Anonymous notes:
"What is this?
"Isn't RLDEA now basically a "zombie" ministry promoting sermons by a dead guy? It's GTA version 2.0."
"Isn't RLDEA now basically a "zombie" ministry promoting sermons by a dead guy? It's GTA version 2.0."
"Regarding RLDEA being a "zombie" ministry...
I get that observation if the person sees no value in the works of Ron Dart. No problem there.
But some of us believe that Ron's stuff is of really high quality. For that reason, we enthusiastically promote it. We believe that it can be helpful to those who wish to better understand the Bible."
--Wes White
But some of us believe that Ron's stuff is of really high quality. For that reason, we enthusiastically promote it. We believe that it can be helpful to those who wish to better understand the Bible."
--Wes White
Also noted:
"Ron Dart was an excellent teacher, very little that I disagreed with. (maybe he was wrong, maybe I was, or maybe we both were) I'm glad his material is still available."
As I mentioned as well as others, if one quotes from the Bible, Old Testament or New, to promote their own view of how all of life should or must be, they too are trusting in a Zombie Ministry. All the authors of the Bible are dead and those dead men have been telling their tales and repeated by millions for over 2000 years. Believing that "well that's different" because the original now dead Zombie Apostles were inspired by God directly and meant to pass it all on. Actually that's not true as none of them thought anything they taught was for anyone but those of their own generation and would not be written up and circulated for two thousand years into the future, but that's another hot topic.
In 2006, just three short years after the death of GTA, hearing him again on the radio and experiencing the phenomenon of locally popular radio evangelists, now dead, still filling the airwaves and promoted by their surviving families to keep it all going, I found such a practice strange. But now, I have mellowed with the realization that anyone using scriptures today is practicing the same kind of Zombie Ministry that still goes on. Whether it is on tape, video or in books, new or old, bringing up the dead to continue their ministry as if they are not dead is indeed Necro- Evangelism. So one has to at least admit that all religions by now are Zombie Perpetuated as those long dead still blast out their teachings to the living.
Just for fun:
Necro-Evangelism-When Dead Men Do Tell Tales
Dennis Diehl 2006
"There is a phenomenon in evangelism that is quite strange to me. I call it Necro-Evangelism and it is where local or even national radio evangelical and fundamentalist churches continue to play the sermons of long dead founders to convert the masses. There are at least three major churches in my area and one I know of nationally that practices Necro-Evangelism and I'd like to explore the pitfalls of this if I might. (Update: Whether they are "pitfalls" or not I no longer care.)
I find it funny in a macabre way to hear, usually the surviving son of the now dead evangelist, inviting the audience to stay tuned for a message from my now long dead father and pastor so and so.
Some of these evangelistic types have been dead for just a few years, and so we might attribute his ongoing ministry as shock that the man died on the part of the family who has no clue on how to keep the business going. Others have been dead for decades and I suspect that as long as the tapes play and can be recopied, they will continue to preach right up until the Second Coming and maybe beyond! Usually there is a college or "work" that the family of the now deceased evangelist has inherited, or stuck with, to be maintained and, while the current family members might be up to the task, it's just good to hear the founder as if he was alive and well on the air. Others, to me, seem like the type that would never themselves be able to do what dad did with evangelism, but can't give up on the programming dad put in their heads nor the bucks it still can generate. That is an observation about method, not sincerity.
People hate change and this delays reality for many who have grown up on the words of the evangelist, now dead. One local college where I live continues to play the sermons of the long dead founder even though two or three generations have taken over the family business of evangelizing since his death. I don't believe I have ever heard a sermon on the air by any of the sons, all identically named after the founder save for the II,III or IV behind the name. Some Christian evangelists might be happy to return to glory, but you'd never know it as family desperately tries to keep things the same as always before he became a Necro-Evangelist. Why do we do this and what is the message it sends?
First of all, it matters not if it is a right or wrong thing to do. I am sure the argument is "well if we had Jesus or Paul on tape, would we not play it?" Well yes of course. We read their words every day still so hearing them on tape would just be a technological upgrade. However, pseudo-taperipha would probably be a problem and all we need is controversy over the "Jesus Tapes" to add to the already confusing topic of Biblical errancy issues.
So while Necro-Evangelism might keep the family church, college or business going a few more generations, is it the thing to do really and what message does it send? One advantage is that, indeed, it does buy the unskilled or founder beaten children time to regroup and figure out what to do now that dad is gone. All their life they had preached that the Second Coming was going to for sure be in their lifetime but now what? Usually the first generation founds something, the second maintains it, and the third loses it all. Necro-Evangelism can postpone the Necro-evangelist having to being shown to be mistaken as they all are, for a time, but not for long.
1. If family is involved, Necro-evangelism tells the audience that the sons do not have the conviction or skills that dad may have had but aren't willing to give it up as something dad did but we don't wish to do. So we play dad's sermons and don't have to come up with our own, live ones.
In my town, one such family member certainly does not have the voice quality or sound of conviction of his dad for sure, so I can see why he might wish to have dad keep it all going. He confines himself to introducing "my deceased dad, Dr...." and selling his tapes and even the library books his dad cherished, which obviously he doesn't. But he also has another line of work from what I understand, so does not depend on his Necro-Evangelist dad for his sole income.
2. Necro-Evangelism sends the message the survivors are spiritually lazy, but again, just can't give up on the potential to have a following or keep it all going. The second generation makes forays into the world of evangelism, usually getting caught up in politics more than dad did because down deep they know most of what dad either predicted or said did not really happen that way, and they just aren't convicted the same way dad was.
Dad kept them out of "the world", and darn it, they are going to see it before they become Necro-Second-Generation-Evangelists too. Since dad impacted their lives with his own worldview, and often not in a very good way, they just don't have the same need to pass it along with dad the Necro-Evangelist's same fervor. In fact, they can't. So they busy themselves with producing dad's tapes and books and don't have to do much that shows their own creativity. They can run for public office or lecture as they wish, but keeping a ball rolling is much easier than getting it started. Anyone can be made the next president of a Necro-Evangelical College or Pastor of a Necro-Evangelistic Church. Starting the sucker is the hard part. Keeping it going can be a challenge but if we keep dearly departed dad in the picture, it is easier for sure.
3. Necro-Evangelism sends the message that the Necro-Evangelist knew all there was to know about the Bible and all related topics. There is nothing new to learn or even unlearn, since dad made no theological mistakes, which is not true. Since we all like to hear the "old, old story, let dad explain it over and over. This is one thing that is wrong with religion in general. It supposes that all it's spokesmen had it right to begin with. If they could read the bible, tell a few good stories, keep you interested and convince you that the reading was the same yesterday, today and forever, bingo!...why change a winning game? Problem is that for every tape played, there are many that can't be for they are either dated by comments made during the sermon or even the family realizes that how or what dad said that day is not true or not appropriate today so let's just not play that one. So you're really not getting the whole man, you are getting the "Best All Time Hits of the Necro-Evangelist," as selected by the next generation. That's kinda no fair to me!
4. Most of those that had been inspired by the now Necro-Evangelist are now themselves Necro-Christians so they aren't even around to hear dad anymore either. They were all about the same age and have long since moved on to other heavenly realms. The kids of those who loved the now Necro-Evangelist aren't going to be inspired by a dead man. Sorry, they just aren't. They will feel the above three points even if they don't voice it. Kids aren't stupid and will see what generations II and III might be up to and how lame it is. These kids tend to find churches by saying "as for me and my house, we shall serve a living evangelist" and not just the memory of the good ol' days when the parents thought the now Necro-Evangelist could do or say no wrong. I used to pastor a church that on way too many occasions sent out taped sermons from the then living Apostle and occasional Evangelist. It was hard enough when they were alive, don't make me listen when they are dead!"
30 comments:
This is silly.
Is there a live person who ministers to people as part of RLDEA? Jesus left a bunch of live ministers behind after he died. So did Herbert Armstrong. Ron Dart doesn't appear to have ordained any successors to carry out his ministry, and there don't even appear to be any live ministers who have taken it as their job to minister on behalf of Ron Dart.
This doesn't invalidate the usefulness of Ron Dart's recorded messages, but it is silly (or an unreasonable stretch) to compare RLDEA to the Roman Catholic Church or the Worldwide Church of God. The former is plainly a "zombie ministry" in a way that the latter two are not. This article is fun enough and worth thinking about, but ultimately it is just word games and is beside the point.
We wouldn’t be having this discussion if the topic were music, or movies, or art. As nearly as I can ascertain, Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughan and Lynyrd Skynyrd are still huge, and newer, younger fans stumble upon, enjoy, and even learn to play their music. Their heirs receive continuing compensation and royalties for their catalogues. Also, in a different branch of the arts, people still watch and enjoy “Gone with the Wind” or “Rebel Without a Cause”. Van Gogh and Dali are still discussed and interpreted in university level art classes.
I have no lost love for the teachers of Armstrongism, but let’s face it. The only reason we are having this discussion is that certain ones object to the perpetuation of religion. Last time I checked, our country’s founding documents ensured freedom of religion, which also includes an individual’s freedom not to practice religion.
Several years ago, one of our local TV stations broadcast some of the old classic programs made by Bishop Fulton J Sheen. I remembered hearing his name numerous times as a child in the ‘50s, because he was amazingly popular. So, guess what! I watched several of those shows, and there were a few nuggets I gleaned from them. He definitely had mass appeal, and resonated even with non-Catholics. I didn’t feel as if watching Bishop Sheen constituted some sort of perversion involving the dead. In fact, it was not unlike dusting off some old Buddy Holly vinyl, except it was on a different level. Bishop Sheen was just as much a part of our national culture as Buddy Holly, in fact I’m sure some would even say moreso.
Whatever we think of Ron Dart (we’ve even had atheists compliment him for the content of his character here), huge numbers of people who hated the Satanic power structure of Armstrongism have derived continuing value from Ron’s teachings. He shed and rose above HWA’s despotism, and was largely seen as being a cut above. Why shouldn’t his materials be preserved for those who would enjoy them, just like some Hendrix outtakes? Personally, I certainly won’t be listening to Ron’s old stuff, but I also won’t be ridiculing those who do as participating in necromancy.
BB
I got tired of watching The Walking Dead - this may make a good replacement.
Plenty of bad guys and other groups to battle.
A mission (the first years) for a goal that was a fraud and did not exist.
If you get bitten, you turn into a zombie (afterlife).
But less gore - I think....
Any volunteers to play Rick?
Plenty of mainstream ministries live on, long after their founders died. They're on radio all the time:
> Apostolic Faith ministries - S.C. Johnson, died 1961
> Through the Bible - J. Vernon McGee, died 1988
> Ligonier/Renewing Your Mind - R.C. Sproul, died December 2017
> Koinonia House/"66-40" - Chuck Missler, died 2018
The thinking is that the Bible, and the "truth" being taught, is timeless. And the benefits will be eternal.
Herbert Armstrong thought it was good to have new presenters replace him on TV, after his death. Too bad some groups don't think so, and seem to worship HWA.
"I also won’t be ridiculing those who do as participating in necromancy."
This is the least helpful, very 'triggering,' and most juvenile article yet.
Resembles a deranged or impaired rant.
Imagine a former fine art painter dissing deceased painters *just because they had died and their work was still on display.
Now imagine a former pastor... who knows if he gave their eulogy.
New fascination with death isn't about helping survivors of a cult.
TL/DR, just skimmed.
Well, with this line of reasoning, I guess we should burn all the books written by those who are now deceased, destroy the paintings of long dead artists, and only listen to songs of live artists. And when our relatives die, I guess we should get rid of anything they owned. Oh, and don’t read any of their letters. They’re dead now
NOT!
I'm reading a book by Thomas Paine. He died in 1809. Some truths are timeless.
Did a zombie put the RLDEA website together?
How are potential listeners supposed to navigate their way around that white minefield? No dates when sermons were preached, no summaries on what the sermon is about, no indication if they are Holy Day related sermons, no catergories nothing.
Would Ron Dart of liked that website? I don't think so.
The problem with listening to Ron Dart now is that one of his greatest strengths was saying how it was, in the moment, regarding both society and the state of the church.
I always remember what he said when 9/11 happened about them quoting Isaiah on the steps of congress about rebuilding but they had not thought the context of the scripture out and it had shocked him.
How he would call out all the other pompous splinter Pastors for the false alarm of the world ending on 1st Jan 2000. Many supposedly grounded pastors were preaching about it. ONLY Ron Dart called them out.
He said we will switch our computer's off in Dec 31st and on Jan 1st we will switch them back on. All the minister's preaching otherwise should be ashamed of themselves.
Ron Dart saying how it was died when he did. That makes a contuinning ministry sad and painful.
I just found it odd the first time to hear GTA on the radio and once I believe on TV after his death as the family endeavored to keep him going. Mark Armstrong did not seem interested in going on the air himself but was in keeping the Church going.
Here in Greenville, Bob Jones, the originally contemporary of HWA is still on the radio while his three or four generations of sons and grandsons keep the college going. None of them are on the radio or TV themselves as far as I know. They manage dad's dead craziness and at Bob Jones University, where WCG would look absolutely liberal, it can be crazy.
I'd think we'd better understand the point more if after Flurry or Pack dies, we still get to hear their radio and TV presentations as others behind the scenes to keep PCG or RCG going. I don't think you will find Flurry's son all that able to inspire. Gerald didn't much either. Dave Pack has no one who would even want to keep him going without playing his old stuff.
This is not about artists and authors and the preservation of ideas worth preserving. I think we'd agree that at least Dave Pack's, Gerald Flurry's, Bob Thiel's and many others in the prophecy and legalistic mode don't have ideas worth preserving by their dead presence in radio, TV or YOUTUBE kept going by their families who won't pick up the ball sucessfully themselves.
The posting is actually an observation about religious families keeping quasi religious empires going after the death of the founder and while it might make the surviving members feel better for a time, it will not appeal to the next generation of seekers who will not get their theology and religious views from dead evangelists in this day and age. While one might appreciate the writings of early science, geology, paleontology, cosmology and such, i'd refer to the living today who have taken their contribution and expanded our understanding of it all way beyond that which they knew in their day.
The posting has a more narrow focus on religious families keeping it going. It is common here in Greenville with the adult children not actually picking up the mantle themselves.
Long live the artist, author and clear and critical thinker along with everyone else who did and wrote down intelligent and inspiring truths that never grow old of course.
In short, when Dave Pack dies and if anyone endeavors to keep him going to preserve the church and pay for the empire (who that might be is beyond me), people here would howl. lol
Actually, I regret posting this nonsense! :) My transition from the PNW and the Willamette Valley in the 60 degree area to the South Carolina, not in the 60's and not that is hasn't been worth it, she is, has caught up with me. It took too long to get back to work in the transition.
Besides Wes White is a good buddy of mine and I thought he made a good point about RLDEA despite Ron Dart, who was a very good teacher and not cut from WCG cloth ultimately having died.
Anything one contributes in life that is helpful and informative still is, of course, how the real world of knowing and learning works. However too, the concept of "Zombie Ministry" is a common thing here in the south as noted.
It's August. Summer filler time. I'd still enjoy some of you who comment regularly to contribute a posting or two along the way on your own views since moving on. I'd especially enjoy NEO explaining not what he thinks in glittering generalities atheists must believe or not believe but what he believes it's all about for himself and what his and others as well, have come to believe about their own lives and the meaning they assign to it.
Personally, I don't think anywhere near, as an atheist, what NEO assigns me to think. One size does not fit all. I don't mind every atom in my body being born in the furnace of an exploding star over billions of years. It doesn't make me feel small or insignificant. It makes me feel large and all part of the one grand thing. I have a "spiritual" side in the sense of wonder and awe at the universe, solar system and planet we get to live on for a very short time. I also don't fear being punished for eternity for not getting everything exactly right in that hair's breadth of time allotted to me.
So if SHT and NCK can do it, so can others. What do you actually believe for YOU. Other's would appreciate knowing for the sake of discussion and growing through the WCG experience. We don't all have to match or even agree. It's just nice to see how others have actually moved on in personal belief and practice or non-practice.
And finally, I admit to a certain being pissed at the moment at a former classmate who ambushed me with fundamentalist bullshit and condemnation as in "shame on you for destroying the faith of good people" etc, at Banned on a posting of a very loving and honest tribute to my ex wife who died six months ago, I wrote on the Ambassador Obituary page. It was an ambush and she hit and ran. She was simply rude as hell in a very inappropriate place to be so. I took the obituary down because, while she could block my response, I did not find a way to delete her rancor and "this is one of the reasons I detest zealous Christians" judgments. Others jumped in with her with one saying "Oh you are THAT Dennis Diehl", shame on me and she hoped I'd repent before it was too late and affiliated herself with UCG.
I did not post my tribute to Karen and the kind and loving person she was, who I dragged all over the East Coast for decades in service to the church and our family and all the stress that went with the job both locally and certainly from on high to have the topic switched to me. It was just rude. I almost wrote her husband, also a former AC friend, who I perceive is a minister in another denomination now to have a little chat with her about minding her own business.
While my transition from ministry to real life was messy in just about every way, it was my mess to deal with and mine to clean up and move on wiser for it all and not of those that never really recovered.
There, I feel better. Thanks for listening..
That’s ok, Dennis. I don’t think anyone has to worry about the splinter leaders dying and leaving a whole legacy behind for millions of people to listen to and “enjoy” as do artists and authors who had something worthy to read or look at or listen to. At most, maybe a few “tens” of people might listen to their drivel. Whenever I tell someone about wcg or armstrong, they usually don’t have a clue who I’m talking about. And I really don’t fear them being a question on the Jeopardy board. LOL. Rest easy.
Certainly not a surprise that Joe Tkach Sr. does not have much of a nostalgia following, nor a "Zombie Ministry". The so called Apostle, was a bore, a bull in the china shop, non - charismatic nincompoop.
I believe HWA picked him for those exact reasons, thinking he would be too stupid to try and upset the apple cart and gravy train. HWA guessed wrong!
One of the most important things for an organization is succession planning .
HWA failed miserably. His reject, RCM, did a good job at LCG. Still the same old LCG with some cost improvements - closed the vanity University for example.
Dennis, too many things motivating you that are going on in the background, things that most of us could not possibly know. It is unfortunate that indoctrinated individuals (the zombies) reacted as they did to your tribute to your ex-wife. But, that was at another venue. If I recall correctly we reacted in a more compassionate fashion here on this site.
Also, at AC, I had a classmate who had matriculated to AC from Bob Jones University. In speech class, he was constantly pointing out the comparative strictness at Bob Jones, and expressing gratefullness for his new-found freedoms at AC which would have been unthinkable at Bob Jones.
Last night, I was thinking to myself that there will always be people who will not let any pro-God comment or statement simply pass. They feel compelled to immediately attack, and that’s the way they’ll always be. At least now, I understand just a little more completely what is motivating you. Some people on that other site yanked your chain bigtime, rather than pausing, forgetting sides for the moment, and reacting with graciousness and humanity during one of life’s toughest situations. It’s unfortunately an example of the continued power Armstrongism wields over all of us decades after we left. They don’t always play fair. They play to win, often hitting below the belt. We need to find more effective and complete ways of disempowering them, although perhaps that is not completely possible in this lifetime.
BB
I saw the comments made by the person on the Ambassador Obituaraties FB page. It certainly was a nasty hit job and disgusting. Then, after saying the filth she did she immediately blocked Dennis so he could not see what she wrote. To add to it, another smug self-righteous bitter woman popped on and defended the original woman who made the comments. I knew the mother of the original women who made the comments and know for a fact her mother would have been appalled to see what her daughter wrote. Seeing that kind of hate just further reinforces why I keep this blog going. Armstrongism has breed self-righteousness into the minds of far too many people who feel they have the right to diminish and put down anyone who disrupts their cocooned world. I cannot imagine a World Tomorrow filled with these hateful people being rulers of people as they pretend to be gods.
NO2HWA, if this nasty commenter is the wife of a splinter minister, maybe you should forward the comment to the splinter's director of ministry, asking whether such commentary reflects what they expect of their ministerial couples. The woman has a right to share her opinion, but opinions have consequences. Let her husband feel some discomfort, just as she discomforted Dennis. That's the Old Testament in action, right? An eye for an eye...
Thanks BB n No2. It's been a complicated couple of decades. I just resented getting ambushed in the context of my honoring Karen having spent a healing time with her where we laughed n cried together and forgiveness flowed between us just 6 weeks or so before she died. We addressed the hard things and it was all good.
I love some here regardless of apparent differences with some of my perceptions, because they: are of my generation, their fathers hail from my cultural perspective, are prolific writers journalism grade, uphold liberties (no2hwa will be named), have the dryest wry humor, have unique perspectives.
Yeah, "the farmers and the cowmen should be friends."
I"m working my way to vacation as some might have observed. Therefore this increasingly mentally unstable posting pinpointing exactly some of your qualities. I believe it is a human prerogative to make mistakes too. At times it constitutes a short cut for growth.
Doesn't the fear of zombies constitute the fear of stalling, the fear of stopped growth and remaining the same unchanged, the fear of acting on impulse rather than thought, the fear of being a living dead.
Nck
It's really weird to witness partisanship (polarity) rob people of their humanity. And, it happens to both sides. In the early 2,000's when I was a practicing atheist/agnostic, there was a discussion on another very popular dissident forum. An official from the GTAEA weighed in, making several comments from his perspective. The discussion escalated into a free for all, and one of the atheist ladies who had been a member of ICG commented that she was sorry that she had offered her condolences when the man's wife had recently died, that she was retracting them. And, I believe she took the hateful comments even deeper, but it's been a number of years, so some of the details have faded. I cringed when I read them, though. . Someone from our (at the time) atheist team had gone way overboard, had unloaded on this guy apparently while he was still dealing with his grief, and I couldn't fathom how anyone could get to a level of hatred where they could do such a thing, regardless of differences in belief.
Anyway, I got the man's email address, and emailed to him stating that not all of us atheists felt as that woman did, I for one was mortified by what had been said, and I offered my deep condolences for his loss. We actually exchanged email for a couple of weeks. The man told me all about his wife, sent pictures, and even shared that he believed his marriage did not end with his wife's death. He was looking forward to it continuing in the Kingdom. In the course of the discussion, from the captions on the pictures, I learned that his wife was one of my best friend's sister. The takeaway is that just because you have differences in faith, it doesn't need to mean that you are enemies, or need to treat one another inhumanely. We both enjoyed the email exchange. Actually, I blame HWA's shunning doctrine for dehumanizing us, and for originating much of the enmity we've all experienced.
And, of course, in Dennis's case, now we learn that someone has hit him with similar inhumanity, only the sides have been reversed. This is also kind of freaky for me, in that the wives who died were both sisters of friends whom I had made at original SEP in Tejas, and the SEP friendships had continued at AC.
BB
Well, this woman was filled with so much animosity and vitriol that there was no redemptive commonality. She is a sad indication as to what rabid Armstrongims does to a person.
Dennis, I read your comments about the kick in the guts you got when you posted your comments about Karen over at the other site. It was also disgusting to me. Thank you to NO2HWA and Byker Bob for their comments defending you. I am glad you had time to visit with Karen before she died. I know you felt a sense of closure once you got back to Portland.
Dennis, I feel Ike I can share some of the feelings a minister has as he and his family goes from one church area to another one. Our kids are subject the pressures of changing schools and the pressure of the new kids at church. As I understand it, Karen stayed with WCG teachings and you had to move on. This ended up with you being in the hospital suffering from acute depression. Did church administrators offer you any help? Of course not, you had to deal with all alone. Everyone expects their minister to be perfect. As far as I am concerned you are my friend. Your welcome at my house any time. My wife does not read this blog but I have told about your journey since leaving WCG. She agrees with me, your welcome at our house.
Jim-AZ
A couple more comments.
Dennis you have given me lots to ponder and think about. I appreciate your openness and honesty. I don’t consider myself an atheist but if I only had HWA’s god I would be an atheist. If the bible were my only source for my beliefs then I would be an atheist. I look at the universe, I look at the various systems that make up any living thing and I say there has to be a being greater than me. The gibberish that Herbert came up with does not portray the“Truth”.
Before reading Dennis’s post, I had realized many stories in the bible were not true, examples the Exodus, a universal flood, Joshua’s long day. Who wrote Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. But I do appreciate the posts Dennis has made about the Bible. I read what Dennis says with an open mind. I follow up and study what he says. If the facts substantiate what he says, then I add that to my understanding. His comments “behold I come quickly” has not happened. Some believe it is a prophecy for the future but then we have to stretch the meanings of what it says. Dennis quotes sources saying the earth is or could be 13 billion years old. I have no idea how old it is. 1 million, 10 million or several billion, I don’t know.
Anyway, thanks Dennis, glad your getting settled in SC. Glad your near your kids and glad your relationship with ? Is going well.
NO2HWA and Byker Bob, thanks for what you do, helps me deal with life’s journey a little better
Jim-AZ
Thank you too Jim. I have always appreciated your comments along the way. I had made a comment in the obituary that my ex and myself had made amends and had become the friends we always had been. Perhaps the wording was awkward for this person who said she had contact with Karen before her death and that no such friendship existed. Or as she said, "I am on to you." She isn't. Karen and I shared things we never had before and she was very kind to me in very specific ways. She also made a point to tell me "Den, I am not the same person either I was back then." I know that to be true. Neither of us could be after all that has transpired in our lives.
The ambusher also demanded to know why I waited six months to post the obit and the simple answer was that up until a couple weeks ago, I did not know such a site to do so for former AC students who had passed existed. Good enough answer I think. I thought it appropriate to inform those who might remember her to know of her passing. I have lost touch with just about everyone from my AC/WCG past at this point.
My marriage failed because of me and my ministry failed because I should have been a paleontologist or cosmologist and grew sorry I had ever heard of WCG. I was not built emotionally to handle well all the drama and trauma they could dish out year after year. WCG became the epitome of what I never would have chosen had I seen it coming.
BB Bob Jones University , just over the hill from me, is a Dark Night of the Soul and Midlife Crisis Factory.
Thanks for your comments too.
"should have been a paleontologist or cosmologist"
I hear ya! HWA, in his "Seven Laws of Success" cautioned us about the "square peg in the round hole" syndrome. My interests were always technical, mechanical. It's why at SEP, I always volunteered for work details that an older Imperial student was heading up, because I knew we were going to be using an old '47 Ford truck with a flathead V-8 and a Columbia 2 speed rear end. The guy's name was John, and he showed me how the Columbia rear end worked amongst other things. I also asked to work on the camp vehicles with Mr. Pierce at Orr, who showed me how to adjust drum brakes. Officials thought I was trying to get out of stuff, but actually was attempting to pursue my real passions.
But, in the '60s, all the young people in the church were herded towards Ambassador College, "knowing" that the end was just a few short years away. The thinking back then was that, in your effort in the endtimes work, your job in the work, and your marriage could certainly be made to last until 1975, and then, poof, Jesus would return, and you'd be in the Kingdom! So, Herbert was talking out of both sides of his mouth! He put quite a few young people into the position of "square peg in a round hole". And, then 1975 didn't happen, and they were stuck. Somehow, I ended up at AC Press actually doing things which were compatible with my aptitudes, and the career I still enjoy today sprung from that. I have no idea why I was so fortunate in this, because there were certainly numerous others who did all the "right" things, and yet ended up paying dearly for their adherance to Herbert's arrogance.
Most don't realize all of the complexities involved. There were some naturally good and very sincere people who entered the ministry, followed all the rules, and yet somehow never allowed themselves to be corrupted by the system. I've watched as some of them left the orgs over matters of conscience, they have had questions themselves, and have entered these blogs and forums, looking for answers and seeking discussion, only to find that some want to hold them responsible for all of the worst things that any minister they ever knew had ever done. That's just not right. People are individuals. They differ widely, so there is a whole spectrum involved. It simply is not a case where worst possible scenario makes for an accurate universal straw man.
One of my early bosses once quipped that the world would be a far better place if we all learned to take a walk in the other guy's moccassins. I believe he was not wrong in that.
BB
Dennis - I am somewhere on my "12 step" program on leaving Armstrongism behind.
When you know everything, because you know the truth and are not deceived, you cannot help but be self-righteous.
When I finally come to my senses and realized that it is a collection of fake facts, misleading facts, ans a few real facts, then I started to realize my knowledge and understanding and wisdom is in need of a major upgrade.
I appreciate all you have shared with us, and you have helped me personally on my journey.
You are still ministering in your own way.
Non sequitur had a great cartoon today about who has the better truth.
TLA, I'm still attending ON and ON Anonymous. lol. In hindsight, part of the problem for me to come was nature to comply and please as well as "do the right thing." I had three close friends as a kid, we were "The Four Ds" , Dennis, Dave, Dick and Doug. They always kidded me for being the conscience of the group when about to do some dumb shit. lol. I grew up in the classic Beaver Clever home and then went to AC where I was the same "Good Boy" I was as a child. Went by the book, did the goofy dating thing at AC. The one where you had to be seen dating people you'd never actually date in real life. Got to be the Jr. Class Pres, which always went on to become Student Body Pres at the time. Sponsored a Jr Class blow up on campus which became known as Great Something or Other, I forget because Richard Plache called our class in a meeting "the Cream of the Crud" and all hell broke lose spreading to the whole campus as a rebellion of sorts over such terms. Didn't get to be Student Body Pres which I only wanted to be so I could give the graduation address with my great parents in the audience and wife to be etc, because of it. Turned out the chosen Pres had a lisp and the powers that be did not wish him to give the address. So they picked me! lol.
At graduation I was told by a faculty member, "For you the sky is the limit", which I thought was an odd thing to say going into ministry, which I defined by the scripture, "he that is greatest among you let him be your servant" etc. I always felt the word "greatest" was meant to be sarcastic in the text.
Anyway, Local elder at year one. Preaching elder at year two and then....then....after pastoring 14 congregations, mostly alone in 5 states, still a preaching elder! No one ever bothered to "promote" me to Pastor. So I recall being anointed once and given a double portion of the spirit to do my job and concluded I must be an Apostle at least and forget them! LOL.
It was in the ministry, during the crazy 70's, I found my personal freedom to think the thoughts and be more the person I had repressed in the "good boy" days. In other words, it was my first encounter with the reality of life outside the compound. I sincerely endeavored and did do my job as pastor to people, not the Administration nor in behalf of the Armstrongs or even Tkaches, and fought the wild oats were never sown in my youth. Sometimes well and sometimes not so well. I think I have lived things backwards in that regard.
Anyway, brutal honesty about the reality of experiences in church, as pastor type and human being is my personal salvation it seems. Honesty can be embarrassing as we all know, but it is also liberating. "Freedom is when you have nothing left to lose" and all that. (Thank you Janis)
Thanks for listening. I can count my former member/pastor stay in touch friends on one hand still it seems. But "scoffers", er, noticers are easy to find :)
During the
Some of the ex-Church of God members (and "ministers") who rattle with their mouths have never matured in their emotional state past the mentality of your typical junior high school bully. They have no concept it seems of "appropriate behavior". They'd be JUST the type to actually snub someone at something as sacred as a church service just because they're not in agreement.
Oh wait....
Post a Comment