Herbert Armstrong's Son-in-Law Drops the Bomb: "It's True. You Can Believe It."
The Incest Scandal That PCG and the HWA Worshippers Can't Erase
Article is by an ex-PCG member
In the twisted carnival of Armstrongism, where failed prophecies pile up like unpaid tithes and "God's Apostle" Herbert W. Armstrong is still treated like some untouchable saint by the splinter groups, every so often a voice from the past punches through the denial. This time, it's coming straight from the family. Not some bitter ex-member with an axe to grind, but the husband of Armstrong's own daughter Dorothy—Vern Mattson himself.
Back in 2010, a PCG member (yes, one of Gerald Flurry's loyal tithers) picked up the phone and dialed Sun City, Arizona. What followed was a conversation that should have nuked any remaining illusions about the "one true church" founded by a man who allegedly molested his own daughter for years. But of course, in Armstrong-land, facts are just "attacks from Satan" and reality is whatever the current "leader" says it is.
Here's the letter excerpt from that former COG member, left intact as a raw, unfiltered quote:
They found that at this time, Vern Mattson resided in Sun City, AZ., the year being 2010. Upon finding their number, my dad simply called them. Vern Mattson picked up. Dad just told him that he was a member of the Philadelphia Church of God and had been for a few years, raising his children in the Worldwide and in the PCG. Then, he just told him what my mom had heard and could these things be true? And, if they were, our dad's big question was, to Vern Mattson, why didn't someone, somebody in their family come out years ago, and tell the WCG, the truth?
First thing out of Vern Mattson's mouth was that he couldn't believe that there was now an actual college named after Herbert Armstrong in Oklahoma, and why would they do that? My dad's answer was, starting with Gerald Flurry, right on down, they firmly believed that he (Herbert W. Armstrong) was God's man. Whatever, over the years, that the leaders or members have heard or seen, no way would it or could it be believed! He told him, it's who they are, it's their lives, just like it was ours.
It's what our fathers have taught us and on down the line it goes!! My dad said it was pretty quiet on the other end there, for a bit. Then he heard the words, "Well, it's true. You can believe it."
He said he really had no problem talking about it now, because his wife Dottie [Dorothy], had just recently passed. He said it made him angry, sickened them for a long time, because of the thousands of people out there, in the WCG, that really had no idea! He told my dad things that evening, on the phone, that my dad felt responsible to tell me.
Vern Mattson said, over the years, with all that's out there now, on these computers, David Robinson's book, and plenty others written by his top ministers; he said, you got the Ambassador Report, full of documented facts and dates, exposing all the lies, mishandling of money, the incest with his own daughter. When I found out what he had done to my wife when she was just a young girl, you see we raised a daughter too, this was his own daughter, scaring and hurting her like that, over and over again, I was going to kill him!
I won't forget her words, years ago, when she asked me, how could a great and loving God go against Himself like that, by calling a man to raise up His "one and only true Church," a man that would hurt his own daughter like that?
To all the fathers out there who have a daughter, your little girl, how would you answer that?
I can tell you how Herbert Armstrong answered that, because of the last thing Vern Mattson told my dad on the phone that day, something he said, he has never forgotten. His wife, Dottie [Dorothy], told him of an incident that had happened back in the late `30s or so, that he could never ever repeat, but what he could say, was that she was pleading with her father one night, she wanted it to stop. (Herbert Armstrong had her in a hotel room, and her voice was overheard by others, and a person who worked there came knocking on their door, wondering if anything was wrong?) His reply, his answer--the man we so strongly believed in--his answer when my wife, his daughter, his little girl, cried out to him, was: "God gave you to me and it is my job to teach you. This will help you to be a better wife someday."
So there you are. Shocking Words That Herbert Armstrong Told His Daughter Dorothy
There you are, indeed. Straight from the mouth of the man who was married to Dorothy Armstrong Mattson. Not hearsay from some disgruntled employee, but confirmation from the guy who lived with the victim and raised a daughter of his own. Vern Mattson was ready to kill HWA when he found out. Can you blame him?
Think about that for a second! The same Herbert W. Armstrong who screamed about British Israelism, the "lost ten tribes," Saturday-only salvation, and tithing your way into the Kingdom allegedly took his own young daughter into a hotel room and "taught" her in ways that left her pleading for it to stop. When hotel staff heard her distress and knocked, Papa Herbert's pious response was essentially: "God gave her to me. This is for her own good. Future wife training."
How convenient. The Apostle of Incest turns divine calling into a license for familial rape. And this is the guy whose name still graces Herbert W. Armstrong College in Edmond, Oklahoma, where Flurry's crew indoctrinates the next generation of tithe-payers.
Vern Mattson couldn't believe they named a college after the man. Yeah, Vern, join the club. The cognitive dissonance in these groups is thicker than the Ambassador Auditorium's wool carpet. They heard the rumors for decades—David Robinson's book, the Ambassador Report with its documented facts, ex-ministers spilling the beans—and still doubled down: "No way could it be true! He's God's man!"
Meanwhile, Dorothy lived with the trauma. She questioned how a loving God could anoint such a monster to lead "His one and only true Church." Good question, Dottie. The answer, of course, is that He didn't. Armstrong was a charismatic grifter with a god complex, a serial adulterer (by his own admission in some accounts), and, according to his own son-in-law, an incestuous predator who used theology as a grooming tool.
This isn't ancient history to be swept under the "persecution" rug. This is the rotten foundation of the entire Armstrong empire—WCG, PCG, LCG, RCG, CCOG, and every other acronym still peddling the same legalistic poison while ignoring (or outright denying) the founder's personal corruption.
To all the current members and "ministers" still defending HWA: Vern Mattson, the man who married the victim and heard it from her own lips, said "It's true. You can believe it." Your wives, your daughters, your sons—how do you look them in the eye and keep sending in those tithes to prop up the legacy of a man who allegedly violated his own child?
The New Covenant offers real freedom from this garbage. No more idolizing dead false apostles. No more covering up evil with "don't judge God's servant" nonsense. Just Christ, grace, and the truth that sets people free.
Vern Mattson is gone now. Dorothy too. But the testimony remains. The wackiness, the hypocrisy, and the human wreckage of Armstrongism continue to be exposed—one phone call, one letter, one article at a time.
So there you are.
67 comments:
I was blind to what HWA really was until the lid was blown off after Joe sr. introduced salvation by grace back in 1995. It seemed that it was ok to read the Ambasador report and books written by ex-ministers that expose HWA and his phony agenda for what it was. Not long after I left the WCG even though I accepted Joe sr. changes fully. I wanted no part in a church headed by such a horrible scam artist even though he was long deceased and was succeded by someone who made positive doctrinal changes. My question is, has Joe sr., Joe jr. or the present leader of the GCI church ever admitted publicly that the HWA incest story was true or are the still to this day ignoring it and covering it up?
It would seem to me that it would have been to Joe sr. advantage to expose HWA for what he was and be entirely honest to the church when he announced the doctrinal changes in 1995. He may have convinced more people to accept his doctrinal changes.
The incest was a matter of public record as of Ramona's divorce proceedings against HWA, but many insiders know of it many years before that. If Joe Sr. admitted to HWA's incest, he would in effect be admitting that he had known and stayed silent about it for more than a decade, which would only have made things worse for him and his changes.
Some ex‑members contacted Vern Mattson, Herbert Armstrong’s son‑in‑law, who also confirmed the allegation.
However, there seems to be a slight error in the note because Mattson was not Dorothy’s husband. Dorothy was apparently married to aGeorge Meeker, and Meeker confirmed the allegation privately to former WCG ministers and ex‑members who personally knew the Meekers.
His confirmation circulated in the late 1970s and early 1980s, after Dorothy’s death (that is, he spoke of it sometime between 1977 and the early ’80s), and he explained why she never wished the matter to be made public.
Mattson’s confirmation came decades later, in 2010, as a family insider.
So we actually have two individuals - Meeker and Mattson - who confirmed the incest allegation.
It would seem that Dorothy herself and her husband during her lifetime, George Meeker never publicly spoke out, because Herbert was paying her an annual stipend, and understandably she would not have wanted to air such matters to the world. But her husband had no such qualms after her passing, nor after the death of the man he regarded as a “fake apostle.”
It seems the monthly stipend was about $200 a month for many years. While that amount may seem small today, in the late 1940s and 1950s it represented the equivalent of roughly $2,500–$3,000 per month in modern terms — a substantial sum for a woman with limited employment options and no desire to expose deeply personal trauma to the world.
The payments appear to have continued for the rest of her life and ceased upon her death in 1977, at the young age of 50. Only then did her husband feel free to speak openly, no longer constrained by Dorothy’s desire for privacy or by Armstrong’s financial influence. After her passing, her husband publicly rejected Armstrong’s self‑appointed apostolic status and confirmed the allegation that Dorothy herself had never wished to make public.
This is my understanding, but I accept of course if some aspects I have not recounted perfectly.
Having heard this story, we don’t need to be surprised. Armstrong from the very beginning was a selfish one‑man band driven by his ego and ambition, twisting scripture any way he desired to achieve his devious purpose of building a so‑called “one true church,” and later crowning himself a fake apostle. In plain terms , a con man.
The entire COG spectrum is founded on false teachings, as its leader, HWA, was nothing but a snake oil salesman!
You are totally correct there Cheers and best to you
@ 11:08: You got some bogus information, Dude! I'd suggest you first read the Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong to learn that Dorothy was indeed married to Vern C. Mattson. Everybody knows that!
Next, I'd advise you to go to the Painful Truth Website and use the search box to learn that George Meeker was a minister in the WCG. He made the Hall of Shame for some reason over there.
If you still don't believe me, call the COGawa and ask to speak with George's son Joel Meeker, who is a minister there. Ask him if Dorothy is his mommy, and if his Daddy exposed the incest.
This is another example of how the history of the WCG is becoming fractured by people who don't do proper research, and start up rumors that get repeated. If you feel the need to post stuff around here, make sure it is accurate and real. We go after Armstrongism, but in so doing, we do care about the facts!
HWA was a dirty rotten sinner. Totally disgusting. How does that change anything in the Bible?
Yes there are a lot of people that think Herbert hung the moon. I think they actually worship him.
Those in The Church are only interested in what God instructs. The Bible is quite clear on our responsibilities toward God.
God bless you 11:08 for clarifying the matter. Makes much more sense as you elaborated.
For me there’s so many issues now re HWA’s behavior (eg false predictions, incest, autocracy, etc) and his teachings (eg tithing money, Wed crucifixion & Sat resurrection, BI, FOT holidays, etc) I am starting to feel I have less in common each day with the very few people with an ACOG background I had been associating with until now. It’s both a blessing and a curse in the sense that I’m so blessed that God is mercifully opening my eyes to His liberating Truth but at the same time I’m feeling alone and rejected since these people with whom I once shared a belief system want to keep their Armstrongist traditions, even though it’s scripturally unsupported—and ironic since they have pointed the finger at Catholics and Protestants for their scripturally unsupported traditions. I guess like the preacher said it with wisdom comes sorrow.
"However, there seems to be a slight error in the note because Mattson was not Dorothy’s husband. Dorothy was apparently married to a George Meeker"
Bizarre. The testimony can't even get the name of the husband right. Why should we believe any of it?
Personally, I have never believed the incest stories. There are lots of reasons why people feel deep dislike for HWA. I think the stories are a product of that vitriol. Who in this conflict can be trusted? Ask some person who never liked HWA what he/she thinks of HWA? What did you think would happen?
Scout
Nothing can break their love and dedication from Armstrong, It would have to die out. It's the same as Trump saying I can shoot a person and they will still vote for me. Well its the same cult of personality. The actual two witnesses can be on the scene, but the cogs wouldn't recognize them due to armstrongism.
I wonder if the leadership of the UCG has been open about HWA being a pervert and a scam artist. I don't know because I am not a member of the UCG.
But my guess is they have never addressed the HWA issues.
Structures built on a false foundation are doomed to fall, and it was only thru a stalinist system of control did Worldwide survive as long as it did. It was pretty well known that that HWA's sex perversions were true and I guess too many ministers were too concerned with their own paycheck or their own spin off to admit to the truth. HWA damaged a lot of lives and Flurry is continuing this tragic legacy
Dorothy was married to Vern Mattson. She was not married to a Meeker. George Meeker's wife's name was Karen.
America has a historic incest problem in comparison to other regions of the world.
Vern Mattson was indeed Dorothy husband. Go to findagrave.com and look up Vern's page. Dorothy is indeed listed as his wife.
Is this really Scout? I can't see him taking some absurd comments as truth without investigating it.
Find A Grave states that George Meeker was married to Karen Kunkel, not Dorothy Armstrong Mattson.
Karen Kunkel was George Meeker’s second wife and appears on his Find A Grave page as his surviving spouse;
Dorothy M. Mattson was Vern Mattson’s wife and appears on Vern’s Find A Grave page.
They are two completely different women, on two different men’s memorials, and neither of them is Herbert Armstrong’s daughter Dorothy, who married Meeker first and died in 1977.
Meeker’s first wife was Dorothy Armstrong, and Mattson’s wife was Dorothy M. Mattson - two different women who happened to share the same first name.
re 1.22 You got some bogus information, Dude... people who don't do proper research
1. Herbert Armstrong’s Autobiography does not say that Dorothy married Vern C. Mattson; it says that Beverly married Vern. So the “everybody knows Dorothy was married to Vern” line is difficult to follow, because it contradicts Armstrong’s own account. See Volume 1 of The Autobiography of Herbert W. Armstrong, in the section where Herbert describes his daughters’ marriages (the Pasadena years, mid‑1950s), he states: Beverly Armstrong married Vern C. Mattson; I can’t find any passage saying Dorothy married Mattson. If such a passage exists, I haven’t seen it — and it would contradict the sections identifying Beverly as Vern’s wife.
2. George Meeker was indeed a minister in the WCG that part is correct - but it doesn’t change the basic fact that Herbert Armstrong’s daughter Dorothy married Meeker, not Vern Mattson. His ministerial role or Painful Truth’s “Hall of Shame” entry has nothing to do with identifying Dorothy’s husband. You seem to be treating Meeker’s ministerial status as if it somehow proves Dorothy married Vern, but it doesn’t. It actually reinforces the correct history: Dorothy Armstrong was married to minister George Meeker; and Vern Mattson married Beverly Armstrong.
Multiple independent ministerial listings from the 1950s–1970s show: George Meeker — WCG minister, married to Dorothy Armstrong; Vern C. Mattson — WCG minister, married to Beverly Armstrong. These records were compiled long before the AR 14 error - see below
3. Joel Meeker is not Dorothy Armstrong’s son. He is George Meeker’s son from George’s later marriage to Karen Kunkel, not from his first marriage to Dorothy. So asking him whether Dorothy Armstrong was his mother wouldn’t clarify anything - she wasn’t. Joel would certainly know who his mother is - and it wasn’t Dorothy Armstrong.
4. I agree completely that accuracy matters, which is why it’s important to correct the mix‑up here. The minister Dorothy married was George Meeker, not Vern Mattson, and Joel Meeker is Karen Kunkel’s son, not Dorothy’s. Keeping those basic facts straight prevents exactly the kind of confusion you’re concerned about.
Finally: A persistent source of confusion in Armstrong family history comes from a simple error in Ambassador Report 14 (Dec. 1980), which mistakenly referred to Herbert Armstrong’s younger daughter as “Dorothy Mattson.” The 1981 Ambassador Report special article - in which George Meeker himself spoke directly - corrected this mistake, confirming that Meeker was Dorothy’s husband and that Mattson was married to Beverly. That single naming error in AR 14 has been repeated for decades and is the root of this misunderstanding
July 24, 2026 at 6:23:56 AM
I understand your confusion friend, as I have been through it myself many years ago now. With passage of time you will find the way to walk with God lead by the Holy Spirit and free of the confining shackles of Armstrongism. Wishing you well and best to you
The only issue corrected was the husband’s name. The note mixed up Dorothy’s husband, and that matters because it creates confusion about who said what. Herbert Armstrong’s Autobiography shows Beverly married Vern Mattson, and Dorothy married WCG minister George Meeker. The 1981 Ambassador Report also corrected the earlier mistake and confirmed the same thing. That’s all I was pointing out - just keeping the basic facts straight.
Whether someone personally believes the incest allegation is a separate question. People will draw their own conclusions. Correcting the husband’s name isn’t about taking sides or deciding who’s trustworthy it’s simply about making sure the historical details aren’t garbled. It does show that two different family members, not one, confirmed the story, but people will of course make up their own minds about what to do with that.
Dorothy married Vern Mattson.
I shouldn't have wasted my time looking it up as this is common knowledge, except to this guy who seems unwilling to relinquish or verify his false claim.
So in the Autobiography Vol. 2 Chapter 42:
"Meet Future Son-in-Law
Shortly prior to our summer trip to Chicago and Los Angeles in 1941, our younger daughter had become engaged to Vern R. Mattson, a University of Oregon student. He had joined the Marines and at the time we reached Los Angeles was in boot camp in San Diego. Dorothy was then working in the office with the one secretary we had then employed. She insisted on coming to Los Angeles while we were there, to visit Vern."
Scout said: “Personally, I have never believed the incest stories.”
With respect, I come to a different conclusion. Personally, I do believe the incest allegations. One reason is my understanding of the depth of human sinfulness—we're all capable of grievous wrongdoing.
Secondly, if I were falsely accused of something so serious, I would vigorously and publicly deny it. Likewise, if I were the child of someone falsely accused, I would speak out to defend my parent if I knew the allegations were untrue. The prolonged silence from those closest to the accusations is, to me, significant. While silence alone is not proof, I find it difficult to reconcile that silence with the claim that the allegations were completely false.
If Dorothy was George Meeker's first wife, Find A Grave would've listed her as such. FAG always lists the spouses of there's more than one wife or husband.
Yeah, we're being punked, Jimmy. I don't think anybody could be as stupid as 11:08. Everybody knows that Beverly was married to James A. "Jimmy" Gott.
People of lesser brain power do not generally know that they are stupid. They do sometimes wonder about how others "misunderstand" them, or react to them.
Hey! ET! Call Joel! (If you dare)
Maybe we should have a vote. Meeker or Mattson or someone else. The name with the most votes will be certified as the husband. We can do the same thing on the accusations against HWA. Yes, No or I don't know. This whole thing has entered the realm of fable. At least that is a step up from rumor.
Look, HWA did enough bad stuff theologically. No need to invent lurid tales. The same people who indict the news media as "fake news" will swallow this stuff hook, line and sinker.
Scout
The debate over who married who obscures the point. Garner Ted Armstrong told my father that his father (Herbert Armstrong) had an incestuous relationship with his sister.
This is the craziest thing I've ever seen on this site, mainly becsuse the truth is right there in the Autobiography, and for those of us who were actually alive during Don Heriberto's life, occasionally we heard him mention his daughters and their husbands. Might as well claim that Flurry ended up marrying Ramona!!! I mean he scarfed up everything else of HWA's. Somebody been eatin' too much of that there explosive diarrhea lechuga!
@1:50: John Trechak was a friend of mine. He knew the names of HWA's daughters and sons in law!
It is sufficient that the prophecies all failed and the church broke up because of the Armstrongs' astonishing sex sins. Why play musical names with some of the characters? That's just silly.
Kevin, is that you? Are you punking us? It was always your style to place a self-congratulatory anonymous comment below your comments!
No one cares in 2026 !!! Incest is rife in the 'American dream'. The Armstrong family were as screwed up as many American families. Herbert and Loma were distant cousins !!!
You all strain at a incest crime from well over 100 years ago, but none care if truth be told.
Dorothy during her adult life was very happy spending and benefitting from thousands upon thousands of RCG/WCG members tithes. Then later in life she benefitted from her brother (GTA) taking her and her family on holidays in the hired private jet and benefitting from more (CGI)
Member tithes.
I think we can conclude she got over the early years of parent abuse from Hetbert by the constant flow of church members tithes and offerings.
My point is that we cannot form a judgement based on a collection of biased witnesses. GTA would be at the top of the list of biased witnesses. If there were a court case, the defense lawyers would have a field day with GTA. I would trust you father in the accuracy of what he conveyed to you. But I would not trust the source.
Scout
Thank you MJ/LCH for bringing the discussion back to the central issue. It's easy for conversations like this to get sidetracked into debates over secondary details, while the main allegation gets lost in the noise.
What I do know is that a lot of family members accepted a lot of money - including "college" education.... SUPPOSEDLY in the know and then suddenly after 2005 "confirming" the story.
Another reason I do not believe they were "in the know at the time"... At all.
No official divorce records have EVER leaked. Whenever the proceedings are mentioned it is that single local newspaper report quoting hearsay.
Nck
We all know who started that crazy disgusting incest lie about HWA. Garner Ted Armstrong and it was all about revenge because his father fired him and kicked him out of the church.
Chill, all of HWA's grandchildren have confirmed the incest story.
People do care about incest and other egregious crimes in 2026, 2:19. These events are something the victims never completely get over, something that destroys lives and relationships. What's true is that powerful people with agendas that many people follow and support refuse to allow cancellation over something like this. Yes, there has been a "me too" movement. Yes, overnight Cesar Chavez has been permanently tarnished, and things named in his honor have abruptly been renamed. But, we have a president who has been convicted of felonies, and people who love his agenda simply look the other way, as he is swept into office by the religious right of all things. Ambivalence towards moral outrages such as these is in reality a sign of the endtimes, and apparently you have been caught up in it.
This is why there are the qualifications for a bishop which Paul was inspired to give to Timothy., 5:09.
This history is getting older now and some of us have no idea who married who because we were not contemporaries but we hear these reports and wish to know the truth because we have heard his Herbert Armstrong’s teachings.
Phinpoy exactly confirmed my point! They all accepted free "college" education from the so called perpetrator. So they are either totally corrupt degenerated idiots OR not really into the know as young adults just confirming the same hearsay.
Nck
You twist what i wrote no one cares about Herbert Armstrongs incest from over 100 years ago.
The bottom line is that both Herbert and Garner Ted were morally and ethically UNFIT to serve as ministers of Jesus Christ, let alone leaders within the Church. Herbert's second marriage and subsequent divorce and GTA's serial adultery demonstrate this without the charge of incest. The truth is that they both felt entitled to do whatever they wanted to do because they had been "called by God" to lead his "end-time" church. Likewise, since their misdeeds were of a heterosexual nature, they simply had to point to those "depraved" homosexuals as proof of their moral superiority. Let's not forget their lavish lifestyles either. Let's face it they were entitled, selfish, and morally bankrupt, and God didn't use either one of them for anything related to HIS plans!
"The Lone Gunman"
Only two people know the answer to this issue - HWA and his daughter. Both are dead, so we have no living testimony. We have only secondhand accounts. If we cannot figure out who killed JFK and whether not Trump lost the 2020 election, how can we figure out something as private this? It is unknown what the private relationship between C.S. Lewis and Minto Moore really was. Or Karl Barth and Charlotte von Kirschbaum. Different people have different views. People who attract controversy also attract conspiracy theories.
Nobody has ever produced any material evidence on this topic about HWA. A letter from somebody is not material evidence. I don't even know what would constitute material evidence. I think we need to class this as a conspiracy theory and forget about it.
Scout
Well, the problem with that, 11:51, is that apparently people are taking advantage of that history fade and are either knowingly or unknowingly promoting error. The precise conditions which exist now both "in the world" and within the Armstrong bubble are different from those which existed at the turn of the new millennium. Those of us who were around for the Great Disappointment of 1975 have been unwanted accountability partners to the then emerging, and now fully developed splinter movement simply because from our vantage point of having been there back in the day, we know the history and can correct the errors people are employing to support the spread of their agendas.
We're still somewhat plentiful. However, just as HWA and the original Evangelists who graduated from AC during the first ten years of its existence have passed away, we too now have a short window of existence. Some old timers from the early 2,000's quit posting and simply went on with their lives. Others have passed, or have health issues. We won't be around to hold the revisionists accountable for much longer. That seems terribly important right now, but I really don't see the splinters suddenly making a quantum leap forward when we are no longer around. Our group demise will not cure their terminal lameness. In fact, there may be an opposite effect. Us no longer being around may make these public internet discussions a thing of the past. Less people discussing, no more free publicity for the so-called leaders, and so the groups simply die a silent death and become a small footnote to internet articles on Gamaliel.
By the way, there are articles and interviews from former Christian MAGA members, and I believe you would see some very similar comments from them to the comments here. They call MAGA a cult, and use terms like "authoritarian", they were appalled by the white supremacy of so many of the leaders and their fellow members, and us seceding from the global community and becoming isolationists. Some of these people are highly intelligent and are making some really salient comments of which I would not have thought them capable. Check the news. You may be surprised!
I used to say a used condom from the era, or a photograph, would be prima faciae evidence, Scout, but these folks don't believe in dna, and now they know two more exculpatory letters from the alphabet, A and I. So a picture or even Super 8 video would be said to be fake.
The good news is, nobody can prove that it didn't happen, either. But, whether the verdict actually is guilty or innocent, the prophecies all failed, Anglo-Saxon Gentiles are not Israelites, and the old WCG has been spewed into little splinters, with divided, confused tongues.
Nck, the grandchildren were told the incest story by their parents. Ted Armstrong Gott got the story straight from his mother, Beverly. As for the money he paid out to them, if it was to keep their mouths shut, it didn't work out in the long run.
July 24, 2026 at 1:22:01 AM PDT
My apologies Dude — I misread key details and relied on faulty secondary genealogies; the primary sources I was able to locate at some effort on the searchable library (apart from the autobiography)and they show that Dorothy Jane Armstrong married Vern R. Mattson in 1944, remained married into the 1970s, had a daughter (Ginger) and granddaughter (Dianne), was still alive in 1978, Beverly married James A. Gott, and George Meeker married Karen Kunkel, making Joel unrelated to Dorothy. cheers
Vern Robert Mattson and Dorothy Jane Armstong's Marriage certificate is posted on Ancestry.com. It was signed by Herbert and also by the county clerk on July 22, 1944 in Eugene, Oregon.
Another proof that HWA did not do as claimed is the participation of claimants in discussing HWAs theology.
Why bother if he comitted the type of sin they accuse him of.
Even Muhammed would then be more worthy of being Christian.
Nck
Nck,
History is replete with conmen or cult leaders doing horrible things and their acolytes ignoring the sins and believing the claims. I’ve spoken to quite a few in the current cogs (including ministers) that are not dissuaded from following Armstrong even while accepting his guilt.
July 24, 2026 at 1:22:01 AM PDT
I have apologised regarding this matter, as I initially misread key details and relied on faulty secondary genealogies available on the internet when I first commented. After that, after reading concerns expressed I went back through the Autobiography and the other primary sources I was able to locate—at some effort—through the searchable library, and determined that they show the following accurate picture: Dorothy Jane Armstrong married Vern R. Mattson in 1944, remained married into the 1970s, had a daughter (Ginger) and granddaughter (Dianne), and was still alive in 1978. Beverly Armstrong married James A. Gott, and George Meeker married Karen Kunkel, making Joel apparently unrelated to Dorothy. It was an honest mistake, now corrected. It seems that incomplete details about Dorothy’s later life in the Autobiography were incorrectly supplemented using secondary sources ( such as assiumed death dates, grandchildren and the Meeker myth) which led to the earlier misunderstanding. What this means for certain allegations I am unable to comment. Cheers
Richard David "Dick" Armstrong was always thought of as the good son, whereas GTA was the sower of wild oats. In his memoir, David Jon Hill was just beginning to spill the real beans when, after four installments, he suddenly died. We'll never know what he didn't get to share. But he already had shared the fact that he and Dick Armstrong regularly smoked cigarettes as they drove the World Tomorrow tapes over to Hollywood several times per week.
Your standard is far too high. Circumstantial evidence is enough to reach a criminal conviction if the judge or jury believes it is beyond a reasonable doubt. That said, Herbie would probably skate by that standard, unless Dorothy testified. But, with a preponderance of the evidence standard, he easily loses, which is why I strongly believe his guilt.
Anon650,
I very much appreciate your retraction. We have all been there. The reason this time annoyed me so much is that it was muddying the water when the marital facts were irrefutable. It even got Scout. This water must not be muddied as the evidence strongly points to Herbert Armstrong's engaging in years-long deplorable acts with his daughter WHILE Armstrong claimed he was receiving special revelation from God.
Some, such as Scout, are satisfied focusing on logically exposing the doctrinal error, BUT there are those that hang onto the belief of God's direct revelation to Armstrong and they remain unpersuaded by logical argument. But, even they, are often woken from the trance when the deplorable nature of Armstrong's actions are exposed.
Anon219,
Of course people care about Armstrong and incest. Though it wouldn't move the needle for the more rigid among the COGs, it has already been the catalyst to wake people up about the many doctrinal errors and continues to in the COGs as more are made aware of it and actually look into it. The younger generation has really been turned off by it.
“So speaketh Scout” lol
This is a belated comment to all of the above. Some may want to learn of an interview i was listening to - it is a taped interview with Larry Gott, one of Beverly's sons.
https://hwarmstrong.com/interviews.htm
It is about one hour and twenty minutes. Towards the end of that interview, if you find that portion, you will hear Larry saying that the incest allegations were common knowledge in their family.
Larry Gott confirmed that allegations to which you refer Jimmy. See my comment at the end wherein I refer to a taped interview he gave.
Yes. 9,28 I referred to that interview. He definitely is a liar. It was not "common knowledge". How else would a decent man have accepted an entire paid "college" education from HWA IF it was common knowledge. So either Larry is the greatest charlatan idiot of all time......OR he just interjected knowledge that came later to him through the sick GTA gossip and mixeid it up with his memories as "common knowledge".
nck
Maybe so nck all very confusing and perhaps nothing of import anyway given uncertainty. As you say. Best to you
Nck,
I think you are hampered by how you believe YOU would respond in a certain situation. I’ve seen this multiple times on different subjects. Most people don’t think like you. There is not a simple dichotomy on the issue as you provided above.
People get damaged and go on sometimes until they realize how wrong the situation is/was. This is common. Perhaps some recognize the situation earlier but say “I’m at least going to get wgat i can from this family/organization that hurt and now “owes” me”
So, they get their free education.
NOTHING that uncommon about either takes.
AND, There are more possible takes or combinations along the spectrum of how one might respond. You can recognize any number of these if you don’t limit yourself to thinking that only your own untested response makes sense.
NO Jimmy.
With all due respect for your advocacy for said persons.
Not regarding this particular topic. This is a worldwide all cultures and religions encompassing taboo topic.
If they were in the know as young adults they are morally reprehensible evil idiots if they accepted the expensive gifts from their grandfather.
So I am very kind in even suggesting that perhaps they came to hear the gta accusations later in life and therefore concluded "it was common knowledge."
Perhaps too kind since it is very simple. Deborah turned into an idiot too after a failed career. If she had known at the time of accepting a free education then she was one sick puppy.
Nck
nck
I think you're making exactly the point jimmy was trying to make. You're assuming that because *you* believe there is only one morally acceptable response, everyone else would necessarily respond the same way. Human behavior simply isn't that predictable, especially within families where there has been alleged abuse, manipulation, secrecy or dependence.
History is full of examples of people remaining in abusive family systems, accepting financial support from abusive relatives or maintaining relationships for years before fully processing or confronting what had happened. That doesn't automatically make them "morally reprehensible evil idiots." It makes them human. Trauma, family loyalty, fear, denial, financial dependence and the normalization of dysfunctional behaviour can all influence how people respond.
You're also presenting a false dilemma: either Larry is lying or he only came to believe it much later. Those are not the only possibilities. He could have known there were longstanding rumours within the family without fully understanding them, he could have suspected something was wrong but remained silent or he could have accepted the education while struggling with conflicting emotions about his family. Real life is rarely as simple as an either/or scenario.
What concerns me is that you seem to dismiss testimony whenever it points toward HWA's guilt, while readily accepting alternative explanations that preserve his innocence. That creates a double standard. If every witness or family member whose account supports the allegations is automatically labelled a liar, mistaken or influenced by gossip, then no amount of evidence could ever persuade you because you've already decided the conclusion before evaluating the evidence.
Reasonable people can disagree about whether the evidence reaches a legal standard such as "beyond a reasonable doubt." But calling people liars or idiots simply because they draw a different conclusion from the available evidence isn't an argument. It's dismissing evidence because it doesn't fit the conclusion you've already reached.
At the end of the day, we're all free to look at the same body of evidence and reach our own conclusions. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, just as I respectfully disagree with your conclusion.
9.45
The reason I respectfully agree with your argument FULLY. Is because you argue from a family perspective. Whilst I've witnessed them live and act under Armstrong as a Moral and Religious Guide.
They were fully fine with that. So I differ from your "traumatic moving on argument." They acted as having accepted him as religious guide FULLY. So I do not believe that at the time if acceptance of Free Tuition and the perks of living (worshipping) under the Armstrong name they were in the know under "it was common knowledge." And yes SS guards have been sentenced at 81years old after a good life withbcrimes comitted when they were between 18 and 22 years old... So a person at that age is FULLY mature on their actions and decisions. So again they should not have lived a total lie and scam IF they knew... Again I believe they either intentionally or unintentionally lied in the interviews.
Nck
I of course meant "respectfully DISAGREE".
The point is..... and we see this 99% in modern media. Your entire story is made up since the interviewers do not even ask basic simpke questions. Like just one I asked..... AND YOU SEEM TO BE WILLING TO OFFER ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATIONS JUST TO CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT IT IS OK TO SIMPLY ACCUSE A PERSON WITHOUT BEING ASKED PROPER QUESTIONS.
YOU sir stand accused of a heinous sin. (Besides twisting my words.)
To have accepted huge gifts is to be either an accomplice or to have much later "accepted" the gta gossip as "common knowledge in the family" it's that simple.
Nck
What a Freudian slip - your unconscious seems to disagree with your disagreement nck. lol
I'm not exactly sure what Freud has to do with typing at night on the toilet without contacts in. (which is the time allocated for amswering here) :-) :-) :-)
I have stated this factoid before.
Nck
Post a Comment