Sunday, June 3, 2018

Dave Pack on how two-faced the new leader of United Church of God was (and still is)

After Dave gave his farewell sermon and scores of Akron members reported him to Pasadena, Dave began the process of joining up with Global, Church of God and Rod Meredith.  After Pack was disfellowshipped from the WCG, his replacement came into the Akron to do damage control.  This man, while in WCG was busily disfellowshipping WCG members for not agreeing with the new teachings while all along he did not believe in them either. Then, just like many other of the top boys of UCG, he jumped ship with his severance package and straight into a paid job as a UCG minister. Later this same man rebelled once again and split off from UCG to form COGWA. 

Of course, Dave is just as big a hypocrite as they all still are.
“But Joseph Tkach’s statement demonstrates that I had anticipated most of the false teachings that would come, and Worldwide did make the changes that he so vehemently denied in Columbus and elsewhere. It was humorous, while also tragic, that my replacement was actively teaching new doctrines that supposedly ‘had not yet been presented by the WCG Headquarters.’
“Such was the deceit of the time—deceit attributed to me and others by those who were the real deceivers. And I include in this both the type of deceit from the Pastor General above and the type offered by my replacement who taught false (deceitful) doctrines. I wondered why my replacement never felt shot in the back by the Headquarters for whom he was so ardently cheerleading.
“My replacement would 26 months later ‘stand up for the truth,’ and leave the WCG to enter the largest splinter with over 200 drowsy Akron brethren happily following him. Incredibly—and this is its own statement about his new organization—he became its president in 2005!
“Let’s summarize. The friend I spoke with in Big Sandy would become the initial leader of the ministry in the largest splinter in 1995, and is still on its Council of Elders, and is still a regional pastor.
“The Indianapolis friend, having left his foxhole, would soon become this man’s replacement in the Cincinnati-based group, and would lead for many years the over 450 ministers that would join that organization.
“The Cleveland East friend would become the regional pastor of its headquarters region (one-tenth of the United States).
“The upset son-in-law minister who confronted me in Indianapolis about his in-laws’ concern, would go on to anchor the television program for the new splinter.
“And my replacement would quickly be a regional pastor, before going on to become president over the entire church of 20,000 attendants.
“No story of my life is complete without such facts. Of course, that these men ‘rallied in understanding’ and ‘found their voice,’ and ‘courage,’ at the last minute would only be known later. If this sounds like mocking, it is because it is. Remember Elijah with the prophets of Baal. And then remember how strong was Mr. Armstrong—and the apostle Paul—in describing grievous wolves coming among God’s flock.
“I have more respect for those who sold out completely and stayed in the Worldwide Church of God, openly accepting the changes, than for those who left professing to stand for the truth, while secretly holding to a host of false doctrines, as do their organizations.
“Oh that God’s people would look more closely at those whom they follow! But Adolf Hitler’s rule of leadership again presents itself, ‘What luck for rulers that men do not think.’”


Anonymous said...

This auto biography has the feel of a ghost writer. I base this on having read his original auto biography which was noticeably inferior. One or more persons of greater maturity edited and added to his writings.

My own experience with members who stayed with Tkach is that they don't really believe the new doctrines. They claim that they do, but the tones in their voice told me otherwise.

Anonymous said...

He should be saying, "What luck that my members don't think."

Anonymous said...

Now I'm convinced about what they say:
Appears David C. Pack doesn't Read anything beyond Herbie Booklets! At least Herbert was willing to put in whole days in the Portland library (rather than getting a job), the only problem with that was poor Herbie was a moron who couldn't discern fact from fiction and believed J.H. Allan's fantastical book was real!

Tkach was right to pull the plug on Armstrongism - and before DNA would blow Anglo-Israelism to pieces!

Anonymous said...

Dave's projecting again

RSK said...

Over 20 years later? Why are they hanging around GCI still?

Anonymous said...

“Oh that God’s people would look more closely at those whom they follow! But Adolf Hitler’s rule of leadership again presents itself, ‘What luck for rulers that men do not think.’”

This is how it should read: "Oh, that those still in RCG would look more closely at him whom they follow, listening to his unending delusional fantasies! But I have adopted Adolf Hitler's rule of leadership to my selfish desires, 'What luck for me that the members of my cult do not think.'"

Byker Bob said...

HWA picking religion as his product (requiring no investment during a depression other than the time needed to study and assemble the package) gives us a perfect example of what it would have been like if Mengele had entered the ministry. HWA used prophecy as his hook to scare people into his church, a place where nurturing was unheard of.

By any sort of logic on any planet in the universe, Armstrongism should no longer exist. Having and keeping true doctrines was supposed to be the key to God granting proper understanding of prophecy. The prophecies have not come to pass even under worst case error scenario, and now we know from dna why they never will. Failure of the prophecies also takes out what was called the key to their understanding. If the prophecies were wrong, the doctrines were also wrong. They both go hand in hand.
Plus, the originators of this farce have all died off.


Connie Schmidt said...

All of this dichotomy amongst ministers is primarily the result of them all being paid from one central location, as well as money being collected to one central location.

I cannot think of any other denomination that practices this business model.

It is convenient for control purposes that is for sure. In a normal church, with local elected board members by the laity, it decentralizes power and does not force pastors to have to bend to some national agenda, just as long as he is pleasing to the local group.

It also gives the local group more control to GET RID OF idiot ministers and the like too.

Claire Voighent said...

The fact is, they have stayed within GCI because they have accepted the changes, changes that are better for the church. Even I am in 99% agreement with the changes.

Buckeye Bob said...

David Pack is all lies, not just his "autobiography", but in every single doctrine in his cult with the misapplied name "restored church".

Hoss said...

Dave could foresee the changes, and documented the changes made (which were put in Ambassador Report) - but he didn't see fit to make an early exit.
One could say that Flurry and Amos should be credited for the earliest to complain about the changes and get fired. Gerry even had a plagiarized book in progress!

RSK said...

99% eh? Whats the 1% about?

Buckeye Bob said...

I hate the way these things are written! My friend from the east....My replacement! Why don't they just name the people? Always a doubt about who is being talked about!

Feastgoer said...

Let's put some names on these people.

Clyde Kilough became UCG President in 2005. The "Indianapolis friend" clearly refers to Victor Kubik.

"The initial leader of the ministry in the largest splinter in 1995.... still on its Council of Elders.... still a regional pastor" - is who? None of the current UCG Regional Pastors are on the COE!

“The upset son-in-law minister who confronted me in Indianapolis about his in-laws’ concern..." must refer to Darris McNeely. Who else could be an "anchor" of the telecast?

Some of this is hard to confirm, because the UCG page on Wikipedia has been cleansed of its history section and now comes across as a PR statement.

Byker Bob said...

Back in the 1950s, on the Howdy Doody childrens’ program, they had an invention called the “Fib-o-Doodle”. When anyone told a fib in its presence, a voice would come over its speaker and sing “Shame, shame, everybody knows your name, you told a fib!!!”

I wonder what might have happened if some kid had ordered one of these, and the Fib-o-Doodle that hadn’t been put away with the rest of the toys kept going off as the parents were listening to Herbert W. Armstrong on The World Tomorrow after the kids had gone to bed. LOL. Unfortunately, the parents would not have considered this to be Fruedian; they’d think the toy was possessed!

Seriously, none of HWA’s mantle covetors ever repent of the old man’s sins. They consider those sins to be license or carte blanche. So, they all lie to “get out the gospel”. By this time, it’s probably even pathological.


Byker Bob said...

Special bumper sticker for Dave Pack’s car:

“Don’t lie! Only your ACOG minister is allowed to do that!”


Anonymous said...

FYI - Feastgoer June 3, 2018 at 2:25 PM, the Internet Archive's wayback machine gives all the UCG wiki information you might need.*/

Anonymous said...

Sigmund Freud was obsessed with sex and violence. Therefore he assumed all men are obsessed with sex and violence. He even had sexual fantasies involving his mother, so he assumed that all men have such fantasies. Perhaps that is what he had to believe to lessen his own guilt and shame over the matter. But since other men don't have such fantasies, he made up the theory that they must repress them. There was no evidence to support his theories. He was just a weirdo who was trying to use psychology figure himself out. Often, the most twisted people of all go into psychology. Is that why it took psychology so long to recognize that he was a weirdo?

Am I seeing a bit of Freud in Pack? Does he have issues that he is projecting onto others?

Anonymous said...

11:45 AM "Gerry even had a plagiarized book in progress!"

What do they call it when a plagiarized Herbie booklet is, in turn, being plagiarized?

Anonymous said...

"...just as long as he is pleasing to the local group. "

YES! that way the locals are free to choose someone that will tickle their itching ears....every group can have a minister that they agree with, and the minister doesn't have to toe any doctrinal line... if God is wrong about something, the minister can correct it.

oh wait, we already have an organization like that....Unitarian Universalists...

Anonymous said...

8.03 PM
Some of Freuds ideas were right and are taken for granted today. He wasn't a complete weirdo.

Hoss said...

Anon 834 - In this case, I was referring to Gerry's Malachi's Message which was taken from Jules Dervaes' Letter to Laodicea.

nck said...


Freud gathered his information through many talks with Vienese men and especially (upperclass) women who lived under extreme societal pressure. This was a time when the British covered the "voluptuous legs" of their tables (and never in the history of mankind more brothels were accumulated per square. This was large scale repression like US television finding its escape valve in other ways. This was the time HWA was born and spawned the "enlightened" missing dimension book as a means to at least enjoy other relations than turn of the century Vienese society or Victorian England.

I like Jung far better by the way. And of course the KING Bernays.


Anonymous said...

Interesting note:

Dave Pack's Authorized biography was assembled and written by a select team of ministers/HQ employees to Pack. Some are no longer around because they could not continue to equate the man of the book with the man in reality and or they saw the pattern of the accused come to life in Pack.

But here are a few people who had the most direct impact on the Authorized biography. Jeffrey Ambrose has had the most impact on this biography, contributing the most work and writing for pack and that is why sometimes you may wonder why pack refers to himself in third person, remember this is not a autobiography it is an "Authorized" biography. This lets him get away with showcasing himself gloriously without obviously coming across as thinking highly of himself Romans 12:3

Kevin Denee - Church Administration
Charles Herzog - Church Archiver
Jeffrey Ambrose - Leads A.C., Church Administration, and Editorial

Here is the thing, almost nobody in rcg while i was there read the biography, they didn't have time. And they rarely like to mail it, because its two huge books that are expensive to mail.

Anonymous said...

Also...almost all written material is quietly changed over the years, some mistakes are pointed out by members and they are corrected, other changes are initiated at the top level, including doctrinal changes. You are most likely quoting from a source that has been edited numerous times since its launch.

I read bites of this authorized biography, on my spare time, to learn who certain people in the church were. For instance, no one knew much about Packs second wife, so i researched her in the books and i also learned some things from members who worked closely with her. As Packs first wife was dying, he already had eyes for the "nurse" (Mrs. Pack #2). What a shame, you're dying and your husband is already making moves to marry the next person. His claim as to why this was okay so soon after his 1st wife death makes the man appear as though he cannot function without a help, so much for the stellar upbringing where parents taught you independence. For pack wife numero 2 does the following: she cleans, cooks, makes coffee, hosts dinners 4 loyalists, laundry, comfort, companionship, while man, focus on making himself great in church and scripture. He needed a wife to do the mundane things he should need not be bothered with, he molded her to be the candidate. He rushed it, and justified. Im sure it took her by such surprise and it was so emotionally charged that by the time she was married she was thinking, ohhh shit, what just happened?

I 100% adore Mrs. Pack, she is the complete opposite of Dave Pack, very compassionate. I've interacted with her for years, and i grew close to her. All of our interactions included humor, passion for ideas, she is very detail oriented, doesn't think highly of herself, and she isn't afraid to roam around and talk with lay-members, members who most ministers stay away from. She is genuinely inquisitive, very gentle. And makes one feel at ease. The woman has suffered a great deal. She's lost her closest friends/children in the church due to Pack. I mention her because, in the biography, what is spoken of pack and his real life behavior are polar opposites, what is spoken about current/former wife is the complete truth.They are the embodiment of a christian woman.

I see a parallel, Pack to Mrs. Pack is Trump to Melania.

I can sense these women had no idea what ensued and by the time they came to their wits it was too late...I wouldn't say they are trapped but it would be devastating for them to leave. My heart breaks for Mrs. Pack i know inwardly she battles with herself and the dictator that is her husband he micromanages her so much, she acts like a robot in front of him, and herself without. Just think...........if Daves own children cannot stand to be around him, how hard can you imagine it must be for the wife that is bound to him, the children can leave, and his sons have done it, recently his daughter has done it. For Mrs. Pack it will probably ruin her if she left. My heart goes out to that woman!

Anonymous said...

Dave Pack's Authorized biography was assembled and written by a select team..

I believe it because David Pack can't write! have you noticed?

Hoss said...

Thanks, Anon 630. Though I knew Dave's bio was penned by another, I didn't realize it was a team effort, like Tom Swift or the Simpsons The Book Job (S23E06).

I remember getting HWA's Autobiography in 1967, and my mother cynically noted that the church's biggest piece of literature was the founder's life story. Some years ago I saw the Tkatch era edited volume, in a bookstore's giveaway box of unwanted books...

Anonymous said...

Of the 18 contributors to Pack's authorized biography, eight have left the organization and two have passed away.

Anonymous said...

Feastgoer - the "Indianapolis friend" sounds more like Richard Pinelli, who was the Indianapolis pastor who later became head of church admin in Cincinnati. Jim Franks succeeded him.

DennisCDiehl said...

"..if Daves own children cannot stand to be around him, how hard can you imagine it must be for the wife that is bound to him, the children can leave, and his sons have done it, recently his daughter has done it. For Mrs. Pack it will probably ruin her if she left. My heart goes out to that woman! "

Dave's first wife told my dad when picking up the boys after my parents were babysitting them , "You know Fred, it's not easy being married to Dave Pack."

Anonymous said...

If she was really the embodiment of a Christian woman she would take a stand and stop her husband from destroying the lives of 1000 people.

No, she sold out for money and power. She's just not a jerk about it.

Anonymous said...

“Dave Pack on how two-faced the new leader of the United Church of God was (and still is)”

The fact is that HWA set up the WCG to teach his own doctrines. That is what the WCG people were financially supporting.

Then, the sneaky, apostate Tkaches pretended to believe HWA's doctrines while secretly scheming and plotting to change everything. The Tkaches and their accomplices did this while collecting paychecks from HWA's followers in the WCG.

The ministers who still believed what HWA had taught were “wise as serpents and harmless as hirelings” under the circumstances as they collected their severance packages.

Of course Dave Pack will criticize these ministers. But consider how two-faced Dave himself is. Dave pretended to believe what HWA had taught so that HWA's followers would send their money to him, but then went on to make huge changes of his own. While Dave is criticizing everyone else, he will be setting you up for disaster. Dave Pack is the abomination that causes destitution.

Anonymous said...

Youre right, i agree but i meant in the sense that as they believe the woman is to submit to the husband that is what i meant.