Tuesday, November 15, 2016

Dennis Confronts Dave Pack: "If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas..."

NOTE:  Due to the ongoing melt down of Dave Pack it has been suggested that this post be reposted.

If I Ever Go Off Into Strange or Weird Ideas...

 "I want to make a statement about...me...now, if I became deceived, I will never tell you what I'm going to tell you now...I am telling you  if I go off into strange ideas,  misconduct, rebellion, you name it, don't follow me. I want to tell you that now, because if I start doing that I'm gonna try to get you to follow me! I'm gonna come to you and tell you it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z. Do you understand what I'm saying? Listen to me now, when I tell you don't follow me if I go off into weird ideas, or if I get off into other things that are total absolutely unscriptural conduct, because if I do I'm gonna paint it with a different face and try to get you to follow me. Do you understand what I'm saying brethren? Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it...And  I hope you'll remember it well enough to quote it right back to me...But I'll tell you what, I'm not going anywhere."
David C Pack
December 12, 1998

Dennis Diehl - EzineArticles Expert AuthorActually Dave, I totally understand what you are saying and just did quote it back to you as instructed.  That time you foresaw has arrived and indeed, you are uttering both strange and weird things about yourself.  If I read all the letters sent to you by former employees and members correctly, you also have tendencies to act in unscriptural ways but I am pretty sure you don't see that side of this coin.  What chance is there you will see the trail of tears you have left for decades when you are struggling to figure out just what "filthy rags" you, as the fulfillment of Haggai's Joshua the High Priest might have to remove.  The idea that all you can come up with is that you sinned not leaving the splinters soon enough or not starting your own church soon enough is...well...a strange and weird idea to say the least

So the time has come to tell you that your current ideas about just where you fit in the Biblical scheme of things has come.  It is time to tell you, as instructed, that your ideas about you being foretold in the minor prophet Haggai or Zephaniah is truly a strange and weird idea.  I have to admit, you do follow the A, B, C and X,Y and Z format in explaining this ridiculous concept as you predicted so at least thanks for sticking to the format so we could recognize it and call you out on it as instructed.

First of all, you have been in "rebellion" for as long as I have known you.  Now I understand one man's rebellion is another man's faithfulness, but let's face it...you have never done well working for anyone that told you what to do.  Men such as yourself simply can't take instructions, correction or advice.  I have chatted with a few of your close staff who confirm that you taking advice is not a strong point.  It tends to enrage you.  I recall your sojourn in New York City where you were sent to work under Mr.___________ as your one last chance to get your team player skills together.  I asked Mr. _________ how you were doing working for and with others but not in charge and not having the final say.  He said you were doing fine for now and what you needed to do to get through it, but when you were ever back on your own you'd fall back into all that you have since fallen back into.  Now that man was a Prophet for sure.  He said, "People don't change much."  And this is true. Some get worse.

The idea that you are foretold in the scriptures some 2500 years after the fact is simply weird and strange.  It is also a lie. You are truly the master of making a scripture mean what it never meant.  From declaring that "houses" in Haggai is really splinters to your nutcase idea that all the tithes of the splinters need to flow unto you because it belongs to you is simply insane.  Ok, I mean strange and weird to stick to your terminology and what we had to look out for in you.   You even have the amount calculated I imagine because you know as well as I do that it has never been about the numbers with you , but it really is.  Remember redrawing church boundries so you could have a larger congregation without actually having new folk come along?  I do.  The minister next door only found out when the member showed him the letter telling him he has been switched to your congregation .  Kinda strange and weird even back then.
But back to the current strange and weird ideas.  It was kinda neat to see how you explained that HWA knew he was at first a type of Zerubbabel (which means 'born of confusion" btw) and in the next paragraph he knew he was Zerubbabel and not just any type, and finally ended up not knowing who Joshua the High Priest would be.  Funny, I recall it being plainly GTA according the HWA when he was hoping Ted would get rid of his filthy rags and return to his duties in the church.  Gerald Waterhouse was real big on GTA and the filthy rag theory.  So in a very short time, you evolved HWA's thinking back then to match and pave the way for you now.  Strange and weird huh?   The more bad news is that HWA also was never spoken of in any scripture but I know you'd not believe such a thing.  I mean what's the chance that out of billions, it is YOU?  I hesitate to say that since Haggai was never written for much into the future as you think.  Prophets, real or imagined, sane or insane do not write about events outside their perceived lifetimes.  What good would that be?  I could go back to the Book of Lamentations and see my entire experience with WCG foretold and how I would evolve and endeavor to help the brain dead in the COGs wake up a bit but I don't have the energy.  Jeremiah lived a rather melancholy life so it would be stretching his intent I think. 

Loved your phrase,  ""I want to make a statement about...me..."  Making statements about you has never been difficult .  Once you see yourself in the Bible how can it be any different?.  Of the 24 times the Apostle Paul is referred to as an Apostle, he calls himself one 22 of those and Luke, his side kick, the other 2.  Other than that , no one thought so or at least mentioned it.  Kinda like yourself.  Kinda like Gerald Flurry with whom you have much in common.  The taking of title in the WCG slivers is just short of astounding.  Where do you guys come from?

"I wanna talk about me!"
"No other epistle author in the Bible wrote like Paul. This would be true on a number of levels, but one aspect is of particular interest when we are considering how Paul views himself. He had a way of drawing attention to himself with his usage of personal pronouns. When it comes to how often he uses words like, "I", "me", "my", or "mine", the overall rate in his epistles is almost three times that of his next closest rival."

And so it is with yourself.  Please don't take any comparison with the Apostle Paul as a compliment from me.  Or you don't know me very well on this issue.  

Now I am betting you are saying  "...it doesn't apply, it doesn't mean me, no, no, no, no, no, no, it's OK to follow me because ABCD and XY and Z."   But, we're on to you and this is the very circumstance you said could come up and you told us all just how to react. I am doing you the very favor you begged the brethren to watch out for. 

I am just reminding your, so far, brain dead followers that you said it and that you would do everything in your power to convince them you aren't getting into strange and weird ideas.  Well, you are and you have and it's time to pony up as they say.  

You continued to say concerning youself..." Please remember that, because I promise you that if I become deceived, I'll forget it, and I'll want you to forget it..."  

Well...forget it you have and I imagine you really wish we'd all forget it too just as you said.  I have to say, this prophecy of how you would be and act when you got all strange and weird was really right on.  Since you are incapacitated in memory and bound and determined to see yourself as Joshua the High Priest or whatever as spoken of by the Prophet Haggai, it is our job to keep the balance as yours has completely left you.  You can't get upset as you told the brethren to be on the look out for just this kind of deviance from the norm.  And so we do.  

It is not necessary to go through Haggai with you or anyone else to prove that the Bible does not speak of you, you are not any Joshua the really spoken of High Priest and all your detailed analysis of the book is not really what the book was all about.  They don't call it anal--ysis for nothing Dave.  You weave a great yarn, but a yarn it is and it won't take long for it to unwind as did the machinations of the not really the Two Witnesses Ron Weinland or the not really "That Prophet" Gerald Flurry.  Geez...how many times do the WCG leftovers have to learn this lesson?

I drove through Wadsworth this past week and sincerely thought to stop in and have a chat but I was told you'd call the police and I don't have time for that.  I guess you don't want to debate after asking you three times huh?  

At any rate, I thought it was time to quote you back to you as you asked for such a time as this.  Your foresight and insight into how you would behave in such a case of going weird and strange was very well spoken.  I'm proud of you for speaking so plainly before the time of the actual weird and strange beliefs and I am thankful the Internet preserved your prophetic words for so long.  

When you recover your senses, you will thank me.  We can hug and make up because that which was lost will have been found  and your sanity will, like Nebuchadnezzar ,have returned.  I hope it does not take seven years but it is what it is and will be what it will be.  I'm here for ya when your mind comes back. 

In closing, a word about your very last statement.  "But I'm not going anywhere."  I'm a pretty intuitive guy.  I know what people mean between the lines when they write or speak.  "But I'm not going anywhere" is meant to calm the troops after such dramatic statements.  It is actually a subconscious ploy , whether you know it or not, to get to say all this dramatic "don't follow me if I get weird and strange, but of course I will never get weird or strange," so now you can now actually start getting weird and strange and they won't think it is weird or strange..  After all, you just told them how you would behave and then assured them you'd never actually do that and then you get to do it and they don't get it.  Brilliant!  It's like the tassels and ribbons that warriors used to put on the ends of the spears.  In battle they would wave them around and it was just natural for the human eye to follow the pretty ribbon and tassel as it was waved in their face. Well it was pretty until the actual spear point was shoved into one's chest.  Distractions and disclaimers are the tassels and ribbons on the end of a very dangerous spear.  

Anyway...I just thought I'd quote you back to you for such a time as this in your thinking.  I really don't want to see anyone else get hurt with religion done badly and mental problems being mistaken for spirituality and truth.  Was that harsh?

Warm regards

contact Dennis at: denniscdiehl@AOL.com


Joe Moeller said...

Say this fast five times...

David Pack picked a pack of pickled peppers...

A pack of pickled peppers David Pack picked...

If David Pack picked a pack of pickled peppers...

Where's the pack of pickled peppers that David Pack picked?

Makes more sense than what David Pack has been writing lately doesnt it?? !!

Joe Moeller
Cody, WY

Anonymous said...

There was another time that Dave gave a sermon, sometime in late 2000 or early 2001. He said something to the effect that if he ever tried to claim he was an apostle, to call him on it, and not to follow him. He is almost like the apostle Paul, where Paul said that what he shouldn't do, he does. Pack says what he won't do, and then does it. He is such a liar.

I am back "Mr. Pack"!

Head Usher said...

Yes, it's good to keep this in perspective. In context you realize this is not the beginning of Dave's descent into madness, but just the strangest & weirdest idea in a chain of progressively stranger & weirder ideas, the first of which came from Herbert Armstrong, claiming to be an apostle and leading the one and only "true church" in the whole wide world. There was nothing true about any of that.

I'm not sure if this came from the same sermon or not, according to E&SN it was in a sermon entitled, "Where the Vultures are Gathered," obviously given at around the same time, in which he is quoted as saying:
"I'm not going to claim to behold some high office, or I am some kind of 'secret apostle' in waiting. Baloney. I don't think that way."
Okay, Dave, great. Glad to hear that you don't think that way. Because that would certainly be baloney. It would be strange & weird if you were to go off and start thinking that way. Too bad you started off in Herbert Armstrong's fertilizer of strange & weird ideas to begin with.

In Pack's sermon, dated February 26, 2005, "21st Century Apostle" he contradicts himself saying:
"The responsibilities Christ expects me to do...While I have apostolic authority, ... Mr. Armstrong was a Apostle. Yes brethren I hold that office. I do... If the highest office in Restored Church of God is not an apostle, then I was not sent by Christ."
Uh oh! Baloney attack! That's right, Dave, it's not and you're not. Nor is your church the one and only "true church." And neither was Herbert Armstrong. He also went off into strange & weird ideas. To say that you're an apostle is both strange & weird. Unfortunately this would not be the first or the last time Dave would break his word. And the idea that "God backs me even if I am wrong" is also strange & weird, not to mention being a ploy to justify and sanctify your abuse of other people.

Then on Oct 27 and Nov 3, 2007, in his two-part "Clarion Call" sermon, Pack goes off into more strange & weird ideas. He says only the members of RCG will be given an "internal signal" from God to flee, just before the end of days, thus saving their lives—but only if they stay:
"It's okay because you're guaranteed to get the signal if you don't leave the church, you don't leave God's government, you remain a living stone, waiting, enduring patiently doing God's Work. You're guaranteed to know."
Gotta say, Dave, strange & weird. But also a brilliant piece of mind control to get people to stay.

Then in Part II, we find out why he wants them to stay so bad. He is just about to demand all their financial assets be turned over to him:
"If you hold those riches, I'm telling you, you trust in them! [chastising voice]...I am charged by God, reading this verse to charge all of you out there in the Work, in the church, who have assets. You have a home that's paid off? [yelling] Go get a big chunk out of your home and put your money where your mouth is and send it here! And I'm not talking one, two, three thousand either! How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, a hundred thousand dollars—Go do it!."
Strange, weird, abusive, but also predictable.

Now with this whole stranger & weirder Zerubbabel & Joshua comedy skit you've been doing, you've really outdone yourself. I think you've gone beyond strange & weird into batshit crazy.

Painful Truth said...

When Pack made those statements he was trying to hold back his madness. Now that it has overtaken him death and destruction await for him and his followers.

This is sheer madness. Can you think of another leader in the 7th day franchise that lost it?

Anonymous said...

bat shit crazy...yes...that's it! Bat shit crazy! lol

With all due respect to bats


Anonymous said...

David Pack and Gerald Flurry really do deserve each other.

Flurry's gated private parking area in Edmond has room for two cars. If only Pack would have prostrated himself on the bare floor, in the early years of the PCG, the two could've been boozesom buddies.

Corky said...

I agree with Head Usher, Dave Pack has gone beyond "strange or weird ideas".

Looking back, a lot of HWA's teachings went beyond strange and weird ideas too but Dave Pack has taken weird to a whole new level of insanity.

Byker Bob said...

Looks like I'm not the only one who has been inspired to read the book of Haggai as a result of Dave Pack's latest farce.

It appears that Dave has taken a page from Flurry's book. What he is doing with Haggai is similar to what Flurry did with Malachi, designating himself as "that prophet", etc.

If we were evaluating these as if they were sales strategies formulated by regional managers in secular companies, I would have to believe that such coercive church building strategies will generate revenue to the extent to which these guys are successful in selling them, and in getting people to drink the Kool Aid. However, prior to buying into these, a person needs to take a serious look at the history of such a strategy in the hands of Herbert W. "Elijah" Armstrong. When the alleged prophecies came to nothing, some who had trusted began to see HWA as having been like the worst of the Wall Street swindlers. In fact, the whole receivership issue was part and parcel of this, and was an attempt to force fiscal accountability, and truth in advertising. But, HWA never missed a beat and such corruption continues to this day!

One might also visit the Painful Truth website, dig into the Ambassador Reports archives, and look for the materials on "Dave Pack's Reign of Terror". I can't think of a better character reference than that for those who might be unknowingly considering a life ruining experience.

Cliffs Notes: Haggai presents a challenge to complete the work of building the temple following the Babylonian exile. Haggai chides the Jews and Israelites and asks them how they can possibly live in comfort in their own homes that they have built or rebuilt, while God's house still lies in shambles.
It is a call to prioritization, a calling for zeal and sacrifice. Clearly, Pack sees HWA in the Zerubbabel role, and he has clearly stated that he sees himself in the Joshua son of Shealtiel role, with the temple apparently being analogous to Armstrongism, and the job being to restore Armstrongism. Unfortunately, Pack fails to contemplate that Armstrong was a total failure, and that his legacy and empire have come to epitomize the words of Gamaliel. Dave has set himself up to replicate this failure, devastating the lives of any hapless individuals who might allow him to take control of their lives.

There is no reasoning with Dave. Dennis' exhortation and challenge will fall on deaf ears. However, those of us who believe can most certainly pray for God's intervention, and His protection for those who are in position to become Pack's victims. A sound mind is not the mind of a victim!


Anonymous said...

"Can you think of another leader in the 7th day franchise that lost it?

Easier to try to think of one that hasn't. Sorry, I'm drawing a blank.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, Dave. I've just undertaken a thorough online reading of Haggai and concluded that my cats have a far more credible claim to the roles of Zerubbabel and Joshua than you or Herb. Read for yourself:


BRB - I think Zerubbabel wants his litter changed, or there might be earthquakes.

Byker Bob said...

Bad pathology always worsens with time. That is what we are in fact witnessing in the behavioral patterns of these predators.


Douglas Becker said...

My cat is more clear on the topic of tithing.

It is time to get his booklet: Ending My Financial Worries!

BTW: Excellent job Dennis -- best yet!

Black Ops Mikey said...

Unfortunately, my cat moved the article from 3 years ago and you can read it here now.

Comment: It's time to face it -- British Israelism is a strange weird idea and as we've covered before, anyone who espouses and teaches it is a kook. This is not negotiable.

None of the Armstrongist leaders deserve one shred of respect because their "Key to Prophecy" is a lie, their prophecies fail and failed prophecy is one of the proofs that British Israelism is wrong.

David Pack has just demonstrated that if you believe a stupid kook idea long enough, you will become a mental hospital candidate.

Hoss said...

In an FOT sermon, Rod Meredith reminisced his early years at AC. One story was HWA telling the theology class (Rod, Herman Hoeh and a few others) that if he (HWA) went off track and started teaching nonsense that those in the class would blindly follow him. Rod said he put up his hand, and HWA responded, "Rod, I know you wouldn't!"

In Bob Thiel's blow by blow account of leaving the LCG, he said he was given the task of telling Rod if he "started pulling punches" doctrinaly. Bob wrote that he objected - maybe being told to be a snitch takes away the fun.

Anonymous said...

Actually, British-Israelism was a official doctrine of the Anglican church in the nineteenth century. Millions believed in it. Nothing new under the sun, Herbie didn't think that up.

Anonymous said...

For a moment, I thought Cowboy Joe was back!

nck said...


Nothing strange about British Israelism.

Just a protestant reaction to sudden undeserved dominance and world power.
This can't be of the unworthy doing of a protestant. So it must have been a gift of God.

A religious theory to support an ideology. A bit like Zionism for the Jews.


Anonymous said...

Nck, so millions were wrong whilst nck and others here are right.
You are hardly impartial. If British -Israelism is correct, many people here are in deep, deep poo.
Did I say that they are in very deep poo?
Yes I did, they are in deep, deep, deep poo.

nck said...

No I'm not saying I am right.

I am saying that the more I look for proof the less proof one can find. (especially on a genetic level.)

What I did find was that the religious leaders of the day were bewildered about the rise to World Power of their race. They found 16th century protestant earlier theories on how God delivered the protestant nations LIKE ISRAEL out of the Egypt of the Holy Roman Empire. So blessing bestowed by God that is what the protestant british doctrine was going to be.

It is a religious backing of an ideology that backed up a political reality brought about by the inventiveness of a people, the resulting comparative advantage because of that inventiveness and the Enfield rifle.

So hugely important theory to understand the mindset of the Anglo Saxon elites and rulers of the world to this day. From Rhodes to Rhodes scolars. Hugely important to understand the relative decline of that status of world power and return to normalcy with China as the dominant economic power and more important to identify modern and new "elite movements and see what ideology propels their brand.

For instance Jared Kushner's rabbi expects Jesus' return soon. So I won't laugh at your preparations for WWIII. And if it doesn't transpire you at least learned something new and again I will not be laughing but rejoice in the continuation of history its peoples and the ideologies that make them tick.