This just in from Charlotte:
Rod Meredith has asked the leaders of COGWA to secret meetings here in Charlotte. The COGWA men have been at LCG headquarters in meetings both yesterday and today. As of now I am uncertain how long they will be in Charlotte.
My 1st though is that Rod is so desperate to avoid bankruptcy that he might even be considering giving up a little power and control to merge with the financially successful COGWA. Perhaps Rod has calculated that at this time he wouldn't really lose too much since he is about to step down anyway into semi-retirement anyway.
It's no secret that Doug Winnail has wanted to unify LCG, UCG and COGWA for years but he stands alone in his desire because none of the other men are willing to make compromises or relinquish even the smallest amount of control. In true ACOG fashion is ultimately boils down to money and power. None are willing to risk the things they worship above all else.
If a deal is to be made, it will have to happen before Gerald Weston takes over in August because Mr. Weston has made it very clear to all who ask that he doesn't think UCG and COGWA are even COG's. He firmly believes that LCG is not just the "spear head" but rather the whole kit and caboodle, the ONLY COG on earth.
Winnail would be smart to use his skills as a diplomat to secure himself a new job in COGWA while these men are in town. The writing on the wall spells splintering in LCG in the not so distant future. Old Dougie boy would be smart to get out unscathed while he still can.
Its interesting to read this. Both LCG and COGWA consider themselves the ONLY true Church of God doing a work on this earth today. Both imagine themselves to be the tools for God on this earth. Both groups are totally unknown to the world. Neither one is making any impact.
The reality is that both of these groups are filled with men who plotted and schemed while still on Worldwide Church of God payroll to secretly form new groups. These same men disfellowshipped countless people while still in WCG because of the "new covenant" teachings. While they sat there as tools of the Tkach changes; they all knew that once word leaked that they did not agree with the changes they would be fired. Being the unethical men that so many of them were (and still are) they plotted and schemed on how to start a new group while secretly encouraging WCG members to leave with their tithe money, thus ensuring their comfortable salaries did not end.
Once the new corporation soles were in place they jumped ship and portrayed themselves as God's most humble servants that were only trying to preserve God's teachings. Yet both groups were filled with deceit and corruption with both ending up splintering off the churches they helped start. Once they splintered off they set themselves back up once again as God's most important and loyal men to ever walk this earth.
Now both COGWA and LCG are facing internal conflicts that are ready to erupt. Abusive men have had power too long and people are getting fed up with them. A merger with COGWA and LCG does not bode well for the members of either group. The power structures in place will become more legalistic and abusive. People will splinter off again into another group or leave the COG entirely. More lives will be ruined just so the bog boys can keep their salaries intact.
39 comments:
Doug Winnail(Associate Pastor) and Jim Franks (Pastor) pastored a WCG church circuit together in the 80's (Boston, MA and Providence, RI)- it makes sense they would have this alliance.
Once upon a time both Jim Franks and Doug Winnail were part of the United Ass. Doug didn't remain in United Association too long and flipped over to Living group and eventually Jim Franks flipped over to the cogwa group. It is like a game of musical groups.
Does what goes around come around? About 18 years ago a pastor of one United congregation asked the brethren to pray for the possible merger of United and the Living group. Today, that United pastor is part of cogwa group.
Back when United was formed many former wcg pastors (who left their ministerial credentials behind when they left wcg/Pasadena) wanted nothing to do with the Living (actually Global before it imploded) group, but why?
One of the main reasons was because many of the leaders striving to form United used to be students under Rod Meredith........and they wanted nothing more to do with "the Rod!"
Does what goes around come around? It all sounds so silly as they all flounder around in the milk of the word (10 Commandments, annual Holydays, Sabbath, tithing, clean vs. unclean meats, etc.) with copious amounts of Junk Food (think of all of those unfulfilled prophecies about 10 kings/nations and their Mickey Mouse Millennium they preach about with Jesus Christ reigning on earth...they rarely think about what happens AFTER Satan is loosed from the pit. How come Jerusalem is taken over again? They sing about it in one of their songs! Where was Jesus Christ there protecting Jerusalem and its inhabitants? etc.).
This is 2016. What's the big concern? Self and mammon, employment, retirement, etc....all Self. Time is telling on them all...they have gone virtually nowhere.
One minister made an insightful comment via a memo about hopes for Indianapolis was sent to Victor Kubik, which Victor read on the last day (2 May 1995) to all attending the 1995 Indianapolis Conference that resulted in the forming of the United Ass. That memo follows:
******
CAN IT EVER BE? That cohesive, Christ-led entity that we all want so dearly? Or does Indy seal our fate to factions and factions? The hopes are high, the stakes are critical. Indy will be either a dawning of a New World Tomorrow, or the proof of our folly.
PIE IN THE SKY is what the detractors say. Some of them are us, you know. Our “leaders” have already laid foundations and are even laying superstructure. The meek words of just a few weeks ago… “We’ve just started this in case it’s of any help, but we’ll gladly dissolve it” are seemingly replaced with corporate structure lauding the wisdom of “follow me.” Has “unity” already slipped to a cliché, a buzzword of egotists? I’ve seen that once people invest time, money and gain supporters they “have God’s blessing.” After all, they prayed about it.
Dissolution of their structure for a greater cause becomes too great a defeat. The show must go on.
WHAT IS INDY? It’s a chance for a ground up, New Testament organized body of believers.
WHAT WILL INDY BE? I know what you and I want it to be. But do you know what many see it as? Separate leaders of several pre-formed groups pushing their system at each other, followed by the winner selling it to the ministry. The ministry is invited to view the outcome and cast in their lot, depending on who "wins" and if they like the smell of it.
WHO LOOSES IF INDY FALTERS? The churches back home. The little flocks who are staking their faith in Indy. The loyal pastors who have forfeited everything to wait on Christ and to come learn his will for their next step. I hope He’s there. He resists the proud and gives grace to the humble.
Just some concerns and fears…I don’t know what it WILL be, I know what it MIGHT be and what it CAN be. I’ll be there in support. Be careful who gets control. Make sure it’s God.
******
God is not in charge of any of these groups of confusion and blindness..........
John
This is like a kind of a PS as I had some "second thoughts" to what I wrote above...and this will be short.
What has time been proving as evidence provided by this blogsites' readers and many other sites as well? God is not in control of any of these "manmade" groups, associations, professing "churches of god," etc.
I suggest that if God is in control and is working with those of His Church, proof has been amply provided to prove that God's Church has to busy elsewhere...elsewhere, somewhere other than amongst United, Global, Living, cogwa...where confusion continues to reign supreme to this day.
With all of the problems going on with the former Worldwide Church of God it would have been easy for everyone to just leave wcg and go to Rod Meredith's Global.......oh, but Global no longer exists. I guess God wasn't in control there either!
What else can be said? Probably lots, but there will also be these words of Jesus Christ:
"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Matthew 15:13
People involved with these groups appear to be continually be being "rooted up," and life goes on.........and mammon continues to flow. Those in these groups think they are the only ones on earth NOT DECEIVED. They think it is everyone else that is deceived. They think everyone else is hopping around from ditch to ditch as if blind and groping around.
Again, time will tell...and time is telling...
John
Gee... forget the two trees -- the Tree of Life has died (probably chopped down and used for Lake of Fire wood).
There is now a forest of 700 Trees of no knowledge of good and totally evil, sprung forth from the taproot of bitterness planted by Herbert Armstrong.
Pray for bankruptcy -- financial, because, as it turns out, they are already bankrupt in nearly every other way.
“My 1st though is that Rod is so desperate to avoid bankruptcy that he might even be considering giving up a little power and control to merge with the financially successful COGWA.”
Global went bankrupt. Living can go bankrupt too. What goes around, comes around--and around and around, in that crazy circus. The self-appointed COG leaders today are all spiritually bankrupt. They are also morally and mentally bankrupt. They can become financially bankrupt too. That is the least of their problems. They just think that financial bankruptcy is the worst kind of bankruptcy because they are so mentally, morally, and spiritually bankrupt.
“Mr. Weston has made it very clear to all who ask that he doesn't think UCG and COGWA are even COG's.”
The UCG is a Church of Godlessness (COG), so it is a COG in that sense, but not in any other sense.
Use Herbies own words, he admitted the tree of life was the wrong tree. The tree of live resides with evil men, for God loves evil men.
Living and Worldwide (COG's/Association) coming together will require some brand new INITIALS!
So I quickly entered Living and Worldwide into the ANAGRAM generator to see what we could come up with! All of the letters are used in each of the following ...
GROWN WILL DIVIDER COG
I GOVERN WILD WILD COG
WE WILD OLD VIRGIN COG
LOVING WILD WE RID COG
WILD LOWER DIVING COG
Gun lap to collapse, falling down loss of support.
"Secret"; really?
All the ministry were told about the upcoming meeting in a general memo and were further told of the purpose.
More bluster from this blogmaster. Leading to more unfounded speculation from dumb minions.
Even IF a merger does happen, I don't see the brethren merging very peacefully. As a former LCG member I know very well the attitude that LCG has towards COGWA, ministry as well as members. I also personally know members of COGWA, as being a part of a family that is divided by all the different ACOG groups. The feedback I get from those friends and family is they think of LCG with just as much disdain as LCG has towards COGWA, with good reason if you ask me. I have personally witnessed the verbal attacks a family member received when they came to a LCG service because there was no available COGWA congregation in the area when they were visiting family. I was appalled by the behavior of LCG members on that day.
Also, not to defend Meredith by any means but I think its a little far fetched to immediately jump to the conclusion of merger by one meeting. Meredith has met with other leaders of other ACOG groups before and nothing came of it. If anything I would bet they were meeting because of the prominent presence and threat this and other blogs have over the ACOGS. Or even possibly the impending "stepping down" of Meredith. My bet is if there ever were to be a merger (which again I believe to be highly unlikely as Meredith and other ministers would completely have to eat their words) it would be after Meredith dies and after Winnail splits himself. I do find his interest and ties with COGWA and UCG interesting being how he likes to talk down to other beliefs in general in so many of his sermons. I also have personally heard his opinion of how watered down UCG and COGWA are at a dinner once.
If this report is true it shows once again that the " shepherds " do not and never do have the sheep in mind. If they were by some great miracle, merge, there would be loss of sheep on both sides. This has never been the concern. It's all about the ministers income. I can't understand why a financial solid cogwa would want to attach to an evil liar and pervert like Meredith. There has to be more going on here. You also have a handful of highly untrained idiots like Ceiselka at HQ. Where will they go? Who really wants Jimmy boy?
Interesting times in the cog universe. It is clear that everything still revolves around money and power.
It will be entertaining to see Winnail split himself.
Many would like a merger to do away with the present competition among st the various groups. They hanker for the good old days, where they could abuse congregations almost without limit, and get away with it. It was a paradise for predatory perverts. With competition, victims can escape the worst of the abuse by joining another group. Ministers and their evil minions have wet dreams of another Armstrong like monopoly.
I doubt that Larry Salyer, who has been in about 6 groups now over the years, including a stint prior with Meredith, and then UCG, and now COGWA , (and is on the COGWA board) would be thrilled with a merger idea.
Anonymous at 9:03 AM said...
“It was a paradise for predatory perverts. With competition, victims can escape the worst of the abuse by joining another group.”
Unfortunately, the abuse cannot be totally avoided just by joining another COG splinter group. The abuse can be avoided only by NOT joining another splinter group.
LCG COGWA can not join because it is unequally yoked, Jim Franks represents a corrupt leader, full of ambition, Walker, langarica sacked the United Church of God in South America and Franks knows, out corrupt leaders, hopefully this is just rumor, LCG should not thieves at his side. Ali Franks and the 40 Thieves.
The meeting and its results could end up being unknown and secret for some time into the future. It may help us in making educated guesses if we knew specifically what individuals were involved in the meeting, but our best bets would be on a verifiably authentic leak, someone who was actually an integral part of the meeting.
We seem to know more about LCG than we do about the COGaWA. That's due to several factors. Some dissatisfied members and former members of LCG have posted here and on ESN, sharing factual information, letting readers know what day to day conditions are being faced by the membership. There was also the very public mess with Bob Thiel, and the injustices that were handed down to the Scarbrough family. Finally, people are mindful of RCM's health issues.
But, what does anyone really know about COGWA? To a large extent, they are off the radar. There was the early scrap when some of the beneficiaries of the philanthropy of UCG, ie recipients of cattle, left UCG for COGWA, and assumed that they could take the cows with them. We also know that as a group, they are top-heavy with members of the ministry. However, there really is very little specific information about them on the blogosphere. Have they even endured their first splinter yet?
I never knew Larry Salyer. His brother Mark and I enjoyed some pleasant exchanges on a couple of blogs. But wouldn't it be interesting if Larry, based on his tenure and experiences in several of the splinters, ended up taking an ecumenical role in reuniting some of the splinters? Like most of the people mentioned as possible candidates for such a role, he is beyond conventional retirement age. However, he is much younger than the present age of the ministers who were in their prime in the 1960s, and depending on health and basic vibrancy, might be effective in a leadership role for another 5-10 years.
This is the sort of development in which one must wait for the proverbial other shoe to drop. If there were to be a take-over, internal bets of the organizers would be on most members accepting inevitability and being massaged into remaining with the group, while a certain percentage would leave in the various usual ways. Hope for less cruel governance and fewer acts of fiduciary misconduct could provide some salving incentives for the members. If there is financial insolvency involved with one of the groups, that group may have diminished influence upon the final metrics of the combined group.
.But, this is a breaking news event. It may mean something as it develops, or it could end up being just as useless as the self-aggrandizing prophecies that have been made by other splinter leaders. We simply need more information than we presently possess.
BB
12:05 Maybe it wasn't a "secret" from LCG ministry but I am a member in Charlotte and it was a "secret" from us. So yes, I think that qualifies as a "secret meeting" smart ass. Nice to see you are on this site though. Maybe you can take note and learn how unflattering your members think your bully-style shepherding is. Thanks for visiting. Come again.
Two of my friends are still COGers. One is in COGWA and one is in LCG. The COGWA member will attend with LCG when they are in town visiting but the LCG member refuses to attend with COGWA when their family visits the other.
LCG members suffer from a major superiority complex. They are arrogant, condescending and zero percent humble (or joyous, forgiving, loving, etc for that matter). LCG members fully believe that they are the one and only Church of God and that all others are inferior and deceived. They are not at all friendly or welcoming. I attended LCG for a time so I can say that with certainty.
I don't know many COGWA members and I know none of their leaders so I'll refrain from speculating, but my experience is that most ACOG people are the same (self-righteous).
I can't imagine a merge ever happening. All that pride and power. These are not people known for unity but rather division on every level. Meredith's legacy is division of group, family, marriage and friendships.
Maybe the younger members (are there even any younger members?) are pro-unity but from my ACOG experience, I can firmly state that the old-timers (many whom still believe women shouldn't wear pants, make-up or nail polish) will never be in favor of a merge.
LCG to COGWA:
"Money don't get everything it's true
But what it don't get I can't use
I want money
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
That's what I want
(That's what I want)
I want money
I want lots of money
In fact I want so much money
Give me your money
Just give me money"
--Money (That's What I Want) Lyrics
Anon 5:56 said "Jim Franks represents a corrupt leader, full of ambition"
My comment: And Rod Meredith ISN'T a corrupt leader, full of ambition?!
I have no desire to defend Franks because I really don't know him. Maybe he's awful.
But it would be really, really, really hard for me to believe that he could be MORE full of ambition and MORE corrupt that RCM who I DO know well. Anon 5:56 has obviously chosen to put his head in the sand regarding Meredith and his historical record of greed, corruption and prideful ambition. Not to mention his meanness, grudge-holding and above all else LYING. Meredith has destroyed so many of God's people over the decades of his reign. I hope he's ready to answer for all that because he is old, feeble and his end is near. Judgment day will be very different for Mr. 3rd in all the universe than he THINKS it's going to be. May God have mercy on his hateful, prideful soul.
Winnail has already split himself. It is obvious if you stay up to date with his writings. He is more accepting of Jesus and more willing to write of the things He left for us as an example. The weightier points of the law like love, peace making and mercy. Yet, he stays in the loveless Only Your Works Can Save You LCG. It is plain to see that he doesn't fit in with them ideologically. It seems like his heart and mind have moved on but his wallet really likes that 6 figure salary so he's not moving anywhere.
Anonymous 556 obviously doesn't know the story of how thief Meredith started LCG in the first place. Or how he stole money from 3rd tithe to decorate his home in Pasadena.
COGWA was big on a college idea. LIVING is pursuing accreditation. Could it be a possible joint venture in regards to just a common college that might be discussed?
To Anonymous 6:29 (and any who can who discern....)
LCG attitudes are "bred in the Bone" . . . attitudes going back to the 1998 Split..
I'm a former Global COG person who refused to join Living COG, seeing this behavior of LCOG back in 1998:
1. Stealing supplies from another Church, their rightful owner
2. Absolute Reverance of Wealthy Members and neglect of poor retirees
(after all, where did those big checks come from...)
3. Shabby treatment of anyone who wouldn't join LCOG.
( a woman I know reduced to tears by the haughty rejection by a LCOG member more concerned with "her position" than human kindness)
4. General rejection if you wouldn't come to THEIR services!
5. The arrogance at high levels that gave "family" or wealthy tithe-payers a
free pass.
You LCOG members that see this, sorry you've had to endure this. It goes back a long long way and moving the little dictators (where are the shepherds?) around doesnt fix it.
Connie, I was at another blog, where a woman had a pic of herself, similar to yours. It came out that her pic was from over fifty years ago. Just wondering, is your pic, basically you?
Anonymous - January 21, 2016 at 6:09 AM
In virtually every human organisation - business, educational, religious, sports associations, (you name it) executives hold meetings without announcing them before-hand. In the vast majority of cases the general staff/members do not get out-of-shape and protest 'secret meetings'.
If you, "member in Charlotte", believe that Jesus Christ is ultimately the head of the church, then trust Him to govern His church. If you don't believe He governs, then you need to find a church where you are confident He is in ultimately in charge. Otherwise you are wasting your life.
Please, print-out your comments on paper and do what Hezekiah did. Get on your knees, spread
the paper before Christ Himself and seek His guidance and any correction that may be necessary. Then later come back here and tell us what you have received.
All the best. May God bless you.
Connie said, "COGWA was big on a college idea. LIVING is pursuing accreditation. Could it be a possible joint venture in regards to just a common college that might be discussed?"
MY COMMENT - I think Connie may be on to something here. If she is not, the splinters should at least consider a common college to reduce costs and achieve better economies of scale. Oh, that's right - Armstrong Churches of God working together for a greater common good than their own warring splinter fiefdoms? No, it would never happen! They are too busy cannibalizing each other until the entire Armstrong movement croaks.
Personally, I always thought Ambassador College could have been saved despite what happened to the Worldwide Church of God had cooler heads and smarter people had come forward to save a college with 13,000 alumni. Little Joey Tkach could have licensed a campus to all the Armstrong Churches to use and still maintained control. Starting an Ambassador Endowment might have helped. But no, why save a college institution and trash the alma mater of 13,000 people? Oh, and we were taught it was "God's College".
Richard
ANON at 11:00 - Nope, whatever you saw was not me.
@253 Jesus Christ is the head of the Church. Only, there is no way LCG is His Church.
Surely God could find men of less corrupt character than Rod and Jim Meredith to lead His Church?
Surely leaders in God's Church have the fruits of the Spirit. Christ stopped judgmental men from stoning an adulterous woman because he personified love and mercy. Rod Meredith personifies abuse of power, conditional love and is completely devoid of mercy.
God's Church is alive but most certainly IS NOT a one [evil] man family business.
Why don't you study RCM's past and then get on your knees and repent for following such a corrupt liar. Then beg God to open your eyes and your heart to Christ's awesome sacrifice, kindness, love and mercy. Then pray that He will allow that to live within you. Until that happens, you will never realize how lacking LCG really us.
6.37 PM Connie, I didn't mean her pic was you, but rather I was wondering whether the pic you show here, is you or a very much younger you.
The pro LCG guy is splitting hairs about whether or not the meetings qualify as "secret". The problem is a lack of transparency.
If only the LCG elite (aka ministers) knew about the meeting then it could easily be viewed as being secret to the tithe paying members who feel left out in the dark. If nothing is really going on then there's nothing to hide. Transparency solves the problem. As it is it feels like they were trying to do it in secret regardless of if that is just perception or if it is in fact reality.
Anon 2:53 said, if you "believe that Jesus Christ is ultimately the head of the church, then trust Him to govern His church."
This is so typical of LCG leadership. If members dare to think for themselves or question anything, LCG tries to twist it around to imply that not trusting them whole heartedly is akin to not trusting Christ Himself. To question ministry is to question Christ. To mistrust ministry is to mistrust Christ.
They are so confused!
God says put your trust in NO MAN but LCG ministry expects members to trust in them because without them you can't get into the kingdom.
The funny thing is that I was Catholic before I got sucked into Armstrongism. I didn't see the similarities at first but in hindsight there are frightening similarities. Clergy as intercessors. Clergy can assess repentance or the lack thereof. Clergy can get away with things members can't. Clergy expect the ring of the pop (Meredith) to be kissed by the lowly in blind adoration. Clergy abuse members and sweep it under the rug. And on and on and on.
"then trust Him to govern ?His church' is assuming that Christ is micro managing the church and church members lives. This is not so. In the parable of the talents, Christ is depicted as going to a far country ie people are given responsibility rather than treated like child idiots. After Christs rose from the death, and showed Himself, He went back to heaven rather than sticking around micromanaging peoples live. God is a God of personal responsibility. The Living Dead Church of God, does not agree with Christ, insisting rather on treating adults as children.
Here's Rod's logic: Jesus Christ is the Head of the church. If He chooses to remove the head of editorial or the head of mail processing, He can do it. If He chooses to remove me, He can do it. But since He hasn't, however imperfect I may be, those flaws haven't risen to the point where He has seen fit to remove me. Therefore, you need to realize that Jesus has decided to leave me in place as the leader if the Living Church of God, and if you reject me you are actually judging Jesus Christ.
The parallel: God is the head of Israel. He can remove any leader He wants to remove. But since He hasn't removed Saul from being king, if you rebel against Saul, you are rebelling against God. Therefore, when Saul commands you to kill 85 priests and their families, you must obey or you are disobeying God.
Remember, Saul was God's anointed and, even after he went insane, had God's spirit taken from him, and was rejected by God, was never removed from office.
You nailed it, 8:57! They teach that God's love and support for the leaders (whom they claim to be) is unconditional, even if they screw up. But, for the members? Not so much. In fact, according to them, guess who God's love is filtered through? So much for a direct, personal relationship with the One who knows the heart!
When they cite Saul, Moses, or David as if that were relevant case law for today, they are citing the wrong covenant, and misapplying the examples to themselves. That isn't about Godliness, it's simply a power grab. Mockery like that affects peoples' attitudes towards God.
BB
Anon at 8:49- it is a fairly current photo of me.
Post a Comment