Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Aron Ra has an entire series of videos where he totally debunks the complete idiocy of David C Pack. There is nothing David C Pack says that is truthful. Pack is as theological bankrupt as Gerald Flurry and Rod Meredith.
Take a chill pill dear, you sound like Aron Ra himself as you try to defend him as if he is right, he simply spends all his time trying to debunk something he doesn't believe in, his bitterness must stem from the scripture, "it's a shame for a man to have long hair", he's wasting his time because any true believer called by God can see right through him and his nonsense.
I like AronRa and he has been entertaining to me when it comes to the creation vs. evolution debates. The fact that he looks like an old 15th century death-knight warlord is the icing on the cake. Diehard creationists see AronRa and think to themselves, this will be so easy, and yet, Aronra will wipe the floor with their ass while remaining calm and even polite. But, you are right Ashley, even old videos on youtube will be titled 'the atheist church', discussions labeled as 'prayer meetings' and such. Though, the biggest issue I have with him now, is his consumption of the Atheism+ kool-aid.
I like that he wears a "Skull and Crossbones" shirt which bespeaks his stupidity as one poster once said, when in reality the skull is a well known hominid skull . Well, well known in the paleontology community. Aron destroyed Dave's series with polite and up to date science done well. Except for the parts where he says things like, "and you don't know what you are talking about," "everything you just said is a lie," "no...that's you talking about YOU," and a few more choice tidbits when Dave strayed way out of bounds. No creationist minister I ever met and certainly none in the Churches of God could stand up to his understanding of the issues and what is going on in the current world of discovery.
The purpose of science is to discover after all, while men like Dave's role is to maintain the myth at all costs no matter what we have learned about origins since the Bronze Age.
Aron is coming to town in the Fall and we hope to meet . His friends are men like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krause which is cut above Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Waterhouse and Dr Hoeh. I recall decades ago showing Dr Hoeh a Fluted Clovis point which is about 12,000 years old. He looked at it, then me and smiled his anxious smile and said, "Lovely, and walked away. lol I should have known then .....
Religion pre-supposes that some idea is true then picks and chooses bits of facts to support the pre-supposed idea. The scientific way of reasoning builds a body of facts "before" a conclusion is accepted as true or likely true. I have been told that I lack "faith" because I question the existence of God. So faith is believing something without real evidence that it is true or exists. I believe that the scientific method is the only rational way to find what is actually true and what is just false assumption based on pre-supposed conclusions. Religion is based on pre-supposed ideas that are not based on solid facts.
Aron Ra has long been a well-respected member of the YouTube atheist community and is one of the smartest and most rational people on the Internet. That he has been taking the COG to task is wonderful. He's a credit to atheism.
6.39 AM. "You shall know them by their fruits." This famous line has a name, it's called the scientific method. There are other similar statements like 'prove all things,' 'believe not every spirit,' 'it is to a kings honour to search out a matter,' etc. Christ on several occasions criticised his disciples for not thinking, and the Pharisees for not thinking straight. Atheists do not have a monopoly on reason, neither is every Christian a mystic (belief without proof).
Ed, science cherry picks it facts as well. I would love to hear Aron Ra explain where the laws of physics and chemistry come from, and why the 35 fundamental constants such as the speed of light, are just right to enable life. Change these constants even slightly, and no suns, and no life.
"Aron Ra has long been a well-respected member of the YouTube atheist community and is one of the smartest and most rational people on the Internet. That he has been taking the COG to task is wonderful. He's a credit to atheism."
And who, these days, do pray tell is a credit to Armstrongism?
Ashley, have you ever actually studied science? There's a lot more "hard" evidence supporting an old Earth and a progression of species than you seem to believe. The age of artifacts can often be determined with considerable accuracy.
You should read some of the information available before closing your mind. One place to start is with the Science & the Sacred blog found in the sidebar. It's written by Christian scientists who present the evidence for evolution and its implications for Christianity. A list of recent posts can be found here.
Aron Ra has more knowledge, charisma, and a better sense of basic logic than the dogmatic Armstrongist ministers to whom we have been exposed. I would also guess that he is higher on the IQ food chain, and we can readily see that he is able to express what he knows intelligently and succinctly. "Poor" Dave Pack was totally unarmed by the Armstrongism he learned and has modified, and was easy prey for Ra.
In a sense, Aron Ra is analogous to the bigger friend a couple of grades ahead to whom you could always go if the bully in your own class was after you.
However, lest anyone be once again tempted that there could be a single source for all we need to know or believe, I'd caution people to consider Aron Ra as one of many resources, to have a number of personal Aron Ras floating around in the background to be tapped into as appropriate or needed. It was a disastrous limitation to make Herbert W. Armstrong the single or primary source for all that counted in life. Gurus (and this was certainly true of HWA) do not allow or encourage their followers to rise above them in terms of knowledge or ability. Or, in neutral, more metaphoric terms, "A stream can rise no higher than its source". No human is the be all and end all for life, though once one has been co-opted by one who aspires to be such, it is easy to "switch addictions" by looking for another. That would be faulty recovery. In the specific world of COGdom, that mindset is one reason why people splinter surf. Better to avoid dead ends, and to preserve as many options as possible. It is much more difficult to sink or confuse an individual who is well rooted amongst numerous options. My advice is to become as well rooted as possible.
I was sucked into Armstrongism because I was naïve and didn't employ the critical thinking, scientific methods of thinking. If I would have used rational reasoning instead of false assumptions, much of which where conclusions based on emotional influences such as guilt and fear, I could have seen through the b.s. that Armstrong was putting out. I can't turn back the past but I can avoid the same mistakes in the future. I employ Morgan Freeman's anvice that he give on his series, "Through The Wormhole", question everything!
Anonymous Anonymous said... "Ed, science cherry picks it facts as well. I would love to hear Aron Ra explain where the laws of physics and chemistry come from, and why the 35 fundamental constants such as the speed of light, are just right to enable life. Change these constants even slightly, and no suns, and no life." August 13, 2016 at 8:53 AM
Yes, Anon, scientists can't explain how the laws of physics and chemistry originated. They're busy running experiments on both the subatomic and cosmic scales to untangle the mysteries. Who knows what they will eventually come up with?
As for the apparent miracle that the universe can support life, it seems miraculous only because we consider ourselves the be-all and end-all of creation. Take a broader perspective. As a whole, the universe is completely unfit for life (at least our carbon-based kind). There may be other rocky lumps out there besides ours that have an atmosphere moist and temperate enough, but on the whole what we find is vast sterile voids interrupted sparsely by objects far too hot or cold, too dense or wispy, or too chemically and radiologically intense for things like us.
Considering these proportions, it seems far more likely that whoever put the apparatus together had something else in mind. Maybe a gigantic fireworks display or the infrastructure for a system too vast for us to imagine. Maybe it was intended to be pure, pristine. The biotic scum that covers the earth and perhaps a few other planets could be a contaminant, like the mold that recently appeared on the shady side of my house after a series of rains. If the mold consisted of creatures that think like us, they would probably worship me for supplying such a moist and temperate habitat, miraculously suited for their existence because I love them each individually and have a marvelous plan for their salvation.
In other words, Anon, we may well be a bug rather than a feature.
3:18, the ticket is to remain young and relevant. Nature has a way of obsoleting old folk in the final years before they surrender their places on the planet. You can prolong the process by tapping into youthful energy and ideas, as Bernie Sanders and others, or you can just fade into insignificance like the people leading the ACOGs who are still plugged into HWA and the Victorian era. Maybe if some of the COGlodyte leaders looked and acted more contemporarily, they could actually reach people. I mean an ear ring on Gerald Flurry, shirt sleeve tattoos on Dave Pack, or Rod Meredith driving a Cobrajet Mustang would hardly be silver bullets, but at least they wouldn't look like they still idolized the 1940s (Oops, forgot! Betty Scarborough got in trouble for singing a 1940s song!)
Yes! It is wise to become well rooted. For some, one of those ways is to see these videos. They're not for everyone, though.
Do I suggest that becoming "well rooted" means a person should waste time viewing asshole Christian TV preachers, or going to a crazy 'Promise Keepers' rally? NO!
It's interesting how some people suggest that others look into cesspools to find diamonds.
I'm not one of his fans, 1:45. Just observing that somehow he's been able to do a better job of reaching people with his (antiquated) message than the ACOGs do with theirs.
Dennis' fluted clovis point was made in a counterfeit antiquities fab shop.
Ashley, I'll vote for you in the 'new to Banned yet still super brainwashed!" category.
Ha! Very funny, Ashley! I believe you don't really believe that silliness, and I think that you're just teasing us by portraying a super-nutty person. Job well done, Ashley!
ashley froud, because of your recent comments, I will no longer be recommending you for the Christian COG version of "The Bachelor" , because you have "sinkded vary low"
If you act righteously for awhile, it's possible that on the show, an animatronic Herbie will come to your rescue and rape your daughters while screaming, "DOROTHY!!!"
Anonymous at 11:17 AM said...“This odd meme of trying to paint non-religion as a religion is like calling 'off' a TV channel or 'not playing golf' a sport.”
Funny that you should mention that.
“Off” is one of my favorite television channels, and I love the relaxation of not playing golf.
Retired Prof said...“Maybe it was intended to be pure, pristine. The biotic scum that covers the earth and perhaps a few other planets could be a contaminant, like the mold that recently appeared on the shady side of my house after a series of rains.”
Yes, the “scum of the earth” (such as evilutionists) are a contaminant, but if you keep your mind pure and pristine, you will not be a part of that and will not add to the problem.
38 comments:
Take a chill pill Dear....
Aron Ra has an entire series of videos where he totally debunks the complete idiocy of David C Pack. There is nothing David C Pack says that is truthful. Pack is as theological bankrupt as Gerald Flurry and Rod Meredith.
Ashley, can you give links to some of your youtube videos and webpages, please?
I'd be particularly interested in links to any debates you had with Aron or Dennis.
Take a chill pill dear, you sound like Aron Ra himself as you try to defend him as if he is right, he simply spends all his time trying to debunk something he doesn't believe in, his bitterness must stem from the scripture, "it's a shame for a man to have long hair", he's wasting his time because any true believer called by God can see right through him and his nonsense.
I like AronRa and he has been entertaining to me when it comes to the creation vs. evolution debates. The fact that he looks like an old 15th century death-knight warlord is the icing on the cake. Diehard creationists see AronRa and think to themselves, this will be so easy, and yet, Aronra will wipe the floor with their ass while remaining calm and even polite. But, you are right Ashley, even old videos on youtube will be titled 'the atheist church', discussions labeled as 'prayer meetings' and such. Though, the biggest issue I have with him now, is his consumption of the Atheism+ kool-aid.
DBP
Aron is a hero to those that want to believe that sort of junk....(not defending Pack at all)
I like that he wears a "Skull and Crossbones" shirt which bespeaks his stupidity as one poster once said, when in reality the skull is a well known hominid skull . Well, well known in the paleontology community. Aron destroyed Dave's series with polite and up to date science done well. Except for the parts where he says things like, "and you don't know what you are talking about," "everything you just said is a lie," "no...that's you talking about YOU," and a few more choice tidbits when Dave strayed way out of bounds. No creationist minister I ever met and certainly none in the Churches of God could stand up to his understanding of the issues and what is going on in the current world of discovery.
The purpose of science is to discover after all, while men like Dave's role is to maintain the myth at all costs no matter what we have learned about origins since the Bronze Age.
Aron is coming to town in the Fall and we hope to meet . His friends are men like Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins and Lawrence Krause which is cut above Herbert Armstrong, Gerald Waterhouse and Dr Hoeh. I recall decades ago showing Dr Hoeh a Fluted Clovis point which is about 12,000 years old. He looked at it, then me and smiled his anxious smile and said, "Lovely, and walked away. lol I should have known then .....
Religion pre-supposes that some idea is true then picks and chooses bits of facts to support the pre-supposed idea. The scientific way of reasoning builds a body of facts "before" a conclusion is accepted as true or likely true. I have been told that I lack "faith" because I question the existence of God. So faith is believing something without real evidence that it is true or exists. I believe that the scientific method is the only rational way to find what is actually true and what is just false assumption based on pre-supposed conclusions. Religion is based on pre-supposed ideas that are not based on solid facts.
Aron Ra has long been a well-respected member of the YouTube atheist community and is one of the smartest and most rational people on the Internet. That he has been taking the COG to task is wonderful. He's a credit to atheism.
6.39 AM. "You shall know them by their fruits." This famous line has a name, it's called the scientific method. There are other similar statements like 'prove all things,' 'believe not every spirit,' 'it is to a kings honour to search out a matter,' etc. Christ on several occasions criticised his disciples for not thinking, and the Pharisees for not thinking straight. Atheists do not have a monopoly on reason, neither is every Christian a mystic (belief without proof).
Ed, science cherry picks it facts as well. I would love to hear Aron Ra explain where the laws of physics and chemistry come from, and why the 35 fundamental constants such as the speed of light, are just right to enable life. Change these constants even slightly, and no suns, and no life.
"Aron Ra has long been a well-respected member of the YouTube atheist community and is one of the smartest and most rational people on the Internet. That he has been taking the COG to task is wonderful. He's a credit to atheism."
And who, these days, do pray tell is a credit to Armstrongism?
I am opting for " answer not a fool according to her folly" on this one Ashley..
Ashley, have you ever actually studied science? There's a lot more "hard" evidence supporting an old Earth and a progression of species than you seem to believe. The age of artifacts can often be determined with considerable accuracy.
You should read some of the information available before closing your mind. One place to start is with the Science & the Sacred blog found in the sidebar. It's written by Christian scientists who present the evidence for evolution and its implications for Christianity. A list of recent posts can be found here.
And you were even being generous with the 12,000 estimate, since the dating for Clovis points is usually 13,000 to 13,500. :)
Aron Ra has more knowledge, charisma, and a better sense of basic logic than the dogmatic Armstrongist ministers to whom we have been exposed. I would also guess that he is higher on the IQ food chain, and we can readily see that he is able to express what he knows intelligently and succinctly. "Poor" Dave Pack was totally unarmed by the Armstrongism he learned and has modified, and was easy prey for Ra.
In a sense, Aron Ra is analogous to the bigger friend a couple of grades ahead to whom you could always go if the bully in your own class was after you.
However, lest anyone be once again tempted that there could be a single source for all we need to know or believe, I'd caution people to consider Aron Ra as one of many resources, to have a number of personal Aron Ras floating around in the background to be tapped into as appropriate or needed. It was a disastrous limitation to make Herbert W. Armstrong the single or primary source for all that counted in life. Gurus (and this was certainly true of HWA) do not allow or encourage their followers to rise above them in terms of knowledge or ability. Or, in neutral, more metaphoric terms, "A stream can rise no higher than its source". No human is the be all and end all for life, though once one has been co-opted by one who aspires to be such, it is easy to "switch addictions" by looking for another. That would be faulty recovery. In the specific world of COGdom, that mindset is one reason why people splinter surf. Better to avoid dead ends, and to preserve as many options as possible. It is much more difficult to sink or confuse an individual who is well rooted amongst numerous options. My advice is to become as well rooted as possible.
BB
This odd meme of trying to paint non-religion as a religion is like calling "off" a TV channel or "not playing golf" a sport.
I was sucked into Armstrongism because I was naïve and didn't employ the critical thinking, scientific methods of thinking. If I would have used rational reasoning instead of false assumptions, much of which where conclusions based on emotional influences such as guilt and fear, I could have seen through the b.s. that Armstrong was putting out. I can't turn back the past but I can avoid the same mistakes in the future. I employ Morgan Freeman's anvice that he give on his series, "Through The Wormhole", question everything!
Old Aron Ra Ra Ra for Evilution still needs to, in the words of George Thorogood, “Get a haircut, and get a real job.”
And that skull and crossbones T-shirt that Long-Hair wears is so juvenile. Most boys eventually grow up and stop wanting to be a pirate.
Anonymous Anonymous said...
"Ed, science cherry picks it facts as well. I would love to hear Aron Ra explain where the laws of physics and chemistry come from, and why the 35 fundamental constants such as the speed of light, are just right to enable life. Change these constants even slightly, and no suns, and no life."
August 13, 2016 at 8:53 AM
Yes, Anon, scientists can't explain how the laws of physics and chemistry originated. They're busy running experiments on both the subatomic and cosmic scales to untangle the mysteries. Who knows what they will eventually come up with?
As for the apparent miracle that the universe can support life, it seems miraculous only because we consider ourselves the be-all and end-all of creation. Take a broader perspective. As a whole, the universe is completely unfit for life (at least our carbon-based kind). There may be other rocky lumps out there besides ours that have an atmosphere moist and temperate enough, but on the whole what we find is vast sterile voids interrupted sparsely by objects far too hot or cold, too dense or wispy, or too chemically and radiologically intense for things like us.
Considering these proportions, it seems far more likely that whoever put the apparatus together had something else in mind. Maybe a gigantic fireworks display or the infrastructure for a system too vast for us to imagine. Maybe it was intended to be pure, pristine. The biotic scum that covers the earth and perhaps a few other planets could be a contaminant, like the mold that recently appeared on the shady side of my house after a series of rains. If the mold consisted of creatures that think like us, they would probably worship me for supplying such a moist and temperate habitat, miraculously suited for their existence because I love them each individually and have a marvelous plan for their salvation.
In other words, Anon, we may well be a bug rather than a feature.
ashley froud said: "It's not a hard science, it's mostly speculation about an imaginary world that they would like to exist, but doesn't."
All I see is irony.
"So now, all you fools, have another glass of , strong delusion presented by the likes of Aron "Ra" Nelson. Bottoms up!"
DBP
anon said: "This odd meme of trying to paint non-religion as a religion is like calling "off" a TV channel or "not playing golf" a sport."
We all, including Aronra, suffer from self-rightuosnes at times.
DBP
"As a whole, the universe is completely unfit for life (at least our carbon-based kind)."
Aww man, ..you're bringing me down Professor!
Hey, Anon 9:19, thanks for the poster! I printed a copy for my computer nook and e-mailed an attachment to my son.
3:18, the ticket is to remain young and relevant. Nature has a way of obsoleting old folk in the final years before they surrender their places on the planet. You can prolong the process by tapping into youthful energy and ideas, as Bernie Sanders and others, or you can just fade into insignificance like the people leading the ACOGs who are still plugged into HWA and the Victorian era. Maybe if some of the COGlodyte leaders looked and acted more contemporarily, they could actually reach people. I mean an ear ring on Gerald Flurry, shirt sleeve tattoos on Dave Pack, or Rod Meredith driving a Cobrajet Mustang would hardly be silver bullets, but at least they wouldn't look like they still idolized the 1940s (Oops, forgot! Betty Scarborough got in trouble for singing a 1940s song!)
BB
A few thoughts:
http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/08/destination-truth-road-goes-ever-on.html
BB Yep, Bernie Sanders has tapped into new ideas such as 1917 Bolshevism.
Yes!
It is wise to become well rooted. For some, one of those ways is to see these videos. They're not for everyone, though.
Do I suggest that becoming "well rooted" means a person should waste time viewing asshole Christian TV preachers, or going to a crazy 'Promise Keepers' rally?
NO!
It's interesting how some people suggest that others look into cesspools to find diamonds.
I'm not one of his fans, 1:45. Just observing that somehow he's been able to do a better job of reaching people with his (antiquated) message than the ACOGs do with theirs.
BB
I listened to others, but AR's '10 commandments' video was really good. It's to be clicked at HERE!
ashley froud said...
Dennis' fluted clovis point was made in a counterfeit antiquities fab shop.
Ashley, I'll vote for you in the 'new to Banned yet still super brainwashed!" category.
Ha! Very funny, Ashley! I believe you don't really believe that silliness, and I think that you're just teasing us by portraying a super-nutty person.
Job well done, Ashley!
ashley froud, because of your recent comments, I will no longer be recommending you for the Christian COG version of "The Bachelor" , because you have "sinkded vary low"
If you act righteously for awhile, it's possible that on the show, an animatronic Herbie will come to your rescue and rape your daughters while screaming, "DOROTHY!!!"
?August 16, 2016 at 11:05 AM?
If you keep thinking about all things that HWA would most likely do, stop it! You are going to rotten your heart and get brain cancer.
Anonymous at 11:17 AM said...“This odd meme of trying to paint non-religion as a religion is like calling 'off' a TV channel or 'not playing golf' a sport.”
Funny that you should mention that.
“Off” is one of my favorite television channels, and I love the relaxation of not playing golf.
Retired Prof said...“Maybe it was intended to be pure, pristine. The biotic scum that covers the earth and perhaps a few other planets could be a contaminant, like the mold that recently appeared on the shady side of my house after a series of rains.”
Yes, the “scum of the earth” (such as evilutionists) are a contaminant, but if you keep your mind pure and pristine, you will not be a part of that and will not add to the problem.
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