One of the vilest teachings of the church that was brutally enforced over the decades was the "divorce and remarriage" doctrine/teaching. Countless stories have been told over the decades of loving couples and families ripped to pieces by the Church of God's vile stance. Most had probably thought those days were long gone, but it is not.
This letter was posted on Exit and Support and describes the vile and unChristian teachings of Jon Brisby:
I wanted to write and thank you for helping people who have left or will leave the "Armstrong cult groups." I was born into the WWCG. It helped to destroy my whole family--my parents, my siblings, and up until this year, even me. We all made some mistakes and bad choices on our own but Herbert Armstrong and his ministers, splinters, and even some members, helped destroy my family emotionally, just with the judgmental attitudes, being made to feel we were in "hot water" with God, telling us that outsiders were of the world, etc. My most recent minister Jon W. Brisby (Church of God, the Eternal) has even told me that my lack of financial comfort is the result of my "not living in a pleasing enough way for God." I was also told that my family is the "church" now and no longer my kids, since they are not members. Luckily, my kids grew up against the Armstrong teachings and have their own beliefs. As for me, I am finally what I consider to be "out of the dark" of these Armstrong worshippers. I emailed my minister two weeks ago and explained my decision to leave. He has yet to respond.
Church of God, The Eternal (COGE) is a small group. The lead minister is Jon W. Brisby (age 55). He has some wild ideas. A married couple came to the group from LCG a few years ago. They had been married for about 18 years. Brisby soon found out that the man had been married briefly to someone else when he was a really young man. They divorced and his ex married someone else. Anyway, this married couple of 18 plus years were instructed to split up and live separately but not get divorced. Jon Brisby told him that if his ex wife happens to die then and only then can he and his current wife live as a couple again. The couple have remodeled their home and made it into a duplex. They each live in one of the side by side units. They are allowed to go back and forth to each other's apartment for meal times but not allowed to sleep, shower or linger at each other's place. At the Feast of Tabernacles and Pentecost they were not permitted to sit together for services. This couple is in their 50's also.
There is another man, a single man around age 60. This man was also married but years ago his wife left him and married a Seventh Day Adventist. Brisby told him he must never remarry. This man said God would not allow him to marry unless his ex died. Brisby stays in total control of the dating and marriage relationships in the group. He comes off as very intensely and genuinely kind, but if he feels you cross him, then he gets an attitude and can be very arrogant.
--Kandice Cunning (Child survivor of WCG; Former member of COGE)Church of God, the Eternal has on its page the following which is used as a weapon to stop members from writing such things as was done above. They seek to create the myth that all of the things they teach are directly from Christ, passed down through the apostles to Bisby and others today. To deny what they teach is blasphemy and denial of the truth which separates the "rebellious" from God.
What God gave to Moses, He gave to Christ. What Christ taught to the apostles, He commissioned them to proclaim in their designated areas. What Christ and the apostles taught was the same as was revealed to Paul. And what all those servants taught is exactly what was given to an end-time servant (Matthew 28:19–20). For those who will hear, our purpose is to honor and proclaim that same way of life—the faith once delivered. In that way is found no part of the way given to Gentiles—people of the world (Deuteronomy 12:1–3; 4:1–40, Acts 14:16). We want the ways of God. We are not interested in any of the traditions or customs of this world. God’s servant of these last days at no time made the pagan customs of this world a part of the doctrine. The spirit which introduces change, and/or a relaxation of the doctrine is as much at work today as it was in the past. The called of God must be on guard incessantly. That spirit is a deceiver. He will do anything to destroy.
One concluding observation seems to be necessary. Those who believed and loved the Truth of God have remained strong, loyal, and faithful. On the other hand, it seems that everyone who was “argued” into acceptance of the “faith once delivered” has failed ultimately. It, indeed, seems like God is separating those who believe and love the Truth from those who must surely have accepted only on the basis of their own personal intellectual prowess.
Satan and his demons hate the ways of God. They will do anything to disrupt, challenge, and destroy. Such behavior is a manifestation of who and what the true people of God are all about. They persecuted Christ. In like manner they will do the same thing to those in whom Christ lives. The faithful of God will count it a privilege to suffer for the cause of righteousness. They will be persecuted and lied about with abandon, but these chosen children of God will know who they are. They love the Truth and will for no cause allow themselves to turn from it. They are the ones who will endure to the end.
Who are we? We are estranged members—a remnant (Romans 9:27–33; 11:1–5, Isaiah 1:8–9, Revelation 12:13–17)—from the apostate body (2 Thessalonians 2:1–3) who sincerely love God’s revealed Truth from the heart (2 Thessalonians 2:10), willing to remain faithful to the end (Matthew 24:13). That Truth which was taught by Christ (John 14:6; 12:48–50), that Truth which Christ commissioned the Twelve Apostles to teach (Matthew 28:20). Which was the same message taught by the Apostle Paul (Galatians 1:6–16, 1 Thessalonians 2:12–14). Which was the same message taught by an end-time servant (Matthew 28:19–20). Which had significant beginning with Moses (Hebrews 4:1–3). The Truth which is now obeyed from a spiritual premise (2 Corinthians 3:1–11).
These are the people that God’s true ministry desires to serve. It is our purpose to give you our energy and our love. Letter from Raymond Cole
2,733 comments:
«Oldest ‹Older 2601 – 2733 of 2733The preacher and sister running this org do not practice the marriage rules they preach.
Leavened bread .....God forgive him he know not what he says. Forgive him for not believing that none of those that he hope are in hell are not in heaven either but are awaiting whatever resurrection they will have part in. There is not hell for if they are in hell then they are aware of what's going on but the bible which you claim to believe, says the DEAD knows nothing. Is that are is that not in your Bible and if it is why are you calling God a liar. Like I said Father forgive him or her because they know not what they say.
Anonymous said...
The preacher and sister running this org do not practice the marriage rules they preach. Friend you seem to be stuck in your hatred for the Pastor and his sister. I pity you, so full of an evil heart. If they are sinning so much against God, why is God blessing them.
To Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 3:22:00 PM PDT, please name those blessings that Brisby has been blessed with. In my book, lack of growth in members when the directive by God is to add more members to his family, is not a blessing. What it is a sign of however, is the failure to do things the way God said to do them. Dwindling numbers, calling his listeners retarded, breaking up marriages, pronouncing curses upon people and teaching others to do so, are not signs of anyone who has been blessed. It does however have all of the makings of a group who left the train tracks a long time ago led by its conductor Brisby. It has all of the signs of a church that God has removed himself from. I could go on, but sorry friend, the TRUE manifested evidence is undeniable by anyone with eyes to see, and ears to hear.
They are blessing themselves with donations. He takes trips around the world while the brethren can't afford to turn on the A/C.
@ Anonymous said...
To Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 3:22:00 PM PDT If you knew as much about that group as you think you do you will know that most of the decline in membership came due to deaths and most of thos deaths were old people. How long do you want people to live to get 100 maybe two. And some of those that left was not really with us anyway. And we are looking for quality and not quantity. Remember the church was never going to be this big huge organization like the Catholic church. Many are called but FEW are chosen and when people do not like or believe what is taught they tend to leave. See me you have a spirit of hate instead of a spirit of love, care and concern. What did Jon or any minister in the church do to you? Did someone tell you your marriage is not legit in the eyes of God because you have a living spouse but you see a "nicer" more "hot" woman you want to go after or a man if you are a woman making that comment.
Anonymous said...
To Saturday, August 26, 2023 at 3:22:00 PM PDT
Christ also said to hold fast to that which you have and let no one take your crown. Either God is a liar, and I speak as a fool, or he gave Mr. Armstrong the truth in the earlier stages of his ministry. God do not and will not convert a person to lies and half truths. Think about it all of you that read this. Would a holy, righteous and loving God give one of HIS servants the wrong information and then decades later say, ahhhhhh, ahhhh, I made a mistake Pentecost was on Sunday but if you stop keeping Monday I will no longer bless you or that church and the income and members started declining once two major changes were made, the Day to keep Pentecost and the original teaching on D&R and then all the salvational doctrine was up for grabs. Would a perfect all powerful being make such a stupid mistake to give false doctrine and then decades later have to change them. NOOOO, a trillion times no. The Scholarly minded ministers are the one that changed the doctrine and then after that God spew them out of HIS mouth. They no longer tasted good.
Oh BloggerBlog, still regurgitating the same mantra for why you think a handful of people are the remnant. You have yet to dust off your Bible. When you do, it will be quite the shocker, trust me.
TRuth, you are delusional
God will only reveal truth once, after you let go of it He will give you very strong delusions. In your case that is true. You must be reading a Catholic Bible. You need to put that one back on the shelf
Billy Graham's org is blessed.
BloggerBlog, what promotes delusion in a Christian? Reading what and where you are told to in God's word? Or reading ALL of God's word? FYI, King James is my go to ;).
So either HWA was right, or God almighty of the universe was a liar?? You might want to check yourself, and repent of even being able to say such garbage. You are a defacto cult member. You've been programmed in how to think. Your pride and vanity loves believing you are elite and know the "truth" and everyone one else is too stupid to know what you know. Except what you know is what you've read in a church article, that told you what the bible says, then pointed to some scriptures after telling you how to interpret it. You are lost without your pamphlets and monthly letters. Why even own a bible, you're too stupid to understand it anyways right? They've convinced you of it and you eat it up.
The dead know nothing it is true, a dead body is empty and devoid of life. Luke 16 makes it clear the damned wish to go back and warn others. Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord, and wished to die and be with the Lord. The souls under the alter cry and say how much longer Lord? Christ if he was GOD, died on the cross physically, but his eternal spirit did not die, it cannot die. The cog teaching that God ceased to exist for 3 days is heresy. His eternal spirit is what resurrected him, he raised himself from the physically dead. Cog doctrine is garbage
Preacher giving dozens of sermons on marriage while he secretly advises a man to dump his wife who refuses to join. This man wants to find a way to marry Preacher's sister. He will sneak over from a splinter group feast site for a secret visit with her during the FOT.
To Friday, September 8, 2023 at 5:14:00 PM PDT; that is interesting, but there is far worse than that going on there, far worse.
Jon Brisby: Wrong Hair Length Will Result In Loss Of Eternal Life!
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2023/09/jon-brisby-wrong-hair-length-will.html
this guy has lost his marbles
All of the splinter group tyrants have lost their marbles. Each one looks for power in their own way, then they exert it up on the brethren. It's a story as old as time.
Happy Feast of Trumpets everyone! I was pondering this morning concerning this set of verses.
Matthew 6:19-21 (KJV)
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
We know this pertains to what we have our focus or faith in here right now, but it directly correlates to what our ministers are feeding us as well. If you take, for instance, a ministry that constantly harps on clothing, hair length, physical appearances, etc., where will your focus be as a hearer? I would think about physical things. So if then all you do is worry about how you look around other brethren, your minister, etc., where is your time, or spiritual food given for things that moth or rust doth not corrupt? There is none, right? So just a Feast of Trumpets warning as we move forward towards our savior's return, pay close attention to what you are being fed, and if you are not being fed those things that actually help you in your endeavor, then you must ask; what am I doing here?
Have a blessed day
Hwa holy days and hokey pokey sermons go together like a horse and carriage. Can't have one without the other. Otherwise it would be something different, like messianic Judaism, which actually carries the gospel unlike hebrew roots hybrid Nazi/Adventist fusions like armstrongism which is based upon false prophecy and man being destined to be God himself. Aka Luciferian doctrine. Man is a created being. Before Abraham, we weren't. Jesus Was. Isiah 43:10
Whatch wanna bet the creep trying to hook up with Brisby's sister has done this sorta thing before. He has a safe place this time to feel good about cheating on his wife because he has the permission of the church leader. Just make a big donation and will be overlooked.
the world wide church is now bableyon
I am so sick of you demon-possessed people criticizing Mr. Brisby! He is the manifestation of Christ on earth today. I would fear for my salvation if I were you! When Mr Brisby speaks it is as if Christ himself is speaking because Christ dwells within him.
The people who are criticizing Mr Brisby are Laodiceans who are sitting at home instead of gathering together at the Feast of Tabernacles.
Incorrect, I am at the Feast of Tabernacles right now, and I can tell you without hesitation that Brisby is a Charlatan, a false minister. I am that confident.
I also am confident that Gods one true church isn't a tiny dead group still desperately clinging to a failed religion. They are NOT blessed. Just because they haven't gone bankrupt, and the last of the elders haven't died off, does not in any way mean they're special. There's weird ass cults all over America. Hell, the branch davidians still have services and think Koresh was Jesus. You see, there's morons everywhere
Clearly you don't know your bible, where it clearly says the gospel would be lost until a special man of Gods chosing RESTORES the goodnews, and that although the guy would make countless wrong predictions and prophecies unlike any other biblical character ever, he's still the best man God could find to restore thr gospel Jesus accidentally allowed the gates of hell to prevail over until one Sunday (ironicly) in 1933
Clearly you don't know your bible, where it clearly says the gospel would be lost until a special man of Gods chosing RESTORES the goodnews, and that although the guy would make countless wrong predictions and prophecies unlike any other biblical character ever, he's still the best man God could find to restore thr gospel Jesus accidentally allowed the gates of hell to prevail over until one Sunday (ironicly) in 1933
It's high time everyone moves to where they will be spiritually fed. Defeat the stronghold of listening to messages that always point out your weaknesses, but never give you any Biblical insight as to how to actually overcome them.
Jon Brisby is beyond contradictory. Two years ago this man dismissed the book of Revelation not once, but twice in sermons as being key to our salvation. He said that even if we did not have this book for our use today, that we would already have everything we need in the other books. I find it ironic that he bases his whole Feast of Tabernacles messages primarily on this book and what is written in it as being key in our salvation as it relates to Babylon. This man double speaks. This is just one of many examples. I wonder how many sheeple even hear this stuff. Are their ears stopped?
If the book is not needed for us to gleen key information from it, then why use it at all? Just put it altogether from the other books Jon, since that's all we need.
Anonymous Friday, November 3, 2023 at 3:11:00 AM PDT,
Please cite the sermons of two years ago for my study. Thank you.
One of the messages he says this in, is "Just what do you mean the faith once delivered?"#29 given on 8/22/20. This was the first one he said it in. I will have to do more searching for the 2nd one. I know he said it again not long after because he must have felt embolden that no one said anything the first time around. Again, another way little tweaks of error make their way in. Don't say anything, you're going to get what your going to get.
Alas, "Just what do you mean the faith once delivered?"#29 is unavailable in the archive media. So, Anonymous at 7:39, there is no need to do more searching. I thought I wanted to do a conformation as i heard it vaguely, though. Anyway, Jon Brisby is fond of saying " it is not salvational" and "it is not in the test". The book of Revelation could be under such categories.
Tuesday, November 14, 2023 at 5:40:00 AM PST
Shoot me an email to dedicatedfcarriers@gmail.com
And I will send it to you.
He must be broke again. He is going after 3rd tithe. The members cannot afford to turn on the heaters in their own homes. He must be wanting to go on another trip to switzerland.
I'm certain he is losing money. More and more people are tuning him out. This is what happens when you preach error almost consistently now, and peoples ears finally begin to hear it.
One of the biggest issues I have with men like Jon, is that they keep giving messages with titles that make you think you are actually going to get answers. For instance "Seeking God's Will". If all you can tell me is that this is what I need to do, but cannot link the the scriptures together to actually give me an action plan, then what use are you? I know I need to seek God's will already, I don't need you to tell me this. So feeding Gods sheep they are not doing. Hearing themselves pontificate they are doing. If your not being a modern day Berean, then you will be led around by your nose period.
Anonymous said...
He must be broke again. He is going after 3rd tithe. The members cannot afford to turn on the heaters in their own homes. He must be wanting to go on another trip to switzerland.
Wednesday, November 15, 2023 at 4:36:00 AM PST I know you got to be a card carrying member of COGE in order to make that statement.
You mean a "member in good standing".
My advice get out quickly. This man has destroyed the Truth . He teaches errors constantly if you’re listening carefully. He wants more funding to sustain his travels around the world. He condemned Herbert Armstrong for visiting world leaders. We need to condemn his travel’s visiting countries. He lies constantly. He created false narratives. Follow the money folks. He expects us to freeze in our homes. All of us are struggling financially. He gets a life like a king and we the servants. Enough is enough stop travelling the world having a good time. I encourage all members to hold back on financial offerings. Bank those tithes until he understands God hasn’t blessed him. Stop the nonsense. You all have the power in your hands to force a change and return to the faith once delivered.
Friday, December 8, 2023 at 5:23:00 AM PST, you are spot on. There are those who are coming to see his shenanigans.
Merry Christmas, Bretheren. There are many members who do xmas and dont let JB know. What would he do if he found out he has lost control of them?
A huge power card of the COG depends on you viewing Christmas from their interpretation so that you are distanced from the evil non cult member world... Just keep believing the nimrod semeramis fables, and don't bother with the real history. Clearly Rome invented it to convert pagans with an identical celebration they were already doing... Or... Maybe that's a lie just like everything else
he would kik them out
Aren't they moving the church to Tennessee?
I believe I did hear they were moving the church to Tennessee
What is going on in this thread! Just goes to show there is a lot of mental illness out there. All I can do is shake my head in amazement at the blind stupidity of so many people.
There is so much untruthful crap in this thread. I am not saying every accusation is a lie. But if you think this thread can/should help open the eyes of the members (whom you don't think has yet seen the light) of that group. You're mistaking, they see all the obvious lies in here and general garbage and discredit everything from it. If anything you are just helping to reinforce their beliefs that they are in the "one" true Church. If you wanted to provide a compelling argument then you should have moderated all the garbage out.
I have a question to ask. If I can get a straight answer. If not that group, where? I don't ask this being defensive of that group. I ask with true genuine interest. Where is the truth being preached? If we are to believe the accusations made in this site then all of HWA's teachings are wrapped in error and false concepts. So again I ask, where? In my bible God says the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
Mathew
16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
So where has it been, where does it continue today? If you tell me there is no physical body today and that we each just have to do the best we can. You are calling Christ a liar! He said the church would exist. The church is a physical entity. Not your Livingroom listening to old recordings of dead men.
The word "church" comes from the Greek word "ekklesia," which means "assembly" or "congregation." In the New Testament, the word is used to refer to a group of people who have come together to worship and serve God.
No where in the bible does it say God will work with us each through our own study and interpretations. He says to prove. If there is no one to prove, then how do we prove? He does have example after example of men who he designated to be his teachers and leaders. In the bible pretty much every leader God picked to use, made mistakes and errors in judgement at times. No one is perfect.
Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Psa 53:3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
So where does that leave us?
I shall await your answers...
Explain the parts that were from mental illness? What part is untruthful crap?
Monday, January 22, 2024 at 2:26:00 PM PST I have the answer for you, but I will have to sit down at my laptop first.
Part I: To the "One in Search of Truth". I must say, for someone who says they are looking for answers, your introductory statements do not seem to reflect that. This tells me that you are most likely a current member of Church of God, The Eternal, and at that, a long time member. Maybe, maybe not, but i'd like to address your questions and concerns anyways and hope that you are genuinely someone who is in search of the truth.
To preface what i'm about to answer, i'd like to say that I myself have had a history with this group. I have no bias against anyone there, and I knew the current pastor/director very well. So to your initial question: If not Church of God, The Eternal, then where is the truth being preached? For starters, we both agree that the gates of hell have not prevailed against the Church. So somewhere there is a Church. You I can tell, believe that this Church is identifiable by physical markers: brick, mortar, sheetrock, etc... and further by a set of doctrines. What I will tell you, and further show you, is that the Church "is not" a physical organization per se. Space and time do not allow me to lay out everything, but i'm going to present some things to you for your consideration.
If the Church were physical in its attributes, then why is it not easy to identify? Do you think that God would make it that difficult to identify, or does Satan make it difficult? These are rhetorical questions.
Part II: The Samaratin woman at the well spoke to Jesus saying this: Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. Jesus replied to her: Woman believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet in Jerusalem worship the father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4: 20-24)
Jesus confirms with the Samaratin woman that the worship of God happens for the Samaratins at a mountain, and Jesus says that men should worship in Jerusalem. Both of these locations are physical. Jesus then confirms that it is now time that all men shall worship God in spirit and in truth. Spirit and truth are not physical attributes of a Church or a people. Of course this does not mean that people should not congregate in something physical of nature to worship, but it takes the focus off of an appointed place. Spirit and truth are not beholden to four walls. It is men who try to dictate where Christ will dwell with his people by claiming their authority to appoint these physical places. I know the arguements, Moses, etc..., but this is Christ speaking, and His word is final. Is Christ under men's authority? Or are Christs creation under His authority?
Keeping our discussion centered to the many groups that made their way out of WWCG, the assertion goes like this: Since we are the ones holding fast to the faith once delivered (using Monday Pentecost and D&R as the two primary crutches), and since no one else is upholding these, God is not present within their congregations. That is a pretty bold statement made by a mere mortal man, but lets put it to a test to see if it holds water.
Revelation chapters two and three focus on seven churches at the end of the first century. Every single one of these churches is different from the other with corruption present in every one except for Philadelphia. These churches are described as the "Seven Golden Candlesticks" in chapter one. Lets see how Jesus relates to His presence within these churches and their varying degrees of corruption. If a mans assertion is correct, then it will be confirmed that Jesus is present only in the church of Philadelphia. After all, they would be the only ones holding onto the "faith once delivered".
Revelation chapter 1 verse 12- 13: And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; and in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garmet down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Christ is seen in a vision given to John as being in the "midst", the middle of these churches. So now we have quandary. The Church as a whole, wherever it is, is spiritual in nature, and truth will reside there. And because we have now determined that God does not simply sit where a man dictates, but where something else is present other than claims of doctrine keeping; we have to ask where is the true Church? And where is the truth?
Part III: I'm going to leave some of this for you to put together, but for reasons detailed in many of Mr. Coles messages, he stated that the Church is made up of many members, and it's members are scattered all over the earth. One here, and one there. Our Bible tells us that these people will be known by their fruits. Not all the same level of fruits, but if you understand the Holy Spirit, these are people you will take notice of. Not because what they are doing is feigned and for show, but genuine. It may be the little old lady who quietly helps out and always seems to be full of joy, never troubled. It may be the young man who knows how to speak just well enough that he can diffuse problems between brethren when they arise. These are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. These are the physical attributes of the true Church, people who exemplify the fruits of the Holy Spirit, living temples. As for the truth, i'm sorry to disappoint you, but you can claim long and loud that their is a specific set of doctrines that make up the truth, but because you are dealing with men such as Jon Brisby, David Pack, Gerald Flurry and so on; your going to get their take and their version of this truth every single time. And if you have been listening close enough to them, that "truth" has shifted over time.
HWA brought some things to light, that much is clear. I can say emphatically that if it were not for my grandparents, and parents hearing him on the radio all the way back in the early 60's, then I may have not known what I know today; but then again, isn't that putting limits on God? Jesus said if you love me, keep my commandments. You know what those are. The Apostle Paul gave us a list of what will keep us out of the kingdom. Keep the commandments, don't do the things that will keep you out of the kingdom, love your neighbor and your brother, and fill in the blanks with keeping the Holy Days, and weed out what you must according to scripture. God does not require you to squabble over words or meanings of things, or speculations that men turn into doctrines in order to have what you need to make a go of this.
In all points, scripture tells us that the Church is not physical, not today. So as we looked at the churches that were physical in Revelation, they to had scattered members across all of those churches. Just as you have other brethren in United, Living, etc..., and yes; even some who may be meeting in living rooms. How will you know them? If you believe as you said that no where in the bible does it say God will work with us each through our own study and interpretations, then you to must believe that God is not working with just one man with one group in the one true Church. This would be tantamount to comparing that man to the Pope, and we know the Primacy of Peter is a Satanic doctrine. On the other hand, God did work with many individually. Many of the books of your Bible are labeled with their names.
Much more to say, but maybe another time.
you mean like the primacy of peter sermon a Litz gave, without correction from Jon? Or the repeated phrases by Jon, "if HWA wasn't Gods man than Jesus Christ is a liar!" Or the countless referring to COGE as "the true church of God?" HWA himself blasphemed the gates of hell verse, by claiming the truth wasn't preached for 1900 years until he came around. Did we forget about that?
Yes, those are exactly what I mean.
Such as JB giving dozens of sermons on marriage while he secretly advises a man to divorce his wife so he can marry JB's sister. Disgusting hypocrites.
sometime around 2003-2006 at a FOT at the Elks lodge, a Lits sermon title was "why Christ delays his coming" and the sermon was pretty much about all you crappy cog members not living up to the faith once delivered. effectively foiling Gods plans for a second coming... what a crock
To the "One in Search of Truth". I am now awaiting your response.
I wish to ask Truth re his view on Raymond Cole (Cole)'s teaching that the key to knowing the Truth is that Truth is divinely revealed and not through scholarship such as self study. The exception is Herbert Armstrong (HWA) as his self study in genuine pursuit of the Truth, hence the true Church is revealed divinely by God. In short, Cole believed that if we understand that truth is by divine revelation and that only the called can understand this spiritual truth, a lot of unnecessary arguements would cease. Thus, many of the Church of God, the Eternal (COGTE) teachings such as Monday Pentecost, Divorce and Remarriage, man to become God as God, Sabbath, the Holy Days, British Israel, etc are truth and cannot be changed because God as the Word does not change. The whole premise is based on this divine revelation as opposed to worldly interpretation.
Friday, January 26, 2024 at 8:12:00 PM PST, this is a very good question, and thank you for asking. I think that the Bible emphatically shows us that God does work with individuals through divine revelation, and this includes you and me both. How? Through study, prayer, meditating, and fasting. We have to get our minds away from this line of thinking that God works with one man and one man only. This is nothing more than Catholicism, and sadly this teaching has worked its way into the Church at large and is practiced wholesale by men such as Brisby, Pack, Flurry, you name it. You can look to almost any of their writings or recordings to prove this. Do I believe as Raymond did that HWA was divinely inspired by God through his "initial" studies? Sure, I do. It was sometime during his initial studies and more so after things started to take on a corporate framework for the organization he developed, that he removed himself from the inspiration of God. So, my belief as I can prove to you from the Bible, is that we are all divinely inspired as long as we stay away from pride and arrogance.
Ask yourself this; if you and I cannot be divinely inspired by God on an individual level, then why did Armstrong himself utter the words "don't believe me, believe your Bible"? He himself was telling the brethren to "study". If you don't have the Word of God, then you have nothing, no defense against these men that Jesus and the other Apostles warned us about who would make their way into the Body of Christ and merchandise His flock. Not only monetarily, but by whatever means they lusted after; authority, you name it. Why are we told to do as the Bereans did? Study? When your called to follow after Christ and seek baptism, what is that? Who's inspiring you to move in that direction? Something divine? What then after you are baptized? What is that measure of the Holy Spirit given to you to help you? Divine inspiration merely only for overcoming? What about being told to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling? If that is not a duty incumbent upon you to work, but merely to follow a man someone told you to because he alone was "divinely inspired", then why the statement? Peter was told when Jesus asked him who he was, that it was not "flesh and blood" that had revealed the answer to him, but it was the father who did. The father is divine, the revelation came to Peter from a divine source, as it did to all of those other disciples who were listening along with Peter at that moment. How do you suppose they knew? One, the clear evidence of His works in their midst, but furthermore they had an Old Testament that they had what? Studied, which was full of the prophecies of a Messiah to come. I could go on for pages with examples in the Bible that apply directly to you and me today. With the doctrines that you mentioned taught by COGTE, if they are divinely inspired teachings given to HWA through the means I listed above, is it not your duty to prove them? Or, to blindly follow along? If the latter is correct, then why not add an additional divine doctrine of "thou shalt drink purple cool aid"? I jest, but you should see clearly why I say what I have. We are told that things are going to get so bad before Christ returns, that even the very elect can and many will be deceived. I myself have proved most of those teachings to ring true. When you are told something is inspired or that you must accept it because a minister said so; prove it but do it from a standpoint that does not involve pride and arrogance, and that you want to prove it right first. If it is wrong, it will be crystal clear in most cases. Much more I could say, but I hope this helps?
Truth,
Your explanation helps. Hope you will continue to contribute to this thread to help those like me who genuinely like to know why you believe what you believe especially in what the Bible says vs. men like Herbert Armstrong, Raymond Cole and Jon Brisby of Church of God, the Eternal.
Where is the "one true church" that Jesus founded? Raymond Cole taught the Catholic church was the ONLY church with valid apostolic succession.
So there is your answer. Show me any other church with valid Apostolic succession from Jesus and the Apostles.
I'm not sure what your point is
@Truth
My point is, if they're looking for the "one true church" that carries the authority that Jesus gave to the Apostles, they should look no further than the catholic church.
However if they are looking for a group that has doctrines to match their beliefs, then get ready for the religious buffet out there.
Are they looking for the church that carries the Authority of Jesus Christ? Or are they looking for a group that matches their personal private interpretation of scripture?
The church was not built upon peter, it was built on Christ. So no the catholic church has no authority. Armstrongers can't make up their mind if HWA was Elijah or Peter. Whatever gets suckers to pay their 3 tithes is all that really matters.
Orthodox Anglican, truth has been so perverted since the first century church, that I see no church out there that holds authority unless it is what I spoke of in earlier posts in this thread. I think that can be biblically proven. There is so much confusion because rather than look to the word of God, people are looking to men. It was an issue in the Bible, and it remains so today. I think your latter observation is correct. Many if not most are looking for a group that matches their personal private interpretation of scripture. We have scripture that instructs us to prove, trust no man, search the scriptures, try the spirits, etc... yet how many really do this? Instead, they go off chasing a man who claims Herbert succession, or some form of it. By this, these men keep a following, and steady stream of tithe revenue coming in. Jesus will have to right the ship.
@Super Luther Baptisinner
The church was built upon the foundation of the Apostles, with Jesus being the chief cornerstone Eph 2:20.
ohhhh that's saucy. Saucy like forbidden food not found in the COGE sanctioned cookbook. No Coles vegetables for you, or carob balls too.
Brisby & Sis's organization is NOT the true church. They do not practice the rules they preach. Brisby gave dozens of sermons on marriage while he secretly advises a philandering man to divorce his wife while knowing the philandering man wanted to marry Brisby's sister. OK'd by Brisby because of big donations. How the hell can anyone believe this is the only church? The people running this org are disgusting hypocrites! Does anyone not find this sickening gross?
@Truth
Perversion of "truth" is not cause to compete with the authority God made and set up your own authority based on your definition of "truth."
In holy scripture we do see perversion and corruption in the monarchy, as well as in the priesthood.
However, we do NOT see competing kingdoms or priesthoods rising up and being considered legitimate authorities by God based on holding fast to scriptural truth.
Anytime there is a separation from the legitimate authority God instituted it is treated as rebellion by God, no matter how righteous the cause is. Uzzah did the right thing thing in his eyes to keep the ark from falling, but he didn't have the authority to touch the ark (2 Sam.6:6-7).
Why would you think this is to be any different with the authority God instituted with the church?
What I find sickening and gross is that you don't understand expensive trips to visit 3 people in Switzerland and Australia don't pay for themselves. Please refi your home and give to the church for this worthy cause, or more divorces will be allowed. You dont want God to take away your spot in the millennium do you? Whatever ministry binds on earth is bound in heaven And most certainly stay away from the medical system.. the real problem is they will take your precious money away, that SHOULD be willed to the church.
I never thought about it that way before, but he's right!
Orthodox Angelican, no one is saying to compete with the authority of God, but being called, baptized and having access to His word, gives us some ability to stay straight does it not? If competing with God is what you think I'm advocating, then please read my comments again. The fact remains, truth everywhere has been perverted, so what then? God said he'd never leave us or forsake us, but as you can clearly see by the dozens of comments people have been leaving on this post, many are wondering where, and who? And if not, what? So what is your insight? Where is this one true church with authority? Point, and we shall run towards it. You and I both know the Catholic church holds no authority today with the nonsense they promote. Jesus said the father requires His people to worship him in spirit and in truth, not in a physical location or a named religion other than what we call Christianity. Please point the way to where all of these people congregate and worship in spirit and I will know them by their fruits.
There is one large denomination in America, the largest non Catholic one... That feeds the hungry, clothes the naked, shelters th homeless, visits the sick and has prison ministries, and takes care of the widow and orphan, and is sending missionaries to the ends of the earth, and preaches the gospel, and each church in it is considered independent and can chose their own music, dress code and church culture, so long as the core doctrine is correct. That's a large example of fruits. Oh, and they're not founded on a false prophet predictor fear monger who claimed to "figure out the Bible for the first time in 1900 years.". Yes any man who did such thing would be kicked out
Anonymous said...
Such as JB giving dozens of sermons on marriage while he secretly advises a man to divorce his wife so he can marry JB's sister. Disgusting hypocrites.
Thursday, January 25, 2024 at 8:32:00 AM PST. Since she is divorced from her husband and still married to him in the eyes of God even if this man were to divorce his wife, he still can't nor can she marry this guy whomever he is. And even if this happens it would still not be a legal marriage in the eyes of God. This man's wife would have to die and her husband would have to die in order for them to marry each other.
It will be authorized by JB. He cannot afford to lose more members. Word is out among WCG splinters that unhappy men can join up with JB to get a do-over; just make some big donations and complain about their disobedient wife to JB and it will be authorized.
To Anonymous said
It will be authorized by JB. He cannot afford to lose more members. Word is out among WCG splinters that unhappy men can join up with JB to get a do-over; just make some big donations and complain about their disobedient wife to JB and it will be authorized.Monday, February 12, 2024 at 4:39:00 AM PST
I say the following:Pro 13:22 When a good man dies, he leaves an inheritance to his grandchildren; but when a sinner dies, his wealth is stored up for the godly. The Living Bible.
This is why Jon does not need the money of the people in COGE, He had a godly father and mother and they left him an inheritance. Stop your hatred before something serious happens to you at the hands of GOD ALMIGHTY.
Go ask JB if it's true and see what he responds. Then tell him God is gonna cut him down.
Anonymous said...
Go ask JB if it's true and see what he responds.
Then tell him God is gonna cut him down.Tuesday, February 13, 2024 at 4:23:00 AM PST What, have you yourself already asked him and did you note his response? Why do you want someone else to do your dirty work? You make Mr.Brisby out to be far worse than the most evil of the Television Evangelists. Too bad that little group is not big enough to afford a jet plane then that would really prove your point, wouldn't it?
It is not necessary for me to ask Brisby. I already know it to be a FACT. Are you afraid to ask them to verify for yourself? Or blindly defend Brisby & Sis dirty work? Disgusting hypocrites!
It's pretty funny that loyal members come to this super hardcore expository of false Armstrong teachings website to defend their church. What are you even doing here? perhaps in the back of your mind you want to wake up from the delusion, but your false sense of security won't let you... yet. But it's a good start that you're here. Welcome. Please take the time to read some of the interesting articles here, like a chronological collection of false prophecies, mind control techniques, or incest allegations.
We come here to defend Mr. Brisby from the salacious lies posted here. He is Christ's embodiment in this dying world today. Christ speaks through and in him. For that we are grateful.
What lies?
Anonymous Anonymous said...It is not necessary for me to ask Brisby. I already know it to be a FACT. Are you afraid to ask them to verify for yourself? Or blindly defend Brisby & Sis dirty work? Disgusting hypocrites! Wednesday, February 14, 2024 at 1:15:00 PM PST::::How do you know it as fact if you do not have to ask him? What proof do you have? Put up or shut up!
Look, it's clear that it has been going downhill there for sometime, and it is getting worse. That's okay, this is what happens when men step out of bounds with God. We are literally seeing happen with all of the offshoots of WWCG. Here is my suggestion; since the Bible says to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, which clearly puts all of the responsibility on you, and no other man, work it out. Test, try and prove. This way when doors do close, you know how to rely on God, and not a man.
Such rude behaviour from a "christian' telling us to shut up. Is that what JB & Sis teaches over there now? I have been a direct witness to JB and Sis. That is my proof. Are you one of the men that they advised to dump your wife and the reason you are defending them so strongly?
All you have to do is read the annoucement section of the monthly letters:
People getting sick, people dying, no new marriages, no new babies being born.
All the youth are leaving COGE as soon as they turn 18.
It won't be long COGE will only consist of about 15 die hard followers of Brisby. They will all proudly boast "We have the TRUTH!" ... as Brisby defines it.
Anonymous said...Such rude behaviour from a "christian' telling us to shut up. Is that what JB & Sis teaches over there now? I have been a direct witness to JB and Sis. That is my proof. Are you one of the men that they advised to dump your wife and the reason you are defending them so strongly? Friday, February 16, 2024 at 3:54:00 AM PST
This is what I believe, What about you?
Anonymous said...Such rude behaviour from a "christian' telling us to shut up. Is that what JB & Sis teaches over there now? I have been a direct witness to JB and Sis. That is my proof. Are you one of the men that they advised to dump your wife and the reason you are defending them so strongly? Friday, February 16, 2024 at 3:54:00 AM PST
This is what I believe, What about you?
Mat_5:31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Mat_5:32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
Mat_19:9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
1Co_7:2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.
1Co_7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
1Co_7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
1Co_7:11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
1Co_7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.
1Co_7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
1Co_7:27 Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife.
Eph_5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph_5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph_5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph_5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
1Ti_3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti_3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti_5:9 Let not a widow be taken into the number under threescore years old, having been the wife of one man,
Tit_1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
1Pe_3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
Rev_19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Rev_21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
What is the name of the sister since you are direct witness to this and won't give at least specific proof of what you alleged.
Mary
Is that checkmate?
Go on, come up with a reason why that proof which passes your test isn't sufficient.
What's the name of this man she wants to be with. No checkmate because you haven't given a specific incident to prove what you say. What is your name, by the way.
You ask for proof. The proof was given, and as predicted it wasn't good enough, now you want more proof. If I healed someone as proof you'd say the healing was by Beelzebub.
Jesus was right, you wouldn't even believe the testimony of one who comes back from the dead with a warning.
A wicked and adulterous generation looks for signs.
No matter what sign or proof you demand, you will only believe the deception that you want to believe.
u r gonna get kiked out church for being on the internet on saturday haha
He is not going to give the name of the man because he is afraid to get kicked out the COGE. As the verse goes they were with us but they are not of us if they were they would not be saying the trash that they are. Envy, hatred, bitterness is not the way of God but the way of Satan the Devil. And this person should know God hate a lying tongue.
Tell us what lies you are referring to. Have you asked JB and Sis to verify?
You are referring to JB and Sis lies and disgusting hypocrital behaviour.
Just let it be. A derailed train has to come to a crashing halt eventually.
I just have to make a statement. I'm so tired of these groups giving "so called" sermons as if they are somehow feeding the flock, when they are not. If you feed someone knowledge, Biblical or otherwise, the result from that is supposed to be that the receiving individual then has something that they can put to work in their life and grow from it. Merely being told that you need to do something over and over, is not feeding at all by definition, but harping. It is not educated or wise at all for ministers who do this, because their words are beating the air. No one needs a minister to stand up at the pulpit and do this. Anyone can open their own Bible and see that they need to do things to be better. A good minister (rare) will tell you HOW.
In regard to COGE, I like Mr. Burke, but there are so many men who get ordained, and then turn around and try to be like the one who ordained them. Please stop this. It benefits no one. I know Mr. Burke, and I have broken bread with him in the past but being a salesman and good friends with the pastor general, doth not make a minister. There is much in this blog about Brisby which is true and provable, so that speaks for itself. Bob is a likeable guy, but just about every one of his messages, including this last one done as a pre-Passover message, are void of any spiritual food. Sorry, but it is true. I'm not knocking the guy's ability to speak, but in his knowledge of how to deliver something so that it helps the hearer, he is devoid of this ability. In his pre-Passover message, he goes on and on about having brotherly love, etc... Listen, we all know that we have to, but results only come from those who know HOW to. Teach the people that, and then you will see this brotherly love starting to manifest itself. Sadly, it has been all but absent in this group for decades. Division has been promoted more than anything. If you want to preach about brotherly love, and getting out of clickish groups, teach how to, instead of telling people they have to. We all know that already. An example would be if someone were teaching about faith. We can all tell people that they need to increase their faith, but without having the scriptural knowledge as to how to go about it, the words are meaningless. Faith in one area tell us that faith is attained by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. See, that is instruction. If Bob were to start doing this, preaching with instruction, instead of preaching at; he would have results moving forward. This is meant as constructive criticism, and from one who knows his listening audience.
Preacher John shouldn't give dozens of sermons on marriage while secretly advising a married man to divorce his wife who refuses to join. Especially as Preacher John knows the man wants to hook up with preacher's sister.
We know, you keep telling us this about Jon and his sister. Duely noted.
Anonymous Anonymous said... Preacher John shouldn't give dozens of sermons on marriage while secretly advising a married man to divorce his wife who refuses to join. Especially as Preacher John knows the man wants to hook up with preacher's sister. Wednesday, February 28, 2024 at 5:01:00 AM PST
Okay since you seem to really believe in what you are saying and Jon Brisby is preaching contrary to the truth...Why are you still with this group? You must love to hear such sin preached in all these dozens of sermons you keep mentioning, so why are you still there? Did you come on to his sister and she shot you down and now you are bitter and angry, even resentful?
Why does the truth revealed of JB and Sister upset you? Do you know them personally?
Why does the truth revealed of JB and Sister upset you? Do you know them personally?
Friday, March 1, 2024 at 4:18:00 AM PST
I will answer your question if you answer mine. Who are you? Who, who, who, I really wanna know?
The reason people do not leave Brisby, just as they do not leave David Pack, Gerald, Flurry, etc... even when they see error or issues, is because they are scared and afraid. This happens to almost everyone who has been in a group for a long period of time. If you have been told for decades in one form or another, that your salvation depends upon staying in that group and holding onto its set of doctrines, and you have never really dug into the word of God to prove otherwise, fear is your sole motivation for your decision making. I know, because I once lived it, and have had the opportunity to speak to many who have had the same realization. It is much like being in a marriage with an abusive spouse. Where do you go? What do you do? You know its wrong to stay, yet you do.
A member from COGWA is visiting/recruiting people at the Texas location. He has just about convinced a family of 4 (man, wife, 2 teens) to leave Eternal and join COGWA.
Isn't that a seventh adventist church?
COGWA is another splinter group. It is Church of God Worldwide.
That's interesting. I didn't even know they had a family down there other than a small handful I know. Well maybe that's why JB is doing habitat sermons. It seems that in number three, he is leading up to if you leave COGE, you will be leaving your spiritual habitat, and without that you will die. We shall see.
There's a couple families in TX with teenagers. Thats great news if they are leaving Frisbee's cult
What will the TX deaconess do when she has less people she can control, meddle, and tattle to Brisby?
With Birsby running off all the qualified young men, and all the eligible old men dying, he might have to promote his many Deaconesses into Priestesses to lead his remote congregations.
Word is out among the splinter groups that men who are unhappy with their current disobedient wife can join COGE and JB will help them get a divorce. So that is one way JB shows his church is growing with new members on the annual financial report.
That is how the gossips at HQ know what is happening out in the field. She is calling, texting, emailing up there tattling on the members to keep them in control which gives Brisby ideas for new church rules.
Yes, the TX family will be visiting COGWA this Saturday.
What will Preacher John do when he finds out?
With so many people dropping out of coge, get ready for the damage control sermons: coge is the one true church... brisby is the only one true minister... without him and his cult you're hellbound.
Well if the guy would stop traveling the world on the brethren's dime and actually do his job, people may stay. What does it take to do his job? Everything he's not been doing. Stop lying, stop with the smugness and arrogance, start preaching the true gospel instead of some pharisaical perverted version of it, and so many other things that could be listed. Start doing that,and maybe, just maybe you won't drive the whole thing into the ground.
A truth has been revealed that JB and his Sis do not practice what they preach. JB gives dozens of sermons on marriage because he wants to hide the fact that he advised a man to divorce his wife. And knowing the same man wants to hook up with JB's sister. Disgusting hypocrites.
He wants to be a modern day Garner Ted.
Did that family in Texas leave COGE yet?
Not sure about that. Usually secret sermons are given by Brisby to berate and slander the character of the ones who leave. This way he comes out smelling like roses. Ninet nine percent of the time it is his fault to begin with. Only the inner circle will know about it, so you won't hear it broadcasted on the website.
Some of the members have borrowed money from Brisby so they feel like they cannot leave. They are so brainwashed that they wont take a second job because they might have to skip church sometimes or stay home for the feast. And they get in a money bind when car breaks down or cant pay the rent. They have heard Brisby badmouth members that had the guts to leave and they are scared he will turn on them too. Brisby has members that tattle on each other. And he also has the gossips in HQ who keep him informed of who has missed a 3rd tithe payment.
Yeah, Preacher John had the office secretary refuse to give a tithe receipt to a member's wife so to help the husband hide money from the wife. FACT!
It is and has been a house of cards for a long time because Jesus is not the foundation in this little organization. Jon Brisby is who the few members look to for salvation.
How many members are there in this remnant church in Eugene, Oregon?
Less than a dozen people at the church HQ in Eugene.
I knew the number was really low. It is the direct result of false teaching. Some die, but many see.
If the number is so low ( less than a dozen) in HQ and no more than 50(?) in America and elsewhere world wide,how does Brisby and the church survive on such low tithe income?
It is not less than 50 worldwide, it is probably more atune to 200, plus you have the stragglers who come and go and do not know who to give tithe to, so they send it anywhere. All that's being said here, and it is true, is that what Brisby has done during his tenure i.e. fruits manifested, teaching, etc..., is directly reflected in the the diminishment of the Oregon group and U.S. brethren in general. Sorry, but his recorded and written words are a witness against him.
One source of income is from philandering men who make a large donation so JB might help them divorce their disobedient wife.
Another interesting attribute to this group is that as they have dwindled significantly over the years, the ones really trying to work on being a Christian have left. The ones who mostly remain, are the agitators, or railers as the Bible calls them. Busy bodies, meddlers, etc... From Oregon, to Wisconsin, to the East Coast.
One big interfering meddling gossipping biddie in Texas
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