It has been a hard issue for historians to deal with the biblical story of the Exodus and the fact that not one single archaeological bit of evidence has ever been found to support it. A million plus people travelling 40 years in the desert and never discarding a single thing that was broken or worn out, no food byproducts have ever been found, no human latrine fields, no remnant of idols, no ashes from the burning fires in the tabernacle area, nothing.
Fret no longer! A COG member has solved the riddle! Sit back and be amazed!
This is from someone we have not heard from in a long time, Robert Petry.
Here is his revelation on the matter:
There you have it!Because this was a DIVINE migration, it should be no surprise to real scholars, that there would be no artifacts of note, nor a need for them. Just reading the Bible story itself clearly explains these things. But, “scholars” are only physical minded, they cannot conceive that the DIVINE POWER behind the Exodus is real. They just pretend to believe that, if at all. Now, what does the Bible show about this?Well, it’s very clear…1. Their clothing, shoes, and trappings never wore out. Ergo, nothing to throw away.
2. Their shelters never wore out. Ergo, nothing to throw away.
3. Utensils and other things never wore out. Ergo, nothing to discard.
4. All food supplies were DIVINELY given. For instance, Manna — here today, gone tomorrow. Quail, masses fly in, and disappear. Ergo, what’s left to find.
5. Certain mass events where one might expect artifacts to remain, left none. Why? The ground opened and swallowed them up. Nothing left behind to find.
31 comments:
I had read one time that when an ancient king lost a battle, he would go back out to the battleground to clean up the mess so that there is no evidence that he was defeated. This is like a murderer trying to clean up the crime scene. Then, I imagine, he would get his public relations department up and running to rewrite history. Sort of like when our presidents leave office and write their memoirs, they want to make themselves look as good as they can on the first draft of their presidential history.
Oops! With this argument, Mr. Petty has also proved the truth of the Book of Mormon .
One would expect that at least a million burial sites would be there, since only a few who left Egypt lived to enter the promised land.
Thomas Munson
I wonder what happened to all the cigarette packages. Doesn’t the Bible mention different people lighting off a Camel?
BB
Robert Petry was dumb as a rock when I knew him, and he hasn't gained a damn thing in all those years.
One would expect that at least a million burial sites would be there, since only a few who left Egypt lived to enter the promised land.
Thomas Munson
Yep!
Also, Since the Pentateuch was actually written by the Priests in the Babylonian Captivity of the 6th century BCE and by four different perspectives known as JPED (Yahwahist/Priestly/Elohim/Deuteronomist and not by any Moses one could conclude they also knew of the problem of such large numbers in their cultic story and massive pedigree they gave themselves. To remedy the problem you create magic food they don't have to find even though they took all their cattle in the original story, food you don't have to find firewood every day for a million meals plus every day, magic water for a million plus they don't have to carry or find, along with shoes they don't leave in the desert nor clothes they have to make out of materials over 40 years they don't have. It's all magic!
Noted Israeli scholars, Rabbis and Archaeologists will tell anyone who will listen it never happened. The only place it happened in the scriptures.
One of many other problems of logistics is that Israel left Egypt "the self same night." Uh huh....It would take the people in the back of the 1.5 million people march , plus cattle about two weeks before the noticed it was their turn to move ahead in the line. Ever watch the last people running in place for a long time as the 50,000 runners ahead of them start a race? Can you imagine the poor folk in the front of the group getting pushed a few extra miles by all the people behind them who didn't get the word to STOP. lol
Since one had to relieve themselves "outside the camp" that would be a 10 to fifteen mile walk to the edge of the camp depending on how much space each person took up comfortably. By the time you took a dump and got back, you'd have to take another one.
The logistics of the Exodus are simply impossible and only one problem with the story if taken literally.
This UCG reasoning around reality is ridiculous.
"... two weeks before the noticed it was their turn to move ahead in the line"
Not if the line was wider than it was long. But who says there was a line?
".... a 10 to fifteen mile walk to the edge of the camp ..."
Not if the camp was long and narrow.
I once saw pictures on the web of chariot wheels under water, encrusted in coral, said to be at the bottom of the Red Sea.
Manna from heaven is magic. Unless you believe in miracles.
Walking on water is magic. Unless you believe in miracles.
"Nothing left behind to find. "
How convenient.
Nothing left behind to find, how convenient? Do we even know what their route was? Might some of the stuff simply decayed or been scavenged by others over the years. Isn't it a pretty large area of wind swept sand. As for the JEDP hypothesis, there is no proof of that. I think it is just an idea used by skeptics. Yes, there is confirmation bias on the part of believers, but it is also common among the skeptics.
Anon 8:58 PM wrote: "I once saw pictures on the web of chariot wheels under water, encrusted in coral, said to be at the bottom of the Red Sea."
I too saw similar pictures and video of that evidence.
There is available a DVD Videotape, which I purchased years ago, titled:
The Exodus Revealed_Search for the Red Sea Crossing
Produced by: Discovery Media Productions
Distributed by: QUESTAR, INC
P.O. Box 11345 Chicago, IL 60611-0345
Approx. Total Time: 3 hours with extras (Actual movie goes about 1 hour)
ISBN: 1-56855-736-1
www.questar1.com
That address information may not be current, so if interested in the videotape, one should first check on the Internet to see if it is still available.
Also, regarding the pictures, an excellent, very worthwhile, Book exists with title of: The Exodus Case by Dr. Lennart Moller (ISBN: 1568557361). I purchased it from a different source. If desire to order, I suggest you look for best deal using a search on the Internet
Back to the video, FWIIW, I did a partial transcript of comments, regarding the chariot wheels, as follows:
Minutes:Seconds into Video of The Exodus Revealed_Search for the Red Sea Crossing
39:30 The Biblical account of an ocean divided, Israel’s passage to safety and the destruction of Pharaoh’s army defy naturalistic explanation, but if these events did occur, then physical evidence could still lie off of the shore of the Nuweiba Peninsula.
39:50 For more than 20 years divers and explorers from three continents, each intrigued by cues linking the Gulf of Aqaba and the Biblical Yam Suph have come to Nuweiba beach seeking possible evidence of an Israelite crossing.
40:09 Their search focused on the 600 chariots the Bible says were destroyed in the Red Sea.
40:10 Exodus 14:7 “And he took six hundred chosen chariots, and all the chariots of Egypt, and captains over every one of them.”
Exodus 14:8 “And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand.”
40:18 Inscriptions thousands of years old and the few chariots recovered from ancient tombs reveal much about the construction of these legendary vehicles of war.
40:30 Could any of them actually be found on the sea floor off the Nuweiba Peninsula?
40:58 Though the coral complicates any search here, it may have been instrumental in preserving the shapes of ancient artifacts.
41:07 But coral is a living organism that will not begin to grow on a foundation of sand or silt. Instead it must first attach itself to a solid object where it will sometimes conform to the shape of its host.
41:50 During the course of his explorations, Moller observed that the pattern of coral growth at Nuweiba differed from other parts of the Gulf.
42:07 The formations at Nuweiba beach are generally smaller and scattered randomly across the sea floor.
43:25 While most of the possible artifacts found off of the coast of Nuweiba are covered with coral one significant discovery was not.
43:36 It is a wooden, basic, structure of the wheel and it is covered with gold or “electrum.” It’s a mixture of silver and gold and corals have not been able to grow on it. It’s been very well preserved. Although it is very fragile it seems like the wooden content has been dissolved so that you could break it if you would try to remove it.
To be continued…
John
Continuing…
Minutes:Seconds into Video of The Exodus Revealed_Search for the Red Sea Crossing
44:35 And in the Spring of 2,000 the discovery media team lowered a robotic camera into these waters for the first time.
45:04 The robotic camera’s survey revealed many shapes and objects familiar to Moller including coral formations with right-angles, arches, discs and straight shafts fused into larger masses that have the appearance of twisted wreckage.
45:27 We can repeatably see that these strange structures that we are looking for are there, not at one place, but you see them again, and again and again.
45:57 While the robotic camera logged hours of video documentation, Viveka Ponten and other divers on a second research vessel used metal detectors to evaluate specific structures on the sea floor.
46:11 Ponten and her colleagues realized that the wheels of many Egyptian chariots were often reinforced with bronze. They hoped to find evidence of the metal encrusted in coral.
46:24 A scan of this formation indicated a circular metallic pattern around its edge, perhaps evidence of the broken rim of a chariot wheel.
46:37 Other coral formations examined also contained fragments of metal.
46:42 Viveka Ponten’s interest in this research was heightened by a discovery she had made 3 years earlier 8 miles due east of the Nuweiba Peninsula.
46:59 During her stay in Saudi-Arabia Ponten not only searched for Mt. Sinai. She also made several dives in an attempt to document evidence of the Egyptian army on the Saudi side of the Gulf.
47:14 There is like a very shallow sort of land tongue going out in a straight angle towards Nuweiba.
47:40 The scattered irregular coral formations on the Saudi side of Aqaba resembled those previously found off of the Nuweiba Peninsula.
47:52 In the midst of them Ponten photographed this circular object attached to what appears to have been a broken axle or a hub.
48:02 This discovery was significant for two reasons. Ponten had documented the coral encrusted form of a wheel with dimensions similar to ancient Egyptian artifacts directly across from the proposed Nuweiba crossing site.
48:19 Her find also provided independent confirmation of earlier evidence establishing wheel-like formations on both coasts of the Red Sea in accordance with descriptions in the Biblical record.
48:33 Exodus 14:24 “And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,”
Exodus 14:25 “And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.”
48:51 While Egyptian environmental laws prohibit removal of any coral for scientific dating and analysis, photographic evidence may provide a link to the time of the Exodus.
48:09 Scholars have recognized that the design of the chariot wheel can be used to identify specific periods in Egyptian history.
49:20 In the waters of Aqaba it appears that remnants of four and six-spoked wheels have been discovered.
49:29 These designs were used simultaneously only during Egypt’s 18th dynasty and no later than about 1400 B.C., a time frame that coincides closely with the Biblical date of the Exodus.
49:51 The discoveries made between Nuweiba beach and Saudi-Arabia have been fascinating...
John
Thats an old hoax, I'm afraid.
Because I am a scientific minded person I need physical evidence that some event or someone exists or existed. There is no evidence that the exodus actually happened so I don't believe it happened. If there is a God, you would think he would leave tons of evidence that such an important event like the exodus actually happened. I guess we just have to believe that it happened by "faith".
My definition of "faith" is, believing something based on a hunch or because that is the only reason lift to validate a belief devoid of any facts.
It is easy to slip into presumptions about Archaeology. An easy presumption is that there should be abundant evidence of past populations. This is not true. Keep in mind that the entire bone inventory of ancient global human populations from the Pleistocene back into deep history would fit into the back of a pick-up truck.
The Anglo-Saxons invaded the British Isles, no doubt carrying more imperishable artifacts than the ancient Israelites, and scant evidence can be found of this great historical invasion. Sutton Hoo is one of the few examples.
In the area where I live, thousands of ancient Anasazi lived for centuries. The ruins and middens of their villages dot the surrounding mesas and canyons - sites in the thousands. Yet very few burials, perhaps, around a dozen, have ever been found. Nobody knows where thy buried their people. Note that this once densely populated area is miniscule compared to Sinai.
And who knows what will be found in the future. In 2010, a little piece of a finger bone was found in Siberia. The chances of it being found must have been infinitesimal. The DNA was extracted and sequenced and based on this, a new ancient race, called Denisovans was discovered. A connection was made to their modern descendants that could not have been seen before.
It is not surprising that there has been no discovery of artifacts related to the Exodus. Archaeology deals with small bits of evidence found under varying conditions of preservation and in many cases discovered by sheer luck.
On the other hand, the Exodus account has passed through the hands of many scribes and translators and I would not be surprised if there is some departure from the original account in detail while the principle has been preserved.
Ed, faith is forcing oneself to believe what is not evidently true nor will there ever be evidence to confirm it but is something that is needed to be believed no matter what.
"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. For by it the elders obtained a good report. Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear"
Which is another way of saying . "Faith is substance of things we hope are true based on absolutely no evidence that it is true."
How Lot got into the Faith Hall of Fame is beyond me. "Please rape my virgin daughters ( or sacrifice them as some suspect) but don't embarrass me by hurting my guests." Most cultures also would not call a father tricking his son up the mountain to slit his throat and reducing him to a burned out roast in sacrifice for his god the best example of sanity either.
But that's just me...
H.L. Mencken defined faith as "illogical belief in the occurrence of the impossible."
While the author of Hebrews may have needed faith to understand how the worlds were framed, we don't have to rely on that today.
All ancient texts up to the Bello Gallico for some reason greatly exagerated numbers of populations and tribes. I'm not sure about the million or 40 year time frame.
There seems to be evidence of a sudden abondenment of the city of Avaris by the "working population".
The bible speaks of a multitude of peoples later to become political units or tribes through intermingling with those that left Egypt. Egyptian mix most of them.
Including the high official buried in Avaris in a single tomb depicted with a multicolar coat. It seems that tomb was empty after the Avaris workers left.
Unfortunately we cannot enter Saudi Arabia very easy but there ate some pretty intetesting finds and structures in the arabian part of the desert leading up to several nabatean cities.
I believe Petra before the nabateans was inhabited by the Chief clan of the Edomites while the Israelites were subservient to that ancient strain who always inhabited Seir.
Thats why Moaes his successor had to kneel and remove his shoes when confronted eith THE CAPTAIN OF THE HOST OF THE LORD. Who clearly was a man and clearly misrepresented to be an angel or heavenly creature.
This was an army leader with priestly duties with the authority to declare ground HOLY.
Perhaps he was Deborahs grandfather who also clearly is a remarkable WOMAN.of exceptional authority also a servant of the High Place at Seir (Petra).
All exceptional examples of the ancient Edomite Hebrew religion that the Jerusalem temple priests did not manage to erase from history. Not even by adapting the narrative to a tribal Israelite story.
The Israelite wanderers had to pay hommage to these enigmatic figures while passing their land toward the jebusite strongholds and requeat the support of the special forces of The Captain - Priest.
In the Ambassador - Rothchild digs at Tel Hazor they found evidence of the destruction of that city at the time the tribes were supposed to cross from Jordan. The we see the erection of Israelite altars at the high places mirroring the humonguous one at the high place at Petra.
Just my take.
Nck
What some here like Dennis are calling faith, is more accurately called mysticism.
I have a better explanation, one that the cog's can agree on.
"A flying saucer took them away to another planet where they lived for 40 years."
Why not? It's just as good as Petry's lame ass answer.
The Hyksos brought horse and chariot to Egypt. Genesis mentions chariots several times so Joseph cannot be earlier than Hyksos rule.
Anyone notices that the bible calls Potiphar "an Egyptian". Clearly superfluous remark if the Egyptians had been in power at the time.
Ah yes. The abandonment of Avaris (Ish Avar (son of the Hebrew) by the Hyksos Asiatic tribes.
Boy did the Egyptians hate that lot.
nck
People tend to greatly oversimplify the whole science versus faith debate. There is a lot of fake evidence on both sides. The big joke is a lot of people on both sides who fall for fake evidence time after time.
Everybody knows about fake religion but what about fake science? Let me give you just ONE of many examples of fake science. One that anybody with half their wits could figure out if they bothered to check into it.
I can show piles and piles of evidence from scientists who say that global warming is fake but I'd bet 80% of the people wouldn't even look at it. They think it is science because the lying political media told them so. News is warfare by other means. They have an agenda to control who produces what and how much gets produced, so they need carbon-trading to impose quotas. Many of the people promoting it as science know it is fake but they don't care. They think the ends justifies the means. You are the victim, and they don't care about you. The public is always being played like a fiddle.
And yet glaciers and the polar ice caps continue to melt, the sea is warming and rising, permafrost is defrosting releasing super amounts of methane which is a more devastating greenhouse gas than CO2, and all of these things are measurable. Oh well. With each day that passes, global climate change is becoming more difficult to deny. No point in even arguing over something that will soon be perfectly obvious to everyone except Rush and his diehard dittoheads. It’s just a shame that something of such magnitude would become a Democrat vs Republican issue. By the way, the 80% of the scientists are not on your side. It’s only the hired industry scientists that are of similar kinship to the ones hired by the tobacco industry continue to deny what is happening. Trump’s people are even censoring the NASA website these days.
BB
Faith can be mistaken for secular belief if given a surface appraisal. Regarding secular belief, some scientists believe in a multiverse and our universe is one single member in that set. This is sheer speculation and there is no hard evidence of a multiverse but it does not violate anything we know of the principles of physics at this time. It is belief based on a plausible foundation. And this supports the Anthropic Principle.
Some people, notably Christians, make decisions that factor in a belief in the afterlife. Abraham did this when he followed the instructions to sacrifice Isaac. I do not believe that NDE experiences have validity so that means that there is no empirical evidence that there is an afterlife from my perspective. My belief in the afterlife is based on a Biblical package that I believe has validity. I believe, with no proof, that this faith was authored by Christ. I have other supports for this but the origin of this faith is ineffable.
So, we have a scientist that believes in something that cannot be proved but results from imaginative cosmology and a desire to explain the inexplicable. And then there is me. I have a belief that I think is a gift from God. To outside observers, the scientist and I are both speculators in the arcane.
Belief is not inherently a flaw that attaches to the Christian faith. It is found through human life and the scientist and I are both believers - just in a different way. I doubt that I will ever join the Church of Hawking.
11:03
There is hardly any sane person on earth denying climate change and no one who has travelled a bit.
I would have let you speak freely if you would not be sure about climate change induced by human behavior. Then you would at least have people willing to discuss with you.
The change is all over the world 80% of the world population is experiencing it. Extreme draught in Mongolia, permafrost melting in Siberia, Islands in Pacific disappearing because of rising water. Etc etc etc I have seen it all, we have no need of your proofs.
Your point about control of production is ridiculous. Even in the Gulf States the gas pumps pumping the oil are being replaced by solar because solar is cheaper.
I m sorry you are going to have to dump Trump, next election, because of his lies regarding rhe return of the old economy or fall behind in the new circular model of production. Perhaps it is too late and the US will be broke at that time because of the fantastical tax plan leaving no money or incentive to renew and change the economy. Focus wrong! Be the change man, its not too late for you. Google "circular" and make a buck instead of waiting for production to return.
Nck
Assuming they werent back-writing those details (like chariots) into the story much later. Josephs story also contains reference to silver coins in use in Egypt, yet as far as we know that did not occur until much later.
Be sure to read Immanuel Velikovky's "Worlds in Collision" forced off the MacMillian label to the less prestigious "Dell Publications" in the 1950s....terrible science but terrific elucidation of Egyptian history!
"According to the biblical account, the children of Israel wandered in the desert and mountains of the Sinai peninsula, moving around and camping in different places, for a full forty years. Even if the number of fleeing Israelites (given in the text as six hundred thousand) is wildly exaggerated or can be interpreted as representing smaller units of people, the text describes the survival of a great number of people under the most challenging conditions. Some archaeological traces of their generation-long wandering in the Sinai should be apparent. However, except for the Egyptian forts along the northern coast, not a single campsite or sign of occupation from the time of Ramesses II and his immediate predecessors and successors has ever been identified in Sinai. And it has not been for lack of trying. Repeated archaeological surveys in all regions of the peninsula, including the' mountainous area around the traditional site of Mount Sinai, near Saint Catherine's Monastery, have yielded only negative evidence: not even a single sherd, no structure, not a single house, no trace of an ancient encampment. One may argue that a relatively small band of wandering Israelites cannot be expected to leave material remains behind. But modern archaeological techniques are quite capable of tracing even the very meager remains of hunter-gatherers and pastoral nomads all over the world. Indeed, the archaeological record from the Sinai peninsula discloses evidence for pastoral activity in such eras as the third millennium BCE and the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods. There is simply no such evidence at the supposed time of the Exodus in the thirteenth century BCE. The conclusion—that the Exodus did not happen at the time and in the manner described in the Bible—seems irrefutable when we examine the evidence at specific sites where the children of Israel were said to have camped for extended periods during their wandering in the desert (Numbers 33) and where some archaeological indication—if present—would almost certainly be found. According, to the biblical narrative, the children of Israel camped at Kadesh-barnea for thirty eight of the forty years of the wanderings. The general location of this place is clear from the description of the southern border of the land of Israel in Numbers 34. It has been identified by archaeologists with the large and well-watered oasis of Ein el Qudeirat in eastern Sinai, on the border between modern Israel and Egypt. The name Kadesh was probably preserved over the centurles in the name of a nearby smaller spring called Ein Qadis. A small mound with the remains of a Late Iron Age fort stands at the center of this oasis. Yet repeated excavations and surveys throughout the entire area have not provided even the slightest evidence for activity in the Late Bronze Age, not even a single sherd left by a tiny fleeing band of frightened refugees. Ezion-geber is another place reported to be the camping place of the children of Israel. Its mention in other places in the Bible a later port town on the northern tip of the Gulf of Aqaba has led to its identification by archaeologists at a mound located on the modern border between Israel and Jordan, halfway between the towns of Eilat and Aqaba. Excavations there in the years 1938-1940 revealed impressive Late Iron Age remains, but no trace whatsoever of Late Bronze occupation. From the long list of encampments in the wilderness, Kadesh-barnea and Ezion-geber are the only ones that can safely be identified, yet they revealed no trace of the wandering Israelites."
—Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology’s New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts.
I go with what science tell us. I keep an open mind when people argue that the pre exodus city of pi Ramesses was actually Avaris while later scribes used the modern name of later date. Dating of events also seems a point of discussion.
Other theories have two Exodi 200 years apart.
From a literary perspective the 15 years in England after WWII could be described as a sojourn by the local population. While in reality they inhabited the land rebuilding it in poor circumstance.
I think most ancient stories have some root of truth or historical basis. If it happened the way described, a coral reef will not do.
Although it gives perspectives on how landscapes and landbridges may have changed over time.
I mean the native Americans did walk across Bering, which by modern observation might seem difficult until one fills the gap with ice. Interesting stuff.
Nck
I had a very mind opening chat with Finkelstein alone at picnic table at Megiddo. He has scoured the Sinai for decades for the Exodus, Moses, Abraham and Solomon yo no avail. He also has doubts about David as described in scripture
Yes, we should be thankful for the relentless and uncompromising nature if Finkelsteins work. This is absolutely necessary.
I am just glad there are types who are willing to put a spade in Hissarlik after reading mythical stories and discover Troy. Or find Nineveh or whatever "mythical" cities that only were known through mythical stories just a bit more than hundred years ago.
Until real proof is found I do lean to the position that figures like Moses are "compounded" personae from more than one figure.
I do like extremely controversial David Rohl, who by changing the dating of events suddenly found in the amarna letters a lot of complaining to the pharao by local chieftains about this insurgent terrorist making life difficult for the Philistine garrisons.
No his name was not David. I just like the fit with "lion man" the challenger from the hilltribes. Please pharaoh send help. But it wont come since Egypt is weak during another time frame, causing the hill cities to reach relative autonomy for a little while coinciding with the "davidic kingdom" narrative.
Thank God for scientific discourse. Finkelstein is a fanatic, albeit a necessary balancer of the Mazar and Yigal Yadin, school.
The only ones I vehemently oppose are the Palestinians in charge of the temple Mount. They are unscientific horrible criminals who have deliberately destroyed as much as possible on the mount.
Quite unlike Finkelstein who likes to be extremely straight in his conclusions. Which in a way is also politically charged as anything archeological in Israel.
Nck
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