Tuesday, April 12, 2011

Born Right the First Time?





Born Right the First Time?


Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorThe purpose of most religion is to make us "better" than we currently are. The Biblical premise is that all human beings are fatally flawed, not good enough and in need of vast improvements and control of their "human nature." Without this ongoing overcoming of the evil self, growing towards a better kind of person and change, one runs the risk of being so not good enough that they will spend eternity, for their inability to change over a rather short lifetime, in a punishing hell. Scripture goes out of its way to remind us all that our fundamental human qualities are deceit, wickedness, jealousy, anger, lust and greed. I find that personally to be one of the most unhelpful and controlling lies ever foisted upon human beings by religion. Of course that is how we can act, but that is not who we are by any real means when given the freedom to be authentic and feel safe in being so.


We are called "worms" and less than nothing in this great book of encouragement. Even the early leaders, prophets and apostle types knew that they had to degrade themselves as less than human in order to show they understood they were not worth anything as an unregenerate human being. Only when one realized they were a piece of poop, could they lead the people who were really poopy people. If you could not utter the words, "I am not worthy," you would never be a Bible CEO. The Apostle Paul noted that he was "the least of the Apostles" and that "the things that I don't want to do, I do and the things I should, I don't." He made his problems everyone's. He concluded he was simply a wretched human being, and so should everyone else. He reminded others that they were blind, miserable, poor and naked of heart and spirit. He even said he had to beat himself into submission, lest after preaching to others, he should flub up himself and be a castaway. Seems he didn't have the confidence "in the blood," to make up the differences in what he was and what he felt he needed to be.



Jesus is also said to have said that humans are to become "perfect, even (in the same way) as your Father in heaven is perfect." No challenge there to be better than one is at any one moment! Of course this is not possible and it is not possible or plausible in any "now I'm converted and full of the Holy Spirit" way. You have never met any Christian who has reached this goal in life. I have met some who act like they have and I have met some who agonize of not being able, but I have never met one that did in fact, whatever that means. Actually they would be one freaky human being I would think.



How did we get this way? Well, of course it was due to the "fall" where Adam and Eve, our really true and actual first human parents, created by God out of mud and ribs, flubbed up and ate the forbidden fruit. We have all been blamed for this event and must spend our lives coming under a blood sacrifice of a more perfect human/god being and then continuing the struggle to be "better" until we die. Its then we find out we understood being bad enough to be good enough to live forever. Redemption of humans by blood sacrifice and execution have always been the preferred solution to the depravity of man. Membership in the club usually cost ten or more percent of your material income and membership in the one true of many churches. I am not being disrespectful to the life and teachings of Jesus but few understand how that has been woven into a tale that Jesus himself would have cringed at.



I remember as a teen when it was "time you were baptised" being told I was all these miserable things and in need of deep and heartfelt repentance and, of course, a savior. The minister took me through all the Ten Commandments and asked me if I understood that I had broken EVERY ONE of them all my short life and thus, was condemned to death. I was a mere 18 year old, nice kid, good home, pretty compliant, a bit guilt and shame ridden by upbringing, but not a really big nasty sinner on drugs with three illegitimate kids. And yet, here I sat being convinced I worshiped other gods, (money, success, human hopes and dreams), somehow always took God's name in vain, (mom and dad would have washed my mouth out with soap...I only learned to cuss and such after being in the ministry) and worshiped on the wrong day of the week along with having to repent of keeping the wrong Holy Days all my short life.



I was in some deep evil way a killer, adulterer, thief, liar and coveter of all men's goods and women. When I said I hadn't really killed anyone, I was told that I hated and that's the same thing. I admitted I had not had sex with anyone to that point, but my lust covered that one too. I wanted to say, "well no, I really hadn't done that either", but that would have been ill advised if I ever wanted to get baptized and have a future with the group. He told me to come back another day and more deeply repent of my nasty, evil and wicked 18 year old self. Of course I did in time and joined the "you still aren't good enough" club for the next three decades as a pastor who then passed the good news of human depravity on to thousands and reminding them that while they might think they are nice people, they are under the eternal death penalty those stinkers Adam and Eve brought upon us all no matter. However, I did a bit of growing myself and concluded the story of my guilt by association to Adam and Eve wasn't literally true. Human beings have evolved for the most part as good science has noted. I've had my own genome mapped back 60,000 years to all our African origins. I don't believe that it would be a very fair thing for humans to pay a literal and eternal death penalty based on a mythical and not literally true story.



Have you ever considered the fact that you and I may have been born right the first time? What if the most simple and spiritual goal a human being has is to become your own genuine, authentic and self? What if our purpose in life is neither to jump through the hoops set out by others, who think they know, nor to struggle and strive to improve yourself dramatically over what you are? People don't change much over a life time no matter what their religious affiliations, and while it's an improvement to stop killing one's self with sugar, caffeine, alcohol and nicotine along with other assorted body killing habits, it's ok to just be yourself.



Is it easy to be yourself? No, not in our culture and certainly not in many others where not being a mere cog in the tribal wheel can get you killed in really bad ways. One of life's simple truths that most humans have long since forgotten or never knew is that all of us are one and the same and all smaller parts of the one single thing. I don't pretend to know what that is, but let's just say we are all one in the same conscious awareness stuck in a limited five sensed carbon based wet suit for now. As Mike Adams said in a recent article on The discovery of DNA variability, holographic blueprints and the symphony of life...



"We are, in fact, an expression of the very phenomena we are attempting to understand, and if we read the poetry of DNA correctly, we will realize that life itself is not about the accumulation of wealth, or stuff, or power over others, but rather the discovery of self. And "self" does not exist in isolation. We are, in every way imaginable, intertwined. We are all made of the same stuff, wrought from the same patterns of nature, and in fact, formulated from the same musical notes played out in five billion unique but compatible tunes. With this discovery, Western science has concluded we are all more different from each other than previously thought, but I believe it is evidence that we are all just unique verses of the same universal poem."


That's a far cry from humans being merely wretched, miserable, poor blind and naked worms that need major rehab at the hands of prophets, priests and pastors. Saying we are born right the first time and not in need of being born again or reborn goes against the meme, which is the mind virus we all got taught as kids. Our parents had it taught to them and their parents before that. It is the idea that we are all flawed a birth by a non-event in the lives of our first not literally so parents Adam and Eve. It's the idea that even if you are a pretty ok person, you are filled with vanity, jealousy, lust and greed that unless paid for by a perfect blood sacrifice, demands you spend eternity in hell burning forever, cut off from God, or permanently dead. It's also not true and is not what a genuine human being, in reality needs to become the monkey on their back over.



What liberation it is to simply recognize that we are all one and the same smaller parts of the one big thing. It is every bit as difficult to live an authentic life as it is to live a life of false compliance to the will of others. It is easy or not easy depending on the need to please everyone or appear to agree when you don't, to be true to your self and by self, I do not mean ego. I mean true to the conscious awareness that abides in the container we all too often mistake for the self. You are not your body. That is merely transportation and a container for a short time. You are not your brain. That is a receiver of information and memories that may, in fact, arise from outside of a bigger you and I than we can imagine. You are not your mind, which is that thinking brain that spins in the angry past or projects itself into the anxiety filled future when it has nothing better to do in the present.  A spinning mind can be a terrible thing...waste it!



How much misery and struggle to be all that one can never really be religion has heaped upon the faithful. Not many will leave the warmth and comfort of the boxes they were born in by happenstance and explore ideas that are not acceptable to the tribe or the church. But some will. They might be labeled "heretics" or perhaps more benevolently, "ahead of their times." In the past, those ahead of their times tended to be burned at the stake. Leaving the box of religious dogma is difficult and often one leaves it alone and on their own. Those in the last box don't often follow. You can be your authentic self as it comes to you and risk a lot but gain a lot, or you can put on your mask and be more comfortable but scarfing down antidepressants the rest of your life. That seems to be the way the road to the fact that being oneself is the most simple spiritual truth there is for a genuine human being.



Politics, fear, guilt and shame are some of the reasons human beings behave badly. Feeling unsafe can do a lot of damage. All of Iraq is coming unglued because of fear and self preservation, not some inherent evil that is the true, ongoing and daily nature of man. When people feel safe, appreciated, respected and listened to, you'd be surprised how much good can be accomplished. If Chicago was Baghdad, these same fears and survival skills would rear their ugly heads in the neighborhood.



What is the most simple spiritual truth a human can come to recognize? While there may be many, the simple recognition that being your authentic self in thought, word and deed is ok, is near the top. If my even saying that to you makes you uncomfortable, then you can know that it is not far from a truth you, as a conscious being, needs to consider in the time you have left to live in your limited five sensed, carbon based wet suit.



Dennis C. Diehl
DenniscDiehl@aol.com


27 comments:

Anonymous said...

The Armstrongist theory was that we are all evil, even after the Holy Spirit was put within us, except, of course, the Armstrongist ministry which could afford to be self righteous because they were exempt.

All that blather early in Scripture about how God finished the creation and saw that it was good was completely ignored. Any observations about the fruit of the Spirit were some how negated within us by the Armstrongist ministry, because our "hearts" were desperately wicked.

I often wondered how this could be without blaspheming the Holy Spirit by calling it evil because it was within us?

And then we found out: Herbert Armstrong really was evil and wicked, along with his son and a whole host of ministers who insisted we frequently sang Psalm 51, particularly after taking the symbols during the Passover and washing one another's feet, as if WE were the ones who committed adultery and committed "murder" against the husbands who supported "The Work" by having them disfellowshipped.

Of course, we have been informed that there is a very great exception to all of this, as it is that Roderick Meredith has proclaimed that he has never committed any MAJOR sin. I guess he's exempt from this being evil thing and I suppose that telling all those lies, breaking his covenant to the people of Global and being a false prophet are such minor things, certainly so much less than thinking about not paying all three tithes on our gross income -- which would be the biggest sin of all.

Irony abounds along with the nutty insanity of the perversity of Armstrongist ministers and administrators to this day.

One wonders how pleased any Deity would be with being libelled and slandered the way the Armstrongists do it?

Anonymous said...

Some, not all ministers, were all or some of the things we would rather not them to be. This is true of all men and women in ministry in all denominations everywhere.

Ministers often found some, not all members to be some of the things we would rather them not to be. This was true of all men and women in membership in all denominations everywhere.

Paul made all of his "wretched man that I am.." statements after he would have had the Holy Spirit and after his "conversion." So I suppose this may have been denying the HS in some way if not careful.

The big point is that it is the Bible itself that labels everyone in all these negative and in need of atonement by execution and blood sacrfice. It is the book that gives men in ministry the idea that they can must preach and believe all the negativity and pass it on.

There are always the individual cases that stand out to us, but it's the book that works the magic of such negativity and rarely even mentions the good and normal folks in everyday life that are sane and balanced.

If you visited from another planet and read the Bible you'd conclude all on Earth were warriors, kings, crazy prophets, wildly disobedient citizens, bloody priests, compliant drones and at each other's throats over just how we all must and should be to make the Deity love us, with little success.

All very confusing to humans as well too.
dd

Anonymous said...

PS And please understand, I am defending any of the many manifestations of abuse or crazy theological perspectives that stem from reading the Bible this way or that.

I just am careful not to say "all ministers" or "all members" or all anyone. This is just not my personal experience after soaking in and being around many ministers in WCG. We remember the obvious examples of what one would wish was not the case. We forget the many men who confused, hurt, disillusioned and skeptical who have simply slipped back into finding some kind of meaningful life after the meaningful one they thought they had found all went to hell.

How many "former, what's your name again?" even express the pain or hurt they have processed on this or really any other sights? How many have at least come back into the picture to encourage or help or try to explain the feelings and emotions of wishing they knew then what they knew now? Almost none. It's just hard to talk about and every former minister knows he risks getting more attacked and made fun of rather than listened to and understood. So they don't bother.

I get a lot of shit behind the scenes at times but still feel the need to process this openly.

Of late, I have been asked to help ministers in all denominations who, at mid life, older and wiser in the faith or lack of it have simply concluded that they are wrong and no longer believe what was poured into their heads as younger men and women. These are the well trained theologian types. Loved in their communities and by their congregations who have no clue, (Like Mother Teresa) they have lost their faith and no longer believe the Book which they finally admit is not all it is made to be. These people went into ministry knowing the flaws and shortcomings of the Bible but still wanted to minister. It was NEVER about the paycheck. They simply want out without destroying everything they have built, including their marriages, homes and stable kids lives. I feel priviledged to be helpful where I can with my limited experiences in a much less educated theological environment, compared to theirs.

It is a private site and by invitation or word of mouth only to protect the pastors as they make these difficult transitions.

anyway...amen.dd

Anonymous said...

oops..."not defending..."

Anonymous said...

PPS (Sorry) How amazing is it that the Tkaches, Joe and Joe Jr. NEVER had it cross their minds to actually help the men, much less the members, they threw into chaos with reckless and thoughtless change?

How cynical to start a "Reconciliation" department where the topic was reconciling the few black/white members who may have dumbass problems with race when tens of THOUSANDS were thrown to the wolves or under the proverbial bus due to a few Imperial Schools Boys deciding they wanted to change the game from Hockey to Basketball and make everyone love it.

The "leadership, falsely so called" could not bring themselves to say, "I don't believe this, I can't take this job." They simply should have sought assylm (good word) with Hank Hannagraaf , whom they were entranced with, the Four Sqare Gospel crowd or the other handwavers that would have taken them in.

Instead they simply pillaged the Church and were allowed by the many to get away with it. How does that happen so often on this planet? How the few screw the many and live on and on.

How often does "so what DID you do with the money from selling some of the most prestigious property in America, and how much was it again. go unanswered and never even come up on the many blogs that might ask?

We pick at those who have spun off from WCG, but who demands answers from the Tkaches and Co.?

It's simply amazing to me. I will pay the rest of my life for this foolish bullshit religious/church/minister/human experience as will many who have simply sunk below the radar to recover alone, minister and member. It's nuts.

Allen C. Dexter said...

Another good and badly needed analysis, Dennis.

This whole, "You're not good enough" spiel is what keeps everybody depressed and compliant so the leeches (often not aware they are leeches) can continue to drain them financially and emotionally. Most ministers end up being mental and emotional vampires.

Realizing I am part of just another species of physical life has gone a long way toward giving me peace with myself. Whether there is a conscious something that continues on remains to be seen. At least, I no longer labor under the fear that whatever might continue on will be damned. What a sadistic doctrine that is!

Anonymous said...

That's really true Dexter. I honestly have lost my "fear" for either the Lake of Fire route where we just sizzle and the pop once out of existance once or the more generally pleasant burning forever and ever for the supposed shortcomings accumlated over a very thin slice of Astronomical time.

(I know..."You'll think differently when you end up there.") Standard Baptist line.

Why people can't see that in organized religion, if you have rewards for the obedient and compliant, you must have a fear mechanism to either keep the faithful in the groupthink or bring newly afraid types in.

In my entire life, Presbyterian or whatever, I have never been able to figure out why the all powerful, all love, all this and that God would find such a way of punishment appealing. It would signal to me that the Deity could not and did not do a very good job in presenting its case to humans in a way they totally understood and could have trust in. It makes the Deity, to me, ineffective, sloppy in presentation and unable to convince. Trusting humans to represent the Deity instead of a personal appearance is simply off the table for me. Trust no man when it comes to "God told me to tell you."

I guess that doesn't strike others the same way.

Anonymous said...

Also....and I know it's just me, but when it says, "Without the shedding of Blood, there is NO forgiveness of sins," my mind simply asks "Why not?"

Is it so difficult to just say, "I forgive you?" Evidently it is.

We have had enough blood shed on this planet. We seem to be awash in it. When this Church age of Pices the Fish and Fishers of Men ends along with it's blood religions, perhaps Aquarius, the Waterman, will make the religious fluid of choice water, since it probably will be in short supply if you wish it to be safe and fresh.

And no, I am not into astrology. But Astro-Theology? Sure! explains a lot about the "Old, old story."

Anonymous said...

Dennis, I appreciate that not all ministers in WCG denounced the members universally -- simply the loudest and most obstreperous.

Most of the ministers I have encountered have been and are obnoxious: They are smarter, faster, better; they had the faith; the rest of us were deficient.

Herbert Armstrong took naive simpletons who had no experience to the dizzying heights of believing that they were the best of the best and the core of the corps. Ambassador College was the model of the Kingdom of God.

All anyone has to do is to look at The Manpower Papers to see just what the ministers in control at headquarters thought of their members -- keeping in mind that the gossip was all about "the best of the best". It's really insulting stuff.

And when people are dragged through the mud with self-righteous assessments by narcissistic selfish sociopaths who represent their leaders they MUST respect by fiat, the entirely predictible result is the hierarchical social order created to suppress and subjugate everyone to contribute to the excessive money manufacturing machine to support the whims and lusts of Herbert Armstrong as the ultimate Guru in the place of God as some sort of weird idolatry.

It was (and still is for the spit-offs) a very sick environment designed to undermine the very fabric of society.

And now given that the Lord's Supper is coming up for the hypocritical bunch of liars and theives of the Armstrongist ministry, wherein they should examine themselves to determine if they are in the faith (which they are not, but they are in some sort of bizarre British Israelism cult of insanity), lest they drink damnation to themselves (which they most certainly will), I have a bit of advice:

Take out that toxic timber thrust through your gut (and not just your eye) before it kills you as the spiritual vampires you are, and begin to appreciate the fact that you are utterly worthless to judge and condemn those people who pay your salaries for no particularly sane reason (and prepare to retire on Social Security or find another line of work), because as sure as death, hell, taxes, revenge and the fury of a woman scorned, you are evil and wicked all the way to the core with no possible way to redemption for the lifetime of corruption you have accepted.

There.

I feel better now.

Anonymous said...

Hi Douglas, I do understand, I am not oblivious. I was very much out of loops even when in the ministry...by choice and design if I could manage it. I only cared about my local church and the friends and things we had in common, real or imagined.

I get more encouragement out of this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A292PF-bseA

Than anything. It makes me wonder if the character we call Paul had an near death experience that he didn't know how to share. I don't know how one almost gets stoned in the Middle East, you either do or don't, but if he survived one, maybe this is what happened to him.

Maybe it happened to a Jesus who survived near death. He certainly, in John and a few other places came back with more of a love for people and sounded a bit like these people who also survived near death.

Just a thought

Anonymous said...

Off topic: Original Sin.

Original Sin is a sin committed by Armstrongist ministers which nobody ever even thought of before.

Allen C. Dexter said...

"It makes the Deity, to me, ineffective, sloppy in presentation and unable to convince."

Exactly, that's why I refer to the whole idea as a "cosmic incompetent."

Anonymous said...

Douglas....humans think of stuff others never thought of until they talk to them and then find out, "oh you thought of that too...?"

:)

Anonymous said...

gosh...that have to be more than three people reading this blog! Anyone home?

Anonymous said...

Biker Bob..I know you are there! I could not resist finding Daniel 7: 10 where we read: “A surging stream of fire flowed out from where he sat.”

You were greatful there was no OT scripture forbidding passing gas back in another post. I believe this may the smoking gun of fartage at least not being a good thing. Oh yes, we can find proof of anything we need to when we need to find it! :)

Den

NO2HWA said...

There's way more than three people reading this blog. The average daily readership is 400+. Obviously they do not post.

Anonymous said...

wow...didn't know that. They must be lurkers who lurk in the night. So only 1% comment at all. Fascinating. Or maybe sad!

Anonymous said...

"Scripture goes out of its way to remind us all that our fundamental human qualities are deceit, wickedness, jealousy, anger, lust and greed. I find that personally to be one of the most unhelpful and controlling lies ever foisted upon human beings by religion. Of course that is how we can act, but that is not who we are by any real means when given the freedom to be authentic and feel safe in being so."

Dennis, really? You should meditate on what you spew a while before you ejaculate it here. Your presumption is becoming less and less amusing and more dangerous.

Smug Jesus person.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps you should not lurk here. Did you ever have any comments on the examples given to show how Paul miquoted the OT and badly used it as it was never meant to be used?

Perhaps you should compare most if not all the references in Hebrews to the OT and see the author of that entire book turned the OT on it's head.

How is this posting considered spew?

How about you post something here intelligent and well thought out so we can have a look. No, we don't want to go to your site. Put it here because it is here we look at things that are not often looked at.

Anonymous said...

PS Please take a moment and explain specifically wherein lies the danger. Don't generalize. Spell it out

Anonymous said...

And SJP....I never write to be amusing. I write to question past ignorance with the hope of replacing it with something more true and meaningful.

I really would like you to pick out some specific points that rank as spew and let's have a chat about them.

Anonymous said...

Off Topic: Forbidden Fruit.

A Forbidden Fruit is a minister who knows he can't be caught being gay.

Larry said...

Christianity has had far too much negative influence. It has played a key role in developing and justifying sources of oppression such as violence, genocide, biological and modern racism.

WCG had racism, sexism, gender, class and disability all to discriminate against and oppress those less valued.

That is thankfully why Grace Communion has reconciliation ministries.

Sam said...

Ok Larry, I'll bite. If WCG/GCI is sooooooooo concerned about reconciling with the 'oppressed' and the 'less valued" why is there still so much hate in the church against gays? Why is there so much hate for the person sitting next to you in church each week?

WCG/CGI has said and printed so much disgusting information that it is appalling.

The standard line for the uber-righteous is "hate the sin, love the sinner," - only thing none of you do that! Do you realize how many gay members there were in the church? They were active in all avenues of ministry in the church, were faithful and had a deep relationship with God. But it was more fun to mock, ridicule and spit at gays than it was to ever sit down and talk to one. Maybe it is time your reconciliation 'ministry' tried that!

Larry said...

If WCG/GCI is sooooooooo concerned about reconciling with the 'oppressed' and the 'less valued" why is there still so much hate in the church against gays?<

Probably because Herbert Armstrong was a class-conscious, homophobic BI racist who blew his spew all through AC, ministers, and racist church.

Anonymous said...

As in many pulpits of many denominatins, "me thinks you protest too much," applied. I found that those who became known for repetitive theme harangues were wrestling personally with some sort of the same problem.

Frankly, I see or hear this in the Apostle Paul's writings. Paul filtered his world in much the same way a repressed gay man would. I could suspect Paul wrestled with it. He always told us of how bad he thought of himself and how evil he felt he was, but NEVER said why. What is it that Paul did that he didn't want to do, or couldn't do what he thought he needed to do? We don't know. We know there was a problem he wrestled with, we don't know what it was. But putting pieces together, PERHAPS, he was a repressed gay man trying to get through in a culture that would have taken him out.

I have wondered if the stories of Jesus and his obcession with his "heavenly Father," MAY reflect his not knowing his paternal origins really. Jesus views God as Father much as a man who did not know his real father. After all, the Pharisees are said to have said to him, "we weren't born of fornication." It meant they knew he was. Another reason they got after Jesus was that they knew the Messiah would come from Bethlehem, but "we know where this fellow comes from..." (Nazareth) The birth stories were written to overcome this problem of origins, so John never heard of the Bethlehem story.

I can almost see Jesus asking Mary, "who is my father?" and getting "God is your father," (now stop asking) as the answer.

In the earliest Gospel, Mark, Jesus family, brothers and Mary come to get him because they thought he was insane. This embarassing forgetting of his birth by Mary (never heard of by Mark) was edited out in Matthew, Luke and John.

Perhaps we have unknowlingly followed repressed men who turned their faults, fears and feelings into Doctrine and an amazing story that helped heal their own wounds.

Just sayin....

Byker Bob said...

Having seen this material before on other forums and blogs, I've taken your somewhat existential premise way back to as far as I can remember, at least as it applies to me. Some believe that when human babies are born, we are all in a tabula rasa state, and that evil comes into our minds via our experiences, and the actions of others surrounding us.

However, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that I was born with a very mean spirited nature. Violent, deceptive, and self-centered. I know, from having children, and by having been around when my brothers and sisters were born, that some humans are born somewhat docile, predominantly kind, and concerned for others. And, there is an entire spectrum, people falling beyond these parameters, and all places in between. Most of us make the basic assumption that the majority of other humans are very similar to one's self, but this is not at all true.

The fact is, it is not only religion which attempts to treat the deficiencies of human nature. The philosophers were also concerned with human behavior, as are our modern psychologists, psychiatrists, and to an extent, government, the penal system, the military, and the free market workplace all seek to modify or improve upon human nature and performance. Often, even those who are "born good" are targeted for improvements to get them up to speed.

The study of human nature is a huge, inclusive topic, with many detours and permutations. Humanity is an ecosystem, which like other ecosystems, needs to be maintained in a healthy state. I don't believe that a method which teaches aspiring to higher pinnacles and warns us about depravity is a bad thing per se. Such a method might be considered a basic part of the checks and balances for the ecosystem.

Unfortunately there have been those who would pervert and subvert the method, seek to control or micromanage all of us, and therein lies the problem. A personal relationship with God, limiting human interference, is on a much higher plane than simple cookbook "religion". It's not unlike a a receptive piece of steel becoming magnetized when exposed to a powerful magnet.

BB