke 21:22, from Av 10, 70 AD when the temple was destroyed to Nisan 15,74 AD when occurred the Masada massacre - Josephus, VII,IX,1?
Wonders of their own mind.
It just struck me as I was rereading and digesting it for the third time, that Herbert W. Armstrong could have used this material in church articles and classes at Ambassador College to "prove" that the Jewish Christians were correct in their tenacity to the holy days and rituals of the Torah.
But, alas! While it supported HWA's contention that the gospel he (HWA) preached had not been preached for over 1900 years (alleged time accurate during HWA's lifetime), it would have been problematic to HWA in other, insurmountable ways.
He would have needed to embrace actual history and admit that the Catholic Church is directly descended from the work of Apostle Paul and his gentile churches, which would have set off a sequence of other devastating revisions. Those would have required HWA to reject Paul, and to relegate 1/3 of the New Testament to the status of the apocryohal Christian literature which did not make the cut for the Canon.
It would also have required HWA to reject his own hook, that we are living in the times immediately preceding the events forecast by John of Patmos, aa described in Revelation.
This rejection of Revelation would have been contrary to HWA's belief that the events in Daniel and Revelation are parallel in their description of the end times. Since HWA weighted his teachings mostly from an Old Testament perspective, he might have retained elements of his hook, but it would have lost half of its impact.
Well, there are certainly enough issues with the Armstrongist view of Revelation to give anyone pause, I suppose. Especially with their handling of chapters two, three and twelve, and there are probably more problems
I'm not thinking of at the moment.
So, does HWA's failed prophecies extend to his core structure - the doctines? Faulty prophecies = faulty doctrines = uninspired HWA. Specifically the Holy Days = Faulty Plan of Salvation model.
Well, 8:03, HWA himself linked the two inexorably together, if you consider him to be the expert on Armstrongism. He stated many times that it was because the WCG had the correct doctrines and observed them properly that God trusted the ministers and church to the extent of revealing the proper understanding of prophecy to them. He made a careful distinction between his church and all of the Sunday-keeping, pork-eating, allegedly pagan holiday keeping Christians who are far more numerous than the WCG ever was.
If HWA was correct with that correlation, then somehow, based on all the false prophesies, something has turned out to be wrong. It may have been that he got the doctrines wrong, it could be his bedtime adventures with Dorothy, his method of church governance which quenches the Holy Spirit, or perhaps another factor. But his understanding of the events, the timeline for them, or extrabiblical theories such as six thousand years for man, church eras, or even the Olivet discourse obviously have him way out of kilter. And of course his heirs will only reexamine the mathmatics, when math has nothing to do with it, or Jesus would have known the precise time of His return.
8.03 pm, you write like a Pharisee. What was the "core structure" in the church of Herb? Members were robbed of their natural rights and adult responsibilities by Herb's Gestapo ministry. How does one grow if robbed of the necessarily tools and freedom required? Herb infantilized his membership so that he could get his jollies playing church.
What value are your doctrines, holy days, restored truths, understanding of God's holy days etc, if members are effectively robbed of their lives and ability to build the mind of God?
Forget about seeing your Herb-the-great in the kingdom. You are just as deluded as he was with his boastful claim of being number three in the kingdom.
Probably the worst mistranslation ever is the word "feasts" in Lev 23:2 which gives rise to the deception of "seven feasts" which gives rise to the deception of two feasts in the spring of the year which gives rise to the deeply rooted deception of one feast on the 14th and the other feast 15th-21st which gives rise to transgressing God's law which is one feast Nisan 14-20 seven days in length and 3 feasts altogether as listed in Ex 23:14-16 and three sabbath/sabbathons on Tishri 1, 10, 22 which times of feasts and sabbath/sabbathons are all "fixed times" which should be the translation in Lev 23:2 as in the Tanakh. The first translator using the English word "feasts" should be tarred and feathered and put in solitary confinement for the time period from Nisan 14 to Tishri 22 in one year. IMO.
An interesting commentary you present on this chapter 17 of Revelation.
One problem we ought to grapple with is some part of the vision re the "beast" appears to refer to the past (5 fallen) - if this be so they were not at the time of John rather earlier?
- one other set of words seems to refer to a part of the beast being extant at time of writing ''one is'' , and then one seems future ''one is yet to come''? - at time of John writing.?
There is the `verse 14 : ''They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.” which many see as an end time setting?
In the v 18 re the woman that sitteth many sects apply it to Rome - however it may refer to Babylon being the symbol of humanity's ambition to dethrone God and rule the earth. "Babel," the Hebrew word for Babylon being the story of the Tower of Babel (Genesis 11)
It is these kind of verses that make it enigmatic like Daniel I think much of Revelation is hidden. Armstrong's cut and paste views won't help a believer seeking some understanding this much is certain.
When we studied this at Embarassing College, the HWA interpretation was based on world empires, not the Caesars. And he played a game of
"first there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is" with the Roman Empire and today's Europe.
Monday, March 25, 2024 at 8:21:00 PM PDT
It was all going really swimmingly for Herbert Armstrong when the ten countries came to be members of the European Community in 1981. People were convinced end was near and prophecy on track. The euphoria didn't last long though because five years later in 1986 it was 12 and now its 27?
well he had Brexit to look forward to
WOWFJI, Monday, March 25, 2024 at 2:35:00 PM PDT, said:
"...One problem we ought to grapple with is some part of the vision re the "beast" appears to refer to the past (5 fallen) - if this be so they were not at the time of John rather earlier?
- one other set of words seems to refer to a part of the beast being extant at time of writing ''one is'' , and then one seems future ''one is yet to come''? - at time of John writing.?
******
WOWFJI, very interesting questions. KJV follows for Rev 17:10-17
Revelation 17:10 "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.
:17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."
The other is not yet come is Gog, as the 7th head, will not be active until Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit, and that is centuries away from today.
The "one is," 6th head of the beast, during the time of John's writing these verses, is none other than the Roman Empire
Five are fallen? Which heads are those?
5th Greco-Macedonian Empire
4th Medo-Persian Empire
3rd Babylonian-Chaldean Empire
2nd Assyrian Empire
1st head of the beast: Egyptian Empire
Who will defy what it says in verse 17, and say or make what is said there not happen? What happened to free choice, free will, free moral agency: won't those things come into play?
Why 1,000 years? God said so.
Will God's will be fulfilled or not regarding that 1,000 years, the 10 horns = the 10 kings? Will they really give their power and strength to some beast?
Will any of the former WCG hirelings, driven by another spirit, of the scattered xcogs speak the truth in love and believe those scriptures, or will they continue to preach/teach other theories regarding another Jesus, another gospel, another Gog, even a Mickey Mouse Millennium as many still await the "very soon" return of a Jesus to reign on earth?
Time will tell...
John
John,
How do you come up with Gog as the seventh head? Everyone knows that the 7th head is based out of Europe.
And who is the woman that is supported by this beast in Rev 17?
Any idea who the 8th is in 17:11? Most don't know.
Why do you keep mocking the millenium? What? You can't read Rev 20:4-6?
Anon, Friday, March 29, 2024 at 1:52:00 PM PDT, said:
"...John,
How do you come up with Gog as the seventh head? Everyone knows that the 7th head is based out of Europe..."
******
Anon, who is "everyone?"
Where in the Bible did everyone find the word "Europe?"
I didn't come up with Gog being the 7th head, but by what theory does everyone know "that the 7th head is based out of Europe?" Is that theory based on a counterfeit, a satanic counterfeit? We live under the reign of Satan in his world, and that thing loves to deceive all humanity...including God's Church.
How long will Satan be loosed when that vile, evil, thing exits from the pit?
A little season.
How long was the 7th head, Gog, going to be active?
A short space.
The 8th head is of the previous 7 heads.
After the 6th head, Rome, when did the 7th head exist for that short space?
You can't find it.
Jesus Christ came on the scene, and spiritual Israel, God's Church came into existence and began to grow, so where was Satan going to go? You know what happened to the temple, etc.
Revelation 2-3 tells you where Satan was active for the past 2,000 years. Still no short space. He has a pit-stop for a 1,000 years.
Gog will be that 7th head, but over a 1,000 years from now...and FWIIW, Jesus Christ, unless it is "another Jesus," will not be residing in Jerusalem when it is taken over when Satan is again allowed to deceive the entire world, yes, even cause wars again...that's for those seeking a time where war is never learned again. If Jesus Christ were in Jerusalem after the 1,000 years, near the end of that short/little time/season there would be no way Satan would succeed taking over Jerusalem and its inhabitants, but...
Time will tell.
John
John,
Be careful about defining a "short season" or "little space" because life in general is short and a thousand years with God is like a day.
You can't find the 7th head? So the prophecy jumps from the old Roman empire to Gog at the end of the millenium, a stretch of 3000 years??
Better get your facts straight if you wish to teach about prophecy.
You didn't tell me who the woman is who sits on this beast, the one who is drunk on the blood of the saints and martyrs (v6). What? You can't find her or the head from 476 AD to the present that committed these atrocities?
As for Gog, come on... Gog is going to be cannon fodder for the Lord, whether you believe he is coming at the end or before the millenium. And Satan doesn't succeed in taking over Jerusalem after the millenium because his rebel group gets burned up in the fire. (Rev 20:9). As for BEFORE the millenium, same story, annihilation. (Ezek 39)
John, you have some errors in your prophetic understanding. Many Christians, whether of the COGs or not, know that Christ is coming soon to establish His rule over the earth. He isn't coming after another thousand years, as you seem to think. Don't be deceived.
Anon, Tuesday, April 2, 2024 at 11:31:00 AM PDT, said:
"...John, you have some errors in your prophetic understanding. Many Christians, whether of the COGs or not, know that Christ is coming soon to establish His rule over the earth. He isn't coming after another thousand years, as you seem to think. Don't be deceived..."
******
Anon, you already have everything figured out and don't need to ask your questions as you already have the answers to them, but time will tell.
Christ has more than one coming. When He comes back at the beginning of that 1,000 years those resurrected meet Jesus Christ in the clouds. They don't meet down on earth. Revelation 5 and Revelation 20 do not speak about the same period of time, but those resurrected will follow that Lamb, but it won't be back to earth, but...
Time will tell...
John
John,
Right, those who have the anointing have "no need that any man should teach you" (1 Jn 2:27) because it leads us into all truth, the benefit of being a church member.
As for the coming of the Lord, yes, there is more than one coming -- the first one in 4 BC and the last one in our time.
LCG finally discovered that we are going up to heaven after all but we have to come back quickly because Israel has to be saved from its enemies and we must celebrate the FOT together on the earth. Look at Zech 14, "the Lord shall go forth to fight against those nations...", "His feet shall stand on the mount of Olives on THAT day...", etc. He won't rule from a million miles away. He'll be right there in the temple.
The timing of His coming in the clouds, the marriage supper, the distribution of rewards, the coming to earth are still misunderstood by many of us, ministers included.
Re LCG, I chuckle over these Pharisees; they mocked those who believed we are going to heaven and then after changing their doctrine they disfellowship one who disagrees that we are.
Anonymous Monday, March 25, 2024 at 11:12:00 AM PDT said...
Probably the worst mistranslation ever is the word "feasts" in Lev 23:2 which gives rise to the deception of "seven feasts" which gives rise to the deception of two feasts in the spring of the year which gives rise to the deeply rooted deception of one feast on the 14th and the other feast 15th-21st which gives rise to transgressing God's law which is one feast Nisan 14-20 seven days in length and 3 feasts altogether as listed in Ex 23:14-16 and three sabbath/sabbathons on Tishri 1, 10, 22 which times of feasts and sabbath/sabbathons are all "fixed times" which should be the translation in Lev 23:2 as in the Tanakh. The first translator using the English word "feasts" should be tarred and feathered and put in solitary confinement for the time period from Nisan 14 to Tishri 22 in one year. IMO.
-----
Interesting view. Also, to add I've learned that there were only 2 seasons in the Scriptures ie summer and winter (Gen 8:22) not the 4 we divide it into now (spring, summer, autumn/fall, winter). So my understanding of it now has also helped me understand why the June solstice and December solstice are called midsummer and midwinter respectively since looking at the seasons from a northern hemisphere perspective the March equinox starts early summer, mid May starts the middle of summer until the June solstice, which is the actual middle of the whole 6 month period of summer, and then mid July starts late summer until the September equinox. With the September equinox early winter begins until mid November when the middle of winter starts until the December solstice, which is the actual middle of the whole 6 month period of winter, and then mid January starts late winter until we return to the March equinox and the whole process starts again. Hence, the holy days and festivals occur essentially in either summer or winter scripturally speaking not spring and autumn/fall as the COGs always taught ie PO/ULB--early summer; Pentecost--either early summer or midsummer; Trumpets, Atonement, FOT, 8th Day--either late summer or early winter.
Thanks for thoughts on Feasts. We dutifully observed such thinking in our vanity it was something that impressed God. Nothing is further from the truth. And while impressing hearing sermons that added not one whit to our being lead by the Holy Spirit the Comforter send by Jesus - because it was too controlled by men of devious purpose.
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