When something happens you just can't explain, and it is attributed to divine intervention, that is considered a miracle.
When something happens you just can't explain, and it is attributed to a demon, that is considered a problem.
When something happens you just can't explain, and you are an atheist, that is considered a scientific unknown.
Miracles and interventions have been reported for eons and for generations. The story above is an example of what many consider could be an actual miracle. Skeptics would easily dismiss it, perhaps stating the cardinal shown was trained, or loose, or was raised with humans. The interpretation of what is or is not considered a miracle almost certainly varies from person to person. What one person knows in his heart is a miracle, another person could easily dismiss. Which leads me to believe miracles are usually deeply personal and proven personally.
Then there are the reported miracles that you find in scripture - some of them seemingly impossible. From Elijah's chariot to Balaam's Donkey to Noah's ark, the stories of extremely public - and powerful - miraculous events are all over the Old Testament. Stories of the Exodus, the Plagues seem unbelievable, especially since no one in our generation has seen anything even remotely like the stories tell.
Interestingly enough, the miracles in the New Testament are more personal. Water converted to wine. Fish and bread multiplied. Healings of the blind and the lame, and the epileptic, sanity restored to the insane, and of course, the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. And of course, the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the foundation of hope in all who profess the Christian Faith.
Focusing on the story above, here we have what could be considered a legitimate miracle. Yet for those who adhere to Armstrongism, this was not supposed to happen, because the person who passed is supposed to have been placed in soul-sleep. A typical Armstrong follower would assume that a demon transformed itself into a cardinal with the intent to deceive. However, on the other side, if this was an actual miracle, it would confirm that what we thought was the case isn't how any of it works. Then again, if you show this to an atheist, you could think of 200 reasons why this is a naturally occurring event. (It liked her perfume?)
How is it that you view the story above? How do you view miracles and miraculous events? Have you ever experienced one? Do you believe miracles and miraculous events are actual occurrences or complete coincidence of random fortunate events? How do you believe? Have your beliefs changed in any way since or because of Armstrongism?
Please provide your insight in the comments below if you feel so inclined.
23 comments:
You know, I hesitate to comment on this thread but I will anyway.
I believe that if it wasn’t for God’s intervention in the way of miracles, I would not be alive today. I’m not talking about guidance or making choices. I’m talking about direct, life-saving miracles.
There have been many answered prayers, many interventions, and times that, if I were to tell about them, I would be told that I was mistaken, crazy, or hallucinating. I’m not going to, though, because I don’t want to open myself up to ridicule, or judgement. Yes, I’m a coward.
I will say this. I was a small child when I was blessed with my first answered prayer, and at that time my faith was totally and permanently solidified. I knew then that God exists, that He was there, and that He hears me.
That didn’t mean that I was spared from hard times. Far from it. But, through even the worst of those times, even while in wcg, I knew He was there. Since I have left wcg, my faith is stronger than ever. I am alive. That’s proof enough for me.
One of the promises for Jesus disciples is they would be able to perform the same and mightier miracles. Since no one is doing this today, then their are two possible conclusions- all the miracle accounts were fabricated or the rules of the game have changed- for reference the various Ted talks about whether we are living in a simulation.
I wouldn't say no one is doing these things today. I just don't think that they are in the ways that we expect. Remember Jesus condemned certain people who claimed to be miracle workers as false saying "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity, I never knew you". Yet..
Pharmaceuticals are a miracle.
Clean, healthy drinking water is a miracle.
Electricity and all of it's sub-benefits is a miracle.
The ability to control heat and cold via tech is a miracle.
Modern transportation - that's a miracle.
And so much more.
Because we understand how it/they work(s) does not make it any less a miracle. Anyone who jumped two millennia to today would be frightened out of their gourds at what we can do today. We aren't scared because we understand it. If we didn't understand it, we'd be more than a little freaked, wouldn't you say?
The blind can see, the deaf can here, the lame are walking - all because of the miracles of technology that could never have been foreseen or predicted 2,000 years ago.
As far as genuine, miraculous, God-inspired breaking-the-rules-of-logic real miracles - I tend to believe they are very common, but very personal. Just like in the video embedded in the post.
If people claiming Christianity these days were given "magical" powers to work miracles, do you think that Jesus would approve or condemn their actions?
I personally no longer believe in soul sleep. There are too many accounts of near death experiences that indicate there is more on the other side. Many people talk about seeing loved ones that have already passed as they approach the end. In no way does it take away anything from God and true miracles. Jesus's soul certainly wasn't sleeping during his time in the tomb, he was preaching to those spirits below.
When watching so-called faith healers, why have I or anyone else ever seen anyone have a limb restored? Doesn't God restore limbs? If there is a God that heals then wouldn't there be "many" documented cases of limbs being miraculously restored?
TLA, a third possibility is that no one alive today has been considered worthy of being given such miraculous power. I believe "miracles" still happen, and I wonder if the explanation of such phenomena now is the power of many people putting their request out into the universe. Yeah, sounds New Age-y, but there's a lot going on we don't understand.
My Comment: I have read and studied the works of many recognized Christian teachers and leaders for over sixty years and can verify that there are many things that can be consider to support Christianity without solving some of the scriptures that may appear to be questioned by human reasoning.
I do not try to explain questions in raising these issues since it is not an act of love for another person if it destroys the faith and hope Christianity offers to humanity. ASB
Is it possible that this cardinal could one day become Pope?
Then after he dies, he could become a saint, since he committed a miracle.
SHT, you're either equivocating between or conflating two meanings of *miracle.* The one the posting implies is "a supernatural event or phenomenon." The one you are using is "an event or phenomenon to marvel at, whatever its origin or cause."
My favorite phrasing of the second definition comes from Ambrose Bierce's *The Devil's Dictionary*: "MIRACLE, n. An act or event out of the order of nature and unaccountable, as beating a normal hand of four kings and an ace with four aces and a king."
Unfortunately, the well has been poisoned. Alleged faith healing has been used as part of a mass marketing campaign or fund raising. Benny Hinn reminds me of the staged WWF matches.
Most likely, God, being savy to this, would keep the miracles on a private, personal basis in our times. Even Jesus told some whom He healed not to tell anyone who it was that had healed them.
BB
I've noticed that we don't see miracles like amputees receiving new limbs. The healing miracles are usually curing cancer and such.
Its mind boggling that Christ healed people having diseases such as leprosy. Leprosy is a virus that would be in a persons hair, dead skin and cloths. Even using Star Trek technology, it would be difficult to cure. I assume that God uses sub atomic matter technology that somehow tunes in to every virus and destroys it.
SHT said:
Pharmaceuticals are a miracle.
Clean, healthy drinking water is a miracle.
Electricity and all of it's sub-benefits is a miracle.
The ability to control heat and cold via tech is a miracle.
Modern transportation - that's a miracle.
And so much more.
Of course, these aren't Biblical miracles by any stretch of the imagination. These all came about by human ingenuity, knowledge, good science and research. It is indeed much less than the kind of miracle the posting is suggesting unless I am missing something.
Concerning animals and their loyalty and affection. Animals are much more consciously aware than we have given them credit for in the past. Dogs walk hundreds of miles to get home or lie grieving at the grave of a loved master. Monkeys greet and hug each other when separated for long periods of time. Every sort of animal is capable it seems of cuddling up to other animals and humans when you'd think they'd not do so.
We humans tend to assign meaning to things that we need to mean something to us that might be far more innocent than the meaning we assign it. It's what we do when seeking confirmation and affirmations especially with regards to our deceased family. Everyone can find something I suppose. After my father passed , I was sitting at my desk and heard, loud and clear, in my head, my dad's voice simply call out my name. That was it. What was that? I have no idea. Never happened again and amounted to nothing.
I do have to chuckle that God evidently still forbids humans in heaven to actually show up in person if even for a moment to tell the living all is well. Lazarus and the Rich man and all that. Sending a bird as a sign is nice but you'd think God would have inspired the bird not to smash itself into the window to get attention lol. Perhaps a small peck at the window would have been more impressive. You know, "I stand at the window and peck and whosoever hears my pecking and lets me in, with him shall I come in and eat and they with me" Revelation 3:20) and all that.
Evidently the Deity did not forward the bird of window issues. :)
"When something happens you just can't explain, and it is attributed to divine intervention, that is considered a miracle...The interpretation of what is or is not considered a miracle almost certainly varies from person to person. What one person knows in his heart is a miracle, another person could easily dismiss. Which leads me to believe miracles are usually deeply personal and proven personally."
As you have pointed out, there is no agreement and no consensus on even what the difference is between a miracle and a coincidence between people of the same religious faith. Even worse, if it were a miracle, how does anyone know to which pantheon of deities/demons to attribute it?
Given that cacophony of disagreement for similar events, can it be remotely correct to conclude that anything was, or even could be, "proven"? People can, however, "personally" jump to a conclusion. But simply jumping to a knee-jerk conclusion is kind of the opposite of "proving" something, is it not?
We are frequently confronted with events that seem odd or inexplicable. Granted, it is human to hazard some sort of guess at an explanation anyway.
What does the Responsible Man do? Does he guess the most probable thing is probably what happened? Or does he guess that the least probable thing is probably what happened?
Mundane, natural explanations are always more probable than supernatural ones. Supernatural explanations are the least probable.
If you don't see the contradiction in guessing that the least probable thing is probably what happened, then I can't help you.
Finally, the fact that there is no agreement or consensus regarding the improbable conclusions to which people can and do jump for similar events, doesn't that chaos of contradictory responses point to a disconnect from reality? The product of so many independent individual fantasylands? These improbable conclusions can't all be right, but they can all be wrong. And their improbability alone suggests that probably they are all are wrong.
Then there are the reported miracles that you find in scripture - some of them seemingly impossible. From Elijah's chariot to Balaam's Donkey to Noah's ark, the stories of extremely public - and powerful - miraculous events are all over the Old Testament. Stories of the Exodus, the Plagues seem unbelievable, especially since no one in our generation has seen anything even remotely like the stories tell.
It is not t
Some of the bible's stories would not leave evidence behind. Did Elisha's axe head really float? Yes, it's unbelievable, but if it did happen, we would not expect that to leave fingerprints behind.
There are other bible stories that are not just unbelievable because no one in our generation has seen anything even remotely like them, but also because the the earth itself bears witness against them.
The flood, the exodus, and Joshua's conquest are three examples of bible stories that would all leave plenty of evidence behind. And yet, where that evidence would certainly be found, it is absent. Not only is it generally unbelievable that things like that happen, these things are specifically contradicted by the geologic and archaeologic record.
Even if different sorts of things happened then from the sorts of things that happen now, these specific bible stories didn't even happen then. The earth tells us so. Yes, it was there, and it knows.
"Interestingly enough, the miracles in the New Testament are more personal. Water converted to wine. Fish and bread multiplied. Healings of the blind and the lame, and the epileptic, sanity restored to the insane, and of course, the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost. And of course, the miracle of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, the foundation of hope in all who profess the Christian Faith."
Jesus mostly did not perform original "miracles." The new testament authors just copied "pagan" miracles from the religions around them.
God-men, like Gilgamesh, Hercules, and Theseus, had a human mother and a deity for a father, had miraculous birth narratives, and went on to perform famed works that mortals could not accomplish. The priests of Dionysus routinely turned water into wine. Asclepius performed healing miracles and raised people from the dead. A disciple of Buddah walked on water, became frightened and began to sink. Zalmoxis, Romulus, and Osiris all suffered a passion, died and were resurrected, underwent apotheosis, and subsequently made salvation available.
The new testament is simply other "pagan" religions, especially Hellenistic ones, blended with Judaism and packaged in order to appeal to a Jewish audience. The fact it's written in Greek, not Hebrew reflects its Hellenistic origins. The authors couldn't even read Hebrew (yes, even Paul) because they all had to rely on the Greek Septuagint!
It proved to have an appeal that would eventually spread far beyond its original target audience.
I know what I have experienced and witnessed. No one will sway me from that knowledge. My relationship with my God is personal and strong. That is all I have to say.
Whatever conclusion you are going to draw has to do with your world view, compiled over a lifetime. Hopefully, you are motivated to do good, to be ahead of simple random probability, and to live a productive and uplifting life. If you are not, it’s time to re-examine, and to find more effective outlooks and solutions.
Just because the ACOG God concept, and the practical application thereof totally screwed most of our lives, does not mean that God, faith, or belief have no redeeming value whatsoever. The goodness and badness scale encompasses the full range of believers and nonbelievers alike. Status of saved or unsaved is an entirely different discussion.
BB
Firstly can I just clarify IMHO what this lady experienced with respect to the cardinal bird was not a miracle, but a case of synchronicity.
SHT said: "The blind can see, the deaf can here, the lame are walking - all because of the miracles of technology that could never have been foreseen or predicted 2,000 years ago."
With respect SHT however incredible and amazing the marvels of modern technology are today I would hesitate to label them a miracle or lump them together with the miracles of the Bible. Going through disease and pain myself and seeing loved ones suffer the same--or worse!--I quickly came to the depressing realization that the only options afforded by the medical industry were drugs (that usually came with a host of unpleasant side effects) and/or surgery--and that's if the disease was treatable! So IMHO there's a huge difference between the miraculous healings performed by God in the OT/NT and the "cures" that are performed by the medical industry today via man-made technology. For one thing, a real divine, supernatural miracle like what Christ performed only took a word or a few words in prayer or a touch. It didn’t require any man-made technology or for the sick to ingest or be injected with a concoction of drugs or be sliced up and the diseased body part removed. For me Teryn Hedlund’s supernatural healing is a case of a genuine modern miracle.
Dennis said: "After my father passed , I was sitting at my desk and heard, loud and clear, in my head, my dad's voice simply call out my name. That was it. What was that? I have no idea. Never happened again and amounted to nothing."
I’ve had similar experiences Dennis. I recall being on holiday by myself and I was lying on my hotel bed and as clear as if she was right next to me I heard my mom’s voice call out my name! Of course, in my case my mom was very much alive. I texted my sister back home asking if everyone was ok and she said mom and everybody were just fine. So I basically put it down to a kind of auditory hallucination.
Some miracles might be real, but many are faked. I'm thinking of Benny Hinn here.
But, to get on TV, you have to please the controllers of TV. TV is controlled by an international Luciferian cult of bankers. Sounds crazy until you read books like "The Illuminati in Hollywood" by Mark Dice and "Fake News" by the same author, and many other such books by various people.
People like David Icke (who has ties to British intelligence) are disinformation artists who try to make all "conspiracy theories" seem stupid. That's why he pretends to believe in shape-shifting reptiles. He also tells people voting is a waste of time. This is to marginalize people politically. Also read "Media Control" by Noam Chomsky.
Miracles can be faked nowadays. The military once had a plan to project a hollagram of Allah into the sky to convince Iraqis to surrender.
Personal miracles cannot be faked or explained away. If anyone on this blog has experienced a personal miracle, they will attest to that. Public miracles CAN be explained more often than not because they are done for the public to promote one agenda or another. When I watch slight-of-hand magicians on television, I know that they are tricksters deceiving the eyes. Anything on television can be done via computer graphics or animation. PERSONAL miracles are a different matter altogether. Who here has experienced a personal miracle that cannot be explained other than by supernatural phenomenon, other than myself?
How many deaf spirits were vast"Out!Out! by Akron Ohio:s Earnest Strangely?
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