Originally posted December 2014
This has to be one of the most pathetic videos I have seen the Living Church of God put online in ages. Hernandez had a long legacy in Pasadena as a self-righteous, condescending, and abusive man. Many Spanish COG members suffered at the hands of this man and now he is back to lecture us all on what his god requires in order to make it to the "place of safety." That's going to be a rough trip for Hernandez and the LCG when they arrive and see Bob Thiel, Gerald Flurry and Dave Pack in charge.
Persecution is coming. Germany has risen from the ashes, Herbert was right. The devil is rampaging. War is a raging in heaven.
I have a feeling that Bob Thiel was trained at the feet of Hernandez because they both produce the most boring and intellectually bankrupt videos imaginable!
63 comments:
Oh god! I had forgotten about all that talk of "making it."
Everybody always "hoped" that "god-willing" their works would be sufficient to earn them a slot and be "accounted worthy" to "flee" to the "place of safety."
Nobody ever knew the criteria for "making it," of course, so it was the cause of endless simultaneous hope and despair. You would always be "accounted worthy" by Merciful Jesus®, but always be rejected to "go through" the "great tribulation" to "have your gold refined in the fire" by Judgmental Jesus®.
It was also prime material for ministerial threats and douchebaggery. I assume some of these bigshot pastors really did think they could pray to god in time for tea and at the supposedly appointed time, your ass really would be tribulation-bound, just because they prayed for it. I say douchebaggery because that's exactly equivalent to asking god to send a particular person to Auschwitz to be murdered. Nice christian way to be a "servant." NOT!
Imaginary conditions for imaginary Israelites in an imaginary church of God to get to an imaginary place that Loma Armstrong made up. This, to get away from Germans that would need to have undergone a race change somewhere during the last 2,000 years for their ancestors to have been Assyrian.
If these Germans they've been anxiously waiting for ever since 1972 ever do show up, I believe it would be much easier to negotiate with them than with the leaders of the ACOGs who will probably revert totally to Old Testament law, and reintroduce stonings at their place of safety for relatively minor offenses. Once the splinters are offshore, and no longer under that pesky old US Constitution and Bill of Rights, Petra will probably end up being the site of a civil war amongst the splinter groups. Que bummer!
BB
It is actually quite shocking that LCG would promote such a video. Listen to what Hernandez is teaching, and you will see he makes no room for a merciful Jesus Christ as Savior.
Hernandez is preaching a religion of works. Even the other ACOGs admit that works are EVIDENCE that God is saving you, not that your works are the QUALIFICATIONS for your salvation.
In this video, Hernandez reveals that LCG puts its followers into exactly the kind of bondage Jesus warned against. Actually, what Hernandez is preaching is even worse; it is far more strict and hopeless than even the Judaism of the Pharisees, which made room for a merciful God. According to Hernandez, even after you have worked your butt off to qualify to go to the Place of Safety, you still have to keep working so you don't get thrown out.
Jesus said his yoke was easy and his burden light. That alone should prove that LCG's oppressive religion, as revealed by Hernandez, is not the religion of Jesus Christ.
Imagine God as a military commander. His intention is to have a plan of salvation for mankind, who he loves (or will love). He asks his staff of senior officers (angels) to come up with several courses of action (COA) for Him to consider. At the next staff meeting one angel stands and presents his proposal. "One has to be a member of a small splinter group of a nearly unknown church and he has to be good enough for salvation." God asks, "What percentage of mankind would be saved with your proposal?" The angels says, "about 0.002%." God replies, "I'm not giving up my Son for a 0.002% market share. Keep in mind my intention. I want to save as many as possible, not lose as many and give Satan the victory." God then moves onto the next angel hoping that his proposed course of action is more in line with His intentions.
The place of safety has always been the carrot that is used to intimidate the flock to give even more amounts of money.
What is not discerned is that if one's hope is based on a place of safety, then one is only seeking to save their own life, and the wise will remember what Yahshua said about trying to save only one's life.
I believe that one's destiny is mainly already wired so to speak. I say this knowing that our actions or lack of action can alter our destiny. This is my belief at this present time.
Byker Bob: a race change? Is this anything like a sex change? Racial equivalent of body mutilation?
OK, just where it say in the Book of Daniel that there are 10 toes on the image? Where? And this nut keeps going on and on about 10 toes -- just where is this number mentioned in the Bible? Show us!
And persecution on God's church? Really? False prophets lead God's church? What Scripture is that based on? I thought false prophets were to be put to death -- at least we are to avoid them. Fortunately, it's not persecution against Armstrongists, but in a case or two, it is prosecution, but unfortunately, the Cult of Herbert Armstrong Mafia can't tell the difference because it's too fine a distinction. Commit the crime and you'll do the time. It's not persecution. In fact, in this world of crazy cults, Scientologists would have a much higher priority, not to mention radical Islam. Heck, Sony and Seth Rogan make a movie and get far worse persecution.
So here's one more thing, you may have overlooked: There IS NO PLACE OF SAFETY. Let me say that again: There IS NO PLACE OF SAFETY. Forget it. It isn't there. It simply won't be.
This ignores the really big rhinoceros in the bathroom: Why would God provide a Place of Safety for idolaters? What incentive would He have for people who take His Name in vain? Church of God? Really? False prophets promoting Satanic their own kind of caustic persecution of discriminatory elite racism of the sort of 'Ascension' Down Below type of disdainful treatment of the untouchables (rank and file members), hardly inspires any thought of a Merciful God totally ignoring the treatment of the lowly, fatherless, widow and stranger (and anyone trapped in the cult certainly gets stranger and stranger as the years go by). The proud attitude of 'holier than though' by virtue of rank in this rotten hierarchy hardly inspires confidence that some how God sanctions the abuse and neglect of the captains of Church Corporate Industry.
How about coming up with a list of requirements for redemption and entering into the Kingdom of God.
I may be wrong, but I suspect that not being a liar is among them.
You would be safest staying away from these crazies.
Sing A Long Time! -
Sing to the tune of the Green Acres Opening Theme:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzT1kO_-xbQ
(enthusiastic husband)
Petra -Jordan is the place to be...
Desert livin' is the life for me.
Sand spreadin' out so far and wide
Keep Carolina , just give me that desert site!.
(reluctant wife)
Charlotte is where I'd rather stay.
I don't believe in Doctor Hoeh.
I just adore a skeptics view...
Dah-ling I love you but Im not going to that zoo!
...Outdoors!.
...Real stores.
...Fresh air.
...BEWARE!
You are my wife.
Good bye, normal life...
Petra Jordan we are there!
Maybe they will pull this video the way they pulled RCM's video on “God’s Government Is Vital”.
Connie Schmidt,
Most excellent. Thank you for that!
His side kick Herve Villechaize "Tattoo" of "Fantasy Island" says: "Da Plane Boss da Plane, just passed us by. Now what?"
Connie Schmidt said...
"Sing A Long Time! -
Sing to the tune of the Green Acres Opening Theme:"
That was simply beautiful!
You should copyright it and produce a hymnal full of similar sensible and delightful songs for the COG people to sing to help repair their minds and soothe their frazzled nerves.
Byker Bob,
The Germans, according to the cog's, went through racial reassignment surgery when Herbert Armstrong plagiarized Allen's book and made a modern day declaration that they were the ancient Assyrians.
In the process of this declaration, HWA circumcises himself and those who follow his course of bullshit.
There is no backing off when the cults see the hand writing on the wall 'mene, mene, tekel, parsin'
which translated means Herbert Armstrong was full of shit!
Daniel 5: 22 “But you, Herbert, have not humbled yourself, though you knew all this. 23 Instead, you have set yourself up against the Lord of heaven. You have the goblets of gold and silver brought for you, and you and your nobles, your wives and your concubines drank wine from them. You praised the gods of silver and gold, of bronze, iron, wood and stone, which cannot see or hear or understand. But you did not honor the God who holds in his hand your life and all your ways."
If being in Petra, a place of safety, means being with member of any of the C of God, then let me die in the tribulation.
This is a great sermon, I really enjoyed it!!!
Great sermon - great speaker
I left the WCG in 1974. It only takes a few moments of listening to this sermon and think, "Thank God I'm out of that cult." His sermon was over an hour? As much as I enjoy Robin Williams and Lewis Black, I couldn't listen them for that long . . and they make more sense and are far more entertaining than this "preacher." He must have not been very visible when I was at AC from 71-73. Either that, or I was not paying attention. If the LCG had the technology to determine the level of attention that the members were paying, I wonder how many them have tuned him out. Does the LCG allow smartphones in services? If so, I imagine many were paying more attention to them than the sermon.
Super Mario never hit the Pasadena scene till the late 70's to early 80's. He thought he was god's gift to the Spanish department. A perpetual bachelor constantly on the prowl. Super Armstrongite follower to the max.
Babylon is not gone. We are still living in it. HWA had many, many things wrong about prophesy. This "parrot" is trying to make HWA sound like he was right.
Read your Bible and forget about most of the these COG organizations.
Maybe they will pull this video the way they pulled RCM's video on “God’s Government Is Vital”.
December 17, 2014 at 10:51 AM
18 months later, not pulled. This is what LCG truly believes. Pathetic.
Requirements to make it into Petra:
Up to date passport;
Appropriate stamps from Jordanian Embassy for Visa / Passport;
Reservations in the 5 star hotel in Petra;
Gobs of spending money;
Sufficient vacation time (OK if you are retired);
Round trip airline tickets;
Up to date vaccinations;
Quite a lot of energy;
High SPF sunscreen;
Training in avoiding scorpions and other potential dangers (beware of those cute little Egyptian cobras);
Warm clothes for the night air;
Appropriate clothes for hot, dry, dusty days;
Emergency rations;
Courage and a high sense of adventure (willing to face dangerous conditions and hostile natives);
Tolerance for less than conditions conducive to comfort;
Patience to wait for required supplies;
Excellent health (treatment regimens may be risky to life);
Tolerance for boredom;
Tolerance for sleep deprivation;
And lots of batteries and digital media for those pictures and videos to prove you were there for bragging rights.
Not for the faint of heart or gutless dreamers.
It's not like its a place of safety resort or something.
Back in 2011 a man in California died and left a whole bunch of very expensive solar panels to the PCG along with all the rest of his belongings. As you can imagine, Gerald Flurry had a member rent a U-Haul and drive those solar panels out to HQs. They were unloaded into Andrew Lochers barn. Mr. Flurry said they are for Petra!
You'd think he would've had them mounted to "Gods House" the Auditorium to help with the high cost of electricity!
This pretty much says it all: Mat 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
Luk 14:24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.
Mat 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
Those taken won't be tainted with erroneous false doctrine and misconceptions.
God tells us where the POS is and it definitely is not Petra.
I still say that Herbie stole from the JW's- JW's have always taught that the end is near and you need to hook up with them to be saved from the coming tribulation.
Meanwhile most folks throughout time get a do-over in the form of a resurrection in stages during the 1000 year reign of Christ and can choose whether or not to serve Jehovah and live on a paradise earth much like Eden before the fall. JW's solve the predestination vs freewill problem by claiming that only 144,000 preordained from the beginning by God will get to rule with Christ in heaven over the rest of the redeemed who choose to follow Jehovah in the millennium... Oh, and let's not forget 1975- according to JW Biblical chronology, that was the magic 6000 year point since Adam. Oh, and did I mention the JW Governing Body, a select group of crusty old men that have the unique authority to tell us what the Scriptures really mean?
Interestingly enough, JW's don't teach tithing yet still manage to haul in plenty of cash- they're building a new HQ in Warwick NY that totally blows away anything in the COG kingdom...
https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/united-states/jw-headquarters-peak-construction/
WTF???
Ronco
lol Ronco, good post. Yes this ole world is one terrible mess.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Gen 6:13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
The word violence is translated from the Hebrew word "khaw-mawce'" which means "by metonymy unjust gain: - cruel (-ty), damage, false, injustice, X oppressor, unrighteous, violence (against, done), violent (dealing), wrong."
You might also note that God said He will destroy them "with the earth". Since He promised never again to do so with a flood, the only other options are earthquakes, volcanoes, famines, etc.
Some interesting and traumatic times just ahead.
Good luck all.
Ronco, I feel sorry for the JWs, since many go through all that sacrifice, yet no first resurrection possibility. Only those God personally calls have that opportunity.
The JW's sold their Brooklyn headquarters property and made a HUGE fortune. They can probably live off this money for years to come.
It's the peak of the real estate market, so a good move by the JW.
itstimecog, you seem to be some self appointed prophet. So we are all about to be destroyed again but not by a flood this time.
Now why would god have to actually do it, there are so many ways it can happen by accident or because of mans own misdeeds. We could have an asteroid hit which might do it more cleanly and humanely. No instead it is going to be warfare, disease, famines.....as though the world hasn't and still continues to suffer all these. Then a well placed nuclear bomb to finish it off. Maybe god doesn't do this, but lets Satan do it, but a few pets will be left alive somewhere.
If God really wanted to get rid of us all, he could just genetically modify us to be infertile, then wow 100 years later we are gone, why destroy the whole planet too? So he is teaching us a lesson? Well I feel I can learn something without been tortured to death, why do I have to suffer because some people can't? Nothing in this scenario makes sense. But I guess it will be "interesting and traumatic" .
Most of us, in fact all of us aren't here very long anyway, now was that because of genetic engineering - limit them all to 70 years after the flood. Throughout much of our history our life spans have been only 40 years, and then half of us died in the plague in Europe. One thing humans are used to is being wiped out and dying.
Up to date vaccinations !!! Surely you jest.
Get your head out of your bible and take a few science courses.
He sounds like Count Dracula. The problem with the material is that it has been presented thousands of times. For most members, this is spiritual milk. When I attended services, I met baptised members who did not know (I suspect don't believe in) how to break the ice. They do not know to introduce themselves to others. Many members were socially backward. Yet all you get from the pulpit is religious talk about the place of safety and similar. Where oh where is the spiritual meat? Where is the instruction on social relationships? For instance, people do not have a right to be others resident critic or judge. This is a rampant perk by both members and 'ministers.' A person can listen to tens of thousands of these sermons, and still be socially and morally confused.
Least I forget, he is mistaken when he claims that Herbie knew that there was one more resurrection of the Roman empire before the end of WW2. In fact, during the war, he claimed Christ was about to return to put an end to that war. Only when Hitler was defeated, did he change his mind. Whitewashing Herbies 100 plus erroneous predictions that have been out up on this site, is not an admirable trait. Some might even call it lying.
Our own poster Sweetblood rarely has the problem of actually being correct about something, but nailed it here with the "place of safety" being the carrot dangled before members to get more from them. It was one of HWA's most profitable "call to action" closers in his advertising-styled writings. With the various splinters, wannabe splinters, self-appointed prophets and depraved tribulation calculators floating around since the demise of the former WCG, this same bait is still being dangled today. Though the actual effectiveness of it viewed against the aged, dying-off COG membership is debatable.
According to Michael Barkun in his book, Religion and the Racist Right, at first British Israelism viewed the Germans positively as brothers and sisters of the British people and fellow (imaginary) Israelites. But it was during World War I that the Germans were recast (inaccurately) as Assyrians and as the dire enemies of "British Israel." It was World War I that first made the followers of British Israelism to (inaccurately) demonize Germans as Assyrians.
9.54 AM to most people, all that is real is what they can get away with. Which is why God has been wiping out cities and nations, since the beginning of time. It's all that works. That's why for instance, God gave half of Europe to the commies after the last war. To prove through hard experience that Marxism is a fraud. The school of hard knocks is all mankind respects. A longer life span would not change this. You sound like you have no experience with bullies. Try reasoning with them and see what happens. Flogging them, whipping them, beating them, imprisoning them, etc is all that works. That's the way is it.
No Anon 9:54, I am not a self appointed prophet. The only prophets, including to this day, are those in scripture.
When describing those "traumatic" events, over 60 times in Ezekiel alone, God says (or a slight variance) "and Ye shall know that I am the Lord". That is in keeping with what He said in relation to Noah's time; the world is filled with violence.
He created us to be like Him (Gen.1:26) and once again, we have failed, so, when we are resurrected we're going to know from experience, what happens to those who disobey and refuse to repent.
He will use the various methods of famine, pestilence, etc. etc. to demonstrate His power compared to anything man has.
You also said, "Well I feel I can learn something without been tortured to death, why do I have to suffer because some people can't?".
I'm sure you're right about your capability to learn without being tortured however, the problem is to find those qualified to give that teaching.
What is your concern? Not being protected in the wilderness?
Christ tells John to test those in His Church, He goes on to say that NONE of them are chosen. When we add to that scenario the fact He is outside "knocking on the door", it would seem prudent to get on His side of that door don't you think?
It's no big mystery on how to be qualified for the place in the wilderness, just work on being God righteous instead of the self-righteousness taught today.
If your concern is eventual salvation, you need have no concern at all.
You, like everyone else, regardless of present beliefs and practices, sins included, will be resurrected, found guilty but justified since Christ died to pay the penalty for all sins, then sent off to continue your life under God's influence. At the end of which, comes the white throne judgment.
Above all, and please remember, I am NOT a prophet. The next ones on the scene will be the two witnesses and NO, I am NOT one of them either.
There are natural weather, geological, and economic cycles, and highs and lows in terms of international geopolitics. There are also various evolving microbes and genetic code aberrations, presenting fluctuations in health issues. While these have been tapped and exploited to further an Armstrongite agenda, really they have nothing to do with Armstrongism, nor can Armstrongism provide safety from them. Even if it could, the ways in which it is whimsically administered by a ministry drunk on its own authority make it unreliable, as many continue to discover.
False promises are made, and they are then used to leverage the behavior of individual members. Anyone who attempts to make an end run around the leverage rediscovers the highway, which though traumatic in the face of years' programming and conditioning, is probably the best thing that could happen.
As for the Armstrongite version of the Kingdom, what is the value of being a King, or Priest if it ends up being anything like sitting on the various ACOG councils of elders, or being one of Dave Pack's gang of 16? Why should everyone aspire to be some sort of ruler, as opposed to being a finely tuned or highly skilled participant with a fulfilling part in the greater ecology? Ruling with a rod of iron may have been at the top of Herbie's triangle, but it is not at the top of Maslow's Triangle!
BB
itstimecog, I am the who asked if you are a prophet (self appointed). You must be fairly young to be concerned with being protected in the wilderness. It's all ok with me, I will stay and watch the fireworks. I would not be interested in being protected in the wilderness, not when everyone I know including my family won't be there. Plus I have a few medications I need to take in order to stay alive, so I had better not stray too far from doctors and hospitals. On the other hand I will die pretty quickly once the horrors begin.
It is a great joy being old, for one, people can't threaten you with great tribulations too much anymore. As far as eternal salvation well I am not sure about that either, not if it is organised by a group of immortal bullies who made us weak sinners-by-nature and then torture us for being that way. Thankfully the whole thing is just a fairy tale, an opium dream maybe (the book of Revelation).
The worst bullies of all are those who threaten us with our life in the next world unless we pay them and obey them. Yes men can be awful bullies, not sure if that is worse that been pathetic cowards who are their prey.
itstimecog, 3:18 PM, wrote...You, like everyone else, regardless of present beliefs and practices, sins included, will be resurrected, found guilty..."
Found guilty of what? Why should any human being, who has died be guilty of something? What Biblical verse do you use to prove that a dead human being is resurrected to be guilty of something?
I found this, though:
"For the wages of sin is death;..."
So, when a human being dies, isn't it a case of "wages paid?"
And sins? What is said about a human being's sins?
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
Is the devil involved when a human being sins, or did the Bible lie to us?
The Bible gives us an example of when Cain killed his brother, Abel. Do you solely blame/judge Cain as the guilty party? What does the Bible say?
:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous."
Did Cain just murder his brother, or was the "devil in the details?"
:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one..."
Kind of like Judas before he kissed Christ. Satan entered Judas, first!
So, again, how do you find a dead human being as resurrected and still "found guilty?"
It appears the individual will be resurrected without any guilt. There is only one penalty for sin(s), which you and I will also yet pay, and that is death. There are no other wages.
So, what's next for the human being, who will be resurrected and not found guilty?
That answer was also in Romans 6:23 and it will be an outright gift by God's grace and not because of anything "of SELF." Not "of works," etc.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
The wages were paid! God had no other strings attached, except possibly within your theory. The resurrected individuals will have no guilt, but God does intend to pour out His Spirit upon them. You know that you, yourself, have not stopped sinning, nor can you choose to never sin again and choose to make that decision stick within your own personal life. If you believe a person still is "found guilty," then you will be among them in the same condition. You need to revise your theory.
I'll leave you with one other thought from the Apostle Paul, who knew that sin dwelled within him, and evil was present with him, all the days of his life:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19
But, that has nothing to do with you, because God does all of that, doesn't He?
If anything, it's time for you to revise your theory...and time will tell.
John
Hi again Anon 4:28, if we use the exodus as an example, at no time were family members or loved ones left behind. I sure agree with you on that assessment, no way would I be interested in such a place unless my loved ones were included.
Often the prey are caught in the trap that has been cleverly created for that very purpose.
People naturally fear their own mortality and that fact has been exploited to extremes in all of Christendom.
If hell can't be used to intimidate then a revision to the concept must be created to achieve the desired goal, that being the exploitation of the unsuspecting prey.
The condemnations and fears foisted on laity, are exactly what will be fulfilled on those who used such tactics. God says none of them will survive this coming tribulation and if they are incorrigible, it is they who are thrown into the lake of fire.
So, in a manner of speaking, you're going to give them some payback.
We are all sinners and will be until we are resurrected and no doubt for some time after that. Until we are able overcome our sinning nature as you put it.
You need to relax and come to the reality that you're in God's hands, regardless of who you are, and He is going to see that you make it.
Hope you and your loved ones fare well.
Regards, itstimecog
"You, like everyone else, regardless of present beliefs and practices, sins included, will be resurrected, found guilty but justified since Christ died to pay the penalty for all sins, then sent off to continue your life under God's influence. At the end of which, comes the white throne judgment."
*itstimecog*
There it is, that JW do-over stuff again... So much for 'And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:'
The JW's have had over 140 years of prophetic blunders to laugh at and they're still swimming in money- far more than enough to make Ron Weinland blush!!!
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/1800s.php
Ronco
Hi Ronco, I'm sorry but I am completely unfamiliar with JW beliefs and doctrine and frankly, fully intend to stay that way.
That judgment you refer to in Hebrews 9:27 is indeed at the time you're resurrected.
What advantage would there be in judging a corpse? How could anyone be judged with "righteous" judgment if all they had ever known was unrighteousness?
God's plan is to eventually have us like He is, Gen. 1:26, hence, we are resurrected and judged, found guilty but because of Christ's sacrifice, we are found justified for our sinning ways.
Thanks for your input.
Regards, itstimecog
"Regardless of present beliefs and practises?" God will wave a magic wand and all will be forgiven and be well, is magic thinking and laughable. Christ made the point, when criticized for healing on the Sabbath, that the purpose of a moral code is the preservation of human life and the achievement of success. This means firm correct beliefs and practises. Not lawlessness. Simple gardening is one example of this. Gardening rules are firm and fixed. God has a policy of no more Satans, no more demons. Repent, live by the correct beliefs and practises called the ten commandments, internalize them, or off into the lake of fire one goes.
“… I don’t give a flip about whether 2019 happens or not”…” quote by loser weinland
“Out of zeal and enthusiasm for the vindication of Jehovah’s name, Word and purposes, and the desire for the new system, some of his servants have at times been premature in their expectations.”
Watchtower 1979 Jul 1 p.29 How Jehovah Guides His People
Just another Governor Perry Oops moment...
https://youtu.be/ZCyTQEANlmM
Ronco
Connie Schmitt- Great! And it will be ran by a bigger pig than Arnold Ziffel could ever be!
John,aka anon 6:29, Due to the size of your post coupled with my reply, it exceeds the space allotted per post. Therefore, if you have another method by which to receive my reply, please let me know.
Regards,
Itstimecog
Anon 8:50, the summation of your reasoning does apply but not yet. Only after the resurrection when all will have the capability to understand God's laws, etc.
Your synopsis sentences the rest of mankind to the lake of fire without having even heard of Christ.
Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
It doesn't say "there is none righteous, no, not one" EXCEPT Anon 8:50!
Christendom has always applied that fear tactic much to the chagrin of the laity.
itstimecog
I'm just wondering if October's earthquake will make for some outrageously bitchin' surfing conditions.
BB
Anoymous at 1:53 is correct.Bablyon is not gone and we are indeed still living in it.
Itstimecog wrote:
"John,aka anon 6:29, Due to the size of your post coupled with my reply, it exceeds the space allotted per post. Therefore, if you have another method by which to receive my reply, please let me know."
I need not write anymore than what I already wrote, because the scriptures speak for themselves and say what they mean...and mean what they say.
Also, my post was not too long, or I would have been informed of such. In which case, I would have broken my post up into 2 parts.
Apparently, perhaps it is solely your reply that would have been too long. If any of the verses I cited were lies, then cite which ones were lies????????
Send your reply in multi-parts if need be, but the verses I cited are true. Christ, Paul, James and John did not lie to us. You have a problem with them and their words, not me, if you think they lied to us.
May you have a delightful Sabbath...
John
12.59 AM 'there is non righteous' means no one is perfect. It is not a license to be above the law. When a young man asked Christ what he must do to qualify for eternal life, Christ told him to obey the ten commandments. Meaning, yes he can 'understand Gods law.' Why would Christ condemn the Pharisees otherwise, and punish many nations in the old testament? Why the great tribulation then, why the work then? Why did Christ tell his generation to repent then? Why did he say that the publicans and prostitutes were qualifying for the kingdom? Why did Christ say 'well done good and faithful servant' in the parable of talents, if people cannot understand?
That only after the resurrection will people understand, is a cheap cop out, that will rob baptised members of their eternal lives. Are you a Mormon or JW. Your comments and criticizems are not Armstrongitish.
Hi John, I wrote "the size of your post coupled with my reply, it exceeds the space allotted per post", NOT your post alone.
So, as you suggest, I will post it with my reply in separate postings however, I feel that doing so is taking advantage of the hospitality shown by NO2.
It begins with your post to me.
itstimecog, 3:18 PM, wrote...You, like everyone else, regardless of present beliefs and practices, sins included, will be resurrected, found guilty..."
Found guilty of what? Why should any human being, who has died be guilty of something? What Biblical verse do you use to prove that a dead human being is resurrected to be guilty of something?
Itstime: 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
I should think that would answer your query.
I found this, though:
"For the wages of sin is death;..."
Itstime: That verse concludes with Rom 6:23 … but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
In order to be granted eternal life, one must first be judged righteous.
That will never happen to us until we are given that opportunity after we are resurrected.
Christ died for the sins we commit up until our death but not for those we may commit after we’re resurrected.
So, when a human being dies, isn't it a case of "wages paid?"
Itstime: Yes it is a case of wages (debt) paid but paid by Christ.
And sins? What is said about a human being's sins?
"He that committeth sin is of the devil;..." I John 3:8
Is the devil involved when a human being sins, or did the Bible lie to us?
Itstime: The devil is very much involved when we sin but that doesn’t mean he or his cohorts are standing over us.
I can’t speak for you but I certainly don’t require the presence of Satan to commit sins. I seem to handle that quite well on my own and all to often I might add.
Satan is involved in anything that violates God’s laws, 1John 3:4.
The Bible gives us an example of when Cain killed his brother, Abel. Do you solely blame/judge Cain as the guilty party? What does the Bible say?
:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous."
Did Cain just murder his brother, or was the "devil in the details?"
:12 "Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one..."
Itstime: Again, Cain’s act was a transgression of the law, which incidentally, proves the commandments were in effect long before they were given to Moses.
Kind of like Judas before he kissed Christ. Satan entered Judas, first!
Itstime: Someone being possessed is very different then one being just influenced. It goes from having options to having no options in a hurry.
So, again, how do you find a dead human being as resurrected and still "found guilty?"
Itstime: He is first resurrected then judged and found guilty of transgressing the law, without that judgment, the blood of Christ could not be applied to him/her. They would remain in limbo.
John, this is part 2.
It appears the individual will be resurrected without any guilt. There is only one penalty for sin(s), which you and I will also yet pay, and that is death. There are no other wages.
Itstime: Only to your reasoning does it appear that way but again, he must be found guilty in order to have Christ’s sacrifice apply to him as well.
So, what's next for the human being, who will be resurrected and not found guilty?
Itstime: Unless they are above Christ in righteousness, that scenario is impossible.
That answer was also in Romans 6:23 and it will be an outright gift by God's grace and not because of anything "of SELF." Not "of works," etc.
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Itstime: How do you qualify for that gift if you’re not first judged worthy of receiving it?
You might want to ponder the verse just before that: Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
You “have your fruit unto holiness” BEFORE “the end everlasting life”.
You might want to add this to your repertory: Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
You have to walk the walk, not just talk the talk.
The wages were paid! God had no other strings attached, except possibly within your theory. The resurrected individuals will have no guilt, but God does intend to pour out His Spirit upon them. You know that you, yourself, have not stopped sinning, nor can you choose to never sin again and choose to make that decision stick within your own personal life. If you believe a person still is "found guilty," then you will be among them in the same condition. You need to revise your theory.
Itstime: ”No strings attached”, you’re kidding right? Wouldn’t you consider Christ’s sacrifice as a string attached?
I'll leave you with one other thought from the Apostle Paul, who knew that sin dwelled within him, and evil was present with him, all the days of his life:
Itstime: Yes, I can sure relate to that one, it’s the same with me, guess that’s why God commands and grants repentance.
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Corinthians 5:19
Itstime: The word “imputing” is log-id'-zom-ahee, which means “to take an inventory, that is, estimate”.
It does not mean forgiving or canceling out those sins, to the contrary, it means just the opposite. That they are recognized as such and responsibility is taken for all of them.
But, that has nothing to do with you, because God does all of that, doesn't He?
Itstime: Yes that’s right, two things I know for sure, there is a God, and I am not Him.
If anything, it's time for you to revise your theory...and time will tell.
Itstime: It would seem that a revision of theory is something you need to consider more then I.
John
June 17, 2016 at 6:29 PM
Thanks John.
Regards, itstimecog
Hi BB
You wrote "I'm just wondering if October's earthquake will make for some outrageously bitchin' surfing conditions."
I'm sure it will be absolutely awesome surfing conditions although, I don't know if it would be survivable.
Good luck with that.
Take care BB.
itstimecog
itstimecog, you are extremely cruel scheduling Armageddon on October 13. That is the very peak of good grouse and woodcock hunting in my area. I always try to make a trip to some of my favorite coverts up north in that week.
In fact, all of October is my favorite month. Near the first, the duck season opens. In the river swamp, pike strike readily at lures dropped next to shore. They are feasting on frogs, which are easy for them to catch because they have slowed down in the cooling autumn water. My garden is still producing turnips and collards, and the recently harvested potatoes and winter squash are at their prime. The weather is cool enough to enjoy opening the front of the stove and enjoying the flames. In the fierce cold to come, we will have to close it to extract maximum heat from the wood. Life is good in October. If my doctor ever tells me I've just got one month to live, October is the month I will pick.
And here you go warning about some catastrophic climax to the human drama that will ruin the whole second half of the month.
Poo on you!
I left in 1975 when the Armstrong prophecy mold failed. Others remained with the group as it backpedalled and reinvented itself, sadly, some of my own family members being amongst them. However, what was really a shock to my system, was that in the early 2,000s when I first got on the internet and became aware of splinter groups and the various Armstrong recovery sites, my senses were totally assaulted by the knowledge that people were still preaching the imminence of the end, recalculating the supposed numbers, and using expressions like "possibly within the next 3-5 years". Apparently, some people never, ever learned a single thing from the failure of 1975, and the dangers of basing one's life on end times prophecy! In fact, the discordant voices had actually become louder, the fantasies "leaders" were weaving into the prophecies had become more ludicrous, ministerial oppression of the flocks had worsened, and financial exploitation had become more extreme! Everybody had taken on biblical titles for themselves, and using the term "Laodicean" on anyone from the other splinters who failed to jump ship and follow them.
The method HWA had learned from William Miller, is that you pick an event in prophecy, you convince your listeners that that event has a fixed value point in history, and once you have established that point, you do your math from there. When this fails, as it always has, followers run around busily correcting the math, attempting to get it right. They get to be filled with ego right up until their theory fails.
The flaw is this: What if God is not working with a fixed timeline and math to determine when the end will occur? What if He is waiting on a set of behavioral conditions exibited by man? What if He is waiting for the point of no return so far as mankind's destruction of the ecology of the planet is concerned? I am certain that readers comprehend that fixed events and math would be incapable of revealing the timing of a conditionally-based decision by God to finally pull the plug.
Let's face it. You can still make it to your car each morning to go to work without being sodomized by your neighbors. Children can still grow up with good values, and make something of their lives. The police in most areas are not corrupt, and do their best to protect and serve. New diseases do surface, but science studies, controls, and minimizes them. People are even coming around to recognizing and dealing with climate change.
And if you are worried about the descendants of certain ancient tribes being punished, you should know that those tribes have largely been assimilated, quite some time ago. They are unrecognizeable as distinct groups today, and the postulated suspects were not the only groups colonizing and birthing the dominant nations of the present.
The Armstrong movement should de-emphasize prophecy, (which they clearly do not understand) and begin to learn and teach Christian values and Christian living. Continuing to exploit prophecy, using it to control members, and to create an artificial sense of urgency amongst members is only going to create more mental problems and spawn suicides. It would be one thing if the prophecies were accurate, and therefore useful as a warning, but they have proven themselves not to be.
BB
Does this sound familiar and doesn’t it apply?
Eze 12:22 Son of man, what is that proverb that ye have in the land of Israel, saying, The days are prolonged, and every vision faileth?
Eze 12:23 Tell them therefore, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will make this proverb to cease, and they shall no more use it as a proverb in Israel; but say unto them, The days are at hand, and the effect of every vision.
Eze 12:24 For there shall be no more any vain vision nor flattering divination within the house of Israel.
Eze 12:25 For I am the LORD: I will speak, and the word that I shall speak shall come to pass; it shall be no more prolonged: for in your days, O rebellious house, will I say the word, and will perform it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 3:7 But the house of Israel will not hearken unto thee; for they will not hearken unto me: for all the house of Israel are impudent and hardhearted.
Isa 30:9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
Isa 30:10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
Yes, don’t tell us what is really about to befall us, tell us lies like Matthew 24:36 still applies even though Christ said the exact opposite through Daniel and Amos.
Of course it’s easy to criticize and throw it all on the Armstrong prophecies and the turmoil they cause even to this day, but therein lies the answer. They were Armstrongs prophecies, not Gods.
When the prophetic time spans of 1335, 1290, 1260 and even forty two months, match perfectly to the time spans between the Holy Days that depict the events portrayed in the prophecies, one had better sit up and take notice.
That’s what the Christ I follow tells me, what’s the Christ you follow tell you?
If you can’t see that the U.S. is falling apart from within, that it has no credibility left internationally.
That the military forces are gathered strategically around the Middle East.
The E.U. is now talking about forming their own military force and restructuring or forming a new E.U. with Germany as its head.
The pope kissing the feet of Muslims as he prepares to be welcomed onto the temple mount.
Record setting weather extremes around the globe with new and old viruses breaking out and the collapse of antibiotics.
If you can’t see those things then indeed you are fulfilling Revelation 3:17.
Itstimecog 8:00 AM responded to my questions with writing this answer:
"...Itstime: 1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
I should think that would answer your query..."
The verses cited exist and they are true, but my questions were not answered with those verses.
And what was my query again? It was actually several questions asking the same thing in different words?
"...Found guilty of what? Why should any human being, who has died be guilty of something? What Biblical verse do you use to prove that a dead human being is resurrected to be guilty of something?..."
The wages of sin were paid by death of the individual(s) in whom that sin dwelled. Then, at some time in the future the individual(s) are resurrected...WITHOUT ANY SIN DWELLING IN them. They are sinless.
So, again, how/why do you find those individuals guilty?
Are you accusing/judging them to be guilty of some sort of a "double jeopardy?" If so, then you do not really believe that the wages of sin is death. You have some other "strings attached" to them people that died that God did not have attached to them. How can you do that? The next thing is to receive God's promised gift and not continue to hold them guilty, as if death were not enough wages to pay.
When they are resurrected they awake and they are righteous...sinless! When they died...that death paid for their wages. Death is a temporary cessation from life.
Are you thinking those individuals earn more wages for more sin in their lives? How so? He that sins is of the devil: so said I John 3:8. Do you think Satan is going to snare those individuals again and make them guilty again?
So, no, your cited verses do not answer the query. You only cited a bunch of verses. It is a simple equation:
You sin(s).
Wages are established for those sin(s).
You must and will die...and those wages are paid.
You cannot get around that.
You cannot find them guilty after their deaths.
You are finding them guilty......as though the wages were not paid, as though Paul lied to us in Romans 6:23, and so I ask: how is that true?
What you think can only be true if the wages of sin is something else other than death. It sounds like you don't believe Paul's words in Romans 6:23.
Besides, you know that you cannot simply choose to quit sinning, and choose to never sin again for the rest of your life and make your choice stick. You will not impress God at all. Ancient Israel's experiences proved that to us. So, how do you think you are going to qualify for anything? Your own repentance isn't all that "good," is it? Now, if you really can choose to stop sinning and make that choice of yours stick for the rest of your life, then tell us your secret. Just "trying" not to sin doesn't cut it with God, but God is working out something b/c we are told this:
"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, NOT imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." 2 Cor 5:19
Yes, God has a big part in that, but where are you? God will reconcile the entire world unto Himself, but you aren't going to help Him. God does know what is in our hearts and it ain't pretty.
So, again, how do you find an individual guilty of something AFTER the wages of sin have been paid and that individual's death?
John
John
BB is right about the mathematical timing part. Timing is based on society unfolding in waves that are mathematically related in amplitude (such as price in the stock market and commodities), and related in timing. Which means that there is a mathematical relationship in wave peaks. However, waves can be truncated(shorted)or elongated, which changes the timing as well. What this all means is that there is a multitude of timing patterns that waves can conform to, with some being more higher probability than others. There is NOT one correct timing pattern. Only hindsight will tell which was the 'correct' pattern. It is human behaviour, not a mathematics, that chooses this 'correct' pattern.
In fact there are commercial computer programs that use timing are a main criteria in predicting stock market turning points. The program sellers point out that you are still in the realm of workability, with the programs giving higher probability outcomes. Stock market timing worked well in the 1930s, but its accuracy has diminished with time. This is because the market is like a war zone, with the 'enemy' constantly changing tactics, as in a real war.
In conclusion, anyone who claims to know the timing, is making an educated guess, since there is a multitude of geometric patterns that history can conform to.
There are books on this, if anyone wants to research the topic. I have read several, since I play the stock market.
John 7:55, as far as I am concerned, I have already answered your questions. Perhaps not to your satisfaction but that doesn't concern me, they are answered to my satisfaction.
If you're not willing to accept that then all I can and will says "Oh well".
I know what I know and couldn't care less if you accept it or not. I'm not after a following and am very comfortable with the knowledge I have.
End of discussion.
itstimecog
7:55
You see like a follower of Martin Armstrong. :-)
I like BB 12:55 posting.
My personal flavoring of his posting would be that the very definition of what we are calling Armstrongism is actually eschatology.
Eschatology has always been around and will be around as long as the bible is around.
It is impossible to reform Armstrongism as it is impossible to expect that there will not be a revival of "armstrongism" since armstrongism is just plain clear unadultered eschatology concerning itself with the perceived end of all things.
The true value in eschatology is the fact that for all men it is all over within 80 years. And this is far better than the past because in the past for ALL men especially women the END was NIGH within 30 years from birth.
nck
Folks, the thing we must also remember is that as God in the flesh, and one of the co-creators, Jesus would have been the very author of mathematics! So if His return were based on math that humans could deduce or decypher, He certainly would have known to the very second when that would be. Yet, he deferred to the Father, stating that He, Jesus, Himself was not even privy to that information. The only possible explanation for that element of mystery would be that the timing of Jesus' return would be the Father's judgment call, based on the prevalence or predominance of evil, in accordance with the examples provided by the flood, and by the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Armstrongs claimed to be warning the world, based on applying math to history and prophecy. Think of the 1950s, '60s, and early '70s as the first bounce of a rubber ball. The math failed in 1975, and the ball bounced or rebounded. GTA was soon out of the picture, HWA was past his prime, and the general population's knowledge of them gradually faded as the ball recoiled upwards. As others claimed to continue the warning, the ball lost energy, bouncing less and less high in spite of the pencil sharpening and renewed attempts at correcting the math. Now, the ball is nearly still. The once noticeable warning has become divided, less and less powerful, and virtually unnoticeable except to a core of die hard Armstrongists, who are still waiting. All that remains is for the ball to settle one last time, and by force of gravity, to roll away.
By this point in time, the math has been analyzed into the ground. "The world" doesn't even notice the latest new math formula. Former WCG ministers have made prophecies which only end up embarrassing themselves, and greatly inconveniencing their followers, usually through corrupt and crippling exercise of authority, and/or persuading members to waste their financial resources. Every attempt has been made to validate these teachers' credibility and authority, even by claiming the mantle of some of the minor prophets. The entire concept of warning has been broken by followers of Herbert Armstrong crying wolf, and not being able to produce so much as a stillborn wolf cub. Plus, even if the warning were unique, strong, fresh, and audible, what good would be accomplished by masses of mongrel English-speaking people suddenly repenting and embracing the Old Covenant? The only truly unique event that could yet happen within the Armstrong movement would be if just one group finally admitted that they don't have a clue regarding matters of prophecy, thus embracing Jesus' own guidance, and acknowledging that they had attempted to know the unknowable. Now, wouldn't that be awesome?
BB
"He sounds like Count Dracula."
I was thinking this Count!
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