The Sea of Galilee, a Location Where Jesus Preached about Gehenna
Annihilationism
Armstrongism and the Death of God
By Scout
My Dad, now deceased, fought in the Battle of the Rhineland in World War II. While he was mostly reticent about his involvement, he did from time to time pass something along. He told me about something that happened in a German city, whose name I do not now recall, that I found shocking as a youngster. He said that the Americans had hit the city with a rain of incendiaries that used white phosphorus. White phosphorus pieces from the explosions were embedded in the bodies of German civilians. White phosphorus burns in air and if smothered will re-ignite. The German civilians – men, women and children - jumped in the nearby river that passed through the city and the submersion in water stopped the white phosphorus from burning. Yet, they could not leave the river because the phosphorus would re-ignite. The Germans had no way to deal with this on a massive scale so German soldiers walked along the banks of the river and shot the civilians to end their misery. A scene out of hell. This conveys some of the emotional impact of annihilationism. The German civilians burned for a while and then they were executed. Death was a mercy. If one ascribes annihilationism to God, it is good to know something about it.
For people who persist in rejecting God, there is ultimate punishment. At least that is what many Christian and non-Christian religions teach. That punishment may take place in many forms. The most common form in Western Christianity is Eternal Conscious Torment in hellfire. But many reject this notion because it is difficult to believe that God would punish someone eternally for a finite number sins. So, in some quarters, the idea of annihilationism was promoted as a “kinder, gentler” form of finite punishment and some scriptures were gathered around it. Others, like many of the Millerite-derived denominations claim to exegete annihilationism from scripture. Herbert W. Armstrong taught annihilationism and it most likely came from the Church of God (Seventh Day). Here is a CG7 statement:
“At its (Millennium) conclusion, the unrighteous will be resurrected to suffer annihilation at the great white throne judgment” (Statement of Faith Church of God (Seventh Day), 2013.)
Ashes of the Wicked
See, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch… And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes (“dust”, Jewish Study Bible) under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 4:1, NRSV)
There is nothing in the surrounding context of this scripture that would make us think that the topic of eternal punishment is being addressed. Bodies are burned but we are not given any data on the state of the pneuma or spirit. This is certainly a punishment but it is a leap to convert it into an eternal punishment dispensed at the final Judgement. The text is simply talking about good and bad people on this earth and what happens to them in a particular case in history. No doubt some of the German civilians written about earlier eventually became ashes under the feet of American soldiers without any implication of eschatological punishment. The scripture says a lot by what it does not say.
Connecting this passage with Gehenna in the New Testament is dubious prooftext. Neither the passage in Malachi nor the instances of Gehenna in the New Testament seem to be focused on the final Judgement. To concoct a connection is to compound misinterpretation. Dr. Eitan Bar (His book titled “Hellfire Deconstructed: An In-Depth Study of the Bible Verses About Hell” contains a chapter on the Jewish view of Gehenna and how Jesus used the example of Gehenna.) wrote the following about the concept Gehenna at the time of Jesus:
The term "Gehenna," used by Jesus in the New Testament as a metaphor to describe the condition of suffering and divine consequences, was understood by Jews of the first and second centuries primarily as symbolizing harsh consequences rather than a destination in the afterlife.
Other current research indicates that Gehenna was a deep ravine to the south and west of Jerusalem. The archaeological evidence concerning its ancient use is controversial and inconclusive. The “garbage dump” characterization is apparently a Rabbinic creation from the Middle Ages. The literary motif shows it to be a place of an undesirable or regrettable death.
The Death of God: An Objection to Annihilationism
There is only one way that God can die. This death is not a cessation of being but a cessation of being sentiently perceived. While both would involve the deletion of God from the picture, the former is impossible but the latter is not. Here is a simplified thought experiment. Consider the microcosm consisting of God and one person. In this little world there is a dual perspective where God is aware of the person and the person is aware of God. If God destroys the person utterly, the microcosm ceases to exist. And the person is no longer aware of God. So, in that loss of awareness, God also ceases to exist. In the extinction of the life of a God-aware sentient being, God becomes extinct also.
I do not believe that God intends ever to become extinct in any way, either literally or in effect. He does not create sentient beings with the expectation that they will ever go into dissolution. Or that he would, in effect, go into dissolution through the existential loss of a sentient being. This is the weakness of annihilationism. It is a sword that cuts in both directions. If God is the father of all, then the loss of a sentient being is a great tragedy. But it is more than that; it is a defeat of God. In his absolute state, God failed to rescue someone who was important to him.
For me, the annihilation model does not work. I think it is absurd to believe that God can be trammeled. Some who reject God may be beaten with few stripes and other with many as a process of reformation but it is illogical that the absolute God would completely lose anyone to total dissolution.
The Summation
This opinion piece is apophatic. I am not declaring the details of what happens to people who persist in rejecting God, but what that outcome is not. For instance, it is not the Millerite idea of annihilationism because that idea does not reflect the divine nature. It does not fit with the Jesus who clearly identifies his purpose and charter. He says, “Behold, I am making all things new.” The idea that rendering a human being non-existent is somehow making something new is cynical. God does not deal in cynicism. God sits on the throne of grace. We must navigate by that star.
21 comments:
Scout,
We have had this discussion before, and I'm still not convinced. I think that there are too many passages of Scripture which suggest annihilationism for your logic to prove true. As I've indicated in times past, I believe that the number of folks who will have to face this fate has got to be relatively small. A large number would imply the failure of God's plan to save humankind from its sins and death. It could even be interpreted to suggest insufficiency in God's love. The Bible indicates that evil, suffering, and death are to be completely eliminated from the new heavens and the new earth. The continued existence of any being infected with evil or in a state of suffering anywhere would make that a lie. Scripture relates that death is real, and that the second death is permanent. How do we get around these clear statements? Doesn't your thesis make evil, suffering, and death an illusion?
Many movies and cartoons depict everyone appearing after death in a courtroom with God pronouncing judgement. I don't believe that's true.
I believe that everyone is constantly being judged, and either will or will not be resurrected to immortality. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" applies to those baptised members who are not resurrected to meet Christ in the clouds at his return. These will be rounded up, killed, and thrown into a furnace.
The death in "the wages of sin is death" is a category that includes levels of harm, including physical and eternal death.
My last minister did me great harm, so God comforted me by informing me that he won't be in the kingdom. So eternal death is very real.
Miller Jones:
I respect your viewpoint. Many hold your viewpoint. My principal approach is to critique annihilationism rather than advocate for an alternative. So, I will sound a few counterpoints to the annihilationist views that you raise.
It is possible that God created everyone to be salvable. That salvation is the rational, self-beneficial choice for everyone. If someone knows what salvation is about and yet rejects it, then that person is irrational and pathological and is in need of healing not annihilation.
The second death may be a stage beyond the punitive but rehabilitative nature of life after the second resurrection. Some people may not respond to the rehabilitation of life after the second resurrection. They were beaten with few stripes and it did not rehabilitate them. The next step in then the second death. Many stripes for these people. This is not a literal death but an allegorical death that refers to the ending of pride that stands in the way of salvation. Revelation 20:14 states that death itself is cast into the lake of fire and that the lake of fire is equated to the second death. This seems to be saying that the process of the second death will result in the elimination of death as a phenomenon. The devil and the false prophet will be cast into the lake of fire (the second death) and they do not die. These scriptures do not seem to be speaking about physical burning of human beings to terminate their existence utterly.
I don’t think any of this makes evil, suffering and death unreal. As Christians we can die a real death and yet be resurrected from it. If we define death as eternal non-existence then Jesus did not actually die for our sins. Some people hold that view.
These are counterpoints that some would assert in response to annihilationism. Most Christians who believe in hell, believe in Eternal Conscious Torment. Annihilationism is a view held by a minority who are Seventh Day Adventists, Armstrongites, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christadelphians. Then yet a much smaller number hold to evangelical or trinitarian universalism.
Scout
We are told that Jesus "tasted death for everyone". Since it is appointed for all to die once, what does that mean? Also, what " died" when Jesus died? As with everyone, His pneuma went to God, so was it just the body that died? Scripture says, whatever constitutes "Jesus" in the mind of God died for our sins. Jesus emphatically states, "I am He that lives and WAS DEAD" (Revelation 1:18).
I'm in a state of flux. I agree with both Scout and Lonnie. If there is a legitimate punishment for the WICKED (whomever according to God falls into that category), then annihilationism is that fate! Yet, I believe that God will go to the greatest of lengths to save all of humanity.
Paul, the chief of sinners by his own testimony, was a lost cause. His mind was set. He had heard the best sermons of all time, Jesus, Peter, Stephen, and had no interest. THEN the living Christ appeared to him personally and that changed everything. A personal confrontation is what it took to convert the Apostle Paul. Paul called this experience "A pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him unto life everlasting" (1 Timothy 1:15-16).
When you think about it, Scout, Lonnie and myself would all be considered heretics by the mainstream because of this belief. That would be obvious to anyone who witnessed the firestorm created by Kirk Cameron when he came out and questioned the orthodox interpretation of "hell" in favor of annihilationism. He was hit with both barrels. A funny thing happened though. As time and discussion went on through additional podcasts and peoples comments, more and more (both clergy and laity) started expressing favor to the idea of annihilationism verses endless conscious torment as being the most plausible way to interpret all the scriptural testimony. For many, It has become somewhat of a battleground over the righteousness and character of God and the overall accuracy of Scripture.
If I have to choose between eternal conscious torment and annihilationism, I would have to go with the latter. But like Scout, when the time comes, for humanity I am hoping it's not needed.
God doesn't save anyone. He offers salvation, hoping everyone will accept it. He knows, however, that many will reject it, preferring their own ways over His. Their end is total destruction.
BP8 7:22 wrote, “Yet, I believe that God will go to the greatest of lengths to save all of humanity.”
I appreciate your full comment but would like to respond to the single statement above. I believe that God put into every person a desire to seek Good with a capital G – Good in its largest meaning. Some people do not know what Good is but they follow their natural behavioral programming to seek anyway. Hitler attacked Poland because he thought that would be Good by some set of idiosyncratic conditions. Hitler was seeking as God intended but not with understanding.
It is this strong longing for Good (Sehnsucht as C.S. Lewis called it) that God can use to draw every rational being to him. There are people who do not seek good. They could be classed as sociopaths or psychopaths or just insane. Annihilation is not the remedy for these people – healing is.
C.S. Lewis emphasized the idea that because God has granted a person free will, then the person must either choose to do good or choose to do evil. So, whether or not we get consigned to hell is up to us. It is our choice. Though I have long been a fan of Lewis, I do not agree with him on this point. None of us have the free will he refers to. We are all products of genetics and environment. We are instantiated with a bunch of parameters already loaded. It is the working of God that brings about our salvation not our own exercise of so-called free will.
I would suggest that God does not annihilate people who want to seek good but don’t know the path (an educational problem) or who are overtaken by impeding inheritance and environment. Or both – which is most of us. And there is no reason to believe that God will not go to the greatest lengths.
Scout
Scout
Well said, which is one of the reasons why I don't see a contradistinction with scriptures such as Zechariah 14:16-19, where Christ the King is establishing His authority over the profane, and using physical aspects of the law (with consequences) as teaching tools.
What many forget when discussing and objecting to this concept we propose (salvation for all) is, there will still be justice, judgement, and accountability to be considered. ALL will bend the knee, stand before the throne, give an account for their actions, and acknowledge the name and authority of the Lord and King Jesus Christ. But these elements too will be vital tools in changing the heart and bringing all to repentance.
There is another reason, besides exegesis and theology, why I have written about this topic. I believe that secular influences within the Christian movement, down through the centuries, have sought to weaponize Christian belief. This weaponization has resulted in the promotion of the angry God idea, the idea that Jesus must protect us from this angry God, the diminishment of grace, the inordinate emphasis on law (both Biblical and denominational), the idea that very few will be saved and the infernalist idea that the great mass of people will be subjected to hellfire. This brings about two principal results. It mis-characterizes God. And it creates an effective lever that the religious polity can use to control people.
What I am saying is that there is a continuous societal pressure to make God and Hell as gruesome and lurid as possible to promote vested interests. Traditional infernalist exegesis fits into this model. Annihilationism fits into this model. When Rob Bell published his book titled “Love Wins,” some people went postal. Someone challenged their cherished weapon. Don’t get me wrong. I do believe that there are genuine consequences, both tangible and intangible, for either indifference toward or opposition to God. But the consequences though punitive are intended to be rehabilitative or constructive in the end.
Scout
Secular influences?
Vested interests?
Cherished weapons?
Controlling people?
Scout, Scout. You are starting to sound like ME! That may not end well for you, lol.
Scout wrote:
"...Ashes of the Wicked
See, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble; the day that comes shall burn them up, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch… And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes (“dust”, Jewish Study Bible) under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts. (Malachi 4:1 , NRSV)
There is nothing in the surrounding context of this scripture that would make us think that the topic of eternal punishment is being addressed. Bodies are burned but we are not given any data on the state of the pneuma or spirit. This is certainly a punishment but it is a leap to convert it into an eternal punishment dispensed at the final Judgement. The text is simply talking about good and bad people on this earth and what happens to them in a particular case in history. No doubt some of the German civilians written about earlier eventually became ashes under the feet of American soldiers without any implication of eschatological punishment. The scripture says a lot by what it does not say...."
******
Yes, Scout, “the scripture says a lot by what it does not say."
For example, the text of Malachi 4:1 does not say that it is: "...simply talking about good and bad people on this earth and what happens to them in a particular case in history..."
You have speculated there. You have speculated that the wicked refers to people, and the scripture does not say that. Wasn’t Jesus Christ, because of His God’s/Father’s love, sent to save the world, and not to condemn the world?
More of your speculation occurs in your next sentence where you wrote: "...No doubt some of the German civilians written about earlier eventually became ashes under the feet of American soldiers without any implication of eschatological punishment...."
FWIIW, HWA may have written or said that about Germans/Americans, but it's not in the text; that is speculation: whatever the source. That scripture did not say that.
Is it even remotely possible that "the wicked" of Mal 4:1 may be referring to some evil spirit beings (2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 25:41, 46) that were made to be destroyed…, but eventually annihilated (Isaiah 27:1; Ezekiel 28:19)?
Time will tell...
John
Another reason I have written on this topic is that the misunderstanding of an infernalist hell can be inadvertently abusive. This is not weaponization as such. It is rather the bumbling that happens because someone does not have and understanding of the issues concerning hell or a well-considered theology of hell. The idea of an infernalist hell cannot be bandied about lightly. It is like nitroglycerine.
An example of this is an event that I personally witnessed. I have mentioned this before. My wife and I were attending WCG services back in the last century in a large church in the Midwest. I do not recall the principal topic of the WCG minister (He was an AC trained minister and he was a preaching elder or above.) And he stated that people with introverted personalities would not receive salvation. His reasoning was that God must have a personality to work with in order to save someone and introverts had no personality. I was appalled at this but nobody in the audience seemed to blink. When we fellowshipped after the service, nobody I spoke with mentioned this outrageous statement. Yet, this meme likely went smoothly into the annihilationist mythology that these people believed in.
Introverts are people who find personal interaction to require energy. Extraverts are people who find interacting with others to be something that revs them up. Introverts need to have some alone time to recharge their psychic batteries after a lot of interaction. Extraverts do not seem to have this requirement. These are generalizations. I am not a psychologist. Just what I have read. My guess is that extraverts do not understand why Jesus had to go off by himself once in a while to get away from the crowd. It is likely that extraverts never do that and probably regard it as odd. Just one of those odd things that Jesus did. Many people I met at Ambassador College Big Sandy were extraverted, salesman type.
It would be easy to concoct an anti-extravert meme. One could assert that extraverts are not reflective and do not consider issues carefully. They are always too busy with interaction with others to contemplate. Hence, wherever they are involved, errors will proliferate. But it still seems a stretch into horror to say that God is going to annihilate them all.
The assertion of the WCG minister that introverts could not receive salvation is, of course, outrageous and unhinged. I think that if the people in the congregation had had a heart, they would have recognized this. He did not explain what theology he would put behind his observation. In his world, when annihilation happens at the Eschaton, it will include not only the evil but also the introverted – all the discardable people. I don’t know what splinter group the guy ended up in.
Scout
John 7:10 wrote, “HWA may have written or said that about Germans/Americans, but it's not in the text”
Sorry, I forgot that you and others were indoctrinated with Armstrongism and would see the Germans in this light. I did not mean that I felt that the Germans in my example were a fulfillment of the scripture about ashes underfoot in Malachi. I do not believe they were. My only point is that being incinerated and reduced to ashes does not mean that this is a matter of eternal judgement. That’s all. In fact, that idea is absurd. Would Jesus incinerate the wicked for eternity and then have the righteous go out and stomp on their ashes? That would be callous and unloving. In this putative scenario, the wicked are just as much children of God as the righteous. Who wants to dance on their ashes?
“Evil spirit beings?” I see you have some speculation of your own. What kind of ashes do spirit beings leave?
Scout
1963 was the first time my dad and myself attended a WCG service in Indianapolis. I was 10 years old. My mother was still reeling from her experience of several years of following Jim Jones, who was in the process of moving his headquarters to San Francisco. We had to put her in an asylum for a few months to keep her from leaving Indianapolis and following him to California.
When she finally got out, she was still mentally unstable. But she , being a churchaholic, had a desire to attend church. One of the first things she heard out of the pulpit was a minister saying, "those that smoke will not be in the kingdom of God". They're lost, no salvation! She was a smoker trying to quit, and in that fragile state of mind, it was devastating.
Like Scout's experience, nobody else seemed to blink. It was just another one of those outrageous and unhinged remarks that flowed freely out of the mouth of the self righteous.
Scout 7:53 said: “One could assert that extroverts are not reflective and do not consider issues carefully. They are always too busy with interaction with others to contemplate. Hence, wherever they are involved, errors will proliferate.”
Makes me think of the apt quote from the 2026 film A Great Awakening in which Franklin answers Hamilton thus: “Well... I believe, Mr Hamilton, that... he that speaks much is much mistaken.” lol
Anon, aka Scout, Sunday, June 21, 2026 at 12:35:37 PM PDT inquired:
"...Evil spirit beings?” I see you have some speculation of your own. What kind of ashes do spirit beings leave?
******
Scout, you are asking the wrong person. Are you lacking faith that God knows and has a "formula" for destroying Satan and converting it to ashes? God knows all about spirit; we don't. Do you think, and believe, that God lied to us?
I have no doubt that you realize that Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 give us information regarding an evil spirit being. For example:
Ezekiel 28:18 "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."
Scout, where is the speculation in that verse? Did God lie to us? Will He fulfill the words of that scripture or not?
It's okay if you are unable to believe those words at this time, because God will make it evident to all later after that short/little time/season beyond the Mickey Mouse Millennium.
Now, if and when you finally accept that the scripture of verse 18 does not contain speculation, you may then go further and think about the following words of the scripture in verse 19.
:19 "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more."
People may not be astonished at this evil spirit (Heb 2:14-15; I John 3:8, 12) being and the bondage and death it causes in people's lives today, but shall they be astonished at this vile evil thing later, or did God lie again to us?
Time will tell...
John
BP8
One of the men God used powerfully in the Christian Movement was C.S. Lewis. He smoked a pipe and drank beer. He tried to quit smoking but decided that for the sake of his attitude and his impact on other people, he would be best to just go on smoking.
Smoking is a habit that is destructive to your health. And should be considered in that light. But so is drinking alcohol in any quantity. Alcohol was once thought to be good for you in small quantities but now is recognized as a neurotoxin.
This is a much more complicated issue than one would think. But sometimes the pulpit does not recognize nuance. Especially, if the minister is condemning a particular habit, he does not happen to have.
Scout
It's funny. I had smoked in high school. I had my last cigarette for a while on the plane to Pasadena for Ambassador College. And then when everything fell apart in 1975, many of the people who left at the same time smoked at our parties and such, and I started again. The church was the only reason any of us had quit. Then, in the early '80s, as I realized that there were other deeper, more relevant reasons for not smoking, I quit for good. It stuck, too. My girlfriend from the ''80s smoked all the time we were together, and I never was even tempted. I also never preached to her about quitting. I became a nonsmoker for solid, rational reasons, and they stuck. Most people who do successfully quit have come to certain very solid realizations.
I had also noticed a lot of the people I partied with getting themselves in trouble with alcohol, smacking up cars, building crappy reputations at work, and some even ending up in rehab. To me, instability of any kind has always been one of those self-induced things, destructive and therefore illogical. That which enslaves you controls you and ruins your life. The way my mind works, I've always equated things that would potentially enslave me with the slavery experienced in Armstrongism. Alcoholism would be very similar to being an Armstrongoholic. Therefore, I determined to never allow it to get control over me. I do enjoy an occasional beer, but never to the extent of the old party days in my twenties, as we partied in the aftermath of the WCG.
I hope some of the people I used to know took a good hard look at themselves and asserted control over their bad personal habits. It's not that hard if we really put our minds to it!
The preceding has been a public service message from the National Broadcorping Castration. Hic! (Just kidding!)
BB
An interesting backstory to follow up on my mother's relationship with Jim Jones that you old timers might appreciate, for the parallels between Jones and Armstrong are striking.
Mom was a Kentucky girl and part of a large family. She grew up in tobacco country where everybody smoked, even her dad who was a Baptist minister. After high school several of her siblings worked for the major cigarette companies in Louisville. Smoking was "life" in the 50's and 60's. Of all the kids mom was the most susceptible to the fire and brimstone brand of Baptist preaching, which was the big motivator back then. Jones had his version of that as did the Armstrongs. Since Grandpa was an expert at it, out of fear, "church" became a huge focal point in her life, which was detrimental to her mental state.
Her oldest sister was the first to leave home and move to Indianapolis. The old saying was, the 3 R's Kentucky children learned in school were reading, (w)riting, and route 31 north! That's where the jobs were. It was there she and her husband somehow hooked up with Jim Jones in the infancy of his empire, which put both in positions to rise in the ranks. The sister was not overly religious but an opportunist. In the WCG they would have resembled a super deacon and deaconesss. You all remember the type. When mom moved to Indy the sister recruited her into Jones's organization for, like most churches, he needed numbers and funds.
The similarities between Jones and HWA are many. Both were top down governments, the "true" movement. Both were the Apostles and both had their enforcers ( which included the sister and husband) to control the sheep. Both had personality complexes, which is why Jones moved from Indy to San Francisco then to South American. He even referred to it as a "place of Safety".
Mom was a faithful follower, even though at this point in time, was borderline insane. We were able to keep her from following Jones around the world by locking her up. The sister and family were not so lucky. Whether it was by choice or force, their power trip ended in the place of safety that wasn't safe after all. Another cult bites the dust but the lessons live on. Personally I never thought my time in the WCG ever came close to the atrocities I witnessed as a child in the Jones movement, but that's just me. The final chapter is yet to be written.
Both Jones and HWA (and prophet Bob) had "persecution" complexes, not personality complexes. I want to thank the autocorrect function on my tablet for that bit of confusion.
All lies. BP8 another fake name to add to the herd of fake names.
802
You need to be more specific. Otherwise we don't know what you are talking about. BTW, my persona is real and makes me identifiable. Yours, not so much!
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