Dennis Muses on Intelligent Theology

dop·pel·gäng·er

 noun \ˈdä-pəl-ˌgaŋ-ər, -ˌgeŋ-, ˌdä-pəl-ˈ\

                          : someone who looks like someone else

                           :  a ghostly counterpart of a living person

                                :  a double

 or alter ego

           

Recently I met with a highly educated Episcopal Priest just to talk.  I had the opportunity and was feeling the need to see and hear what a man in his position would have to say about Biblical topics that I have come to understand in a far different way than my meager WCG training in all things Bible.  WCG trained itself to be good Bible readers, as you have heard me say over the years.  COG ministers are mere Bible readers with no desire to dig deeper into the texts, background, history or intent of what they quote to frame their beliefs. If they had the desire they would have to keep it to themselves.  Only in a secure religious setting can one speak freely of  Biblical realities. Beliefs are framed by proof texting and COGs compete with each other by proof texting better than the competition.  It's a ridiculous approach and why under trained men like Dave Pack and Ron Weinland make fools of themselves with hubris and ego centric ministry.  

To the point.

We talked about the Gospels and the Priest comment to me was that the Gospels are full of contradictions. Neither birth stories no resurrection accounts are eyewitness accounts and are muddled, but they still have good meaning for us.  He noted that if he did not have the desire for Jesus in the picture, he'd be a great Buddhist.  Sigh...

We talked about Genesis and evolution and the Priest agreed that the Adam and Eve story is mythological and not really the origin of human beings.  It was a comment that came with the idea that anyone should be able to understand that.  I got the feeling he'd not understand anyone taking it as literally true. The creation story is not really about science of course but it has some good lessons for us.  We didn't talk about what those might be.  It didn't matter if Genesis wasn't literally true, which it isn't and wasn't in his view as well and held my tongue when thinking of just how much the story being literally true did mean in the New Testament and later in the Church with the concept of Original Sin.  One can't be held as guilty because of the Fall of humans in the Garden if there was no garden and no man or woman actually "fell."  Sigh...

The Priest fully understood the rancour between Peter, James, John and Paul in the New Testament and that none of them agreed with each other much .  But again, there was good in it all.  Sigh...

When it came to Revelation, he noted  the Book of Revelation was never written for us.  It was written for them and the "soon" and "things that must shortly come to pass" was for THEM, not US.  Revelation is a strange book and not for us to get too concerned about today.  We both noted how many "preachers" make fools of themselves with false predictions.  Little did he know how hot a topic that was for me but he understood the actual place Revelation should have in the modern Church.  None.   Sigh...

He recommended a book or two that might help and as I looked through the one he took from his shelf , which he thought was just awesome and true, it was obvious the author was well versed in Buddhism and Buddhist thought as relating to the Gospels.  Sigh....

It was obvious he knew what most who take the time and have the theological inclination can come to see and understand about the Bible.  He made it very clear he understood it was a man originated book as there can be no other kind, and that it was certainly not written by any God literally.  Yet there were many good lessons in it if you skip the crazy parts which he noted as easily found.   Sigh...

All I can say  is that the experience was interesting with a touch of regret.  Of course the Episcopal Church is sacrament oriented. It has no interest in the strange and weird ideas of those like a Dave Pack.  It is not interested in Prophecy Coming Alive! It doesn't beg for money and expects to be around a very long time. I found a grave in the Church Yard going back to 1700's and it was filled with both Revolutionary and Civil War..oops, War of Northern Aggression soldiers.  It's just there for people of faith and provides a setting that serves that need.  I don't find the congregants particularly Bible literate.  They leave that to the Church. The members have lives apart from Church and yet the Church provides much in ways of social opportunities and excellent works in places like Haiti and the community, God forbid.  Having attended, it is orderly with not much room for straying from the Liturgy or Homily.  The Homily is short and to the point.  No Dave Pack or Ron Weinland, Bob Thiel or James Malm would get an inch in the Episcopal setting.  And this crowd would not be inclined to the personal views of a Dave Pack on everything from himself to what they should or should not eat.  With forty or fifty lawyers in the audience Dave would have to be a different kind of human being. 

I did have my doubts that all congregants would see or think of the Bible in the same way as the Priests do and he admitted to that being the case as well.  I once heard that the average well trained theologian is 50 years ahead of the congregation in what they understand about all things Bible and this is true. Very true. I'd say maybe 2000

I had met my Doppelganger...my ghost.  Maybe I was the ghost and he was the real thing.  I left with several emotions tugging at me.  I was a bit frustrated that we had such similar views but such different lives, though I always imagined myself in ministry from way back.  I went to Ambassador College really believing it was a Seminary if you can imagine that.  I was a kid and no one told me otherwise.  When I was at AC I would study at times at Fuller Theological Seminary and had an inkling that that might be a better place.  But with the world ending and Jesus coming soon, I stayed put.  Besides they ate pork and didn't keep the sabbath. I was a kid. It was not difficult to compare his relatively easy life of being kind and loving, generous and helpful to a very unique group of people with my own at this time.  I left having a chat with myself about it all just being a story.  He had his and I had mine.  But I had met myself in that office and it was an interesting experience and I left realizing what is uncommon knowing for the average congregant is common understanding when a man or woman is well trained in Biblical studies and can admit to the reality of it all. 

Just thought I'd share it...

David C Pack Continues His Downward Spiral

With David C. Pack's recent abysmal prophetic failure on the "great"reunification of all the Churches of God under HIS leadership, he has been fairly quiet.  Expect of course in his sermons each week. 
Unless you have a family member or friend part of his cult you will not hear much about these sermons.  Members cannot record sermons and if a recording is played in church it must be destroyed or returned to Wadsworth immediately afterwards.  Because Pack says such weird and off the wall stuff, he has to cover his ass and not let his off-the-cuff remarks get disseminated to the heathen apostates or the world.  After getting burned and ridiculed for his "Clarion Call" sermon, Pack has been in cover up mode ever since.

There was a letter recently on Silenced from a person who has a friend in Dave's cult.  Dave is apparently sinking further down the rabbit hole with the following:

Kevyn Rand says:

October 25, 2013 at 13:43

I asked my dear friend (the one drowning in the Pack church) how Pack is dealing with this issue of being a false prophet. Apparently Pack is now telling his sheeple that he misinterpreted the dates and that it will occur, but not right now. Nothing more, hang on and keep sending in your money, just more vagueries and BS as they move on to other topics. Recent topics in their “sermons” (Pre-recorded garbage broadcast on the web so no one can think for themselves) has been to try and dictate how and what people in the church eat and how they view food. More garbage about pork, most of which is an outright lie. Also in these sermon sillies are edicts about food and how it is bad if you are eating any food that you have not grown yourself.

Interesting timing that this is all being spewed forth just before Thanksgiving to further encourage the sheeple not to celebrate thanksgiving, or any other personal holiday, with their families. They are told that they should only associate with those in the church. Why do these people not recognize that the sole purpose in most of this spew is to alienate them from their families, friends and all others who are not “with the church”? Classic mind control techniques. Trust no one. Trust nothing. Only the special people can be trusted. Jeez. Astonishing that people can allow themselves to be controlled in this way.

I wish there were some way to talk sense into these people, but they are so completely brainwashed that they can not tolerate any common sense or find any truth for     themselves. 

Kevin then followed up with this comment about how Dave is telling church members to stay away from doctors.

I forgot to include one other tidbit; the recent sermons are also (yet again) reminding the chosen fools that they are not to use modern medicine under any circumstances unless it is a dire emergency. “Pray on it, and God will take care of you” is their suggestion. I suppose if the flock really adheres to this mandate there will be far fewer of them in the next few years since many are elderly and infirm.

Great will be the day when the vermin that run these splinter cults are gone.   Sadly, once these men are gone there will be another whack-job that will take their place and the sheeple will surrender themselves once again.
 

Dennis dreams about:

Jude 1:8

English Standard Version (ESV)

⁸ Yet in like manner these people also, relying on their dreams...

(Funda-mental-ism is a dream job)

Very shortly after the Tkaches had whittled the Greenville congregation down from about 450 to less than a hundred and I was sent on my way  (Thank you Jebus) , I had a dream.  A white ball of light burst into  three balls of light, which later  I realized looked very similar to the Microsoft logo which spun my computer to start, appeared in the sky.  The now smaller white one came down to me , elongated in the horizontal and morphed into an Angel.  I asked it, "How do you fly?"   The Angel said nothing but put a vest it was wearing on me and I took off like a bird soaring over the landscape.  Ahead was a huge log structure like the lodge at Yellowstone but bigger.  I soared into the rafters and a huge crowd below, having lunch after the morning Feast Service applauded the landing.  I slowly descended to the floor to find a seat for lunch and EVERY TIME I approached an empty seat, the person put their hand on it and said "Sorry, this seat is taken.'   Exasperated, I flew away.  The end.

For years after that I dreamed nightly of being a co-pilot in a jet where the pilot never spoke or looked at me. EVERY TIME we tried to take off, a canopy of trees would grow over the runway and we never got off  the ground. We crashed.  I'd scream at the pilot to hurry and take off. He never did.  I was never hurt and just watched the plane burn.  Over and over..co-pilot/runway/trees/crash...    

Then I had a talk with myself.  "The next time you dream this...don't scream at the pilot...fly the plane yourself.   It took some time but finally that dream came where here comes the fast growing canopy of trees and I burst through them before they engulfed the runway.  

My mind was processing my change of career and my life long bad habit of letting others fly my own life and crash it at will. That is all the dreams were about.  I had Incorporated my love of airplanes, with Microsoft logos, log buildings that I love and would love to live in, crashing airplanes and the need to pilot and fly on my own into my dreams.  I understood my head was talking to my heart and I had to change some things now that I was no longer a Mr. Diehl.  I needed to stop letting others control me and determine my happiness because if I let them pilot my life, I will crash every time. It was a painful lesson and there were big prices to pay, but I got the point my mind was making to me which I no doubt had, all my life, understood to be something I was weak in and needed to change. 

The dreams were not from any God, "trying to tell me something."  It was Dennis talking to Mr. Diehl about his mid-life crisis, need to awaken or grow up, take your choose....

It is absurd that a man who claims to be a "Doctor" and now had designated himself a "Prophet" to imply it is because he dreamed it and dreams come from God.  Dreams do not come from God.  What kind of a God would wish to transmit absolutely vital information to EVERYONE by giving a dream to ONE person that ain't all that credible or skilled in communication?  Dreams come from central processing of emotions, needs, wants and desires.  Humans have been dreaming since they became conscious of being conscious beings.  It is how the mind works.   I don't care if Joseph of the Old Testament was a dreamer and God got to him during his dreams. I don't care if Nebuchadnezzar had dreams that Daniel needed to interpret for him and they always favored the interpreter or the one who dreamed an knew exactly what it all meant.  The real problem is that one can say they had a dream about some profound truth  and that now they are special because God says so, in the dream, and it can never be verified.  Those who need titles often dream God gave them that title and it's just up to the faithful to take that on faith.  One just has to believe the dreamer is not also a liar.  

Dreams, made up by writers, can be useful in persuasion and getting readers to accept foregone conclusions the dreamer has come to.  It was convenient to have Pilate's wife dream that Jesus was a good and innocent guy because the need was to portray Jesus as a good and innocent guy in the story. Just who heard this private conversation between Pilate and his wife is never explained.  How they got the info on this dream is not known because it is just made up for the sake of the story.  It is the same with Jesus agony in garden.  It was needful for the story teller to show Jesus in agnony, torn, afraid and just like us but with resolve to die if that's what God wanted. It's how you make a man "fully God and fully human."   If all the disciples were sleeping, Jesus is alone and "afar off", then just who wrote down exactly what Jesus said in his head or out loud in the Garden?  Immediately after this, in the story, Jesus is arrested.  Did he yell, when being led away..."Write this down!!!!" ?  Of course not.  It is part of the passion story and the drama of the writer. 

Most if not all of the long winded speeches in the Gospels and Acts are not what someone actually said.  No one could get that all exactly right on the spot.  It is what the author imagined the character would say if they were to say it or were in a situation where talking about that situation would be necessary for the flow of the story.  It was a Greek style of writing.  No one wrote down word for word what Stephen said before being stoned or what Jesus said only in John 13-17 which I read every passover and almost fell asleep doing it.  It's a writing style used to tell a story.

Anyway...back to the Dreamer Bob Thiel.  Bob says:

"Do dreams and prophets have any place in the Christian Church today?  Are any related to the Continuing Church of God (which did not officially form as a declared entity until December 28, 2012)? - "

Answer:  NO

Bob Continues

"The Bible shows that God often chooses to work with prophets through a dream:

6 “Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)

Notice that the above says that God will speak to His prophet in a dream. Notice also:

28 The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream (Jeremiah 23:28)"

 Answer:  The reason the Bible says this is that Bronze Age humans knew nothing about the origins of dreams and assumed a coherent dream must be from the gods.  It was not any god but Priests in the captivity that wrote Numbers and I well imagine it was stressful being in exile in Babylon for them.  

Please notice that in your Bible God starts out speaking like buddies to Adam and Eve, face to face. Then theological evolution takes place and God speaks in clouds and pillars of fire.  God chooses the occasional bush to speak through as well. Convenient for sure as daytime has clouds and night time needs light to see what the God is doing and the Sinai is full of scrub bushes.  Later God has to speak only through selected prophets who alone know what is going on and Kings and people just get stuck having to believe them or not.  Adam and Eve had no problem believing it was God speaking to them in the story.  The Psalms show the disconnect with the oft repeated lament of "why art thou so far from us?" As time went on, it became more difficult to know if it was really God speaking and then we have to deal with vain dreamers and lying prophets as seen by others who don't believe them.  I am sure the opposing parties had to find lying prophets in the crowd to make the difference between themselves and them.  Finally, God just basically disappears and we are lead to rely only on "Thus said the Lord," or the stories written by men who speak for God.  Of course we have oracles at Delphi, casting of bones, Urim and Thummin, divination and the study of goat guts thriving to figure out what God wants or is doing. I am sure any prohibition against such was designed to discourage use of the Bronze Age Internet to find out for oneself what may or may not be going on.  Priests and competing prophets are like that! Hebrews tells us that finally all that is done away and now we learn stuff through God's Son.  The problem is that God's Son never writes anything himself, only hangs around one to three years depending on which Gospel you read, disappears and never is heard from again until oral traditions and stories are written down and we get all we ever need to know now in what we call The Word of God-The Bible. 

Let me Dare to Be a Daniel with Bob dream of his rising star status in COGdom.  At least Dave Pack and Ron Weinland didn't inflict their dreams on the members to convince.  They just took the titles and beat the brethren down with hour after hour and week after week sermons "proving" that they had every right to declare themselves apostles or witnesses.  I guess I'd prefer a dream just to get it over with faster. 

"I was 50 at the time (which essentially makes me an ‘old man’  per Numbers 8:25; cf. John 8:57) See, I am like a Bible guy.  Bob needs to wonder why the Pharisees would say Jesus was not yet 50 when he was barely late 20's or early 30's  Nobody says that to guys that age.... In my dream, there seemed to be two parallel lines. Living Church of God (LCG) evangelist Roderick Meredith was on the top line and I was on the line much below. See, I was a good part of the church but knew I was special in my unconscious mind and wanted more recognition but RCM was in charge.  I am in line for promotion but can't get it, sooooooo.......In the dream, I kept calling up to Dr. Meredith, but he never would respond.  This lack of response made no sense to me during the dream. Then after what seemed to be a long time, the lines-crossed with his line dropping and my line going up. See, no one would listen to me (trust me-as a pastor there were many people it was hard to take and listen to when they got some lame idea about themselves and the Bible)  The lack of response making no sense means Bob has always thought more highly of himself, like Dave Pack and Ron Weinland, than he ought to think. But finally, I realized I must increase while he must ,mmldecrease.  Bob is John the Baptist in reverse.
One reason that I did not understand it at the time was that I was on relatively close speaking terms with Dr. Meredith then, so that aspect made of the dream made no sense  See, it made no sense because I was getting along with him. Being on "speaking terms" means Bob viewed himself as special and an equal.  He was no friend to RCM but merely, on speaking terms.    "Made no sense" = Bob was not willing to admit outwardly to his inward feelings quite yet.  It was going to take an imagined sign from God to do that. . Also, since I had no intentions of leaving Living Church of God then (and certainly no plans to start a separate church), it was not clear what the dream was saying. Another reason I was unsure about the dream then was that I had not had any anointing for the Holy Spirit beyond baptism when I had it. "  See, I was not used to thinking about striking out on my own and I did have thoughts about starting my own church along the way. In hind site, now that i have a special anointing that I found because I was looking for one I can say humble stuff like this.  He may have had no plans to start a church, but he had subconscious alternatives brewing. 

"But these matters changed eventually. See, I finally got fed up with no one listening to me or taking my counsel and advice when I went to Charlotte to make myself available to LCG. For one, I was unexpectedly anointed for a ‘double-portion’ of God’s Spirit (cf. 2 Kings 2:9) on December 15, 2011 by an LCG minister named Gaylyn Bonjour. "  For one thing, I found a glitch in the system I could hang on to for my proof of my awesome self.  God tricked Gaylyn "Good Day" and it was a very good day for Bob, in his mind.  Shades of Gerald "Strong Arm" Waterhouse!

I won't belabor the point which I believe we get.  Human being dream for lots of reasons.  Dreams can be fun or terrifying.  They can make us think about meaning and indeed, when the head is speaking to the heart or the heart to the head internally and processing life for us and our emotions, intents and secret wishes, it can all seem very meaningful.  However, the meaning is for the person who dreams and not necessarily or ever something OTHERS have to buy into.   Like eclipse conscious Jesuits who tricked Native Americans into believing them by saying if they didn't the moon would swallow the sun tomorrow, dreamers can con both themselves and others into feeling special and on missions from God.  They are not special and the missions are suppressed needs in their minds and lives. There is no God "trying to communicate" with them. 

Let's be reminded of what we, not living in the Bronze Age, have learned about dreams.

Psychoanalytic Theory of Dreams: (About.com  Psychology/dreams)

Consistent with the psychoanalytic perspective, Sigmund Freud’s theory of dreams suggested that dreams were a representation of unconscious desires, thoughts and motivations.According to Freud’s psychoanalytic view of personality, people are driven by aggressive and sexual instincts that are repressed from conscious awareness. While these thoughts are not consciously expressed, Freud suggested that they find their way into our awareness via dreams.

In his famous book The Interpretation of Dreams, Freud wrote that dreams are "...disguised fulfillment of repressed wishes."¹ He also described two different components of dreams: manifest content and latent content. Manifest content is made up of the actual images, thoughts and content contained within the dream, while the latent content represents the hidden psychological meaning of the dream.

Other Theories of Dreams: 

Many other theories have been suggested to account for the occurrence and meaning of dreams. The following are just of few of the proposed ideas:

• One theory suggests that dreams are the result of our brains trying to interpret external stimuli during sleep. For example, the sound of the radio may be incorporated into the content of a dream ⁵.


• Another theory uses a computer metaphor to account for dreams. According to this theory, dreams serve to 'clean up' clutter from the mind, much like clean-up operations in a computer, refreshing the mind to prepare for the next day ⁶.


• Yet another model proposes that dreams function as a form of psychotherapy. In this theory, the dreamer is able to make connections between different thoughts and emotions in a safe environment ⁷.


• A contemporary model of dreaming combines some elements of various theories. The activation of the brain creates loose connections between thoughts and ideas, which are then guided by the emotions of the dreamer ⁸.

Dreams are internalized needs, emotions and frustrations that need to find a place in the life of the dreamer.  "I had a dream" can be very manipulative and have been used by the clever through out history to sway the minds of others to the views of the "dreamer."  Writers, such as the writer of Daniel, in the 160's and not the 585's BCE and those given to visions in their heads which are just dreams in Revelation are expression the angst of the times.  In both cases, the dreams did not come to pass as advertised and Rome crushed the dreamers.  Of course, then the dreamer kicks into "it not time yet, close the book...until."  They say things like "if not this Pentecost, then next" and "I will reveal certain expansive elements" of the dream, vision or prophecy soon.

I believe with all my heart that Bob Thiel is sincere.  He is not being manipulative in this matter.  He is being silly, self centered and is ignorant of how his own mind and human nature works because it is all mixed up with Bronze Age Bible ignorance in the classic God-Haunted kind of way common to many fundamentalist and Bible literalists who have no clue as to the origins, politic and original intent of the very scriptures they cherish so much. 

Dream on Dude...Get yourself back in pespective

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