According to Ron Weinland, when God screwed up his timing in 2008 and 2012, he changed the meaning of the word "day" to not 24 hour period of time, but a 50-day long period. Ordinary days became "prophetic" days.
It is always fun to watch Church of God false prophets back peddle after their "sure word" predictions fail, as they have consistently done for over 80 some years now. That has never stopped our current crop of prophets.
Today, COG prophets just spin their failures into "God has delayed his timing" or some other silly excuses.
Take Ron Weinland's recent failures as an example:
As mentioned, the “prophetic day” God had determined for 2012 as being the first possible date for Christ’s coming was the literal one-day period that would have been on Pentecost of that year.
For all of the reasons being stated in this chapter, God judged that seven additional years be granted to mankind before the final stages of the end-time should commence, and that Pentecost of 2019 would be the next date set for Christ’s return to this earth. It will be on that day that he will once again stand upon the Mount of Olives as scripture foretells. In making this change, God has also made a change in the duration for which that last “prophetic day” is to be fulfilled. Instead of that period being defined as a literal one-day period as it was before 2012, God is now defining that “prophetic day” as 50 actual days.
On the day that Jesus Christ begins his return to this earth, he will become manifest above the atmosphere of this earth, and after this, God will then begin a process of pouring out those plagues. Rather than pouring all of them out in a single day, God will now do so throughout the period of 50 literal days. Yet just before these plagues begin to be poured out, the 144,000 will be resurrected.
47 comments:
If you believe Ron Weinland, then neither he nor God can be trusted to know what they are talking about. The obvious response, then, is to ignore them both.
Weinland is so whacky , he almost makes David Koresh sound logical!
Surely, he must have some obscure thing in the Bible to back that up. Otherwise, he just pulled it out of his nether regions, like his other pronouncements. I used to fall for nonsense similar to that, but at least I had the book of Daniel and the travesty called the Book of Revelation to go to for supposed backup. At least, I had enough sanity left to realize it was all BS back there in the mid-seventies. Like so many other things, we shared those illusions with the JWs. They expected "the end" in 1975 too. At least, they didn't fragment all to hell afterward though. I had to boot them off the place (figuratively) every once in awhile until I put up "no soliciting" signs front and back. Worth the investment. Got tired of answering the door to tell them to take their "cult crap" somewhere else. I tend to be blunt.
Well, with that approach you can come up with anything.
So, my theory is that a DAY is really the length of time it takes for God's throne to do a full 360 degree revolution. Since we don't know what that is, just wait till Christ returns and he will tell us. Until then, a DAY means nothing.
This is just a sampling, or typical example of what one must do in order to continue to make the Armstrong prophecy mold that failed in 1972-75 appear to be viable, or even possible. All of the various splinter groups have been required to go through the same gyrations in order to rationalize their continued existence. Clearly, keeping the Old Covenant oracles such as the sabbath, holy days, clean meats, and tithing did not provide the keys to “qualify” one to have “end times” prophecy correctly revealed to anyone. HWA made a very specific point of linking the two. If one is the function of the other, then both the prophecy understandings and the picked and chosen oracles succeed or fail together. This cause and effect relationship is one way in which HWA authenticated himself, sold his package, and made his church and teaching distinctly different from mainstream Christianity.
This is not like “I go fishing” during the attempts of the disciples to recap and explain to one another what they had experienced with Jesus as they endured the three days of the sign he provided. It also bears no similarity to Noah, in which onlookers had an opportunity to watch a physical project come to completion. It’s also not like the paring down of Gideon’s army during the time when he led people back to God, and then after victory, back astray. There are no parallels in the Bible which track with the rise and fall of HWA and his empire. What we’ve witnessed over the past 43 years, and especially since the death of HWA has been more like a destructive Samaritanization process. Looking for another parallel, it is as if all of the various splinters have been spewed from the mouth of God, diminishing their power to provide any sort of audible warning. None of them are as widely known as was the old WCG in the Hee Haw era, or when the Bonzo Dog Band specifically mentioned GTA in a popular song of the underground FM radio era of the 1970s. Frankly, more people remember the “Left Behind” series, but even that has faded.
Best things a recovering Armstrongite can do these days is to lead a moral and ethical life, observe the Golden Rule and the teachings in the Sermon on the Mount, and leave as small a carbon footprint as possible.
BB
Why didn't people kick Ron to the curb in 2008? He needs to get out of the prophecy business and get a job.
Unfortunately, he is such a practiced liar that if he got a job as a Walmart greeter he would probably tell customers, "Welcome to Trader Joe's!"
regardless of the vain ramblings of the false prophets the Word of God continues to be fulfilled:
indeed, from the Prophecies regarding the demise of the children of israel, e.g. how they would become the tail, and the stranger among them would become the head, or how God would appoint terror over the nation, as these rash of regular shootings are demonstrating, to prophecies like a vile man becoming the leader of a nation through con artistry, to prophecies like how the end time Church would perceive that "the Lord delayeth His coming", and they would begin to abuse their fellow servants...
these things are examples of many prophecies being fulfilled...
i would even remind these false prophets that it is clear in the Word of God that He would either send elijah the prophet before the coming of Christ, or He would smite the earth with a curse...
indeed, a binary prophesy, an if then else if you will; it seems to me that He will not be cursing the world after all, hence the seeming confliction in timing and failure of certain expected events...
c f ben yochanan
BB writes:
“There are no parallels in the Bible which track with the rise and fall of HWA and his empire.”
I would suggest that there is a ‘typology’ between the rise of HWA and his empire and the rise of David and the fall of the Davidic/Solomonic empire.
Radar/Ahithophel sets the stage in his comment: “A startling parallel to the Garner Ted-Herbert Armstrong tragedy - no softer word will do - can be found in the biblical story of King David and his son Absalom...” (Against the Gates of Hell, p.107).
Bertha & Loma/Merab & Micahel. To emphasize that this is a typology, in HWA’s case he meets the younger sister first but marries the older; while David is promised the older sister he ends up marrying the younger.
Some other ‘types’ RCM (Joab), Hoeh, McNair/three sons of Zeruiah; Church of God 7th Day/House of Saul; Oregon to Pasadena/Hebron to Jerusalem; Auditorium/Temple; Romona/Bathsheba; Tucson/Mahanaim. Tkach Jr./Rehoboam. Divided Kingdom/Church Splinters.
While more types could be drawn, and others welcomed, the implication from this typology is that HWA cannot be the “Elijah” to come, for it was in the time of the divided kingdom that the Tishbite arrived on the scene. Ahab and Jezebel provide the type of the Beast/Antichrist and the false prophet. Jezebel’s promotion of Baal worship pictures the false prophet’s promotion of Antichrist worship. Jeroboam instituted worship pictures traditional Christianity and God instituted worship pictures Christ’s church – Baal cannot have competitors and so the Antichrist cannot have competitors; hence the destruction of traditional Christianity, including the RCC, and Christ’s church beginning at the beginning of the tribulation.
The 100 prophets hidden in two caves provide the type for the place of safety.
Well, yes and no, Stan Rader was an insider to the Armstrong empire, and it was common practice within Armstrongism to invoke King David in an effort to explain and to provide Biblical cover to many of the sins and discord within the WCG. But, even making such a comparison begins with a very flawed assumption, that being that God had anything to do with Herbert Armstrong or the Radio/Worldwide Church of God in the first place. Some have rightly pointed out that God has worked through people with an extreme sin rap sheet. He worked with them after they repented. But can you seriously picture HWA diligently studying his Bible and praying for God to reveal His truths to him during the day, and then sneaking into Dorothy's bedroom at night? In other words, an active sinner, a very active one?
What most people don't realize is that because the Bible is such a large book, we can often draw instructive parallels between our own contemporary people and events, and things which are written about in the Bible. You can draw the same parallels with Shakespeare, Mark Twain, or Chaucer, all of whom wrote about somewhat common human experiences. The difference is that in drawing parallels with secular authors, we don't assume that people alive today are holy men or of God from the comparisons, in an effort to validate or explain teachers or churches that have ended up not being what they said they were.
It's bogus when people claim to be Joshua, Zerrubbabel, Elijah, and Elisha, and it's bogus to compare a little pissant fringe church movement with a united North and South Israel and its leaders at its very peak of existence. GTA fornicated like Samson and Solomon, but so did many others. He was also like Phineas and Hophni. Jereboam seems to have attracted a much larger following, proportionately, than GTA was ever able to muster. The beast and false prophet could just as easily find their parallels in Antioccchus Epiphanes and the Helenization written about in the so-called apocryphal (deutero-canonical) works describing the intertestamental period under the Hasmonean kings. Representatives of every tribe ( including the "lost" ones) were present at the time of the so-called Second Temple which the Idumean, Herod the Great had restored.
The Armstrong movement cannot legitimately claim a type and antetype relationship with any events in the Bible. To do that, you need to make so many Hisloppian leaps that it becomes a ridiculous exercise and waste of time. Poor ACOG members! They are forbidden to ask any hardball questions or to mount any serious challenges to the pabulum which is dished up for them. Lack of accountability is what permits this stuff to fly.
BB
“There are no parallels in the Bible which track with the rise and fall of HWA and his empire.”
While the Biblical parallels are dubious, there are certainly parallels within the domain of heresy. Victor T. Houteff was the leader of the Davidian Seventh Day Adventists (not the same as the Branch Davidians). There are many parallels between Houteff's life and the development of his church and the life of HWA and the development of the WCG. Houteff was like a composite of HWA and Hoeh. He wrote a lot of Hoeh-like prophetic interpretation accompanied by big charts reflecting prophetic timelines. Ironically, he was known as "Rod" but this was not a given name like Rod Meredith but a nickname from the title of a book he wrote.
Even Houteff's movements in North American paralleled HWAs movements - he started back east and ended up in the Los Angeles Area.
When Houteff died his church fragmented into many pieces, just like HWA, and one fragment became the Branch Davidians of Waco fame.
Reading Houteff's life is like reading a droll parody of HWA's life. Conversely, reading HWA's autobiography is like reading a droll parody of Houteff's life. But you kinda have to have an odd sense of humor to appreciate the parody.
What I am trying to say is "what goes around, comes around" especially in the Millerite realm. October 22, 1844 happens every few years.
God has changed "Soon" and "Shortly" to a 2000 year cycle as well but then changed it back to "Soon"as in soon and "shortly" as in shortly for our day.
Blogger DennisCDiehl said...
God has changed "Soon" and "Shortly" to a 2000 year cycle as well but then changed it back to "Soon"as in soon and "shortly" as in shortly for our day.
March 3, 2018 at 6:21 PM
Dude.....I thought you were an atheist now.....why are you talking about "god"...???
second thoughts...???
T
Dennis wrote:
"God has changed "Soon" and "Shortly" to a 2000 year cycle as well but then changed it back to "Soon"as in soon and "shortly" as in shortly for our day."
God started out with "You disciples won't finish preaching the gospel in all the towns in Israel before the son of man comes," and "Truly I say there are some standing here who will not taste death before the son of man comes," but then obviously, he had to change it.
However, everyone, from the first century onwards, has always imagined that "Soon" and "Shortly" meant within their lifetime. When comets appeared in the sky, they imagined these "signs" in the heavens were an indication that the advent was nigh. At the year 1000AD, everybody freaked out, because, I guess they thought Satan was only allotted 5,000 years. Little did they know he was actually appointed 6,000 years. And, assuming mankind is still that stupid, 1,000 years from now, little will we have known that he was actually allotted 7,000 years! During the Black Death, I am sure everyone though OMG forsure this time the horsemen of the apocalypse were riding and Jesus was on his way. Wrong again!
Yeah, I know, the bible writers poisoned the well by saying that "in the last days scoffers will arise, saying, 'Geez Louise, where is the promise of his coming?'" So the very fact that I scoff is evidence that, finally, at long last, this time Jesus really is like, totally on his way! Wrong again.
At what point do you cash in your chips and conclude that christinsanity is a false, pagan religion, cobbled together out of Mesopotamian and Mediterranean mysticisms? All the actual evidence points to this conclusion, meanwhile, there is none to support any other conclusion.
10.05 AM
The JW lost half a million members after the 1975 fiasco. Numbers they have made up since. They discourage members from pursuing a college education or similar, so are in some ways worse than Herbs outfit.
9.55 PM
Nice intellectualizing, but since God answers my prayers, I'II stick with my 'pagan religion.'
he was once a minister of Gods Church; the residue of the Spirit remains, is hard to be completely rid of; after all: was it not what drawed him to the Church in the first place?
i too have noticed that certain sentiments do endure in dd: come back over to The Way, and take ur place at the Right Hand of Christ, dd, lol!
T B asked "Dude.....I thought you were an atheist now.....why are you talking about "god"...???"
"God" has changed "Soon" and "Shortly" to a 2000 year cycle as well but then changed it back to "Soon"as in soon and "shortly" as in shortly for our day.
That better? Your question is better written "Why are you talking about God?" minus the quote marks which indicates a doubt about the concept and the small letters which indicate a lesser god than the one I suspect you are talking about.
"Soon and Shortly"
There are two places in the Bible where this wording is clearly present. One place is in the Book of Revelation. Personally, I believe that the argument for including the Book of Revelation in the canon is weak. Luther put the book at the end not because it was eschatological but because he felt that it was dubious. The "I am coming quickly" statement is one of the reasons why I have doubts about this atypical book. The book is unlike anything else in the NT. And it seems like this book is where all the prophecy/conspiracy weenies always find raw material for creating bizarre and obsessive interpretations of world events. Just odd.
Another place for "soon" language is in Matthew 24. Matthew 24 has two major themes that are closely interwoven:
1. The events of 70 AD.
2. The Second Coming of Christ.
You have to carefully tease these two threads apart to see what is going happen soon. If you don't, you will conflate the two themes. And it doesn't say what some traditionally believe.
Note: Millerites always wanted Bible prophecy to be fulfilled in their lifetime - no matter when their lifetime happens to be. This is the theme of Victor Houteff's many timelines. This is why brother Vernon Howell of the Waco congregation told his followers that the events of Daniel were playing out in their lives. This is the energy behind the Millerite movement. Their battery is always fully charged. The last thing they want to admit is that preterism is an accurate picture of Bible prophecy for the most part. If they awakened to this, the Millerite energizer bunny would stop.
and too...I don't personally judge myself as "an atheist" probably in the sense that you think you mean it. Agnostic means "without knowing" which may be a better term but I don't use that much either. I simply look at what I perceive to be a more complete and realistic view of the Bible which I was neither taught by those who did the hard work of sorting it out with a proper education in the field nor knew of the issues themselves. Mere Bible reading is not the key to understanding the Book, nor is a pious conviction based on marginal information.
I also have always loved good science done well and always took somewhat of an offense at the snarky "science falsely so called" comment in scripture which to me indicates a fear of the facts that overthrow faith issues.
I find Hebrews 11 "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for. The evidence of things not seen" to say "Now faith is what we hope is true based on absolutely no evidence."
That simply does not work for most people and seems to me to be a very false way to live and view the material world and the history and wonders both past and present in it.
It's hard to give up the illusion that there is a god out there. That realization didn't fully sink into my mind until 15 to 20 years ago. It's hard for us humans to realize we're all alone on this little planet amongst all the other life forms that have evolved and are still evolving. Would I like for the illusion to be real? Of course. It was very comforting to think there was some great transcendent power looking out for me and I could come up with all kinds of "proofs" that was happening, but I've noticed just as many fortuitous things happen now, if not even more, like winning a sizeable amount from the state lottery last week. Was not millions, but it sure helped. My tires were bald. Now, I feel more secure getting behind the wheel. Still some left over. In fact, if I still held to the old restrictions, I would have considered playing my set of numbers every time was a great sin and not done it while I was making matters much worse by giving ten percent plus of my meager SS to liars who sit on their ample behinds and preach nonsense to me. I quit that in 1975 and some years, I grossed nearly 100 grand in my business. Only age keeps me from doing it now.
So, I understand how some just can't let go of the illusions. It was ingrained in us from infancy on and reinforced by all those years we sat listening to endless sermons that ingrained it even more. It was brainwashing to the ultimate, and I despair at the realization that it likely will never be any different. The lie mongers are just too entrenched and everybody is born innocent and gullible.
It's hard to give up the illusion that there is a god out there. That realization didn't fully sink into my mind until 15 to 20 years ago. It's hard for us humans to realize we're all alone on this little planet amongst all the other life forms that have evolved and are still evolving. Would I like for the illusion to be real? Of course. It was very comforting to think there was some great transcendent power looking out for me and I could come up with all kinds of "proofs" that was happening, but I've noticed just as many fortuitous things happen now, if not even more, like winning a sizeable amount from the state lottery last week. Was not millions, but it sure helped. My tires were bald. Now, I feel more secure getting behind the wheel. Still some left over. In fact, if I still held to the old restrictions, I would have considered playing my set of numbers every time was a great sin and not done it while I was making matters much worse by giving ten percent plus of my meager SS to liars who sit on their ample behinds and preach nonsense to me. I quit that in 1975 and some years, I grossed nearly 100 grand in my business. Only age keeps me from doing it now.
So, I understand how some just can't let go of the illusions. It was ingrained in us from infancy on and reinforced by all those years we sat listening to endless sermons that ingrained it even more. It was brainwashing to the ultimate, and I despair at the realization that it likely will never be any different. The lie mongers are just too entrenched and everybody is born innocent and gullible.
Sorry for the double comment. Some of my recent comments never appeared, and I thought this one didn't make it, so I re-posted.
Allen,
If there is a god, he/she/it clearly is not communicating through any organized religion.
However, haven't you sometimes had the sense that you aren't entirely alone, and that your brain can perceive a kind of narrative in your life that is more than just the product of random chance?
Many religions contain the idea that your first duty is to live in harmony with your conscience. One of the clearest proofs I found that Armstrongism is bogus is that it often turns people into sociopaths, or into apologists for sociopaths. LCG members are required to believe that it was OK for Rod Meredith to reject the correction he received from GCG's Sabbath-keeping, HWA-following ministers, but that it was not OK for Patrick and Elizabeth Scarborough to do the same. In fact, Patrick and Elizabeth tried very hard to reconcile, while Meredith bristled at his correction and instead of seeking reconciliation stormed off to start his own church (something Meredith often accused other people of wanting to do, in a classic case of projection).
If there is a God, He gave you a conscience. Any religion that teaches you to trust an external authority instead of your own internal conscience is teaching you to become a slave. Even Islam, which proclaims its most devout to be "slaves of Allah," says that there is no compulsion in religion, and that the purpose of piety is to transform your conscience.
Yes, you need to inform your conscience honestly. Anyone who tells me that his conscience says it's OK to randomly hurt people for fun is either lying or is very sick, but the way to heal is not to be nice because someone else told him to, but rather for him to admit that, deep down, he knows that "what goes around comes around" and that he will have a happier life if he treats other people well. Armstrongism gives people permission to act against their consciences, which leads to dissociation, which leads to a passivity that makes people easy victims for con artist ministers.
One of the criteria identifying The Messiah is that he is a descendant of David and Solomon (Gen 49:10; 2 Sam 7:12-16; 1Chro 22:9-10, 28:5-7). An Israelite's tribal affiliation comes from his father (Num 1:18). This presents a problem to the authors of Matthew and Luke who both claim that Jesus was born of a virgin. To remedy this, they listed the genealogy of Joseph. Matthew's version includes Jeconiah (Mt 1:12), a cursed king (Jer 22:24, 30), which invalidates Jesus' claim to the throne. The problem with Luke's genealogy is that it lists Nathan (Lk 3:31), not Solomon. It was Solomon whose kingdom God promised will be established forever (2 Sam 7:12-16).
Paul stated in Rom 1:3 that Jesus descended from David according to the flesh. Was he referring from the father's side or the mother's side? If it is from the father's side, Jesus' virgin birth was not known to him or he simply did not believe in it (1Tim 1:4?), and Jeconiah's curse is still a problem. If through the mother, Jesus could not have been identified with the tribe of Judah/David (Num 1:18). Paul, a pharisee, would have known that a child cannot claim the tribal affiliation of his mother.
Nowhere in the Jewish bible and New Testament is Mary's tribe ever mentioned. The first chapter of Luke tells us that she was related to Elizabeth who was from the tribe of Levi. The author of Luke plainly states that Joseph was from the house of David (Lk 1:27, 2:4). He also states that Joseph was the son of Heli (Lk 3:23). To solve the problem of Rom 1:3 and explain the discrepancy between the two gospel genealogies, some claim that Heli was the father of Mary and adopted Joseph. This claim is not supported in the New Testament. Even if Mary was of Davidic descent, she still could not pass lineage (Num 1:18). Also, she could not be in line to inherit the throne of David because it is pass only to another male relative (Jer 33:17).
Please watch and Promote this Video About David Pack a fraud and destroyer. My spouse is trapped under his spell and I want to make sure no one else has to endure this...
EVER. Thank you
Anonymous (whoever you are), our minds load us with all kinds of illusions and misinterpretations of mental phenomena that science is continually finding explanations for. I don't put my trust in feelings. Feelings are deceptive. Give me the facts. You may have your illusions.
Ariel Ben Noach:
Is that your real name? Is your name really something like Wilbur Smith or Ralph Wilson? Are you some Anglo-Saxon guy walking around with a yarmulka and a prayer shawl? I don't mean to offend but many times Millerites like to wrap themselves in the mantle of the OT and spout Judaic memes - especially some of the Sacred Name Millerites. "Ben Noach" is non-descript - could be anyone based on the traditional interpretation of Genesis.
The problem is this. You have erroneously presumed that your criteria are something that God has to live by. You veered off when you started with, "One of the criteria identifying The Messiah.." It may be that God does not care about the rules and regulations that you cite. I would not even presume that God would care how the Jewish culture determines descent.
God must play by your rules? Like Jesus said, you are like children in the marketplace who say "we have piped to you and you have not danced."
I am sorry I forgot to include the link to the Dave Pack Fraud video. Here it is thanks again.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7dNHlmy-4g
Very good, Ariel Ben. Of course, those technicalities were beyond the understanding of the Roman Crafters of the New Testament.
Dennis
Hebrews 11 'evidence of things not seem..'is not a reference to mysticism ie, belief without proof. Gravity and the laws of physics are not directly seen either. There are a multitude of passages such as 'prove all things,' 'you shall know them by their fruits,' 'try the prophets/spirits' etc, which proves that the bible does not teach belief without proof.
The body of evidence is there. You shouldn't be playing stupid with your accusations.
Ariel Ben Noach?? We don't get many Jedi masters posting here.
Allen Dexter:
You like facts. You have never explained the factual basis for your atheism. Labeling yourself an atheist is bold stroke. Mr. Dawkins calls himself an agnostic because he knows he cannot prove that God does not exist. So far your statements are rich in viewpoint and lean in substance.
Let me give you a fact. The Universe had a beginning. It began with a singularity that suddenly and violently began to expand. Since that time the Universe has been moving towards entropy. There is no known process that will cause the re-organization of the Universe and a retreat from entropy. The Universe will be ever expanding. The singularity was packed with all the materials, energies and methods necessary to produce the Universe as we know it. This leaves a hole in physics and cosmology. The Universe was caused. It did not always exist. An Agent had to cause the singularity and design it and create the process for its expansion. We (most of us)know this agent as God.
It is a feeling and an illusion to deny this and retreat into the idea that science will one day explain this away. Science functions by the scientific method inside this reality and will not legitimately develop and verify extra-reality processes.
I believe our Jewish friends are making their presence known to counter Adolf's ignorant antisemitism.
Welcome, and shalom!
BB
I am Asian, was born and raised a Catholic in Asia. No Jewish blood that I know of. Because of this, I cannot use a pseudonym Ben Avram. Although I do not belong to any religious organization, I worship Yehovah and believe in Zech 8:23.
Shalom, my friend.
People who refuse to investigate alternative views are willfully ignorant. The COGs are many of their ex-members are willfully ignorant.
The role of the Jewish community is a harmful one because Jews are encouraged to regard themselves as separate from the rest of humanity, and as members of a community with interests quite distinct from those of everyone else. This “Us vs. Them” attitude -- this mindset that sees Jews as distinct from the rest of humanity, and which views non-Jews with distrust -- is rooted in the Jewish religion, and in centuries of tradition.
For some orthodox Jewish leaders, the “chosen people” is not just a superior or privileged group. They regard Jews and non-Jews as practically different species.
So, you say I've never explained the basis of my atheism. That would take several books you would not read. I've abundantly showed in my comments the basis of my atheism which is basically the facts I've presented about the Bible being a book of total fictions about such things as a seven day creation that never happened, a "fall" that is pure patriarchal fiction along with a worldwide flood that supposedly happened while great empires flourished all over the world and geographically unique species survived without an interruption, an Egyptian slavery and exodus for which there is no historical or archaeological record, a Jesus no historian of the time noticed while he was supposedly working stupendous miracles. I could go on, but you have your mental fetish, and you're going to hang onto it just like I did back there in the 50s and 60s. Nobody could get through to me then either, and until you wake up, I'm not going to dent your armor of faith in a total illusion.
7.44 AM
You don't give a reason as to why Jews seeing themselves as superior and separate is harmful. God is a God of diversity, so what's the problem.
you said: "Nowhere in the Jewish bible and New Testament is Mary's tribe ever mentioned"...
i beg to differ: clearly Luke 3 vs 23 and vs 31 traces marys lineage back to David...
c f ben yochanan
Well, I’m kicking back with some bagels and lox, and a small glass of Manischewitz, listening to some Bob Dylan, all brought to us courtesy of “the Jews”. Works for me!
BB
"For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." Romans 2:28-29
real jews are not necessarily of the bloodline of judah, but, rather, the Spiritual descendants of Abraham...
c f ben yochanan
For 2000 years, Christians have been persecuting Jews. They have taken the Hebrew bible and perverted it to force their Christology. Reengineering it to support their doctrine. Changing the meaning of Hebrew words to suit their agenda. Words like alma in Isa 7:14, they changed its meaning from 'young woman' to 'virgin'. Hebrew ka'ari in Ps 22:16 from 'like a lion' to 'pierced'. Hebrew lamo in Isa 53:8b from 'to them' to 'to him' so that it would appear as if Jesus was the Servant and not Israel. They are even looking forward to the day they are going to take over the land of Israel. They have been conditioned by their bible to regard Jews as spiritually blind. They think the Jews are going to hell.
Christians say they have replaced the Jews as the chosen people of God and then accuse them of having superiority complex. For thousands of years, even before the common era, Jews have known they are the chosen people of God and yet they have always been persecuted. Tanakh even states that the punishment for their sins have been more than they deserve. Do Christians call that superiority complex? Now, you are stating that they are not real Jews but Christians are (Christians believe they are spiritual descendants of Abraham). What do you call such behavior?
Jesus was just one of tens, if not hundreds, of thousand Jews who were crucified by the Romans. He suffered for not even 24 hours. Unlike some of those crucified who took days to die. That's the purpose of crucifixion ... for the body to hang there while the person slowly dies. Such a sight would instill fear on passersby that they would think twice to rebel. He didn't suffer more than the rest. He did not die for anyone's sins. Vicarious atonement is rejected in Tanakh (Eze 18). Human sacrifice is condemned (Lev 18:21). Was it practical to put a royal robe (expensive) on someone about to be crucified? Then take if off when it's already bloodied and cast lots to divide it? The anonymous gospel writers wrote the crucifixion from different angles but is it logical to think that they witnessed the same event in different times of the day? Does it make sense to conduct the census the way it's told in the gospels? For people to return to the land of their ancestors? How would you react if your teenage daughter tells you she is pregnant but still a virgin and the father is God? Would you bow down and proclaim she's carrying the Messiah?
The Christian bible is based on the Hebrew bible. If the Hebrew bible is false, guess what's the automatic effect on the Christian bible. Why don't you prove your Christology based on the Hebrew bible? Christians criticize Orthodox Jews for believing in Oral Law yet the New Testament has Oral Law. If you have studied, in order to refute, my first comment about criterion of The Messiah, you might have found a supporting Jewish document for Luke's inclusion of Nathan. It is stated in the Zohar that Nathan's wife is the mother (or ancestor) of the Messiah. Zohar is a Kabbalah text. Was the author of Luke a Kabbalist? Do you believe in Kabbalah?
i dont know anything about kabbalah, nor any worship of a wall, nor the worship of jerusalem or the land of israel...
all i know is what only Moses knew, and he knew it having never entered into the land of israel...
those what believe as i do have their doctrine rooted in the following:
"And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, AND TOOK OF THE SPIRIT THAT WAS UPON HIM, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.
But there remained two of the men in the camp, the name of the one was Eldad, and the name of the other Medad: and the spirit rested upon them; and they were of them that were written, but went not out unto the tabernacle: and they prophesied in the camp.
And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp.
And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" Bamidbar/Numbers 11:25-29
also Yoel/Joel 2:28, Yochanan/John 4:24 and Gevurot/Acts 2 relate to this same Doctrine in that God would enter to the heart of man and Direct His steps...
c f ben yochanan
Deu 12:32 to 13:1-4 warns us not to add or remove anything in/from the Torah, and not to believe any miraculous prophets who teach us to go after other gods. There is no sacrifice for presumptuous or intentional sin (Num 15:30-31). The sinner shall die for his sins, not someone else (Deu 24:16, 2Kings 14:6, Jer 31:30). Rom 4:5 states Jesus/Yeshua justifies the ungodly. Prov 17:15 states 'He who justifies the wicked, and he who condemns the just, Both of them alike are an abomination to Yehovah.' The Passover was not an atoning sacrifice. No sin was expunged. The protection was only for the firstborn, not the entire household. The atonement goat that was killed in Yom Kippur was only for sins commited against the Holy Place (Lev 16:15-16). The azazel goat, the actual sin bearer, was not killed.
Any inspiration or revelation should be measured against the Torah (Deu 4:2). The same will be true in the Messianic Age which is the backdrop of Joel 2. Are we now in the Messianic Age? Notice Jer 31:31-37 speaks of the time, in the Messianic Age/New Covenant, when no man shall teach his neighbor 'Know Yehovah' for we will all know Yehovah.
Using Yehovah above is an indication that I do not subscribe to the Oral Law. I'm leaning more on Karaite beliefs, i.e. just the Tanakh. I believe in Isa 56:1-8. I levite myself to Yehovah.
"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed." Yeshayah/Isaiah 53:5
the One whom would Justify the wicked was Prophesied long ago, hence nothing was added, but rather fulfilled...
and yes, both disbelief and blasphemy are also forgiven...
c f ben yochanan
Which one is blasphemous to say, "Jesus is NOT God" or "Jesus is god"?
The Fourth Servant Song (or Poem) starts at Isa 52:13 and continues to the end of Isaiah 53. The Servant is the nation of Israel (Isa 41:8-9; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; 49:3). Chapters (Isa 52 and 54) that surround Isa 53 describe the Jewish people as a single, afflicted individual who is finally vindicated by God. In Isa 43:10, the prophet identifies the "servant" (singular) as God's "witnesses" (plural).
Isa 52:15-53:1 Kings of nations are speaking here in numbed astonishment, for what they will witness in the messianic age will contradict everything they had ever heard or considered in the past.
Isa 53:2-3 Throughout history, the survival of the Jewish people seemed as bleak as a young tree planted in dry land. The world's nations despised and afflicted the Jewish people without cause. Was Jesus despised? Read Mk 3:7-9 and Lk 4:14-15.
Isa 53:4-5 Nations conclude that Israel suffered as a direct result of their own iniquity (Ezek 36:6-9, 15; Jer 30:8-13). JPS 1917 v5b 'and with his stripes we WERE healed'. JPS 1985 v5b 'And by his bruises we WERE healed'. In the past tense, not present tense.
Isa 53:6 The servant intercedes on behalf of the gentile nations (Jer 29:7).
Isa 53:7 The remnant of Israel silently went to their death like sheep to the slaughter (Ps 44:12-22; Zech 11:4-7). How about Jesus? Read Jn 18:36, Mt 26:39, Mt 27:46.
Isa 53:8-9 Again, who is speaking? Isa 52:15-53:1 states the kings of nations. Thus, gentiles confess that Israel was stricken as a result of their own nation's iniquity. The faithful remnant of Israel endured martyrdom throughout their bitter exile. In Isa 53:8b, most versions translate the Hebrew lamo as 'to him'. The correct translation is 'to them'. This same Hebrew word is in Isa 48:21 and, this time, all versions translate it 'to them' (as in 'he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them'). Since lamo is in poetic form, it can be translated as a collective noun (but should still be understood as more than one) as in the KJV of Gen 9:26, 'And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; And Canaan shall be his (Shem's descendants) servant'. Similar case in Isa 53:9, most versions translate the Hebrew b'motov as 'death' (singular). The word b'motov is plural in form, either 'deaths' or 'kinds of death' as in Chabad's CJB. Please note that Chabad's CJB does not have NT. There is another CJB that is published by the Messianic Jews, a christian organization pretending to be Jewish. In Isa 53:8b-9 (https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984/jewish/Chapter-53.htm#), a gentile is speaking of the persecution of the Jewish people: "For he (servant Israel) was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people (Gentiles), a plague befell them (Israelites). And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth." Was Jesus violent? Read Mt 10:34-35, Jn 2:14-15, Jn 18:36, and Lk 22:36. Was there any deceit in Jesus' mouth? Read Jn 18:20 and Mk 4:10-12.
cont...
Isa 53:10-12 The servant is promised children, long life and divine agency. The world is justified by the Servant's knowledge, NOT his blood. Israel, the Servant of God is finally vindicated before the eyes of the world's nations.
Materials above are taken from Tovia Singer's book titled "Let's Get Biblical: Why Doesn't Judaism Accept the Christian Messiah? Vol 1". Any problem in how the response is presented in this comment is my sole responsibility. Explanation in Tovia's book is highly detailed. You can also find some of the information on his website www.outreachjudaism.org. There are also free audio clips available there including this very topic (https://outreachjudaism.org/the-suffering-servant-of-isaiah-53-part-1/). He also has a YouTube channel under his name. If you are inclined to watch just one of his videos, I highly recommend his debate with Jim Cantelon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WCqKVPFy318).
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