"Gotcha!"
In reading and musing on the "changes" that swept through WCG in the brief leadership of Joseph Tkach, I don't believe I have worked around or met a more sincere, friendly and dedicated to the cause a person as Greg Williams, now President of Grace Community International, formerly the Worldwide Church of God. Greg replaces Joseph Tkach Jr, who still lurks from all I can tell. Although formerly sounds lame as there is no comparison between the two.
As a pastor in SC I knew Greg and his family from the Asheville, NC area. All very fine and dedicated folk. Towards the end of my own time in WCG, I attended meetings on "the changes" etc with Greg and always found him to be probably the one pastor I'd ever wish to say was both friend and pastor of any church I attended. He's a good man and very sincere in his doings. We parted ways in every way but I respect Greg for many real ways, both for his personable self and for going on to better educated himself in all things theology. Something most ministers, in the splits, splinters and slivers of WCG simply will not and cannot do.
I spent time with Greg in ministerial meetings during the transitional times from what WCG was to what CGI now is. Greg was on board from the start and almost relieved at the changes and I think that may reflect his having somewhat grown up in WCG. I on the other hand felt I was just being dragged back into what I grew up with and my enthusiasm was not so apparent as you might expect. We parted ways in every way. I knew I wanted out of what most in the meeting seemed to want in on.
During that time I also had a chat with Ron Kelley, evangelist in the WCG and now enthusiastic supporter of "the changes." I have my own view as to why but I spare you. Our discussion took place after I had left the ministry but before I knew what direction I'd take with the rest of my life. We talked about it all and I asked about some personal concerns to which he replied that the church was not able to meet its obligations because "Jesus worked a great miracle in the church and we simply do not have the funds anymore." I did ask about the monies harvested with the sale of the Pasadena and Big Sandy Campuses, but evidently that was none of my business.
Jesus worked a great miracle and Joe Tkach another one by being neither accountable for the resources gained in the sacking of the church properties nor remotely apologetic to the very sincere members whose lives he and his cohorts had turned upside down and over a very short time. The emotional and physical toll on the people never seems to have crossed Joe's mind. I guess when you are convinced you are doing the Lord's work, nothing matters anymore but getting it done and see what's left.
Joe Tkach Sr. changed the church over in a couple years where historical Christianity took several centuries to do so. I understand on his deathbed Joe Sr lamented that "I have been so foolish" , but who knows and nice timing Joe.
Joe Tkach Sr. changed the church over in a couple years where historical Christianity took several centuries to do so. I understand on his deathbed Joe Sr lamented that "I have been so foolish" , but who knows and nice timing Joe.
I chuckle now at Joe Tkach yelling at my wife over the phone to squelch the rumor I had asked him about the day before, I was not home when he called back, about HWA getting divorced. Of course about a month later it proved true. I found the rule when talking to the Tkaches about what they had in mind to change and what not to that a "no not that" meant yes and a "Yes, that is the same" meant not for long.
I have always thought that the Tkaches and those of the same persuasion had an obligation not to change the church to their liking, but to leave it and go where they felt better about their theology. They had no right to hurt so many sincere people whose sacrifices and closely held faith and hope in all things seemingly also taught in the Bible and now rejected by them. They simply should have left themselves. It seems it was too difficult to change the church and lose the perks of their "leadership", so the rest is history.
Another grievous mistake was Joe Sr continuing the Herbert/Garner Ted pattern of nepotism by bringing comfortable family into positions of authority. But it was a good example of "The first generation founds it. The Second generation maintains it. The Third generation loses it and walks away."
Another grievous mistake was Joe Sr continuing the Herbert/Garner Ted pattern of nepotism by bringing comfortable family into positions of authority. But it was a good example of "The first generation founds it. The Second generation maintains it. The Third generation loses it and walks away."
My question then is, Did JESUS Trick the Church and the incredibly sincere folk that made it up? In all those decades of sacrifice both in material and spiritual ways, in all those prayers offered for God to bless the Work, guide the Armstrongs, give personal strength to get through the ups and downs of life and look forward to everything from resurrections of loved ones to the change they no doubt would experience themselves "in a moment in the twinkling of the eye and at the last trump" into the Wonderful World Tomorrow, was it a trick? Some will say that "Jesus was never in the WCG" but that's not the point. The people were. They read their Bibles, prayed for the success and needs of where they were expressing their sincere faith in God, Jesus and the Kingdom of God to come as they understood it. They scheduled their lives accordingly and for the most part participated freely and in faith.
If Jesus worked this great miracle, it implies he either was in the Church as a church but decided to play a different game at the expense of the people's faith or , not ever being in it, waited 50 years to intervene and bring the leftovers into the fold and set the course aright, again at the expense of the faith of thousands who can not be blamed for all that followed emotionally, spiritually and in their newfound skepticism of organized religion, which often proves to be an oxymoron in the extreme over time.
If Jesus worked this great miracle, it implies he either was in the Church as a church but decided to play a different game at the expense of the people's faith or , not ever being in it, waited 50 years to intervene and bring the leftovers into the fold and set the course aright, again at the expense of the faith of thousands who can not be blamed for all that followed emotionally, spiritually and in their newfound skepticism of organized religion, which often proves to be an oxymoron in the extreme over time.
Again I ask...
Did the Cosmic and Resurrected Jesus, who was the supposed head of the church in all things and leader of the leaders as they followed him, trick the good people of WCG over all those years? Or perhaps, like the Devil who "didn't do it", Jesus "didn't do it either"?
44 comments:
So the truth finally comes out. Dennis didn't become an atheist because he could appreciate the grandeur of our planet and our universe as an uncreated expression of natural cosmic wonder and beauty. He became an atheist because he is mad at Jesus. If Jesus didn't do what Dennis thinks is best, obviously He cannot exist. That's fine, but why doesn't Dennis use the same logic regarding the Tkaches?
Oh the other day you had a pop at the Apostle Paul and God's holy spirit and today its Jesus Christ turn.
Your like the Apostle Paul in reverse.
Is there anyone from the Bible you actually like?
Contrary to the Armstrong Restorationist model (theory), Antinomianism was a feature of early Christianity (mid first century.) Therefore Armstrongism was not evidence-based: Those who sank their time & money into this doomed enterprise have only themselves to blame.
Did God trick the sincere Pharisees and Saducees when he let the Temple be destroyed in 70 AD??
Must be Friday.... chill out, have a donut or beer or chocolate
"Contrary to the Armstrong Restorationist model (theory), Antinomianism was a feature of early Christianity (mid first century.)"
If you mean New Testament Christianity then I say Bulshit! Antinomianism is merely a misinterpretation of Paul, which Jesus prophesied would happen when he said "In that day many will call him Lord, Lord" but he says he never knew them "get away from me you workers of anomia"!
Mat 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Armstrongism has enough evil within that there's no need misrepresenting the base doctrine which Armstrong never developed himself.
The answer to that question is above my pay grade. There are many such questions that could be asked. When Armstrongists pray to the demiurgic god that HWA invented, does the real god nevertheless hear? How accurate do you have to be in your understanding and application of true doctrine to be considered a Christian - or is it a question of accuracy at all? Why do some cults get disbanded and other similar cults thrive? The answers are not easy to these questions. And it requires judging the hearts and minds of people and knowing the unrevealed purposes of god - that is why it is above my pay grade.
With our crude optics and small aperture on reality, it is easy for us to mistake subtlety for Deism. I do believe that in the eschaton, in the apokatastasis, all will be well, all will be set aright. And Romans 8:28 will come into fullness.
Dennis, you said "I have always thought that the Tkaches and those of the same persuasion had an obligation not to change the church to their liking, but to leave it and go where they felt better about their theology. They had no right to hurt so many sincere people whose sacrifices and closely held faith and hope in all things seemingly also taught in the Bible and now rejected by them. They simply should have left themselves."
If leaders in that organization came to know that there were some serious errors in the WCG doctrines/theology, then the Tkaches did the right thing in staying and making the necessary theological changes that were required. However, they went about making all the changes that occurred in the wrong way, and that was what hurt so many sincere people. What they did was one of the worst cases of Change Management ever!
You asked the question, "Did JESUS Trick the Church and the incredibly sincere folk that made it up?" You also mention that the WCG members "read their Bibles, prayed for the success and needs of where they were expressing their sincere faith in God, Jesus and the Kingdom of God to come as they understood it. They scheduled their lives accordingly and for the most part participated freely and in faith."
The key words to point out is "as they [WCG leadership and members] understood it."
It was Herbert W. Armstrong that tricked and deceived the WCG and the incredibly sincere folk that made it up.
The members of WCG placed their faith in Herbert W. Armstrong and what he understood and said about the Bible, not in Christ Jesus nor in what God's word [the Holy Bible] actually says. That's been proven time and time again.
The Lord Jesus was never the Head of WCG, Herbert W. Armstrong was. So please don't put the stink on the Lord Jesus. Put the stink on who it actually belongs to and that is Herbert W. Armstrong and all his disciples that taught his false theology, of which you were one of.
"If leaders in that organization came to know that there were some serious errors in the WCG doctrines/theology, then the Tkaches did the right thing in staying and making the necessary theological changes that were required. However, they went about making all the changes that occurred in the wrong way, and that was what hurt so many sincere people. What they did was one of the worst cases of Change Management ever!"
They made all of the changes to doctrinewithout changing their hearts.
All throughout the changes you find the same attitudes as before. If you don't like it, leave. We'll disfellowship you if you aren't in agreement, they'd say. Take our word for it, we're right, even if you don't understand it, just go with it. You cannot just unchange 70 years of one way of Government by policy and doctrine changes. Sure, they say that they were wrong and that it was a miracle, and this thing and that thing. But how is hurting people by the way they implemented the changes any different than how they hurted people for all those decades? One would think that there would be differences in how the changes would take place. There wasn't. I distinctly remember leading up to the changes the many lies that HQ was caught in by saying there were NOT going to be "Changes" and in fact, they were planning it the whole time. (An article in Christianity Today, I think.)
Herbert Armstrong had ingrained his way of governance deep within the folds and fibers of the WCG fabric. A sudden shift from law to grace, or from OC to NC doesn't change the way that the ministry behaved. These were issues from decades and decades back. So your guestion was - did JESUS trick the sincere members?
No. Jesus had nothing to do with it. The blame and problem lay strictly on Herbert Armstrong and his interpretation of scripture. It was Herbert who claimed the authority of Jesus Christ in his writings and doctrines. It was Herbert who said his writings were as from Christ. It was Herbert who taught that the word of a minister was the same as if it came from Christ. The sincerity of the brethren as to what they learned was because they believed in Herbert Armstrong's word. Remember every booklet? Every correspondence course? Every PGR? Every document? Every WT Broadcast? Was this Jesus? No. This was all Herbert. How do I say this with certainty? Because of the fruits shown thereof. But that's a whole 'nother article for another time.
Jesus needs no blame for any of this. Just remember that while all the "Blessings" and "fruits" of the Church were being blasted out, so were scandals, debauchery, immorality, lies, and carnality of all sorts also being blasted out - just under the radar, until it all came to blows in the 70s and 80s - after a whole decade of lies and deception about the end of the world in '75. Jesus did none of this. The Church government did.
452
No, it was the study of biblical origins, historical problems, errancy issues, politic and mythologies that did it. Science played its part. Bitter at Gospel Jesus is irrelevant. That would be like being angry at the Good Fairy Godmother in Cinderella.
“Did Jesus trick the sincere members of......”? I think we often miss the point Dennis is making. I think the point Dennis was making is that Jesus was never in the WCG. I pastored several churches. I know that most of the members were sincere. They were faithful in their beliefs, praying for “the work”. Tithing and sending offering to “the work”. Yes, I preached the messages taught to me by Herbert Armstrong and AC. I was wrong. I was fooled just like all the others. When Herbert was invoking the name of Jesus Christ as his authority he was blaspheming the name of Jesus. We all have to digest where we are today. I don’t fault Dennis for what he writes. He makes thoughtful points. I have learned more from Dennis than I did at AC. At least I study what Dennis said. At AC I was taught to regurgitate what Herbert said.
Jim-AZ
"I respect Greg for ... going on to better educated himself in all things theology."
If so, he would give it up Christianity completely like Bart Ehrman did.
The world's biggest problems are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in that order.
"The world's biggest problems are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in that order."
You forgot one. The author of the 11:35am post.
Is the only point of this blog to further the movement of Atheism ?
It must be Friday ... the 13th. I feel the presence of evil. This is unholy time.
Anonymous said...
"I respect Greg for ... going on to better educated himself in all things theology."
If so, he would give it up Christianity completely like Bart Ehrman did.
The world's biggest problems are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in that order. "
I get that and agree. Take Christianity, Islam and Judaism out of the news and world peace would break out.
It all depends on WHERE someone goes for their theological education. I doubt Greg went to one given to higher criticism etc. There are denominational seminarys as well that only go as far as the denominational beliefs. Bart often notes that the kids in his first classes usually freak out and go home disillusioned to tell their parents. lol.
Still, I respect Greg and his education leans more towards his own rather gracious personality. But I agree. A good theological education, based on reality will take one out of the ministry pretty quickly unless they are Episcopalian. Those priests know the scoop but there is more to an Episcopalian Church than Bible literalism
I was one who went with the changes. At first I left and tried going to mainstream church services but was disenchanted with their legalism. I moved out of state, eventually hook up with the “new” wcg and discovered that the minister was hanging on to the government structure. At that time I was offering my services in any way I could, but then I felt led to move south. I resisted getting involved with wcg (as it was still called) but found myself attending at Big Sandy, where I was for two years. They did the change-over much smoother, although there were still some armstrong die-hards. I learned a lot there about Christ in us and us in Christ, etc. After leaving that area to go to yet another state, I then left wcg for good in 2006. I then began to put into practice the concept of Loving God and Loving Neighbor. No more church orgs for me.
My point: as long as gci is run by humans, there will be problems. When men are in charge, there will be corruption of some sort.
Jesus had and has nothing to do with anything wcg.
"The world's biggest problems are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, in that order."
As Christopher Bollyn shows, in his books and videos, it was Mossad that did 9-11. Zionists have a long history of "sacred terrorism". There is even a book called "Israel's Sacred Terrorism". They bombed the USA and UK before. Do research on the Levon Affair, the USS Liberty, the bombing of the King David Hotel. They also did the first WTC bombing, but blamed it on a blind Sheik. The #1 witness was paid $1 million by the FBI to frame the Sheik and testify against him. The prosecutor was an Israeli Citizen and the judge was a Zionist. The whole trial was totally rigged. The US is being run like a third world goon state.
"Take Christianity, Islam and Judaism out of the news and world peace would break out."
Now that's funny, is that an Aron Ra quote? Perhaps a Karl Marx or Saul Alinsky quote? Maybe a Hirohito or Tojo quote? Those lovers of peace. Damn those Christian warmongers!
Dennis wrote:
Take Christianity, Islam and Judaism out of the news and world peace would break out.
I guess Dennis is unaware of the situation in Sri Lanka, where Buddhists and Hindus have been killing each other for decades and more. It seems that one of the fundamental conditions of theism is that it teaches you to hate the people who hate your god. If every Christian became a Buddhist and every Muslim became a Hindu, there would be just as much violence as there is today.
3:11pm Hatred has absolutely nothing to do with religion, it's human nature plain and simple. Atheists love to use the ruse that wars stem from religion but it is far from the truth. They love their evolutionary "survival of the fittest" motif, yet blame religion when they see it in action. Blinding themselves to its existence among the non-religious also!
Anonymous said...
Dennis wrote:
Take Christianity, Islam and Judaism out of the news and world peace would break out.
I guess Dennis is unaware of the situation in Sri Lanka, where Buddhists and Hindus have been killing each other for decades and more."
Then take religion out of the news and world peace would break out :)
It is common for atheists to harp on the insupportable idea that Christianity has been the root of conflict and mistreatment of the masses in world history. For a good survey of the actual historical impact of Christianity, I would suggest reading the book "Atheist Delusions" by David Bentley Hart. This is too large a topic for sound bites and off-the-cuff remarks.
NEO No one I know says "Christianity has been the root of conflict and mistreatment of the masses in the world" A contributor to be sure in it's fundamentalist expression just as other literalists in Islam have been. The televangelism of the past 40 years has also been a root, not the root, of skepticism and cynicism among many because of it's near theological circus like behaviors and personality cults of silly people who make fools of themselves in their attempt to evangelize the world to their way of thinking.
I am sure that religion plays it's positive role as well. There are just as many books on religious delusions that address the same topic that is too large for similar sound bites and off the cuff comments.
Then take religion out of the news and world peace would break out :)
I forgot. The Soviet Union and Mao's China were such loving neighbors, not having to deal with the delusions of religion. Yeah, right.
Fundamentalism of any kind, even if it's fundamentalist Maoism vs. fundamentalist Marxism-Leninism, will create sufficient conditions for human hatred to flourish.
No trickery involved whatsoever; just another great learning experience in a walk of life.
If Joe Tkach Sr. said on his deathbed "I have been so foolish", then that should of been the mantra for all in the WCG during those times.
What did some of us learn besides that we were very foolish? I think Greta Thunberg, the 16 year partly autistic Swedish girl who is leading a group of young people concerning climate change said it aptly to the UN recently. She said: "people will rise to the challenge since the leaders are behaving like children. We will have to take the responsibility they should have taken long ago".
The encouraging part of the Tkach fiasco is that some moved by the dynamic of the true gospel solidified their belief and understood that the road to the promise land is reached by and through much tribulation. The not so encouraging part is that some having seen nothing come to fruition, having seen the atrocious conduct of ordained men, then looked at the nice new religious package offered to them and said no thanks see ya later ...... God.
What some perceive as an act of trickery for what happened in the 1990s, others see it as an age of enlightenment. While many of the principle players accuse each other of having their heads in the sewer, some few individuals fell into the sewer but by some odd circumstances came out of the pipe and dropped into a pristine pool of water and declared to themselves that they would rise to the challenge and take unto themselves the responsibility that they should have taken long ago.
Anonymous said...
Then take religion out of the news and world peace would break out :)
I forgot. The Soviet Union and Mao's China were such loving neighbors, not having to deal with the delusions of religion. Yeah, right."
Then take humans out of the news and world peace would break out. I think the series "Earth After Humans" probably showed how the earth would heal relatively quickly if humans were out of the picture.
The way schoolyard bullies behave in the schoolyard is a microcosm of governmental behavior. The motivation and dynamics are the same. And bullies are not religious.
I watched several episodes of Earth After Humans. It showed the world reverting to a jungle after the extinction of man. Personally, I would label this "healing."
So according to Dennis if we eliminate Christianity, Judaism and Islam then we will automatically bring about a "utopia" on earth. Then he qualifies this with all religions and then further with humans in general. But, one need ask the question if the 3 largest religions were removed then for whom would the earth become a "utopia?" Furthermore, if we remove all religions then again whose version of "utopia" would this world become? Even more so if we actually eliminate all humanity from earth what kind of "utopia" would this be and for whom? Honestly it sounds more like Dennis's skewed logic here is nothing more than a degenerate kind of Satanism--of which secular religions have adhered to in one form or another throughout history. Look at the 20th century as a recent example. Destroy religion, destroy humanity, usher in "utopia." Of course when we look at history we note such a course of action usually starts off with the destruction of competing religions and opposing groups of humans all under the illusion of bringing about the leader's version of "utopia." They fail to realize the self-destructive heart of human nature at play, which in turn leads those heralding "heaven on earth" ushering hell on earth for everyone else and as a final reward they ultimately end up destroying themselves feeding on their own primarily due to the paranoia this atheistic and murderous kind of power brings with it.
What About The Truth, September 13, 2019 at 6:41 PM, said: "...No trickery involved whatsoever; just another great learning experience in a walk of life.
If Joe Tkach Sr. said on his deathbed "I have been so foolish", then that should of been the mantra for all in the WCG during those times.
What did some of us learn besides that we were very foolish?...The encouraging part of the Tkach fiasco is that some understood...the road to the promise land is reached by and through much tribulation. The not so encouraging part is that some...looked at the nice new religious package offered to them and said no thanks see ya later ...... God.
What some perceive as an act of trickery for what happened in the 1990s, others see it as an age of enlightenment. While many of the principle players accuse each other of having their heads in the sewer, some few individuals fell into the sewer but by some odd circumstances came out of the pipe and dropped into a pristine pool of water and declared to themselves that they would rise to the challenge and take unto themselves the responsibility that they should have taken long ago..."
And we see history repeating itself again...as though nobody considered the following words of the Apostle Paul:
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]." Ephesians 6:12
This post's conclusion approaches some truth by asking again: "...Did the Cosmic and Resurrected Jesus, who was the supposed head of the church in all things and leader of the leaders as they followed him, trick the good people of WCG over all those years? Or perhaps, like the Devil who "didn't do it", Jesus "didn't do it either"?..."
Again, more timely words from the Apostle Paul:
"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or [if] ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with [him]." 2 Corinthians 11:4
If nothing else, people are learning to recognize some evil and coming to learn to hate evil.
We were advised of the following:
"But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up." Matthew 15:13
The Father's Son, Jesus, would not waste time tricking people! That is just plain stupidity, but another spirit and another Jesus with another gospel? Who would have thunk it?
Time will tell...
John
"Then take humans out of the news and world peace would break out. I think the series "Earth After Humans" probably showed how the earth would heal relatively quickly if humans were out of the picture."
Sometimes I wonder if Atheists even realize that when they make comments like this that, while they may sound grande, they won't be around to experience their grandiose idea.
Much like thinking how great it is to be made up of "stardust". Who cares! In the grand scheme of things, who cares what we're made of, the only thing that matters is that we exist. Once you no longer exist it doesn't matter what you're made of, or what happens to the universe.
So, who are the bigger fools, atheists who deny an afterlife, or Christians who "hope" there is an afterlife? If there is no God, then once we're all dead it doesn't matter one bit. It doesn't matter what becomes of the universe or what we were made of. But if there is a God...
God the Father nor Jesus Christ tricked the Church!
People want to blame HWA for what happened after his death. When he was alive he stomped out the rebels in order to preserve the unity of the Church.
If people don't believe the same way, go somewhere else. But they stayed and tried to take over the congregations by trying to sway the minds of the WCG membership to believe their different beliefs. And tried to overthrow the Church leadership. That is a work of a virus.
If you genuinely believe something, and honestly believe it, go away and believe it. But why enter into or stay in another Church body and try to change that Church?
And so stepping back, you begin to see that the point was about the obliteration of the WCG. It was a virus type work. If not, then why did so many dissenters stay in the WCG?
Why didn't they just leave and start their own churches? They stayed in, caused great damage, and then when they thought the body was dead, began to separate into different groups.
Then every one of them blame HWA and the WCG, but they was the ones who entered into that Church body, did the damage and left drawing away members from the WCG. The blame is on their head!
They didn't belong in the WCG!
Reminds me of Revelation 3:9. People calling themselves members of the WCG, showed up as liars. They ended up as different churches anyways.
The blame is on those responsible. HWA would not have allowed these COG leaders to stay in the WCG, and there would not have been such a great falling away, if he was still alive. Read Zechariah 2. After the scattering, God will still have a worldwide Church of God. We just have to come out from these daughters of Babylon!
That's what my family has been dealing with. We are dealing with counterfeits. If you claim to be something be that something!! Walk the walk. Don't lie, but walk honestly. We respect those who are honest and say they don't believe what the WCG believes, and don't try to take on the label as WCG members.
The membership of these COG groups have been less to believe that these COG groups are a continuation of the WCG, but this is a lie. If they want to be the Church, take the entire package. Don't start a new group so you can change things to your liking.
That leads people away from Christ, when their job is to lead them to Christ.
HWA wanted people to build a relationship with God and follow Jesus Christ. He needed funding to open up the nations to the gospel message. So God's people supported him. I don't know why these non believers supported him if they didn't agree! And why complain about it afterwards? Those of the WCG truly wanted to support him. They made that decision and are happy they did.
That is the WCG. Those not of the WCG Church body aren't happy about it, because they wanted something else! They wasn't completely honest with themselves and the WCG.
Part one
Part 2
It's like a football team. Members of the opposite team join our team, yet don't believe what we believe, nor want to follow what our boss says, and yet they call themselves members of our team. It's absurd.
Get on your own team. Leave us alone. We aren't trying to hurt anyone. That crusade element that comes from those not of the WCG are not what the Church believes. We do not want to take over anything. But wait until Christ to come. At this time we work to be better people, good in the eyes of God. And if love does no harm, but looks out for the other guy, how can we be such a threat as so many say we are?
It is like the Johnny Cash song, we are like a soldier getting over the war.
The ways we learn from our current society, are clashing with the ways of God in the Bible. And so it's easier to spot the sins of those who go back and forth in the great struggle. Because it's like a light going off and on struggling to stay on.
Instead of binding up the lame, to keep the light going, like fixing a short in the circuit wire, to keep the light on, people stand back and say how bad of shape that light is in!
You guys want to stand back and bash the WCG and HwA pointing out the times when the light diminished, but what about the times the light didn't? Those hard times had a cause, what caused the short in the wire?
It was because there were unbelievers in the WCG. They wanted to destroy the WCG, so God allowed the WCG membership to be scattered for their good. And so these COG groups was created to capture that scattering. But it is a vain work.
The WCG is the WCG. Everyone of these groups are their own entity. But one thing is in common among all of them. No one likes the WCG.
Pillagers came in and raped the land and burned the crops, and sold off property. Then they looked back and blame the previous owner of what they did? That is BS. It's dishonest.
6:24 I agree. Agnosticism is solo much more superior to the other systems of belief and especially the less than rational requirements "to fit in."
Nck
6:24 AM says, "It doesn't matter what becomes of the universe or what we were made of. But if there is a God..."
Some of us feel about the universe the way you feel about God. We can demonstrate a physical connectedness with our origin in stardust that is as strong as the spiritual connectedness you intuit with your god. The difference you seem to be referring lies in the intuition that one's own consciousness must surely transcend this temporal association of molecules that constitute us in life.
Seems to me this difference is tolerable in terms of human relationships. We should be able to work together, play together, party together in spite of it.
My big questions that neither side answers:
1) Why does anything exist? How do you get something out of nothing God or the universe - yet here we are
2) The Old Testament appears to have origin stories - not real history. DNA proves a much earlier origin for humans that 6,000 years ago. Noah's worldwide flood was impossible. The Exodus numbers defy reality. Plus how to you get so many people from the few generations listed - see Levi to Aaron genealogy.
3) Gospels record the Jewish leaders asking Jesus for a sign - if He did all the healing miracles recorded then what else did they need? The Pharisees and Sadducees would have been lining up for their own sick to be healed. Plus why didn't Jesus or a faithful scribe record His message while He was alive?
4) evolution - deep time doing the impossible - life is far too complex to randomly assemble itself.
5) Intelligent design - why take billions of years?
I like the Sadducee concept: That living by certain precepts helps you have a good life here and now, a life that flows ahead of the probability curve, but when life is over, that's it. You are just gone. In other words, you receive the rewards for living right here and now, and that's all there is. It keeps you motivated to treat others well, and to be on the side of goodness, so positives are always coming back to you.
BB
"Seems to me this difference is tolerable in terms of human relationships. We should be able to work together, play together, party together in spite of it."
Sounds good to me. How about a good poker game? $100 buy in?
Kevin
I want to publicly apologize to Byker Bob for my acting like a jerk years ago on Silenced. I got on to all there for continuing their anti-WCG/HWA postings, telling them to get a life. I was wrong in doing that, I had no clue what torment they had gone through in WCG. I apologize.
Kevin McMillen
The problem, Sam, is how people came into HWA’s church. Kevin suggested elsewhere that members had “proven” the sabbath and holy days to themselves, and had then encountered HWA, who was preaching that. And, I suppose that that could be a path into Armstrongism. However, back in the 1950s, when HWA was the host of “The World Tomorrow”, he was preaching the end of the age, a coming punishment and tribulation for modern day Israel (B.I. based), because they had forgotten their identity and the customs God had given the original Israelites as part of the Old Covenant. He presented his church as being the solution for all of his listeners, the only way in which they could be spared. It was then that they learned that they should give up pork, stop smoking, quit going to the doctor, separate from their spouse it they had been previously married and divorced, leave the military, begin keeping the sabbath and holy days, oh and by the way (ahem!) begin sending their tithes and generous offerings to PO Box 111, Pasadena, California!
People came into the old Radio Church of God to save their own butts from Herbert Armstrong’s Apocalypse, an event which HWA failed to bring about in accordance with the original time frame which he had preached (1972-75).
When 1975 failed, people who had been taught that keeping the sabbath and holy days unlocked the keys to understanding end times prophecies began to go back and research the doctrines anew, this time coming to other than the carefully guided conclusions suggested by HWA’s proof-texts.
So, the church that had been built upon false premises imploded, splintered, and lost all of the resources and power for which 1975 had been the catalyst.
As for Jesus? HWA had falsely booked a personal appearance by Jesus for 1975, without consulting with Him first! Knowing His character, how could Jesus possibly validate such a person and such an act by honoring a false booking? He obviously could not, and did not! So, it was HWA who caused the demise of his own movement and empire by attempting to mix the Old Covenant back into the New Covenant, and by promoting a bogus interpretation of prophecy. Simple Gamelian cause and effect!
BB
Samuel Kitchen
It's your post that is bull. No, HWA did not want the members to follow Christ. I've been reading church literature since 1965 and not once did I read about each member being directly led by Christ. I never heard one sermon or sermonette on members baptism obligation to follow Christs direct lead, or how to recognize that lead. Rather, HWA and his ministers usurped Christs lead by claiming that members exclusively follow Christ by following HWA or their minister. The church culture was one of HWA being in place of Christ. The name HWA was spoken many times more frequently than Christ's. To call the church The Worldwide Church of HWA would have being more honest.
What your post conveniently ignores is the church culture. You write as if the church is exclusively it's official published doctrines. The church culture was one of the ministers owning members lives and property. The members were treated as rightless children. Natural rights, England's 1688 bill of rights, or America's bill of rights did not exist in HWAs church. The pounds that Christ gives to every person in the parable of the talents was considered the exclusive property of the ministers. Hence members ability to genuinely grow was stomped on. Growth was only permitted along certain narrow corridors.
Over and over God demolished towns and cities in the OT that were evil and oppressive, yet when the same happened to HWAs church, HWA and his ministers are innocent. It's the big bad wolf viruses in the church. Or the traitorous Joe T that destroyed the church.
"Be it according to your faith" means that what is in peoples hearts eventually manifests itself physically. It's HWA murderous toxic culture that destroyed his own church.
Apology accepted, Kevin. I unfortunately responded with some jerkiness of my own, so also apologize to you.
BB
Thanks Bob, appreciate it.
Kevon
Hello Folks, Mish-Mash here. Haven't been on the site for a long time. Great read Dennis. Being involved with the church as a kid back in 1968, and looking back,people were naive. After WW2, people thought the end was near so they wanted a message of survival. People were also getting sick of the hypocrisy of the Catholic church. So again, naivete, new message, same dictatorial method. Where was Jesus in all of this, in heaven , shaking his head at the corruption of his message. I believe He helped those who had a shred of critical thinking get out. Those who were sincere, he had mercy where he could. Those who were militant believers, he had to leave to their own fate. There is no admonitions in scripture to give your mind blindly. God can't fix people who do that. From the beginning, this whole thing was a sham with a bunch of bible dogmas and frightening prophecies slapped on it. The times and attitudes were right for people to buy into it. Never a work of God, just another debacle of man.
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