Saturday, January 23, 2016

Ron Dart Has Died (updated)


I believe in the resurrection from the dead, by which man's mortal and decayed body will be changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet into a new body that can never die.
I believe that the Greater Church of God is composed of all the saints, those in whom the Holy Spirit dwells, who are called according to God's purpose.   

Of the many evangilists to pass through the doors of the Worldwide Church of God, Dart was one of the more friendly ones. While others in Pasadena would walk right by you, Dart would stop and say hello.


From his Facebook page:



From Allie Dart:

Ronald L. Dart died peacefully in his sleep early this Sabbath morning, January 23rd, from a prolonged battle with cutaneous T-cell lymphoma. His remarkable gift of clarity and love and understanding of the Bible were devoted to teaching others.

Christian Educational Ministries, founded by Ron Dart in 1995, will continue to promote his timeless insights into God’s Word through the Born to Win program, his books, essays and audio messages. He was a gifted speaker and teacher who leaves a legacy of knowledge and understanding of the precious Word of God.





54 comments:

Miller Jones said...

I almost always enjoyed his sermons, articles and books. He struck me as being a person of deep thought and spiritual understanding. The CGI lost one of its most believable voices when he left.

FedUp said...

I'm very saddened to hear of his death. I just recently began to read and to listen to his material. He seemed like a humble man. I would have liked to have met him.

Where is God's True Church? who's going to do the final work?? I'm just not sure, but I'm proving all things as fast as I can and trying to fill my lamp with as much oil as I can.

I'm in a very discouraged place right now. I've been pretty burned lately with discrimination towards me and my family that has been building for years by one of the churches of God.

I do believe that God's People are scattered, that God's temple dwells in our hearts, but what kind of work can we do if we're all scattered?? Is it just as good as a big organization of people? When Christ was on the earth, He didn't need a lot of people to preach His Gospel.

Anyhow, I wonder what will change? Who will stand in the gap between the bullies and the sheep??

Byker Bob said...

If memory serves me correctly, Ron Dart was one of the very few ACOG ministers who had attended a legitimate theology school prior to his Ambassador experience.

In later years, his ministry was devoted to unchurched, or nonaligned devotees to HWA's so-called 18 Restored Truths. As such, his absence will have a profound effect on the continuing decline of the movement. Nobody knows how many independents are floating around out there. Their numbers could be as great as some of the larger splinters. And, now they have lost the one who was home-schooling them.

Surely, we can give him credit for not being one of the rabid authoritarians, and for not taking on fake titles.

BB

Floyd 1944 said...

I agree with the above comments. Ron Dart did seem to be a humble man. I am saddened by his death yes he was educated beyond Ambassador. I know he went to Texas A &M
To Fedup. Study and learn from the life of Jesus Follow the examples He left us. Being a merciful, loving, forgiving person. That is doing the work. Let others see Jesus living in you. That is the big picture

Anonymous said...

T0 FedUp: good post. If you believe, stay the course. I know many who have been through the same. It has amazed me through the years that the pretenders always get theirs from other pretenders. pray always, God will see you through the tough times.

Anonymous said...

To Fed Up,

Things are getting messier and messier in so many of the different groups. Maybe it will be left to the two witnesses at the end to really effectively do the preaching, but, we have to hold on to the truth that was once delivered and continue to prove all things from Gods word and not lose hope.

Byker Bob said...

We didn't study the parts of the
Septuagint (the Bible that Jesus and the disciples used) which is now called either the deuterocanonicals, or the apocrypha. However, I wondered as soon as I found out about the changes in 1995, if people we had known as brothers and sisters would begin treating one another as did the Israelites in the books of the Maccabees, in the onslaught of Helenism during the intertestamental period.

What triggered that thought was that on one of the early WCG related forums I found back shortly after Y2K, one person told another that they were glad that person's spouse had died. Regardless of differences in belief, what a horrible thing to say to another human being. Better to say nothing, or to ignore the other person if you can't hold yourself back from hurtful things. Wait for Jesus to put us all on proper course. Wolf in sheep's clothing type ministers should be exposed for what they are, but some of us have even prayed for their wives when we knew they had terminal illnesses.

What a mess was left behind by HWA!

BB

Ralph said...

on January 23, 2016 at 2:23 PM
FedUp said...

"....who's going to do the final work??

I suppose it depends on what you mean "final work". If you mean that which is found here: "Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."
then perhaps that has been accomplished already and we are just waiting for the end to come. Then again, perhaps the "final work" is that which will be accomplished by the "two witnesses" as described here:- Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."
Bearing in mind this:- "Rev 11:12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them."
And this will be the "end" of life as we know it and the beginning of the first resurrection?

cheers
ralph.f

FedUp said...

You guys! I love you! haha My eyes are welling up with tears from your kindness and compassion and encouragement. :)

Hey guys, do you think the "Book of Rememberance" is being opened right now to make note of us talking and encouraging one another? Maybe so. :)

Who knows? (God, always) but maybe we're just as much a part of God's church as anyone in the cog's? As long as we're trying, and not giving up and overcoming, Jesus Christ Yeshua sees that.

"It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit."--Harry S Truman

Instead of waiting for the leaders to finally get on board, why wait for someone to do something that I can do myself? It's like the parable of the talents: am I just going to bury it and let it just sit there? am I just going to pass the buck, pay a little money, and hope the problems in this world get better or the Gospel gets preached? No. God called every one of us to be lights, not just the ministers. It reminds me of that song "People Get Ready" by Eva Cassidy. Think I'll go listen to that now...

"People get ready
There' a train a-coming
You don't need no baggage
You just get on board

All you need is faith
To hear the diesels humming
Don't need no ticket
You just thank the Lord

People get ready
For the train to Jordan
Picking up passengers
From coast to coast

Faith is the key
Open the doors and board them
There's room for all
Among the loved the most

There ain't no room
For the hopeless sinner
Who would hurt all mankind just
To save his own

Have pity on those
Whose chances are thinner
Cause there's no hiding place
From the Kingdom's Throne

So people get ready
For the train a-coming
You don't need no baggage
You just get on board!

All you need is faith
To hear the diesels humming
You don't need no ticket
You just than, you just thank the Lord

Yeah Ooh
Yeah Ooh

I'm getting ready
I'm getting ready
This time I'm ready
This time I'm ready" !!!!


It's just SO hard to sit in services, never knowing if you're going to hear something hurtful about race, or how someone's salvation is more important than someone else's. It's SO draining and humiliating to look around and wonder if everyone is thinking about you or feeling sorry for you. I want people focusing on Christ--not me! Where are the Words of Christ in these "sermons"??

I think the reason why we've stayed so long was to stand in the gap and be a light to the "little people" in our congregation...to take it patiently...to heap coals of fire upon the haters...waiting upon the LORD. Honestly, maybe God allows some of this to happen to test us but also the tares among us, and the gut reaction would to be to tear the tares out--but that might uproot some of the new sprouts, whose roots aren't deep enough yet. Persecution doesn't just come from the outside--it comes from within as well.

Also, I think the reason this personal trial has happened to us is to let us experience real pain, real discrimination so that we may be a witness and a teacher to the people in the Millenium and beyond. I just finished watching "12 Years A Slave," which was a true story about slavery in the South. It made me so angry towards the hatred and ignorance in the history of this country. I look forward to God's Perfect Justice and Mercy.

May God bless each one of you today for caring to respond.

Anonymous said...

Ron Dart was an intelligent, kind and genuine human being. He had more genuine class and sincerity than the vast majority of those who pretend to be spiritual leaders.

Anonymous said...

yes Ron Dart was a good preacher and teacher. I used to wonder why he followed GTA for a while......he must have thought GTA was better than HWA. I do believe Dart and Mrs. Dart were both very sincere and trying to do their best. .

Anonymous said...

Ronald L. Dart was my favorite minister before CGI, during my time with CGI, and after CGI. Even after I decided to be agnostic, I would still listen to him from time to time through BornToWin and the CEMnetwork. He was down-to-earth, authentic and a great teacher. I will always miss him.

drive-by-philosopher

Sweetblood777 said...

I have never heard a sermon from Ron Dart that I didn't like. He always came across as an sincere and humble person. He will be missed.

Anonymous said...

Ron attended a theology school before WWCG? Didn't Richard Plache do the same? HWA was quite a salesman to nail those who already had a background in Thrology.

As for "where is God's Church"? It is not an organization, but the body of Christ, made up of ALL believers, everywhere.

Another recent death is that of Greg Johnson, heart attack, from the class of 73, Pasadena and one of my classmates. I believe he married Susan Leimbach, (see page 70 of Envoy).

Anonymous said...

Didn't Ron Dart claim that he was leaving GTA because of heart problems? Wasn't this a smokescreen? This was when GTA was involved in another public scandal. Why would such a nice man team up with such an immoral phony as GTA?

Anonymous said...

My mistake, Greg Johnson didn't marry Susan Leimbach, I think Robbin Webber of UCG did. Greg was dating someone else, but I can't find her photo I the Envoy. Sorry for the confusion.

Anonymous said...

FedUp, your quote: "It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit."--Harry S Truman' is unbiblical. The parable of the talents tells us the person who does the work, is the one who gets paid. Or, the 'laborer is worthy of his wages, which includes getting the credit. Finally my bible says 'give honor to whom honor is due.' We should care who gets the credit. Not giving earned credit is theft. Truman, who like Obama today, was also passing the wealth around, doesn't agree. Why quote a socialist? Are there not enough verses in the bible to cover every significant point. Keep studying the bible FedUP, you definitely need to. This is another example of what happens when a commie Armstrong hides trading from the church. They do not comprehend how mi-programmed their minds are. When I come here and mention trade, people think me a weirdo, like the former Michael Jackson. Pssst, it's not me that's the weirdo. Trade is in the bible, it's in the bible. Check, check check.

Anonymous said...

I am reluctant to pray for specific people in the church, since the big people have hijacked the selection process. Non boot lickers, and people who have disagreed with a minister, will not have their prayer requests made public. This is unjust and extortion.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Based on my recollections, I can echo the sentiments of others regarding the persona of Ron Dart. I have notes in my WCG of Ron Dart sermons at the Feast of Tabernacles during my attendance.

I can confirm what an earlier poster said regarding Mr. Dart's exit from Church of God, International. I have read from source documents that Mr. Dart exited CGI at the same time the Garner Ted Armstrong massage tape sex scandal happened. I guess this was Mr. Dart's way of distancing himself from GTA.

I can say from first hand knowledge that Ron Dart did create some "undercurrent" Church controversy while an Evangelist with Worldwide Church of God. I attended WCG between 1968 and 1976. Sometime during that period, the bald Mr. Dart began wearing a toupee. Some Church members chatter equated Dart's toupee with "vanity" viewed a double standard at the time given the Church's "on again, off again" ban of cosmetics use for women.

As I recall, Dart got the toupee around the same time the idiot Rod Meredith had his eye surgery. Another example of the WCG executives living by different rules. Actions speak louder than words!

Richard

Anonymous said...

FedUp, this is a reminder that Christians will be judged by the words (book of life) of the bible:

Rev_20:12 ...and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

We will not be judged by the words of Harry S Truman. It is not OK to rob people of their deserved credit, cause Truman says so. A christian is one who follows Christ, not Harry S Truman, Robert E. Lee, or Ulysess S. Grant. I suggest you re double and re triple your bible study effort. Perhaps you should ask your church to return your tithe money, since they failed to teach you Gods way. Tell them you have been swindled, and want a refund.

Connie Schmidt said...

Ron Dart was a profound man on many levels. Truly a model for ministers of any faith, and especially for those in the Sabbatarian movement.

Miller Jones said...

Anonymous 1/24 @ 5:12 & 8:15, Before you offer any more advice to FedUp, you may want to do a little more studying in the Good Book. Who gets the credit? According to Scripture, Almighty God! For our repentance and righteousness - Jesus Christ always gave his Father the credit for the good works and message which he delivered on God's behalf. Moses told the Israelites to be careful not to imagine that their own hands and hard work had produced their substance - that God should get the ultimate credit. Think about what happened to Moses and Aaron when they tried to take credit for the water flowing from the rock (they didn't make it into the Promised Land).

Anonymous said...

11:11 AM Most of your examples have to do with Gods miracles such as healing and making water flow from a rock. In these cases, the credit rightly belongs to God. However, we build or fail to build our own character. We chose to repent or not to repent. We chose to work hard, or be lazy. We deserve the credit for our own accomplishments. Otherwise, explain the different results in the parable of the talents. In fact. Christ gave credit to the wise steward.
Matthew 25:23 His lord said unto him, WELL DONE, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

As I said, and you ignored, we deserve credit for our works:
Matthew 10:10 .. For the workman is worthy of his wages.

That God should get the credit for everything and everyone get none, is the tyrannical government owns everything belief (hence can pass the wealth around) projected into the bible. This is simply, the big people own every thing, and the little people own nothing, with dishonest biblical window dressing. Nice try Mr closet Banana republic dictator.

FedUp said...

Hello everyone,

It's nice to read the positive comments about Mr. Dart as we hear about his death.

And for the others who misunderstood what I had wrote, it was not my intention to cause an argument. I was only stating that quote as something positive: we're supposed to work as a team, as the body of Christ. And as we'd have it, I also acknowledged the very important parable of the talents. God wants us to work together, to have unity, but at the same time, when Christ Returns to judge us, we'll be held accountable individually. That quote to me meant that we need to put our pride aside and not nit-pick and worry/focus on who looks like they're getting the most credit. God Sees everything, and I praise Him for that! He is just and merciful and wise and will award fairly. I think God will also award according to people's meekness and humility and the ability to be a peacemaker since we will all still have to work together to rebuild and reteach in the Millenium.

Have a great day, everyone. God knows what I mean to say, and that's all that matters.

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones, If i exercise, nature gives me the benefits, not God. If I read a good book, I get the benefits , not God, If I practice a skill, I keep the acquired skill, not God. If nature pays me the fruits of my labor, why credit God? Not forgetting, my employer pays me at the end of the week, not God. You are into sillyness. And why, why do some qualify for the kingdom, whilst others for the lake of fire, and gnashing of teeth thingy, if it is all God???

Byker Bob said...

If anyone could approximate how many people are unchurched, independent Armstrong Church of God (ACOG) people, practicing the Armstrong belief system privately in their homes, it would be Mrs. Dart. It is almost guaranteed that there will be a writeup on Ron's passing in the upcoming issue of The Journal. In order to accurately reflect the impact Ron had, I would hope that Dixon would ask that question if he does indeed interview Mrs. Allie Dart.

Also, it is almost written into the dna of Armstrongist ministers to mark, tar and feather, and destroy those who have made some mistakes and were to be excluded from fellowship. When Ron Dart separated himself from GTA, he did not do this. That was not a cover up, it was Ron acting on the greater principles in which he believed. If I recall correctly, he was once asked if he thought GTA was ever even converted. His opinion was that based on many of GTA's actions, knowledge, and statements, he thought he was. However, he also believed that GTA grieved the Holy Spirit. Nobody else in the organization would have been capable of making such a statement. Not one.

Despite differences in theology, this was an exceptional man. My condolences to his wife, family, and close personal friends.

BB

Anonymous said...

Ron Dart was a nice man. I knew a lot of nice men in the WCG, etc. And then I found out that most of them not only allowed for GTA's constant dalliances, they turned their heads to HWA's incest, which they knew about long before the rank-and-file members did. So I'm torn regarding their legacy. I agree that it's perplexing to think that Dart went with Ted back in 1978, even if he did feel shunned by HWA at the time. But, no rejoicing in hearing of someone's passing.

Anonymous said...

Fedup, you complain about about people worrying and focusing on who gets the most credit. But that's the way it should be. What motivates people is self interest. What motivates people is profit. This what drives people. Which is why smart phones for instance, are getting cheaper and better. The commie wet dream is that people be motivated by service to others. This lie is taught in the Armstrongite churches. This is what happens when people are taught the 'give way' rather than trade. What God created is motivation by self interest and profit. It is a moral fundamental constant, like the speed of light. This 'let's focus on the outcome and forget/minimize rewarding people,' is commie unreality, claptrap. Armstrong has deceived and twisted most church members minds, and they don't even know it. Fedup, I know what you mean, cause I can read. And I'm not intimidated with all your talk of pride, humility, peacemaker etc either.

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones at 11:11 AM wrote, speaking of Moses and Aaron: "...they didn't make it into the Promised Land..."

Moses did enter the promised land; however, God did not allow Moses to cross the Jordan River to the western portion of the promised good land.

For example, Deut 3:27 says:

"Get thee up into the top of Pisgah, and lift up thine eyes westward, and northward, and southward, and eastward, and behold it with thine eyes: for thou shalt NOT GO OVER this Jordan." Numbers 3:27

Moses had to be within the promised land in order to look North, South, East and West and view it. He just could not cross the Jordan. The promised land existed on both sides of the Jordan River. Moses was on the east side of the Jordan River and in the promised land.

Additionally, if you'd like, go get a map of the promised land and look up the location of Pisgah and you will see that it was located in the promised land referred to as Reuben. Joshua would take the Israelites across the Jordan River (Deut 3:28) to the western portion of the promised land.

Also, where was Moses just before he died? For more information see Deut 34:1, 4:

Deut 34:1 "And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho. And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,"

Notice that mention is again made of the "top of Pisgah!" Look at your map. Moses saw portions of the promised land, but he was not going to cross that Jordan River:

:4 "And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to SEE IT WITH THINE EYES, but thou shalt NOT GO OVER thither."

He didn't go yonder, over thither, over the Jordan River (Deut 3:27), but Moses was in the promised land.

John

Anonymous said...

John, l don't believe you. Rather l believe God when he said 'but thou salt not go over thither.' This is a stern warning against minister abuse, yet you harp on definitions, trying to intellectualise it away. Shame on you.

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:52 PM

It isn't a matter of believing me. You don't believe the scriptures presented to you........and that's okay. You may believe whatever you wish...

John

Anonymous said...

Ron Dart may have been one of the better minions of hwa, but what good is that in an organization that was corrupt to the core from the beginning and has begotten more of the same? There are some good points above about the cgi that show what Dart was about. Additionally, if one reads through the ambassador reports, he will see that Dart enjoyed the perks of being at a high level in the wcg. There is no evidence that shows that he publicly admitted the evils doings of the wcg, hwa, or gta, etc. That should be a red flag. His friendliness as compared to other ministers is neither here nor there.

There have been comments about not having an ill will towards the dead. Regardless, it will be better as time goes on and people who lived during the heyday of the entirely corrupt wcg and believe/believed it to be the one true church are gone. Those who still exist in the various organizations are obviously a factor, but as this site constantly documents, those groups are dying and will die.

In the meantime, there seems to be an attitude that those (particularly the older people) in the offshoots or other groups who believe that laws such as the 10 Words are in effect seem to possess regardless of what type of organization to which they are presently attached. They have a sense of superiority that they are chosen and thus, their beliefs are correct. If they even admit that hwa (just one example) was a pervert, liar, and (tithe) thief (many do not), there seems to be the belief that they themselves are true.

This is true to the extent that they "know" that they are correct even in areas such as dates for the calendar. Their knowledge is better even than the Jews who have observed the calendar for CENTURIES longer because they are special ...a gift from heaven because they are/were in the one work.

This is true to them even though it is very difficult to find their children anywhere near a lifestyle as outlined by the scriptures. There are a few of these children that are involved, but it is almost invariable that you will find an old timer whose children are nowhere near observant. In fact, these children firmly reject any authority from scripture.

Additionally, it is usually the case in situations like these that the old timers do not seem to understand that their ways are the chief cause of this result. They do not seem to understand that the greater responsibility falls on them. It is as if the rejection by their children of any attempt to follow scripture is simply a trial resulting from the parents' belief in the one true way. If one observes these old timers, this belief will be found to be prevalent. There is no acceptance that they were involved in evil (no matter to what extent) and thus, no attempt to try to correct the problem.

Anonymous said...


continued....

Many here will be glad that the children have rejected their parents as they either believe in mainstream church theology or no longer believe much of anything in the scriptures as a result of their former life of being brainwashed or forced as children to endure the evil of the wcg and organizations like it. It is good that organizations like the wcg and people like hwa are rejected. They should be.

In reality, it really does not matter if an organization has some truth (e.g. wcg) and even does not abuse its membership (unlike the wcg then and others today). Understanding partial truth does no good ever and it never will. One can see that by observing mainstream churches today. They may be better (nicer), but they too are dwindling because they promote many things that are not true and are thus, evil.

When a person or organization can understand that he/it does not understand everything, then he/it will seek to understand all things that are to be done by a believer and will learn that even with perfect understanding, the gift of the Messiah is necessary. This is the way of faith. The scriptures show this to be true. Otherwise, the individual/organization will fail. In short, every individual realizes that he himself must seek the truth and that an organization does not dictate it to him.

An organization made up of members with this attitude will be strong because it can learn from the individual members accepting what is true and weeding out what is not (along with those who fight against truth). One of the evil beliefs is that the need to have lots of money for the organization is one of the most significant aspects of following the way.

So the "fact" that Ron Dart was better than others in evil organizations is entirely irrelevant. If scripture is true, then there is a way to be, it can be known, and those that are chosen (who follow it by faith) will be blessed. If that way is narrow, then it is what it is and there is nothing that can be done about that. Those who do evil (or attach themselves to those who do) will have to answer for it no matter how much or little evil they were a part of because even being attached to evil causes problems.

Of course, if there is no higher being, then none of this matters because there is no RIGHT way.

Anonymous said...

6.08 l believe the scriptures presented, but l disagree with your conclusion. Yes, l will believe what l chose. Why challenge Gods threats to evil church leaders, unless you agree with what they are doing? Are you a wolf in sheeps clothing yourself?

Anonymous said...

9.55 PM your opinion "Of course, if there is no higher being, then none of this matters because there is no RIGHT way." is a common one, but incorrect. That's like saying that if there is no higher being, all gardening rules can be ignored. The ten commandments are hard wired into reality. Which is why atheist societies still obey many of Gods laws. It's the power crazed ministry that teaches, 'obey these rules cause we says so.' They want people to ignore why these rules, and where they come from. People understanding this, lowers minsters power level.

Anonymous said...

He lived to be over 80. A lot longer than some who were told to avoid medical care when they were sick.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:34 AM

It is obvious that there is a Creator who has directives that the creation is to follow. The last statement was used as a way of showing that.

Everyone including those who say they do not believe in a higher power knows that there are things that are right and things that are wrong. It is the way things are and cannot be disputed in a logical manner. Those people do not like statements such as that last one, but if there were no Creator, then it would be true. That is not an opinion. However, since the Creator exists, the last statement is not in effect, never has been, and never will be.

The obvious realization that there is a Creator means that what scriptures say is what is to be done as the previous statements in the response show. Thus, the point that Dart may have been "better" than other ministers is not relevant.

There is nothing good about a person or organization that is "not as bad" as another when it comes to what the Creator wants from a believer.

Miller Jones said...

Who gets the credit? For those of you who still subscribe to proof texting (and to demonstrate that these principles are not foreign to Scripture for those of you who have moved beyond that practice), some evidence:
Repentance as the gift of God:
Romans 2:4 and Acts 11:18
Righteousness as God's gift:
Philippians 3:9, Isaiah 61:10, Galatians 2:20-21, Romans 4:2-8, 5:17, II Corinthians 5:21
The Holy Spirit as God's gift:
John 4:10, Acts 8:20 and II Timothy 1:6
Eternal life as God's gift:
John 10:28, Romans 6:23 and Ephesians 2:8
Enjoying the fruits of our labor as God's gift:
Ecclesiastes 3:13 and 5:19
Our wealth as God's gift:
Deuteronomy 8:17-18
Everything as God's gift:
James 1:17 and I Timothy 6:17
John, Are you pointing out an inconsistency in Scripture? Most Fundamentalist would say that the Promised Land is clearly defined here as being beyond the Jordan River (Mt.Nebo is on the other side of the river.
As for the original subject (the passing of Ron Dart), Mr. Dart (like everyone) will not be judged by how much of the truth he grasped, but by what he did with what he had. If Satan really has deceived the whole world, that includes everybody (including everyone reading this comment). How can we grow in grace and truth if we are already in full possession of them?

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones,

You cited excellent verses showing who gets the credit. To supplement a little bit in addition to what you have written, we know that no flesh will glory in God's presence. Even salvation won't be according to any credit, or works, people think they are accruing in their lives.

2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"

Human beings are like clay, or to use something Isaiah told us:

Isaiah 64:8 "But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand."

The clay has no reason to take any credit for anything, especially when one is the workmanship of God's hands.

God has a lot of gifts He intends to share with humanity before all is said and done.

You asked: "...John, Are you pointing out an inconsistency in Scripture? Most Fundamentalist would say that the Promised Land is clearly defined here as being beyond the Jordan River (Mt.Nebo is on the other side of the river..."

That may be true, but what does scripture say? On an earlier comment I cited a verse that showed Moses could see the land to be inherited if he looked north, south, east and west; Moses had to be in the midst of the promised land in order to do that.

The Israelites inherited land on both sides of the Jordan River. Manasseh's inherited land existed on both sides of the Jordan River: just look at an Old Testament map showing where the tribes inherited their land.

Here's a verse speaking about the inheritance of Gad, Reuben and half the tribe of Manasseh. They are all inheritors of the promised land, but their land was located on the east side of the Jordan River. The rest of the tribes, including the other half of the tribe of Manasseh, were located all on the west side of the Jordan river.

Numbers 34:14 "For the tribe of the children of Reuben according to the house of their fathers, and the tribe of the children of Gad according to the house of their fathers, have received their inheritance; and half the tribe of Manasseh have received their inheritance:"

John

Anonymous said...

I knew Ron Dart and Mrs.Dart since I was 10 or 11 and he was the pastor of the Birmingham church in England. He was one of the more interesting speakers. Overall I would say he did a good job as a pastor and was definitely a lot smarter than most. My family had many problems and my mother was mentally ill. Other ministers in the Church said she was demon possessed, but Ron Dart said she probably had a chemical imbalance (this was in the late 1960's) so fairly insightful of him for that period.

My dad got thrown out of the church 3 times, at least once by Ron Dart, and I think the other 2 times by underlings of Mr. Dart. I got the feeling that my dad was too honest when being counselled by various ministers, and voiced disagreements with various doctrines. The last time he was thrown out of Gods true church around 1970 it was for having a messy house which was not the way a christian's house should be.

At one time he received a letter from Mr.Dart assuring him that probably he(my dad) had never been converted and never had the holy spirit, so was still able to have salvation if the truly repented. At the time I thought this was a silly thing to say, being as my dad had been a baptised church member and was a true believer and tithed faithfully for many many years. And how could a human being know such things, strange that he also made a judgement on GTA in this matter.

After his departure from Gods true church for the third and last time, my dad became an independent and started his own ministry. He said God had called him to preach a message. His message was "ALL will be saved" and then a bunch of scriptures. He went to the poor area of Birmingham and walked around the market area carrying a sign with his message. This was about 1973, so he was preaching much of GCI's message way before they formed..........

Anonymous said...

Steve walks warily down the street,
With the brim pulled way down low
Ain't no sound but the sound of his feet,
Machine guns ready to go

Are you ready,
Are you ready for this
Are you hanging on the edge of your seat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

[Chorus]

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
And another one gone, and another one gone
Another one bites the dust

Hey, I'm gonna get you too
Another one bites the dust

How do you think I'm going to get along,
Without you, when you're gone
You took me for everything that I had, <------- N.B.
And kicked me out on my own

Are you happy, are you satisfied
How long can you stand the heat
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
To the sound of the beat

[Chorus]

Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust
Another one bites the dust

There are plenty of ways you can hurt a man
And bring him to the ground
You can beat him
You can cheat him
You can treat him bad and leave him
When he's down

But I'm ready, yes I'm ready for you
I'm standing on my own two feet
Out of the doorway the bullets rip
Repeating the sound of the beat

Anonymous said...

"I got the feeling that my dad was too honest when being counselled by various ministers.... "

Telling the truth is a fatal disorder in an age of universal deceit.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:45 PM,

Regarding your dad, you wrote: "...His message was "ALL will be saved" and then a bunch of scriptures..."

I don't know whether you agreed with your Dad or not, but your Dad will be in God's Kingdom if the Apostle Paul's words ring true and God does accomplish reconciling the world unto Himself:

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19

It's not a universal salvation, because Satan and his angels will be taken and destroyed (2 Peter 2:12; Matthew 25:41, 46, Ezekiel 28:16-19, etc.}.

John

Anonymous said...

2 part post at January 24, 2016 at 9:55 PM
"Ron Dart may have been one of the better minions of hwa, but what good is that in an organization that was corrupt to the core from the beginning and has begotten more of the same?"
"So the 'fact' that Ron Dart was better than others in evil organizations is entirely irrelevant."
"Understanding partial truth does no good ever and it never will."
..umm, I thought that was how you are led or find your way to a greater truth. Especially, "When a person or organization can understand that he/it does not understand everything, then he/it will seek to understand all things..." or "In short, every individual realizes that he himself must seek the truth and that an organization does not dictate it to him." ...maybe also, that no person or organization is solely entitled to 'truth'?

"An organization made up of members with this attitude will be strong..."
1.)Because they realize that their organization is nothing more than that, which is, just a group of people who want to know what they have been learning and possibly from,
2.)Because they are willing to learn from each other rather than banishing each other from God,
3.)They desire to help each other on a difficult path rather than "get out of my way",
4.)they choose to become explorers in developing better character and NOT judges,
5.)they lead by example through their deeds and behaviour and NOT by an entitlement of authority or charades,
6.)they see themselves as making a contribution toward this further education.

DBP

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 3:58 AM

"Understanding partial truth does not good ever and it never will"

Perhaps that statement is too strong. What was intended to be conveyed is that those who have partial truth and think they have it all or have it right when they do not (e.g. misunderstanding calendars, thinking they are in the one true church, following clearly evil individuals and others who associate/work with said individuals, etc.) is what was intended. Such people do not pursue correct knowledge because they think they already have it.

Those who do not know truth, realize it, and are working to learn truth are not being described there.

Nothing was said to imply that either one person or one organization is entitled to the truth. The Creator gives to whom He will and those people have works that reflect this. There is nothing in scripture that says anything about one person or one organization being entitled to the truth, except that it does say that the Messiah (is/was) the way and that the way is truth which makes sense given He has no sin and that those who are chosen grow in the spirit of grace and knowledge. Acting in the way described produces these results.

Good points at the end although in number 4, they learn to judge properly. Proper judgment is a quality that one led by faith develops. The Messiah is perfect at judgment. Others like Paul became better at it.

Anonymous said...

All those ministers defame ex members so why do some of you say nice things about them? They are all bad.

Anonymous said...

From the Journal.

Perhaps
the most telling indication of
the caliber, character and compassion
of Ronald Lee Dart happened
on the day of his death (Jan. 23, 2016).
When his death was announced on
the leading anti–Church of God blog
(run by Gary Leonard at armstrong
ismlibrary.blogspot.co.nz) there was
an outpouring of respect for his life
and regret over his death expressed by
visitors to the blog.
Some of those guys on that blog
can be crude, callous and cryptic, but
Ron Dart was spared their vitriol, and
not because of any polite notion that
one must not speak evil of the dead.
Those guys hold no such scruples.
It was because of the sheer weight
of Ron’s godly influence. No matter
how cynical, you could not help but
be impressed by Ron Dart.

Wow BB, "crude, callous and cryptic, holding no scruples" that can never be a description of you in my opinion. So I feel obliged to make an entry here!

Around 1985/87 I was in regular contact with Ron Dart serving cgi from the North of England at that time. Always polite and gentlemanly conversation. It was only later that I discovered how "high up" he had been before. At that time that was exemplary behavior to me.

nck


Anonymous said...

Only to further clarify my POV,
anon said above:"Good points at the end although in number 4, they learn to judge properly. Proper judgment is a quality that one led by faith develops. The Messiah is perfect at judgment. Others like Paul became better at it."

I must add that it is ONLY through exploration of feedback that one can learn to judge properly rather than claiming or speaking from some imagined position of authority. If the Messiah is perfect at judgement, that does not automatically include those who say "The Messiah has perfect judgement" like Paul for example. It is entirely 100% more important for someone to behave with Christ-like character rather than convincing others that they do.

DBP

Anonymous said...

nck said:"It was only later that I discovered how "high up" he had been before. At that time that was exemplary behavior to me."

What do you mean by this?

Anonymous said...

"Ron Dart was spared their vitriol, and not because of any polite notion... It was because of the sheer weight of Ron’s godly influence."

Speaking for myself, that says alot about armstrongism, doesn't it? RLD didn't positively influence people because he held or had a "position of authority" in some so-called church of god, but only with his actual behaviour.

DBP

Anonymous said...

6:34

Hello Anon,

No hidding meaning here. Just that at the time I dealt with truly arrogant myopic "pastor rank" types and now I was conversing with an "ordained evangelist" in handwritten notes on a personal basis who to me seemed to work in humble circumstances (as compared to wcg offices at the time).

For me quite out of the ordinary at that time.
The "exemplary part" is that in my present capacity I judge any manager by their servant leadership. I have seen many mighty fall.

nck

Anonymous said...

"Ron Dart was spared their vitriol, and not because of any polite notion... It was because of the sheer weight of Ron’s godly influence."

Speaking for myself, that says alot about armstrongism, doesn't it? RLD didn't positively influence people because he held or had a "position of auhtority" in some so-called church of god, but only with his actual behaviour.

DBP

Anonymous said...

Would someone delete my double post? I was unsure if I hadn't posted it earlier.
thanks

DBP

Anonymous said...

Thanks for the info nck. I thought that maybe you were implying that his character was a result of his church rank.

DBP