Being mistaken is not something, evidently, a Church of God splinter can admit to. Or at least to date, with much now behind them that was mistaken, they can't. Herbert Armstrong was never wrong. Joe Tkach was never wrong. They can ignore it. They can revise it to be wrong again later because God now has mercifully given them even more time to be wrong. But they can never admit they actually were mistaken. Dave Pack is good at this. They can blame the people, as Ron Weinland did, for not understanding that it was "spiritual!". But they can never admit that they simply were wrong.
For better or worse, the Bible itself gives some plenty of reasons to never admit they were wrong. For all the Apostle Paul's sureness that time was short and that he who was still alive and remains would be changed , while admittedly some would die and John's sureness that he wrote of things that must shortly come to pass and that Jesus was coming "quickly" low these two millennia ago, ending up badly mistaken and admitting it never seems to have crossed their minds either. Paul did have time to write that he fought a good fight and he gets his crown, gotta go, but never seems to understand the heartache he may have left behind in his mistaken ideas. As far as I can see, that is simply the norm in the Churches of God to this day..
Later, Second Century apologists came along and simply covered the mistaken idea with blaming those who noticed Jesus was long in coming soon and labeling them scoffers with all the associated threats and put-downs. God does not see time as we mere humans do they noted as if all should have known that from the start and not scoffed at the longness of "shortly". Blame the notice is always more easy and face-saving than the one who was simply mistaken with the inability to say "I was wrong"
Cudos to Ex Pastor Joshua Harris for the guts to admit his sincere mistakes, in his sphere of influence, and leaving a lesson for the Church of God leadership to ponder which they probably won't.
Joshua Harris: When a Leader Has the Courage to Say ‘I Was Wrong’
“A lot of [my classmates] shared stories of the effect my book had, and a lot of them were negative,” Harris remembers. “I couldn’t just write them off as angry trolls, because these were my friends, and so I listened. And then one day, on Twitter of all places, this woman wrote me and said ‘your book was used against me like a weapon.’ I answered and said ‘I’m so sorry.’
“It was such a simple, human interaction, but that interaction led to a conversation which led to a friendship, and that friendship changed me. She said something I”ll never forget – that her conversation with me on twitter was the first time a religious leader had ever acknowledged getting something wrong and apologized to her.”
From these experiences Harris opened up his website for people to share their unedited experiences—positive or negative—with his book, which led both Harris and a fellow grad student who had also been hurt by Harris’s book to begin work on a documentary that explores the impact Harris’s book had on dozens of people. As Harris has leaned into the fear of saying “I’m wrong,” he says there are three main lessons he’s learned."
"“We talk about wanting to evolve – become a smarter or loving or compassionate version of ourselves. But think about what that requires – there’s a lot of death that takes place,” Harris says. “Evolution is never a painless process. It’s a dying to old ways of thinking and old habits. Maybe old relationships. Evolving personally involves admitting you got things wrong and letting those things die."
“You can’t rush through the pain of being wrong. Often we want to get through it as quick as possible and go back to being right. Or we give these lame apologies: ‘to anyone who was offended …’ as though being offended was their fault. We want to get past it, deal with the tension and messiness of it, and get back to being right. But if you rush past that you won’t grow. It sucks, it really does. But in that tension and facing up to it, that’s the sign that I’m growing.”
“I wish I could say people will come by and pat you on the back for being humble, but expect resistance. There are people who want you to stay the same … because if you admit you’re wrong and they agreed with you before, then that by implication makes them wrong too.”
Harris doesn’t address it in the TEDx talk, but his decision to step down as pastor of Covenant Life Church was heavily influenced by an in-church sexual abuse scandal the pastoral leadership team decided to deal with internally, rather than contacting the police. According to the Washington Post’s reporting, a former Covenant Life youth group leader was convicted of molesting three boys in the 1980s. Trial testimony showed that the victims or their families had gone to church leaders for help and that the church officials did not call police. Harris said the thinking of the church was that such allegations should be handled as an internal, spiritual issue.
Reflecting on this incident, Harris said he wanted “to get a broader perspective. I want to learn other ways of how pastors and other leaders deal with all these things. We need to learn from the historic church about ways that there is better accountability and responsibility.”
What Harris learned is that when church leaders become too convinced of what they think they know, it inevitably damages their communities, sometimes in life-altering ways. And while this can just produce more sleepless nights for some pastors, Harris believes that when leaders are able to willingly admit their mistakes and choose humility, it actually makes them the safest sort of leader to be around.
15 comments:
You are mistaken. Harris had no practical choice other than to step down when he divorced. He gained his fame as the author of "I Kissed Dating Goodbye." He promoted his theory of dating as God's Way™ to have a stable and happy marriage, but when even he, the purveyor of the crap, couldn't demonstrate it working, he lost all credibility and had to change his act in order to keep getting money from a congregation. An honorable man, realizing that he was not just wrong but dangerously incompetent to influence other people, would have stepped away from leading other Christians. Instead, he wants to remain on the tithes/offerings gravy train, so with a divorce he has NO CHOICE other than to change his patter.
"Courage"? Courage would have been for Harris to acknowledge his error BEFORE his divorce made it inescapably public. What he calls courage, others call damage control.
Anon1:46PM said...
"You are mistaken. Harris had no practical choice other than to step down when he divorced. "
Harris resigned from the position of lead pastor of Covenant Life Church in January of 2015, over 4 years ago.
Harris just announced his separation (divorce) during the past week.
The day after he announced his divorce, he added that he is no longer christian either.
Josh Harris Then and Now:
1997: "When gоd knows yоu’re ready for the reѕpоnsibility of cоmmіtment, He’ll reveаl the rіght persоn under the rіght cіrcumstances."
2019: "Actually, gоd dоesn't dо jаck ѕhіt."
That was the result of my 40 year experiment with christianity as well.
Underwhelmed by all the claims of people's "personal experience."
"...but I had a feeling!"
"...but I heard a voice in my head!"
"...but I had a vision!"
"...but it couldn't have been just a coincidence!"
This is all mundane stuff. There's nothing extraordinary about any of this. For thousands of years people have imagined thousands of gods and monsters which christians prettymuch agree don't do jack shit. Add one more to the list and they have a conniption fit? Too funny!
D. Diehl:
1. Some of the things that John wrote about in Revelation did come to pass shortly.
2. How do you know that Paul did not apologize to those who followed his timeline?
3. Christ did come quickly for everyone who read those words. He will come quickly for me. He will come quickly for you.
Quick, somebody give Harris Dennis’s and Aron’s emails. I sense an emerging bromance!
Joe Tkach was never wrong.
Huh?!?! He admitted to mistakes during messages more than once - even before the big "Sabbath is voluntary" announcement 25 years ago.
The problem for some members was that they didn't want to hear the church teaching was wrong.
So Joshua Harris wrote a book in 1997 about dating at 21 years old?!
When I think about what I knew as a 21 year old about life and everything, let alone dating and sex, you could say I was Forrest Gump! I was a baby! I knew nothing! Idk but I find it kind of pretentious for a homeschooled kidult to be lecturing others about dating and relationships. WTH did he know from personal real world experience about it back in 1997? I'd hazard a guess very little to next to nothing. Also, is his megachurch a "prosperity gospel" church? I feel like the fracturing of his faith is in part due to he's equating the success and popularity of his book and prescriptions therein with the accuracy and credibility of God and His Word.
NEO 6:55
I like that famous reasoning and nckian type of reasoning.
After becoming an adult at 13 and an average life span of 40 years christ is alway within reach of 27 years.
For ladies giving birth it must have been 17.
That beats 19 year cycles.
Nck
"... you'd think just once one might hear "Please forgive me, I was wrong.""
I did hear this from one who regretted our family's involvement in "the church."
Made all the difference, and I'd never thought to 'blame' this one, never did.
Listened to my minister, tearful, saying he couldn't do anything for me (a teenager experiencing many years of abuse.)
This minister, became something of a hero to me, though it took decades to comprehend.
He and his family left "the church" on principal, years before the fallout of the receivership.
Maybe one in a position of influence, could just be first to say, "Please forgive me, I was wrong."
Near_Earth_Object said...
D. Diehl:
1. Some of the things that John wrote about in Revelation did come to pass shortly.
2. How do you know that Paul did not apologize to those who followed his timeline?
3. Christ did come quickly for everyone who read those words. He will come quickly for me. He will come quickly for you.
1. The "Shortly" in Revelation, along with "Behold I come quickly" had to do with Jesus returning soon in that day and time. That is the theme of the book and that is what did not happen as advertised. Whatever else you think came to pass shortly in the book is moot to the point.
2. It is not recorded and what is gives any reader the impression he simply gave himself credit for being a good guy, kept the faith which proved to be in places mistaken and goes on to get his crown. Like a Dave Pack or Ron Weinland, I suspect Paul would have been incapable of apologizing for being mistaken. There is too much invested in being the main mouth and too much to lose if one admits they were wrong it seems.
If Paul wrote I Corinthians 13, and it seems a much humbler version of a Paul who spoke of love being more important than mistaken pronouncements on prophecy and believing one can know the future or was eloquent of speech, then perhaps the man learned how wrong his priorities were, as Dave, Ron, Bob, Gerald and his Brother Gerald should but won't. Paul, in the text, was not seen as one who would understand I Cor 13 until perhaps late in his game when the end drew near and nothing came shortly or soon to pass. So it is today.
3. That might be true as an philosophical apologetic for the failure of text but that is not the intent of the text. No one in the day would have given that a thought as to what a Paul or John was saying about the times in which they lived. Those stuck in their gyrating seats today with many a mistaken notion thrown at them week after week are thinking that. If that was the case then sticking to the main message of "It is appointed unto all men once to die and then the judgement would have sufficed as the main and sufficient message to the Churches with emphasis then on other actual "what sort of person should we to be" themes instead of a false hope that was bound to go awry in time.
PS If Paul did apologize, it would have been very late in the game when it was obvious he was going to die himself, which was something he spent his life denying. That's when people do apologize for the most part. It is rare for someone to see the problem immediately and correct it without the maturity that needs to develop and for the fruits of the idea to present themselves. It takes time to recognize mistakes and errors in belief and there be few that go there.
Common also is the snark of "well why didn't they see this sooner" or "they only say this because of ______" along with, of course, "sure, after they make a fortune." All of this is irrelevant to a man or woman coming to see they were mistaken in their views, that it hurt more than helped with a touch of naivete' to boot.
I at least give the man credit for seeing what he sees and doing what he does about it. Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Ron Weinland and others would do well to do the same but they won't and probably can't.
I also suspect most don't actually watch the full TEDx talk Joshua Harris gave. Comments do not seem to reflect a knowledge of having done so.
D. Diehl:
1.The "Shortly" in Revelation, along with "Behold I come quickly" had to do ...
No this has to do with your particular interpretation.
2. It is not recorded..
That's the only part that can be verified.
3. That might be true as an philosophical apologetic for the failure of text but that is not the intent of the text …
Are we to suppose that you know the single, isolated meaning of the text? Christ stated "I come quickly" without further qualification. The Book of Revelation contains numerous scenarios that describe the participation of Christ in the events of world history. But his participation was, where he could be identified as the actor, in the non-physical realm.
Most people interpret this in the way you do. Most people empirically have been wrong.
Neo is one of those people who is always right and never wrong.
N.E.O., how can you claim most people "empirically" have been wrong about something supposedly done by an imperceptible actor in the "non-physical" realm?
A proposition is empirically true only if it can be objectively verified. Nothing in the non-physical (that is, the spiritual or imaginary) realm can be empirical because objective evidence is lacking. Not just lacking, but by definition impossible. Such a proposition is solely a matter of faith.
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