For several decades the rumours about Herbert Armstrong's past have swirled around from various sources with a lot of fiction and fact mixed together. One of the biggest accusations against Herbert was him committing incest with his daughter Dorothy.
The Philadelphia Church of God with its endless quest of making Herbert out to be the most incredible man in human history, so much so that he has become an idol to the Flurryite empire. In their eyes, the man was incapable of doing no wrong, whether it was from running a church, writing articles, preaching, or committing unspeakable acts.
In their church propaganda rag, Royal Vision, July August 2020, Brian Davis has emphatically DISPROVED all the rumors about Herbert. DISPROVED, I tell you! DISPROVED! So let it be said, so let it be done.
Brian Davis, the bumbling buffoon, and wannabe right-hand man to Gerald Flurry says:
The real reason Davis is wetting his knickers is that to discredit HWA is to discredit Gerald Flurry and all church teachings. We can't have that now, can we?
Enter into this Bwana Bob Thiel. Davis quotes Thiel in his article. This is a wet dream come true for Thiel. to have a heretical COG quote his as a legitimate source, he gets his name out to a wider audience and that audience has always looked at Thiel as LCG did, as an arrogant self-appointed blow-hard.
So, there you have it, again, Bwana Bob did extensive research and says it is not true. No real Christian would ever dare criticize or question the Great Bwana's, Afterall, he is THE AUTHORITY upon EVERYTHING!
How can anyone, knowing how these men have lied their way to the top of their cult churches, lied about their leadership roll as a supposed appointment from God, lie about dreams, visions and revelations from their gods.
Bwana Bob has written about this article and adds this:
The fact that Bwana Bob quotes Bob Petry as a source of "truth s laughable considering how crazy Petry has been over the years.
Given the track record of abuse dished out in the Worldwide Church of God under Armstrong's leadership and the minions under him, the appaling documented abuses of Philadelphia Church o God leaders against members, and the outright lies of Bob Thiel and his self-appointment and false blessings, is there ay reason for us to take these three men at their word? But now we are supposed to.
You can read Davis article here as a pdf of Thiel's page. Charges Against Herbert Armstrong-DISPROVED!
116 comments:
The second to last paragraph completely blows any credibility the article may have to smithereens. Mal 2:5-6 refers to Levi and a covenant and God is upset with the priests who have corrupted themselves and the Levi covenant, and more about this covenant can be found in Deut 33:8-11.
The Malachi passage has absolutely positively NOTHING to do with HWA.
I remember reading an article on Bob's site before he left the LCG stating that third tithe should be used almost exclusively to pay for ministers retirement. He tried to justify this by claiming that social security is "broken" and that HWA had forbidden ministers to save for retirement.
How can any employer forbid an employee to save their money?? This is so childish. And claiming that the social security system of third tithe be hijacked by fiscally irresponsible ministers is plain theft. Bob has no moral credibility with me.
It would be interesting to hear what Brian Davis and Bob Thiel would have to say about the “rumours” regarding Garner Ted Armstrong's behavior. Did anyone ever see the video of GTA and the masseuse?
Many of the false leaders/dictators like Flurry, Pack & RCM propped up The false apostleship of Herbert W. Because they lusted for his level of power & control, much like you saw in the henchmen who hung around Stalin or Hitler. It was well known HWA spent countless $$ on his own Rolls Royce, numerous jets and 8 grand he spent on an ice bucket for Pete's sake. The sex perversion he had was well known. I remember hearing his grandson talking about his spending on a penis pump. I know Ted has issues but after my career working in medical psychiatry, he & his sister's probably has to endure a lot with HWA as their father.
Well do I remember HWA's member letter where he quoted GTA's "I could destroy you" -- and not elaborating on how GTA thought he could do that. I also remember the "must play" sermon following GTA's final departure, in which HWA was disfellowshipping people left and right. Only years later, thanks to Painful Truth, Exit and Support and other sites, I had access to statements and books that revealed the "how" behind GTA's implied threat.
I remember when Bob Thiel said he phoned GTA's office and wanted to ask him to verify the incest story, and GTA had an aide tell him to read HWA's Autobiography.
“rumours” regarding Garner Ted Armstrong's behavior
I was at a member's home and had to go to the bathroom. He gave me a letter from HWA I hadn't seen for reading material. In the letter, HWA tore GTA apart for all his infractions and escapades.
People believe what the want to believe, nothing changes. I still stand by my paraphrased advice given to Luke by Obi Wan -- what we accept as true is based on our point of view.
eh, the letter from Dorothy pretty much kills any argument for incest...the other replies can be considered ambiguous enough to use in support of your accusations, but with Dorothy added it's a nobrainer that the accusation is completely made up.
repeat a lie often enough and it becomes "truth".
if there is any proof of the accusation, bring it forth, or shut up.
(as with any conspiracy theory, there is never enough proof to convince those that believe said conspiracy theory is false)
HWAs own family have come out and said it was true, (several of them) and it is on tape, including HWAs own grandson!
Proof?? The incidents happened from 1933 to 1943. There were NONE of the ministry at that time, (the first AC grads were in the late 1940s). The church was tiny, with just 50 members at that time, spread out. There were no "videos" or pictures obviously.
Some people simply require that their heroes have no faults. Even with the GTA masseuse tape, there are still a few that follow the "Dead Ted", and claim that the whole thing was "an entrapment"! LOL!
The testimony of the family, is certainly more than enough witness. The Antion brothers have both confirmed the actuality of HWAs perversion.
Frankly, both Ted and HWA are both deceased, and are irrelevant. Same for Ellen G. White , or Meredith , and many others. THEY DO NOT MATTER , only Jesus Christ and the Scriptures matter. Are we to worship Stephen Mumphord of the Seventh Day Baptists, or Gilbert Cramner of the COG 7th Day, or A.N. Dugger ??
If one looks to ANY human intercessor besides Jesus, they are going to be sorely disillusioned. Especially if it is the likes of Thiel, Flurry, Pack, Weinland, Cox et al.
The last time I looked up HWA on Wikipedia (they sometimes change their contents), Dorothy never denied the incest accusation. If the accusations were false, one would expect frequent strong denials.
I agree with Tonto, with the old joke that we should respect the dead so get 'em while they're still alive!
We seem to be looking for faults in everyone, so we can tear down their statues, remove their names from things, ...
"entrapment" - after the masseuse incident, there appeared a letter from GTA (and maybe Shirley) mildly berating those who attack him for his "peccadilloes".
I can’t trust Thiel with anything he says. He lied to us in LCG and to Mr Meredith about so many things. He was soundly REJECTED by the church, all of its leaders and by it the members. For a man who claims to embody so much truth, all of his lies condemn him.
Know that Bob Thiel didn’t look that hard at the evidence. As the newspaper shows, the incest was part of the legal proceedings in the Armstrong’s divorce. It is part of a LEGAL document.
Louis Deckler, Mrs. Armstrong's lawyer, said the testimony would explain an "understanding" the couple reached about Armstrong's "prior incestuous conduct with his daughter for many years."
Tonto I listened to the family and they only participate in the 1978 hearsay.
Nck
Especially Debbie seems to have gone berserk after personal setbacks. Even as grandaddy provided for some level of education for all grandchildren since they were all poor.
Nck
Debbie and the rest of them ALL took his money for AC.
So the latter incest accusations are based on hearsay.
Nck
Full disclosure I have a personal beef with Debbie for defending the Russians while I had friends aboard MH17.
I think she is an unreliable "witness" . The others do onky confirm that they heard about the stories.
Nck
James
You are falsifying an already falsified local newspaper article.
Nck
Accusations of HWAs incest have appeared in many newspapers over the years. I doubt they would print such articles without checking with their legal department against possible lawsuits.
Incest is a crime against "the State".
Why would the attorney drop a criminal "case" committed vs the people for reasons of "stress", while pepple like Demjanjuk or elderly (war) criminals are persecuted?
There was no case really!
Nck
PCG should sue one of those newspapers since their college suffers reputation damage........... this would surface the affidavit and settle the question OR NOT, if it is just an order for Ramona to shut up with the lies, stop pestering the old man and take the jewels and 1.5 million dollars of tithe money.
Nck
I do not believe these accusations about HWA. I believe that HWA existed in a highly politicized environment that was inimical to the truth, truth which at times was favorable to HWA and at other times unfavorable. The truth always suffered whether for or against. There were people lined up behind each viewpoint. His son stirred the flames.
To some HWA was a superhero and to others he was a monster. I knew David Robinson and I am very skeptical of what he published based on some of my personal experiences. The same for other testimonials similar to Robinson's.
HWA was a heretic. That's sufficient. He was not a malevolent heretic - purposely spitting venom onto the souls of men. I don't think he even understood the heresy he was involved in - like most of his followers today. There is no need to make him into a pervert as well. Being a heretic is bad enough.
Gerald Flurry of the PCG, and David Pack of the RCG, expect their followers to somehow “prove” to themselves all the wild new heresies that they come up with. “Proving” things in the cults is not at all the same thing as really proving something in mathematics. All sorts of things get “proven” in the cults but then later get changed as the self-appointed leaders “prove” their latest new revelation.
NEO
You deem Robinson a liar or just bitter? Or to remain professional, an unreliable witness?
It seems his own son thought him a liar, why join lcg otherwise?
Nck
Nck
How can the PCG claim reputation damage since the incest accusation was common knowledge prior to them choosing to name their college after him?
To quote Marcia Clarke, "He did it." Yes he did. So did HerbZilla.
Some say Brian Davis is an idiot. Others say he's a fool. Seems like his detractors are not consistent. I guess that makes him innocent. Unless he's both an idiot and a fool.
Nobody who worked for HWA or an offshoot would ADMIT Herb did it. That would destroy the credibility of the man who ordained them or who ordained whoever ordained them. It would destroy the credibility of every minister who ever was in the WCG. So what a Herbite minister said in defense of Herb is what they have to say for their own self-preservation.
"He was not a malevolent heretic.."
So a cult leader who instituted a tyrannical "government is everything" form of government that robbed all its members of their natural rights, is not malevolent.
So it's no big deal to be treated like a child and have your life hijacked in the service of minister boot lickers. It's hard to know what to say. I'm very disappointed in you NEO.
Anonymous (5:07)
It was not my intent to go beyond the boundaries of theology. There was much wrong with the WCG that was a function of HWA's personal inclinations, for instance. There were other dimensions besides theology where we may find malevolence. In other words, I don't think he cooked up Sabbath observance under the NT to be harmful. I think he was just mistaken. Just an absorption from the Church of God Seventh Day. What I have to support this view is nothing but personal feelings and intuition.
The comment above about the newspaper article shows that the incest was a fact.
In a divorce, if one side asserted that something like this happened and the other side did not fight it, it is either true or the lawyer for the person who the behavior is attrubuted to is an idiot and his client is an idiot for not suing him for doing nothing about the "false" accusation in court.
Herbie could have also probably saved a bunch of money in alimony if it was not true, but was brought up in court by the other party. If not on alimony, he probably could have made a lot of it back by suing for slander after the fact. Yet, he did not.
Also, the book that was written was attacked by the wcg/armstrong, but not for libel. They simply sued to keep it from being published. They could not sue for libel because it was true and they couldn't win the case against publishing for the same reason.
hwa did very wrong in many ways in the wcg and he also did other very bad things. The information available is clear.
The idiots in the pulpits simply can't admit that they did not come into a perfect belief system and that everything that system taught is not true. They have to keep believing it or their self image, status, and very foundation is cracked and crumbles. This topic is only one area where they do that. There other areas, such as (false) prophecy, where this also applies.
Unfortunately, the regular joe memebers of such organizations do the same thing.
Interesting, I'll ask Robert E. Lee, Columbus, the Founding Fathers.
It's not even safe to name a street after a dead person anymore.
My main point was that the divorce papers might solve all. It seems too hard or expensive even for those who hate hwa to retrieve them. It would be a service to mankind for haters.
Nck
Nothing in the cults is proven EVEN IF it is 100 percent true. The definition of proof contains the understanding that the thesis or theory put forward holds under scrutiny. Nothing is ever peer reviewed or officially criticised by outsider experts on the topic. Therefore by definition nothing that ever came from flurry or pack has ever been proven.
It's just entertainment or verbal diareah depending on the beholder. "Interesting" to the cultie perhaps, but never proven.
Nck
HWA was as a public figure never in the position to defend himself.
From a media perspective it would have been a disaster to have it exposed outside of local markets, from a legal perspective he needed to prove that he suffered damage from the specific accusation.
https://www.alllaw.com/articles/nolo/civil-litigation/defamation-character-lawsuit-proving-harm.html
Unprovable, undefendable.
Nck
You forget hwa was a public figure and a PR natural talent. Defense would be adverse.
All the "allegations" in tbe book might be true, but not the alleged criminal offenses.
I dont know what hwa did ever wrong, besides believing in a religious system and managing without training.
Nck
Hearsay, there say, they day
I'd have to agree that there is lack of direct evidence, and the allegation cannot be proved or disproved. The only "witnesses" of whatever happened or didn't happen are dead.
From the various accounts, Loma was suspicious. The account of HWA going to LA with Dorothy and Loma demanding Richard goes with them may seem suspicious. So does the account that HWA allowed Richard to travel around LA by himself and HWA and Dorothy were left alone.
The closest thing to a "witness" may be a hotel manager - in one account, Dorothy was making so much noise while in a hotel room with HWA that the manager came to investigate. The account claimed that HWA said Dorothy was his "young, inexperienced bride". Suspicious, but still, nothing witnessed.
Can this person on "natural rights" please stop combining the enlightenment proposal and the bronze age magical leadership concept, they are incompatible although HWA did well combining the two in "Renaissance" Pasadena with a little help from Mendenhall, Eckbo and that British sculptor who had introduced the Beatles to Maharishi at the time he was sculpting the egrets and the swans.
Far out man, the Beatles could have been wcg, I know UB 40 almost was.
Nck
When I learned about the incest allegations against HWA I didn't want to believe it. But, then learning that HWA never denied it and never fought against such "lies," if lies they were were, in a court of law only supported the possibility, even probability of them being true. That no one in the family like GT or Dorothy ever published any statements strongly denying such either in support of HWA again adds weight to the allegations IMO. Even the apostle Peter charges that as Christians we should not unjustly suffer for sins like murder or theft (1 Pet. 4:15). So then if HWA wasn't guilty of incest then why didn't he protest his innocence to high heaven?! I know I definitely would have! IMO it's because he knew it was true and couldn't prove it false!
Hoss said: "People believe what the[y] want to believe, nothing changes. I still stand by my paraphrased advice given to Luke by Obi Wan -- what we accept as true is based on our point of view."
Like I told my niece the other day nothing's ever really proven except in the mind of the believer.
It would have been madness for HWA to publicly fight the allegations incest that was implied in his divorce case.
If it was true, clearly it would be stupid to dispute, but if completely untrue, any action brought publicly would leave a smear that the general public would remember.
With incest people would remember headlines, and if the person won the case or not it would stick in their memory, and no doubt with the thinking that there is 'no smoke without fire', whatever the outcome of such a case.
The proof of this statement is just read most of the postings on this thread!
But this would be true no matter who the person in the public eye was. Better to keep it low profile. That's the unfortunate facts of the society we live in.
Nck wrote:
Why would the attorney drop a criminal "case" committed vs the people for reasons of "stress", while pepple like Demjanjuk or elderly (war) criminals are persecuted?
Nck, if you will consult a good lawyer, you will learn that prosecutors may drop a case for many reasons, such as lack of evidence or lack of cooperation by the victim.
nck wrote: Why would the attorney drop a criminal "case" committed vs the people for reasons of "stress", while pepple like Demjanjuk or elderly (war) criminals are persecuted?
Because this was not a criminal case although the judge should have deferred it to the DA for investigation.
-------------
NCK, you seem to love defending hwa, something his family won't do. Instead they do the very opposite.
Nck worships HWA and always gives us his O.J. Simpson type defence of Herb on this blog.
"HWAs own family have come out and said it was true, (several of them) and it is on tape, including HWAs own grandson!"
then present the evidence.
and I'm sure the grandson has first hand knowledge, right? anything less is hearsay/rumor
it's kinda funny....the "proof" seems to be "everyone knows it's true".....kinda like everyone knew that the earth was flat.
3:58
You must be living in a cage, or not understand PR and media.
Prince Andrew destroyed his PR images by granting the BBC a public interview denying allegations of rape.
Nck
Painful Truth
I repeat.
They ALL took money and schooling paid for by grandpa.
Honest people would not have done that IF they had heard such rumors BEFORE 1978 (robinson book).
The family is just repeating 1978 hearsay or they are guilty of hypochrisy at the least.
Because I am a nice guy I go with the first.
Would you take money from grandaddy or ac education if it was widely known auntie was abused?
Nck
Evidence, please.
You cannot arrive at an incontrovertible conclusion by forcing indeterminate circumstances. Such as - HWA did not contest the allegations. Therefore, it must have been true. Or it appeared in a newspaper and there was no response from HWA or his lawyers - therefore, it must have been true. No, there are any number of plausible reasons that could explain why a response was not made.
Nothing substitutes for unimpeachable, direct evidence. The one-person testimony of politicized witnesses is not convincing no matter how embellished. The fact that all the significant testimony seems to be one-person testimony is suspicious in itself. Many who regard GTA to be a blackguard have no trouble accepting his one-person testimony in this case.
I can appreciate the emotionalism that this case engenders but this fervor does not obviate the need that simple legal requirements be met.
Give it a rest.
The DA might have chosen not to prosecute hwa for his incest because he regarded him a positive influence on society. The utilitarian greatest good for the greatest number thingy.
5:51
Hence the rethorical questions I've defended here for years. You must be new here.
In that case welcome.
Nck
6:47
I will not contest your assumption.
It started out differently though.
I defended the necessary burden of evidence for a criminal case.
I defended the perpetual influence of tithe money given until 1986.
At first I had no use for hwa personally.
Nck
Would you take money from grandaddy or ac education if it was widely known auntie was abused?
Nck
July 31, 2020 at 7:10 AM
-----------------------------------------
No. Its called ethics. The only thing I will die with is my integrity.
NEO and Nck are trying to impose a criminal trials "beyond a reasonable doubt" level of proof. This is defined as "proof that is close to absolute certainty." Absolute certainty is that level found in the laws of physics and chemistry.
In every day life, decisions have to be made, and this level of proof is not practical since people often only have limited information.
I doubt that NEO and Nck use this level of proof in their personal lives.
"Give it a rest." No one likes to be patronised!
PS, the body of evidence says HWA did it.
"I doubt that NEO and Nck use this level of proof in their personal lives."
My friend, the level of accusation cannot be compared to "everyday decisions."
I stated why I do not accept the cousins statements as convincing and neo had reasons to suspect robinson. I only know that robinsons son was not convinced his father was right since he continued in cog circles.
I am willing to accept as legal proof that what is written in the divorce papers with Ramona.
Although theres a huge chance it just says. "Take 1.5 million and the jewels and shut up about the hearsay the dirty lawyer is pressuring you on because hwa is a public figure."
Nck
If (assuming the story was true) the hotel manager who heard Dorothy had called the police we might not be here discussing this today.
Wasn't there a report that Dorothy's husband Vern Mattson confronted HWA? If that was true, why did HWA fire him?
Nck
You might have escaped the "natural rights" abuses based on time and chance, such as your age and minister at the time. But many did not. The COViD-19 lockdown means that everyone, including yourself are now experiencing such restrictions. Do you still think it no big deal?
BTW, natural rights includes freedom of thought. Herb members were persecuted by their ministers for exercising this right.
Anonymous (9:17) wrote: "the body of evidence says HWA did it."
Without a doubt it does. It is just that the body of evidence is not that credible. A letter, an overheard conversation, a circumstance that seems telling. Are you going to choose to believe Mark? Are you going to choose to believe Dickie? They likely have two different stories.
Conspiracy Theories are a dime a dozen. All of them seem to be created in such a way as to at least suggest credibility. I don't think John Kennedy Jr. is still alive and is out there helping Trump battle the Deep State and neither do I believe that HWA was incestuous - both have similar evidentary underpinnings.
10:51
I'm with you on the natural rights. I passed that exam.
I said its an enlightenment concept I do not necessarily expect religious figures to uphold. Thats what I said kinda.
Nck
I believe it to be true. At the very least you must question why basically no one in his family supports him. I would certainly deny it for a sibling or parent if it was untrue and brought up to me.
You have to deny something like that. There are more complicated issues that it may work better to simply ignore such as, "you lied about the reasons for becoming hierarchical."
That requires more effort than simply denying the incest with: "that is disgusting! I would never do such a thing." Denying such a sin doesn't go into more complicated motivations as may the reasons for changing your stance on hierarchy...that would open up additional issues and beliefs.
But, denying a major sin does not open up complicated issues. There are no other issues really. Yes or no. The only other issues that may open up would still be related to the sin (was it not quite as bad as claimed, but still awful?). The only reason to not deny it is because you dare not. Better to hope the old saw of "I won't honor that question with a response" somehow suffices.
He did not have a loving family apparently. That says something.
The Antions have never denied it, that says something. GTA had issues that his father allowed, that says something. Dorothy never strongly denied it nor supported her father. That says something. Etc. Etc.
Many things exist to support the belief. If it was a scientific theory (which is actually powerful, not a guess as some incorrectly use the term), it would fit the whole of the facts regarding his family life, GTA, his lack of denial, his divorce proceedings, the Lochner tapes, the Kessler letter, the Robinson book, the grand children claims, his supposed black book, his drinking, Dorothy's home being gifted (did she have to sign a letter for some financial benefit?), Mattson threatening hwa, etc.
If it did not happen, these are a lot of strange occurences involving a lot of different people. If this occurred anywhere else but in a cultish or cultish-like organization some of the above individuals would not weigh the importance of HWA's reputation for the sake of "the Church" and what truth would do to the faith of COG members.
I find few compelling arguments that can overcome this umbrella of circumstantial evidence. No, it is not beyond a reasonable doubt, but that his family did/will not support him is revealing in itself. And, if they had ever been placed on the witness stand I think it would have been very ugly for HWA.
There's the saying that just because someone is found innocent in a court of law, it doesn't mean that they didn't commit the crime. So 'legal proof' or it's absence isn't the ultimate arbiter of truth.
10:51
It is "self evident" (natural law) that "everyone" should participate in the Covid Lockdown.
Are you implying to be like dr Mengele, to decide that risk groups should die, (older infected by asymptomatic younger)?
If all IC units are full because the old and infirm filled them up, will you be the standard to who will live, who will have a respirator or who will die?
There might be better ways than lockdown and I'm willing to discuss those to prevent superspreading events, But your beef seems to be with "everyone" whilst according to natursl law measures should include everyone.
Nck
3:05
What is?
Someones word of honor?
Dueling?
Weighing witches, if found too light burn them, they must be able to fly a broom.
Nck
Oh poor Jim and "his trail of evidence".
There are no Lochner tapes, Kessler just cited Robinson etc etc etc
If indeed scientific standards would be applied, martians are indeed scavenging area 51, its on tape, just released by the Pentagon, whats to deny, what other proof do you need, it's so clear, extraterrestials are here.
Or do you think the Pentagon releasing fake videos?
Nck
..... a leader with a vehement countenance, and saying statements which appear to be the truth but are not, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power, and he shall corrupt to an extraordinary degree, and shall prosper, and do his thing, and shall corrupt numerous church people. And through his policy also he shall cause deceit and fraud to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and during a time of security and prosperity shall corrupt many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. Daniel 8:23-25, a paraphrase, after checking meanings of Hebrew words. See also verse 12.
Nck
July 31, 2020 at 4:14 PM
You think mocking someone helps your case, you weak little man.
Nck
People are putting out effort to communicate in a clear scientific manner while you keep invalidating their posts using mostly obfuscation. Obfuscation keeps you out of legal trouble, but it makes for lousy debating.
Blogger nck said...
You must be living in a cage, or not understand PR and media.
Prince Andrew destroyed his PR images by granting the BBC a public interview denying allegations of rape.
Nck
July 31, 2020 at 7:05 AM
*****
So Nck do you believe Prince Andrew is innocent or guilty of having sex with Virginia Roberts Giuffre?
NCK
"They ALL took money and schooling paid for by grandpa.
Honest people would not have done that IF they had heard such rumors BEFORE 1978 (robinson book).
The family is just repeating 1978 hearsay or they are guilty of hypochrisy at the least.
Because I am a nice guy I go with the first.
Would you take money from grandaddy or ac education if it was widely known auntie was abused?"
It happens all the time! I was sexually abused by my Father from 1966 to 1970. My Mother was "legally" separated through court based on that fact. They reconciled and had a fifth child, were accepted by relatives and in-laws, and he was respectfully buried by my siblings 3 weeks ago.
I don't know what HWA did but I do know that people do what suits their self interest first. Morals and even love for a child can be forgotten if the rewards are sufficient. It is obvious that HWA's family lived off him and it appears they did not earn their keep. It would not be in their interest to expose him.
I "believe" Andrew had sex with girls at Epsteins houses.
What I do not know if he knew he was guilty of a crime.
I do not believe many of the adult actresses going into a film directors hotel room being as "innocent" as they claim to be. Although many film directors and producers and princes might be predators too.
French actresses protested the american actresses claims, I guess they understand powerplay better without acting like whores for money.
Nck
6:35
I am sorry for you. I am not discussing your case. Thank you for your contribution. I am sorry if I hurt you on this topic where I try and stick to the discussing the legalities, despite or perhaps because if the incessant lying, wrong portrayal of the facts and the witnessing as in "dear jury the black man did it,...... I think....... at least it was dark.
Nck
Yeah right Opinionated.
I have tapes on you, or at least I heard about tapes, or maybe not, oh just let the lynching start and have lunch at the country club.
Nck
I'm not obfuscating.
My case is that EVERYONE is repating the same rumor, originating in 1974.
Even the family.
Nck
Well if anything came from this endless discussion, it is that nck is definitely a HWA cheerleader. How disgusting is that?
Here is a legal proceeding that mentions an agreement between 2 party's in a divorce, that acknowledges the crime of incest within it. If that is not enough then you are another bob thiel type of individual. Like I said, disgusting.
Nck,
Disappointed with your silly name calling.
You make up all these HWA as super agent/CIA/FBI/Europe/Russia/China absurdity claims; you believe Prince Andrew had sex with underage girls but didn’t know it; you believe these actresses are not as innocent as they claim when meeting directors — then you cite some french actresses as if that is proof. Somehow trying to sound like the voice of reason while criticizing those that believe a far far stronger array of evidence than the nonsense you habitually claim.
Regarding hwa you display a shocking naïveté towards how people regard money and power and favors...when they are in a position without any of these. You somehow believe (with what proof you don’t say) that a teen is going to refuse all of those huge Armstrong family benefits lest later some nck-type In a make believe legal framework discount everything you say because you didn’t refuse all these benefits and privileges.
Then you think you’ve discredited the Armstrong incest belief by just saying so while discounting the stronger evidence and merely claiming Kessler just said what robinson said (not true) and there are no lochner tapes(maybe not now) but i also knew lochner and don’t believe he would fabricate it. But somehow you discredit Debbie Armstrong’s veracity based merely on her teenage stance on another Russia issue, such a tangled Web you weave!
Anyway, Perhaps I should not have even responded to your comments as I know you hold hwa in some super agent position and anything said against him sets off your DHS (defend herbert syndrome). But, then again you are putting yourself in the defender of hwa position and using that position to discredit others so I’m sure with all your legal training you might expect some criticism yourself.
There is one thing I have learned from NCK’s posts and that he is just like Thiel. All bluster and no substance as he tries to come across as some intellectual know it all. Truth and rational thinking seems to evade him as he creates myths about HWA.
No Jim.
Its ok!
I respect your opinion.
Nck
Painful truth.
There is a NEWSPAPER article with a tough negotiator speaking, knowing a religious leader is not going to defend himself publicly.
Great play and negotiating through the press. EXACTLY the game Rader played during the receivership..... play the press.
Nck
5:26
No one ever mentioned one myth I created, although I read your vague accusation with interest. Again nothing in your protestation I need to source.
I have had sources every time I told a tale here, NO ONE EVER ASKED SPECIFICALLY only vague protestations.
nck
BTW Jim.
I protested Debbies testimony not on teenage grounds but my posting did not make it here.
In recent contact she showed to be unreliable through her defense of Russian crimes that I care about being exposed on the proper forums.
Painful truth and I share the sentiment of honor and integrity.
EITHER DEBBIE LACKS BOTH or she just follows the lynching crowd and knew nothing about what she claimed a couple of years ago.
I defended her that I do not believe she lacks personal integrity and therefore is confused.
Anyone accepting money from grandad knowing that he abused auntie after the age of 18 is TOTAL TRASH in my opinion. So I believe the sweet girl made it up out of personal frustration.
Nck
Btw Jim. I looked for the "name calling" but I couldnt find it.
Sorry if I did in the heat of silly arguments you put forward.
Are you all right?
Nck
Until recently Jack worked with Stan Raders son.
It beats me why he would not find "incest" the worst of things plagueing the organization he worked for.
I'd say it would be far worse than anything to do with money. Do we see Kesslers flawed character reflected in the letter, minoring in the majors?
Nck
Thiel is nck. I'm sure of it.
Marcus
I wouldn't be surprised if PCG added denial of HWA's incest as a requirement for baptism.
What would surprise me is there is anyone in the world who would still want to join PCG.
Blogger nck said...
I "believe" Andrew had sex with girls at Epsteins houses.
What I do not know if he knew he was guilty of a crime.
...
Nck
July 31, 2020 at 10:41 PM
*****
Well, then if you believe the allegations against Prince Andrew are true then why do you reject the allegations against HWA?!
At least Prince Andrew has spoken out vehemently against the allegations put forward by Giuffre despite the unintended damage to his reputation from his televised interview. So I’d be willing to concede his innocence if nothing more definite comes to light.
But, HWA never did! Perhaps he thought following the royal motto, “Never complain. Never explain” would shield him. However, the ancient legal maxim “silence connotes consent” applies here and only adds weight to the veracity of the allegations for me. Like I said, if I was in such a situation I'd definitely not stand by and let someone falsely accuse me of a crime I was innocent of without even a whimper from me.
Hi Marcus, just the other day someone asserted I was BB.
I'll be looking forward to an article by your creation on a topic you care about.
Let's see who I will be then in the comment section. Your ex wife maybe?
Nck
I'm convinced. Nck is Thiel!
Nck is not Thiel.
Nck is ex AC or ex WCG elite or thereabouts.
Nck loves to blag.
Nck has most probably genius intelligence.
But nck is not to be trusted.
Don't be like nck.
What I personally KNOW FOR SURE is that there were some dirty old men and filthy old women in the PCG in the local area and that ALL the PCG leaders from the entire area were bad actors. There was nothing but evil behavior continually and nothing but lies to cover it up.
Hi 6:14
I said Andrew was a fool to do the interview!!! His communication director was 4 weeks in office.
Ok why not believe Andrew.
The name Randy Andy to many is new in the gossip and even mainstream news. However this nickname was coined in the eighties after his taste for porn actress koo stark and many other raunchie types like his former wife. (who by now I do respect for the way she overcame adversity) but was known as a Sloane Ranger.
Anyway Andy had a lifelong reputation for taste for trashy ladies. So unless you surmise that fundamentalist conservative american preachers have a taste and reputation for their daughters, you must understand that the circumstantial speaks more against Andy than HWA.
Anyway.
I really do not know if Andy understood the girls were underage for American standards and they should put the videos online for us to judge how much unconsensual doings were undertaken.
Was HWA sweating profusely during the affidavit, were his eyes moving to the right when thinking of answers, was he evasive, was he at a pizza parlor in woking during the alleged crimes??
There's your answer my friend.
Nck
5:93 To berate you on the spelling mistake "to blog" would indeed be blagging. :-)
Thank you all for using words like, blag or obfuscating...... I mean, the level rises dramatically from copycatting!
Nck
6:14
If you ever were in that exact situation, you would have "your people", take care of it, I know, really.
Nck
I dont believe in Saint NCK !
Listen NCK & Non-eliptic, I am not just chunking mud against the wall. You need to base your faith on Christ & not on a HWA. I grew up in Worldwide and unfortunately most all of it is true. My father always liked Ted and followed him most of his life and I met & liked Ted also. He had faults but he had charisma that HWA was jealous of. I remember someone confronted Ted about books that came about reported the sins of himself and his father. He commented, that " there isn't really anything beneficial from reading those books, but that being said most of all that was written in them was true."
Connie dont blow my cover!
Nck
Of course all that is written about Ted is true (perhaps not the exact number of 200 that's impossible for ac to have survived, I think 10 at most, that could be kept silent. That massage thing on Geraldo was a disgrace. I can see people pull the "David" defense on Ted though. I do not see ANY possible religious defense for hwa if the allegations were true.
Nck
I'm pretty sure that the generation before gta would not have been the first to cast a stone at gta, despite the biblical qualifications for a minister. After all by the age of 19 many of them or their brothers had killed or seen european lassies along the arduous road. Thats the best I can do for Ted.
Nck
Look most of the "scientific arguing" here goes along the line of:
"A man walks into a building and shouts.........Hellooooooo, I'll have a fish and chips please. A person walks up to him and beckons, please sir, this is a library.
The man replies.........Oops I'm sorry, (then whispers) i'll have a fish and chips please........"
nck
Nck, err, are you sober yet?
9:08 Bear with me. 10 more days and I'll be getting back on the track, mountaineering amongst about 300, 3k's for, "the big picture".
Nck
I'm fine, Nck. In rereading your response to me it does not seem to contain an additional adjective I thought I had read earlier.
I can accept someone not believing HWA having an incestuous relationship, but to believe the evidence points more in his favor to such a degree that you mock those that believe it definitely leans against him, seems to me, is foolish.
Those who support much of what the WCG taught, such as the Antions, who believe the incestuous relationship existed are presumably standing against their interests. A family that does not support HWA points to at least other issues.
Someone like Debbie could very easily as a teen have been deceived with the David defense. If people can accept the laundry list of doctrines that point to how God chooses whomever He wants despite their flaws, even the incest could be pushed to the side if not swept away. But, when that doctrinal glacier starts melting and chunks begin to fall off, you start realizing "what the heck was I thinking?" "How could I believe this or look over that?" It was all carefully constructed on the cornerstone of human hierarchy and appointment. David, Nebuchadnezzar, King Manasseh -- they were taught quite a lot to counter the HWA and GTA reputations and whispers.
You have to recognize there is a difference in how people respond in a normal organization and how they respond while in a cult. I think you know this. Even you seem to be surprised at some of the things you believed and accepted before...well, I really don't know what your beliefs are now, but I suspect they are different than they were in 1985.
Jim
Thank you very much for your thoughtful words regarding the grandchildren and the wider point about cult behavior or adaptation.
I may have mocked people, but I have tried to adress the argumentation put forward. That is not the same.
I do not care about what people believe in a criminal implication. After all, the entire Manson family serves time don't they. The facts remain, or in this case can be disputed.
As I said before, what to think of a Kessler letter who casually adresses a major crime and religious transgression (incest) and then continues blabbering on watches and money....... to make a point about ethics?
What I believed in the past!
Yes, as a kid I remember filling in the SEP aplication form and tick the boxes about race.
Today I would not fill those boxes.
When our pastor asked our local youth if everyone had enjoyed SEP he clearly noticed that I did not raise my hand.
Today at an advanced age SEP stands amongst the best experiences of my life, make no mistake. However when my mom enquired why I didnt raise my hand when a director, only accountable to hwa, asked about camp I, as a 13 year old kid, answered that I had studied races in my science magazine and thought the dancing segregationist practices at camp were objectionable. I was 13 at the time, just to give you a sense of what a long history I have in being annoying when it concerns the unjust labelling of persons.
On this topic I'm only using 30 percent of my capacity, actually I'm nearly dormant. Because in the end we all share many things. In real life people answer to us when they do not adhere to just legal procedure. I do not care if we take Russia to Court, defend Lybia in the Lockerby trial or have to hunt Serbian dogs until they pay for their crimes. I'm just reminding friends here that there are established principles for putting a man on trial. I try and do that in a playful way. You have no idea how boring serious replies would be.
Nck
Blogger nck said...
Hi 6:14
I said Andrew was a fool to do the interview!!! His communication director was 4 weeks in office.
Ok why not believe Andrew.
The name Randy Andy to many is new in the gossip and even mainstream news. However this nickname was coined in the eighties after his taste for porn actress koo stark and many other raunchie types like his former wife. (who by now I do respect for the way she overcame adversity) but was known as a Sloane Ranger.
Anyway Andy had a lifelong reputation for taste for trashy ladies. So unless you surmise that fundamentalist conservative american preachers have a taste and reputation for their daughters, you must understand that the circumstantial speaks more against Andy than HWA.
Anyway.
I really do not know if Andy understood the girls were underage for American standards and they should put the videos online for us to judge how much unconsensual doings were undertaken.
Was HWA sweating profusely during the affidavit, were his eyes moving to the right when thinking of answers, was he evasive, was he at a pizza parlor in woking during the alleged crimes??
There's your answer my friend.
Nck
August 2, 2020 at 9:42 AM
*****
Blogger nck said...
6:14
If you ever were in that exact situation, you would have "your people", take care of it, I know, really.
Nck
August 2, 2020 at 9:49 AM
*****
Personally I don't know if Prince Andrew is innocent or guilty of having sex with Giuffre. But, as I already noted, I'd be willing to concede his innocence primarily because of two reasons. 1) He has come out strongly against the allegations as false and maintained his innocence even at great cost to his reputation. And 2) at present it's only her word against his and there is nothing more definite against him not unlike her allegations against Alan Dershowitz.
I believe Prince Andrew's approval for a televised interview reflected a gross naivety on his part and it was an unwise move when it would've been substantially in his favor to simply release a statement denying the allegations. My main reason for this is when you're on the defensive the media can act like law enforcement or a polygraph examiner. Whatever questions they ask of you--and be assured your entire life will be open to scrutiny--it is your response and reaction as perceived by them that will be on trial not whether you're telling the truth or not. That's why IMHO you should always have a lawyer present when questioned by police and never agree to a lie detector!
And regarding HWA and the alleged incestuous relationship between him and his daughter Dorothy. Again I don't know definitively if he is innocent or guilty, but, for me, from what I know of the man behind the myth the circumstantial evidence supports the allegations. And more importantly, for me, the fact that HWA never publicly denied the allegations neither in spoken communication nor in written communication; and neither did his daughter nor anyone else close to him that I know of come out in his defense gives weight to the allegations.
And finally, no you don't know me nck, but I can tell you in all honesty if I were in such a situation as HWA found himself with respect to the allegations of incest and was innocent of all charges against me I definitely would not stand by and remain silent. For to be silent is to be complicit.
"And finally, no you don't know me nck, but I can tell you in all honesty if I were in such a situation as HWA found himself with respect to the allegations of incest and was innocent of all charges against me I definitely would not stand by and remain silent. For to be silent is to be complicit."
Just to show how misconstrued your "legal thinking" thinking is!!!!!!!
A careful reading of my words shows that I said:
I you ever were in that EXACT situation, meaning, you'd be a "high profile prince or religious leader", you would stand by and remain silent on the advice of "your people."
I did not claim to know YOU. I did claim to know media advise to high profile wrongfully accused high profile persons.
What is against prince Andrew is for instance that he does not frequently travel to the USA and tell the magistrates in person that they are conducting shitty investigations. Of course not, they have all the videos.
nck
August 11:37
Frankly the only reason you believe the allegations are because you CHOOSE to ignore the opinions against it.
By your own admission
"nor anyone else close to him that I know of come out in his defense"
You are igoring MANY statements by people EXTREMELY close to him, people who for instance actually witnessed the confrontation between GTA and HWA UNLIKE ROBINSON who does not have ANY information first hand and might not even have obtained it second hand!!!!!
You ignore to many closer than family REAL WITNESSES to be taken seriously anymore (and I am not for fun purposes not even using formal legal logic as I stated), besides I reached my goal of a hundred posts.
nck
No I meant blag not blog. Blagging readers along...
It's already gone ages ago.
Nck is a HWA worshipper who consistently ignores reason and reality when it comes to HWAs incest, failed 1975 prediction, or any major short coming. I observed this phenomenon in church services. Some would express affection toward the morally challenged. It was like a man courting a woman.
"failed 1975 predictions"
Are you NUTS.
As we speak, today hundreds of millions of people are discussing "mark of the beast", cryptocurrency, the nwo, pandemics, etc
I am not saying anyone of them is right. I only OBSERVE that HWA was more right than ever about "events"..........in a secular way.
Nck
Nck
Over 100 of Herbs prophesy predictions were wrong. He misled a whole generation, or is it two, about the timing of prophetic events, resulting in permanent damage to many peoples lives. And I don't believe he cared a crap. As long as his predictions terrorized his members into submission and gave him financial support, he persisted.
It depends how you look at the "prophecies".
True, the Abesinian Italian war doesnt make many a headline today. But just yesterday cnn speculated about the break up of the "united" kingdom.
It is my opinion he believed what he believed. Damage is done by believers, like ALL the WWI general, even the greatest political reformer of all, Napoleon Bonaparte, in the end had to many people killed.
Many entrepeneurs changing lives make casualties. Who really liked Rockefellar when he imposed a monopolizing system?
HWA, was wrong about the Beatles. So one played it at home.
The Church caused havoc through "(re) marriage" policies, that were no different from the Roman Catholic current official doctrine on marriage or the Church of England that caused an Emperor to abdicate because of Wallis and princess Margaret to break with her first love, because he was divorced.
So yes we could have a beer over "damaged lives" or "draconian" untruthful interpretations from ancient books.
However, you didnt know that about princess Margareth, did you?
So we have hardly anything to discuss about my opinions on the live and times of hwa the preacherman, because you have chosen your frame and I have mine.
Nck
Did you recently go out and protest slavery in the chocolate business, or did you just yesterday got yourself a Hershey bar?
My point, what do you actually do NOW, to live up to your high standards of saving people from submission? Buy a cell phone, bomb 300.000 Iraqis to dust?
Shit happens, when people are disengaged OR too engaged to forget about themselves. Belief encourages both. Its what we humans do. It propels us it destroys us. Perhaps the Hindu were on to something with that Shiva figure.
People mislead themselves, even if they read the goodbook state "no one knows the time", people prefer to interpret a 1975 book to speak what they believe it says.
I have only explained here why people would do that. People here have narrowly interpreted that of being a fan.
I just never state that I wished Margareth had married her first love. Then you call me a hwa adept because SHE acted upon what HWA, like many others preached. That is not my problem since I am not of Margareths generation, but one sympathizes.
Nck
"In my opinion, he believed what he believed."
HWA could not have taught over 100 failed prophesy predictions as fact, and till "believed what he believed." Neither could he have taught over 40 years "in the name of Christ, we only have 3 to 5 years short yeas left," and still believed what he believed. His fruits tells any reasonable person that he was a habitual liar who believed that the end justifies the means,
A disgusting immoral man that you obviously identify with.
About the 1972-1975 period he said in 1980, "we were overzealous" in print, after that another 50.000 people joined the church.
You think madman Reagan had something to do with that?
Think deeply!!!
Nck
"we were over zealous"
Not "I was over zealous, but we were overzealous." That is, socialize the mistakes and privatize the good choices. Don't take personal responsibility, but dump the blame on others.
Members put off medical treatment, education, finding a mate, etc because of Herbs 1975 prediction, but the victims are to blame.
Again a despicable man and you dishonor yourself by white washing him.
Well that was 3,5 more years to make an informed decision on a mate then.
nck
Look my friend,
Why are people calling on Fauci to be imprisoned for denouncing hydrochlorine while thousands of research institutions are looking an answer to fight Covid. Don't ya think the other thousand did their research on hydro.
Indeed it seems. People are stupid. People are irresponsible. People are to be blamed for stupidity. And yet like to find ONE person to blame for their misery IN LINE with their simplicity.
nck
Ugh. "we were overzealous"-- that truly is terrible and says so very much. Somehow spreading the blame.
Who is the "we"? Is it some committee of prophets (haha, that would have been a first)?
Is it all the WCG members pushing for these overzealous prophecies (à la Aaron being forced into making the golden calf)?
Despicable.
I think the revitalized U.S. under Reagan might have created an optimism that allowed people to accept the words of a formerly discredited wanna be prophet/committee prophet by brushing away 1972-75 as another artifact of the 1970's malaise.
Haha Jim
Even the KGB knew that Reagan was a religious man who openly declared his belief in Armageddon after he dramatically increased spending on the military and placement if nuclear weapons on the Soviet doorstep.
Optimism? Its morning again in America. The entire world feared this escatologist president would indeed push the nuclear button as hus christ had predicted.
The KGB knew the American threat of Mutual Assured Destruction was not a vain thread.
HWA went around SHOUTING at elites that no flesh would be spared, unless, the unseen hand, which everone with a bit of education understands to be, the capitalist free trade system, would be accepted.
Optimism. It was a time of dread and fear as the Cold War drew to a conclusion. Despite what the A team, Dallas, Dynasty and Top Gun projected about the merits of the American dream in a massive propaganda strike.
Nck
Haha nck. Yes mutually assured destruction was a thing, and it worked in breaking the ussr hegemony.
Jimmy carter himself described the malaise he exacerbated. Reagan brought with him Charlie Daniels and “In America”, Lee Greenwood and “God bless the USA”.
Both of these entertainers were said to have been disgusted by the Dark message of Herbert Armstrong. They both worked with margaret thatchers government and Pope John Paul to create messaging and music that would inspire the US citizenry so that the Reagan, Thatcher, Pope JP, and Poland’s Lech Walesa could work to win the Cold War. Charlie Daniels and Walesa met regularly over drinks and Walesa encouraged Daniels in writing songs consistent with Solidarity and inspiring to polish citizens. Walesa was inspired by the American founding and freedom stating that Daniels was polands Lafayette.
It was all about undermining the USSR. Lee Greenwood had been an amateur gymnast and was in contact with Bela Karoli during his defection from Romania. Karoli lived in one of Greenwood’s Oklahoma houses during his asylum.
The renewed American buoyancy and economy was part of the plan to crumble communism.
Ah Jim.
Now you're talking. I'm sitting straight now. I found a friend here in the know on the regular cia briefings to our friend Karol Wojtila.
I remember it well as if it was yesterday, all of europe in turmoil about the short range missiles, millions taking to the streets as the cia tried to prevent karol to speak out against placement as the moral authority and arbiter of peace and morality on earth. Guess what, Rome remained silent, not lending its voice to "the people" as the unholy alliance transferred funds into Poland.
I was there with a hammer to tear the Wall down, but it was special concrete, in support of the folk in Leipzig. 2 East German chicks in a trabant took us back to the friedrichstrasse trainstation just before our visa would expire. I gave them all our east german marks, but they told us to stick it in our behinds......... cant recall meeting prouder girls, not concerned with money, just our well being.
In the nick if time if you would allow me the pun.
When I chopped the Wall, kgb security officer Putin was packing his families bags, to accept a low key job at the St Petersburg msyor ls office. I tried to get some trade done but they wanted a oayment of 75000 dollars to get the ship docked.
In the evenings Debbie Armstrong and crew would get the World Tomorrow and YA's to broadcast over the Soviet Union.
From the couch I saw the Soviet flag lowered from the Kremlin and the blue, white red raised.
Salutations.
Nck
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