Everyone in Pasadena has said that this is absolutely not true when Dave started spouting this years ago. HWA never considered Dave an advisor of any sort. Dave as considered more of a tattle-tale than anything else. In those conversations he did have with HWA his glorified himself as HWA's true supporter. This is just one more of Dave's tall tales.
It was during this trying time for the Church that Mr. Pack’s relationship with the Pastor General grew much stronger. On many occasions in the summer of 1978, the men spoke on the phone, sometimes at length, and discussed an array of subjects.These long, detailed discussions laid the groundwork for more extensive talks about liberal doctrine and other wrong ideas permeating the thinking of certain senior men in Church Administration and many in the field ministry. The subject of these talks slowly rolled into reorganizing the Work “post-Garner Ted” and the Church’s overall condition from a field minister’s perspective.That Mr. Pack was a field pastor was helpful to Mr. Armstrong. At the time, the Pastor General was surrounded by administrators at Headquarters who seemed to have their own agendas, while he was at the same time somewhat isolated living in Tucson. (A recent heart attack, plus a second marriage, had temporarily taken Mr. Armstrong to Tucson to live.)It was through these phone conversations that Mr. Pack slowly began to realize his relationship with Mr. Armstrong had changed. He had become an advisor from the field perspective.“Many will dispute this, and our enemies will call this characterization false, but this is what our relationship became. Only many years later did I understand why God engineered circumstances as He did. But this description is the truth of the relationship—and many knew it.”Mr. Armstrong expressed that he appreciated frankness and honesty, even when it meant respectfully disagreeing. It stood in stark contrast to the usually sugarcoated, self-serving political anglings he often received from those at Pasadena. These were people who either shielded him or told him what they thought he wanted to hear (generally, because they had their own agendas).
36 comments:
"At the time, the Pastor General was surrounded by administrators at Headquarters who seemed to have their own agendas, while he was at the same time somewhat isolated living in Tucson. (A recent heart attack, plus a second marriage, had temporarily taken Mr. Armstrong to Tucson to live.) "
I recall HWA "Fled" to Tucson for legal reasons and to stay out of reach of the California Attorney General for a time during the 1979 Receivership problem.
I also recall that Dave stated he was responsible for the Plain Truth Newsstand Program which was not true at all.
http://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2012/02/can-dave-pack-be-trusted-to-tell-truth.html
God will be licking dave's cowboy boots soon. Just like YHVH who (according to the Jews anyway) thought the jews were so awesome, desirable, and irreplaceable, that He came on his knees to them, begging them to return to him, even after they were a-whoring after other gods with large private members (according to the graphical OT descriptions inspired by horses).
He has great tolerance for a crazy, senile old coot, but zero tolerance for a lady who cares for cats, and no compassion for a lady on the edge and about to commit suicide!
Obviously, HWA did wonders for Dave’s ego.
BB
Yes, and if things really got hot for HWA, he apparently planned to flee to Mexico, not Petra. I imagine Dave would be one of those left behind.
By far the most accurate and speedily fulfilled prediction that I have ever heard in any of the Worldwide Church of God splinter groups was from an older United Church of God minister.
I had mentioned to the UCG minister that Donald H. Tiger (the man behind the Herbert W. Armstrong CD project) had gone with David C. Pack and his newly formed Restored Church of God. The UCG minister immediately became noticeably animated and blurted out: “I'll make you a prediction. They won't be able to get along!” That was about all that the UCG minister said, other than adding that he was ashamed that David Pack was a minister. Perhaps those who knew David Pack well will say that such a prediction was an obvious “no brainer.”
Again, this was by far the most accurate and speedily fulfilled prediction that I have ever heard in any of the WCG splinter groups.
If God "engineered circumstances" to build up Dave, then why does Daves splinter only have about one thousand members? Me thinks Dave talks with fork tongue.
In the end, God will sort everything out.
Until then, it might help tremendously to heed Jesus' warning to beware of false prophets.
This just in! Dave Pack, and not Al Gore, invented the internet!
BB
"It stood in stark contrast to the usually sugarcoated, self-serving political anglings he often received from those at Pasadena."
Fast forward many years and only one word needs changed- substitute "Wadsworth" for "Pasadena." This now describes self appointed apostle "Dave" and those under him now at HQ. I was at Wadsworth to witness first-hand the anglings of men.
Hard to believe there are only a thousand true Christians, and Jesus will be returning to the beautiful little Oasis-in-the-Rust-Belt, and not Salt Lake City as previously thought?
Daves Authorized Lieography.
4:40, I was in Pasadena when the receivership was imposed and I can tell you that HWA had been spending much of his time in Tucson after his heart attack as an aid to recovery. So on the day that the receiver arrived on campus, he didn't need to "flee" to Tucson because he was already there.
He did remain in Tucson to avoid being served with papers by the State of California but he never "fled" there.
Dave, Gerry and others try to show closeness to HWA -- as if it was a good thing...
In these political contests, like the receivership crisis, there is no purity. It is clear from this statement that there is an attempt to obtain credentialing by association, though apparently informal, with HWA.
But by aligning himself with HWA ideologically at that time, he also aligns himself with Stanley Rader. Rader was then HWA's guiding light. "Radar" was also deeply distrusted by many ministers and lay members who felt that he was leading HWA in the wrong direction.
For many, then, his association with HWA in Tucson will be as an enabler of wrong thinking that many would attribute to Stanley Rader rather than to HWA. His involvement with Tucson then becomes a disqualification rather than a credential - a failure to recognize the direction of the political winds.
As everyone is seeing, this biography is proof of an early theme to what has become the main theme in Mr. Pack's universe. That theme is the elevation of himself by all means. The backdrop to his elevation in this biography is that he was just a lowly local church Pastor compared to all the big boys, and he only was the only one that held to all of what HWA taught. His historical messages in this biography of he being only one of a few who could discern and cast out demons - he being the originator of the YES program - he being the inventor of the newsstand model - he being the minister who baptized the most members - he being the minister with the largest churches - he being the only man personally trained by HWA over the phone - he being the slayer of the last big liberal (GTA) - he being the upholder of Godly dress - he being the personal advisor to HWA - he being the organizer of the greatest church picnic - are all, a plain attempt to cast himself as one that is above all others from his early years until the time of this writing. As the years moved on in his church, the the accumulation of biblical titles started to build. The messenger to the splinters (Laodicia), Apostle, Joshua the High Priest, Measurer of the temple, Ezekiel Watchman were self given titles taken to support supposed perceived roles. As 2011 came a new role developed - that of the deliverer of the Romans 8 remnant. This would happen with a spectacular event on Elul 29 2013 in which 3 evil shepherds in the splinters would die in the pulpit by a fire from heaven. This event would cause the remnant to acknowledge Mr. Pack as an Apostle and deliverer and come rushing into his organization with all of their former organization's wealth. Flush with all this cash and an acknowledged status he would go onto finishing the work and ushering in the Kingdom. The failure of this event was an opportunity by Mr. Pack to double down. Now he would elevate himself with more titles - he would now be Elijah That Prophet, types of Moses, Habakkuk, Christ and the person of worship in REV 3:9. He would then declare that he would be the builder of the third temple in Jerusalem which would be accomplished by God compelling the Jews the world over to bring to him trillions of dollars. He quickly backed off of that assertion but would proclaim what most all would think was unthinkable - he would declare that he was the Rod of Jesse (Isaiah 11:1-5). Now to get all of the cash he needs to project himself to the whole world, he started teaching 3 years ago that the Man of Sin arrival was "Imminent". He stated that this Man of Sin would defraud the whole world of their wealth on his way to sit in the middle of the splinters and this would be the fire of The Great Tribulation. Mr. Pack now demanded of his members all of their wealth as the only means to escape this fire. With this action and the loosening of the requirements for attending his organization he has a steady stream of wealth bearers and tithe payers. Now flush with money, the elevation of Mr. Pack in print, on the INTERNET and via television can continue unabated. The culmination of the elevation of Mr. Pack will be the world shattering event of Jesus Christ's return to Wadsworth, Ohio and the then world travels of Mr. Pack as the Rod of Jesse and Jesus Christ (Son of Man) as the branch doing the greatest work the world has ever seen in the first dominion of the Kingdom of God (Acts 13:41).
In the end of it all, what started as the elevation of himself on a local level in a big church via a biography grows in a grand fashion with the elevation of himself the world over in the multiple years sermon series titled "The Greatest Untold Story".
the one thing all of these false prophets you report on here have in common is their preoccupation with HWA...it's clear that they idolize him.(and I don't say that lightly)
the irony is, the great falling away actually began with HWA.
it's so easy to see, for those with eyes...
there are some organizations (likely very few) that are completely focused on God's instructions, and live and teach the membership the same...they are truly part of The Church.
Dave has any number of deeply rooted personality and religious disorders and delusions. While less than a blip
in the American, much less world scene of deviant Christianity, he is a some day PR disaster for all the splits and splinters a brewing.
Clearly a legend in his own mind.
Dave Pack says he knew and honors the man who stuck his penis into his daughters vagina. Is that correct?
Al Gore probably could not write two lines of computer code.
PACK SAID- "It was during this trying time for the Church that Mr. Pack’s relationship with the Pastor General grew much stronger"
MY COMMENT- Somewhat telling is that the COGS are the only church on Earth to use the term "PASTOR GENERAL" as far as I know.
It is such a military sounding title, and a term NOT found in the Bible in the least.
Surprising though is that they did not just go down the line and have "Pastor Colonels", "Pastor Majors", "Pastor Master Sergeants" and baptized members as "Private First Class" !
So far as I can tell, HWA was vapid; nothing. He did not do anything to advance the spread of Christianity. In fact, he corrupted it, and set it back.
By being bigger than AA Aaron, or Oral Roberts, he caused people to look to him as an archetype, and many mainstream ministers began to use the hook of fear of the end times, and to revive Old Covenant tithing, and to groom themselves to utilize the media with a “Billy Sunday” style. Rather than a Jesus Christ who was similar to Gandhi, he turned Him into the type of Messiah whom the Jews had originally expected to deliver them from their oppressors (Romans and others).
To those extents, I agree with you that HWA bastardized Christianity by mixing Old Covenant with New, and injecting toxic authority that prevents the Holy Spirit from doing His work, which is the changing and transformation of Christians from the bottom-up, one heart at a time. HWA has produced massive numbers of atheists, and may have actually been an atheist himself.
BB
The more pages written about David Pack, the more pathetic he appears, a psychologically fragile, very insecure, self-absorbed individual. In many ways he is very much like HWA, who, according to his autobiography, wanted to be someone big someday (even though he never finished high school). Here was an advertising man who's only product was HWA himelf.
Connie
You make me doubt you're even "murican.
I mean the only place in the world where they have "surgeon general" or whatever general as a generic administrative overseer title.
Ceetainly not the only church with general administrative overseers as differing from episcopal pastoral duties.
Nck
BB
Herb sure did bastardize Christianity with toxic authority. Society can be organised according to two different models. One is the military model with all it's rules and regulations (compulsory co operation) and the other is the freedom model (voluntary co operation) where people make their own decisions. The bibles instruction of not lording it over others like gentiles, and the parable of the talents means Christianity should conform to the freedom model. Herb chose the military model instead, so rights and freedom is foreign to most members. Ownership is defacto and ministers frequently over ride members decisions at whim. Members are treated like children and constantly fed spiritual milk to 'keep them in their place.'
Even some of the comments on the blog show that freedom and rights are barely grasped by many. Thanks Herb.
"Pastor Colonels", "Pastor Majors", "Pastor Master Sergeants"
HWA sure got in trouble with his Pastor Privates...
Attorney General isn't a military rank.
Inspector General isn't a military rank.
Surgeon General isn't a military rank.
It's just a formal and somewhat archaic use of English. HWA did many awful things, but calling himself "Pastor General" was a harmless acknowledgement of his factual role as the pastor administering the work of the other pastors. It's a downright humble title compared to "Apostle."
It's "General" as opposed to "Specific", not "General" as opposed to "Sergeant".
Fine , fine , fine about using the term Surgeon General et al.
But tell me ONE CHURCH anywhere that uses the term "Pastor General" , other than in the COGS??
It really is out of place in regards to a religious title.
Now Connie.
Its common in protestant circles. Indicating a "primus inter pares" status. A "first among equals".
A "first administrator over equals".
Indeed a humbler title then the invention of "ecclesiastical ranks" based on biblical function description.
Nck
@ nck,
Pastor General is actually a lesser rank than "Presiding Evangelist". Once HWA ordained his first Evangelists, the only way he could teach Ephesians 4:11 as involving ranks was to consider himself a Prophet or an Apostle.
HWA should have called himself “Bishop Armstrong”. That would have been Biblical. Problem is, that one was already taken by the descendants of Paul’s Gentile Churches (Catholics), although the Mormons and some of the African American Protestant churches use that title as well.
BB
Bishops, pastors, elders, priests...all fine with me.
What the heck does a " presiding" evangelist do?
Evangelize to all , while staying put??
Nck
Surgeon General isn't a military rank.
I remember C. Everett Koop said he should be Surgeon Admiral.
Hey, does this make Bob Thiel the “prophet general”?
BB
BB, you're not quite right. Bob's ridiculously vague "prophecies" are what make him the prophet general. Until he's the prophet specific, he's not worth listening to.
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