Thursday, February 20, 2020

The Missing Dimension in HWA's and GTA's Sexual Teachings



THE MISSING DIMENSION IN HERBERT’S AND GARNER TED’S SEXUAL TEACHINGS

How did many thousands of people come to regard the teachings of an incestuous pedophile and a serial adulterer on human sexuality as authoritative? That’s a good question, and one that is worthy of an answer or explanation! After all, most of us would expect someone who purports to be an expert on issues related to questions of morality surrounding human sexuality to be practitioners of what they preach.
The first point that should be made in answering our opening question is that the overwhelming majority of the folks who accepted the teachings of Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong in this regard were completely unaware of their personal moral failures in this realm when they were introduced to those teachings. In the light of subsequent revelations about the private sexual lives of both men, however, it becomes more problematic in attempting to explain why so many folks continue to accept their teachings in this area. Again, one would think that their failures would cause their followers to take another look at their teachings on a subject that is so important to most humans!
It is more than a little ironic that Herbert Armstrong had the temerity to write The Missing Dimension in Sex after years of sexually abusing his own young daughter. “That is an unproven and scurrilous accusation!” his defenders will shout. For me, the fact that his son (Garner Ted) believed that it had happened (and confronted his father with it) is sufficient reason to believe that it happened. Moreover, even if we were to dismiss this allegation as “unproven and scurrilous,” how do we explain the circumstances surrounding Herbert’s second marriage and divorce?
Likewise, Garner Ted had the audacity to write about Modern Dating before being kicked out of church for his philandering ways. After ignoring his son’s marital infidelity for years, the problem finally became so severe (and so widely known) that Herbert was forced to put his heir apparent out of the church! Years later, after starting his own church, Garner Ted was famously caught on tape sexually propositioning a masseuse!
“Their moral failures don’t negate the validity of the moral principles which they promoted in their writings!” some of their defenders will shout. That may or may not be true but doesn’t it (at the very least) warrant us taking a closer look at the principles they advanced?
Herbert Armstrong liked to criticize what he referred to as the “New Morality.” In fact, his original treatise on the subject was titled God Speaks Out on the New Morality (for our purposes, we will not address the arrogance involved in presuming to speak for God). He decried the fact that, although science has swept away much of the former ignorance regarding the technical/mechanical aspects of human sexuality, these learned men had failed to account for God’s purposes and will in human sexuality.
As with many other aspects of traditional Christianity, Herbert believed that Catholic and Protestant attitudes toward sex were directly borrowed from the pagans. He wrote: “Christianity, following its first generation, absorbed the pagan dualism of Greece, and pasted the label ‘sinful’ on sex. Through the centuries since, the moral standards of the Western world were regulated by the Roman Catholic Church.” (Chapter 1, The Missing Dimension) “What, then, was the real source of this attitude of shame?” he asked. “It flowed on the tide of the Babylonian Mystery religion into the Roman world,” he answered. “It reached the Roman world by way of Greece, but it flowed, at an earlier date, into Greece from Egypt,” Herbert explained.
Was Herbert right about the source of Christian shame about human sexuality? Interestingly, HistoryExtra (the official website for the BBC History Magazine) informs us that “To the ancient Greek mythologisers, sexuality, love and sex were inextricably connected with the creation of the earth, the heavens and the underworld. Greek myth was a theogony of incest, murder, polygamy and intermarriage in which eroticism and fertility were elemental; they were there right from the start, demonstrating woman’s essential reproductive role in securing the cosmos, extending the human race and ensuring the fecundity of nature.” (see the article “A brief history of sex and sexuality in Ancient Greece”) The article, along with many other reputable sources, does not leave us with the impression that the ancient Greeks were puritanical about sexual matters.
Indeed, Mr. Armstrong later acknowledges that, according to the Bible, the ultimate source of human attitudes with regard to shame about our bodies and their functions was Satan. In the first chapter of Genesis, we read that God pronounced everything that “He” had created (including both genders of humans and their reproductive systems) as being “very good!” (see Genesis 1:36-31) In fact, the very next chapter concludes with the statement: “And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (see Genesis 2:25) It was only after they ate the forbidden fruit that “the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves aprons.” (see Genesis 3:1-7)
Although Herbert delighted in denigrating and dismissing scientific notions about evolution and the interrelatedness of all life on this planet, the fact is that human reproduction shares a great many similarities with plant reproductive systems and even more with those of the animal life that shares this planet with us. Indeed, all sexual reproduction is characterized by a male gamete fertilizing a female gamete to produce a zygote – which then eventually develops into a mature form of whatever plant, animal or human we’re talking about. From a theist’s perspective, God has designed a wonderful system for the perpetuation of life on this planet (a system of which we humans have our own version). And, when we think of human reproduction in these terms, it seems absurd to characterize any part of that system/process as shameful, evil or unnatural!
Finally, Herbert had a great deal to say about the application of God’s law to the proper uses of human sexuality. In the end, his basic formula was that all sex outside of the institution of marriage is sinful. Was he correct? How should God’s law be applied to the phenomenon of human sexuality?
Jesus Christ said that the entire law could be summarized in two great principles: love of God and love of neighbor. (see Matthew 22, Mark 12 and Luke 10) Paul told the Romans that love fulfills the law. (see Romans 13) Hence, it seems like we would be on safe ground (in terms of Scripture) to characterize any behavior (sexual or otherwise) that is based on love and that doesn’t hurt/harm yourself or someone else as being comprehended within the boundaries of God’s law.
Of course, we are speaking here of God’s great fundamental law known to most of us a “The Ten Commandments.” But doesn’t one of those commandments specifically address the subject of human sexuality? Yes, the seventh commandment states “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” (see Exodus 20:14) So, here we have a direct command from Almighty God that “He” expects us to be sexually faithful to the person we marry – that God expects us to honor the commitment which we have made to that person. Christ expanded on this when he told his disciples “That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (see Matthew 5:28) Notice too that this cannot be interpreted as a blanket condemnation of all sexual desire (which the Creator had to place within us, if “He” indeed created us), because marriage is implicit in the very concept of adultery!
“What about all of those scriptures that deal with fornication?” my Armstrong inspired friends will ask. Just a little checking with Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible (either online or in the printed form) will quickly demonstrate that both the Hebrew and Greek words which are translated thus into English encompass any sexual behavior which is considered deviant (and the Hebrew word also implies idolatry in the sense of God considering Israel to be married to Him). Many Christians are surprised to learn that it is human reasoning that has made this word mean premarital sex – that there is no specific condemnation in all of Scripture regarding human sexual behavior prior to that commitment being made to another human being!
As for procreation in marriage being the only justification for human sexual intercourse, Mr. Armstrong himself blasts that notion. According to him, there are three God-ordained purposes for sex: marriage, reproduction and “the expression of marital love and companionship.” (see Chapter 11) And, although Herbert doesn’t directly quote Scripture to back up his conclusion in this instance, common sense and experience inform us that there is much more motivating human sexuality than the desire to produce offspring.
Likewise, Herbert insisted that masturbation was also sinful, harmful and disgusting. He wrote: “On the other hand, masturbation is a form of PERVERSION. It is a SIN! It does harm the boy — or the man — physically, over a period of twelve to twenty-four hours by dulling the mind, even causing a partial blurring of sight, and acting as a partial anesthetic to the memory. Often a boy will experience absent-minded proclivities following masturbation.” (see Chapter 12) And, once again, no scriptural basis for this prohibition is listed (probably because you cannot find one in the Bible). As with many other of his teachings, Mr. Armstrong arrived at his conclusions about masturbation based on human reasoning – extrapolating principles based on scriptures dealing with other matters!
And remember the Greeks mentioned early on in Herbert’s treatise as being responsible for traditional Christian prudery about things sexual? The article referenced earlier in this post tells us that “To the ancient Greeks, masturbation was a normal and healthy substitute for other sexual pleasures – a handy ‘safety valve’ against destructive sexual frustration. This may explain why there are so few references to it in the literature: it was common practice and did not merit much attention.” Continuing, we are informed that “Other ancient civilizations celebrated masturbation too. For example, a clay figurine of the 4th millennium BC from Malta shows a woman masturbating. In ancient Sumer [the first ancient urban civilization in the historical region of southern Mesopotamia, modern-day southern Iraq] masturbation – either solitary or with a partner – was thought to enhance potency. In ancient Egypt male masturbation when performed by a god was considered a creative or magical act: Atum was said to have created the universe by masturbating, and the ebb and flow of the Nile was attributed to the frequency of his ejaculations. Egyptian Pharaohs were required to masturbate ceremonially into the Nile.” (see HistoryExtra)
Can we begin to see that Herbert Armstrong’s notions about human sexuality were flawed and can hardly be said to be authoritative? Can we see that many of the very principles which he expounded upon in his treatise were based on flawed human reasoning and have little or NO basis in Scripture?
Think about the harm that these teachings have caused – especially among the young people of the church. I’m reminded of Christ’s admonishment of the Scribes and Pharisees “For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.” (see Matthew 23:4) Can you imagine trying to live up to these standards as a young person who has begun dating? How ironic! Mr. Armstrong expected them to deny the very desires, appetites and hormones which God had placed within them! Yeah, I’m thinking a reevaluation of the acceptance of these Armstrong notions about human sexuality is long overdue!

Miller Jones     


110 comments:

Anonymous said...

What's with the apple in a couple of those pictures?

WCG correctly taught that the Bible's "forbidden fruit" was not an apple. Apples are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, but those mentions are not found anywhere in descriptions of the Garden of Eden. It was the Catholic writer John Milton who introduced the association of the apple with the forbidden fruit. It's weird to see the ignorant use of the apple in those pictures.

Anonymous said...

WCG had an active homosexual subculture among its top men, but I don't know whether it extended widely beyond Pasadena into the field, or whether there was another homosexual subculture in the field. I know that both LCG and PCG have homosexual subcultures to this very day, but I don't know about COGWA or UCG or RCG (though the late homo-friendly Denny Luker and tight-shorts-wearing Dave Pack give me reason to wonder).

Anonymous said...

Armstrongism focused as much on sex as it did prophecy. Both things they screwed up

WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH said...

Well Miller, I see you have never had to deal with three daughters who have loved and are loving all 142 boyfriends in their lifetime.

The negative connotations of free love are varied and great when understood in each of their contexts. A true education of cause and effect is learned when this road is taken. What some might think is just natural or organic in act like eating a meal and deficating it the next day would be a gross underestimation of all the dynamics that are in play.

Herbert's book had much in it that was useless for what the real point of the book should have been about. I had forgotten about the paganism and shame angle. With all that is wrong with with HWAs book it did get right that the missing dimension in sex was not acting upon urges in a state of perceived love.

Allen C. Dexter said...

The hypocrisy knew no bounds in WCG. HWA expelled students for a little hugging and kissing while his son was bedding coeds wholesale. He denounced masturbation while keeping a "flog log" diary of his own practice of the solitary art. What went on in secret in Imperial Schools and the ministry was covered up just as thoroughly as the crimes of catholic prelates. Protecting the church was the prime goal, so it was all hidden from the average church member for a long, long time. Even today, there are diehards who will staunchly deny the facts.

Byker Bob said...

Even if the old and borrowed GG Rupert or Dugger and Dodd package of doctrines had been an authentic representation of the truth, the illicit and criminal sexual activities of HWA would have prevented him from correctly receiving revelation from God regarding prophecy. IOW, unbeknown by us, there was a cause and effect relationship at work in which the sex had polluted the understandimg of prophecy. One of the primary weak spots of Armstrongism has always been the accuracy with which the church understood prophecy. It was employed as nothing more than a cheap hook, a catty nine tails to be used in usurping the lives of the members, and exerting undue control and influence. Had it been the least bit accurate, we would have all risen to meet Jesus in the clouds in early 1975, and we'd all be in the Kingdom now. We supposedly lived on the event horizon, and as a matter of record, the church's zeal and enthusiasm peaked and dwndled down to nothing because the prophecies never kicked in. Some still fan the flames and attempt to correct the math involved in a nonmathematic situation, and even make new prophecies. Even here, we've got Holy Spirit Man who insists that he saw the US going into captivity in his lifetime, and another dude with the weird notion that President Trump is the King of the North. This crap never ends amongst the die hards. As Kenny Rogers sang, you've got to know when to fold 'em, when to walk away. Somewhere in the evening, the Gambler (HWA) has already broke even and slipped away.

BB

DennisCDiehl said...

Anonymous said...
What's with the apple in a couple of those pictures?

WCG correctly taught that the Bible's "forbidden fruit" was not an apple. Apples are mentioned elsewhere in the Bible, but those mentions are not found anywhere in descriptions of the Garden of Eden. It was the Catholic writer John Milton who introduced the association of the apple with the forbidden fruit. It's weird to see the ignorant use of the apple in those pictures."

Miller, you offended an apple grower or at least one with affection for apples. Excellent posting.

The Bronze Age rules on adultery were not about relationships. Stoning women for it was one of the best ways of ensuring that babies and thus property and possessions would actually belong to and go to the actual children of the man whose stuff it was. Men got stoned on alcohol in the day. Women got stoned on the rocks. The fear of it kept the woman in line for the most part. But even Ms Daughter (Bat) of Sheba was unable to resist her desires, for the good ol' "Man after God's won heart" no he her. Their punishment was to lose the child whose fault it was not. Evidently when you are the King your choice of women don't get stoned.

Add to this that Bible God has no wife/consort (He used to but she got written out of the text) and lives with his eternally single son who lives at home with dad, and you have to wonder what they know about human sexuality too.

We won't mention that Father God did fornicate (was not the husband to) an under age virgin to produce the single son that lives at home with him now. Since the virgin was said to be with child by the Holy Spirit, well...that's a threesome if the HS is indeed a third person of the Trinity. Here comes the argument that the HS is a force. To which one could respond, "then the God, through the HS, forced himself upon a young underage virgin which might be construed as a crime today? It's all very confusing and evidently we take it all for granted and cannot should not be questioned.

Please don't be offended. This was an actual scenario presented to me by a teen in the local church. He was testing me I believe and curious about my answer. I congratulated him for the question and told him, yes, it appears one could look at the story in that manner.

At any rate, excellent posting Miller! The scriptures are not gold standard on issues of human sexuality and it's place in the lives of real people. The shoulds, should nots, must and must nots imposed by others simply cause people to put on the mask and hope that ultimately the others will mind their own business.

DennisCDiehl said...

and too...it always seemed to me that every minister who was somewhat known for ranting against all the standard sexual practices and issues in the lives of humans was quietly wrestling with his own stuck in the fear, guilt and shame trying to become him therefore "Perfect" even as his Father in Heaven was perfect. Of course, if you read my first comment, that actually gives on a lot of leeway. lol.

I have told but it's always worth the retell, of the refresher program session where the moderator said that we, the ministry, needed to talk about whether oral sex was something that should be addressed, as improper evidently, in the churches. Then he said, and I kid you not, "Personally I find the topic distasteful." There was a pause to give it time to both sink in and if perhaps he wasn't joking with a play on words. He wasn't. We all fell out with the Pastor of the Paris, France Church waving his arms in the back of the room and shouting, "Stop! Stop! If you rule on that wrong we'll lose the whole French Church!"

We fell out s'more and the topic was put to bed. Oops, I mean shelved.

Tonto said...

The Missing Dimension Book reccomeded "laying on ones back while sleeping" as the approved form of release for sexual buildup. Did that ever really work for anyone? Should that be tested on a show like Mythbusters??

Tonto said...

Was the "forbidden fruit" a cucumber or a banana ???

DennisCDiehl said...

Tonto said...
Was the "forbidden fruit" a cucumber or a banana ???

It was either Morels (But it could have been a lack of Morels too) or Snakeskin Fruit. Personally I believe it was a rutabaga which originally was on trees but after was cursed to grow on the ground just as the serpent who lost his ability to talk and walk and had forever more to crawl on its belly. That's called punctuated equilibrium in evolutionary terms.

RSK said...

How's that camel?

Miller Jones said...

Anonymous 2/20/20 @ 6:38,
Don't be offended - I like apples too (apparently, Rod Meredith didn't - those booklet covers were his).
WHAT ABOUT THE TRUTH,
No, I never had to deal with three daughters, only two (and they didn't have 40-50 boyfriends each). So, Herbert's notions about sex were correct from a secular/intellectual perspective? I notice that, like him, you didn't offer any scriptures to support your condemnation of "free love."
Byker,
Yes, the prophetic angle was all wrong. I think a lot of that was the literalist perspective which permeated everything. Your bound to screw up interpreting things through that lens when your dealing with a genre of literature which employed so much symbolism and metaphor! And maybe the great disappointment of 1975 was in part due to sexual frustration - the Church being deprived of its honeymoon night with Jesus!
Dennis,
Thank you! As always, your comments underscore the absurdity of the fundamentalist/literalist perspective on Scripture - which I second. You are quite correct to point out the paternalistic motives underscoring much of what the human authors of Scripture wrote. Likewise, your references to Christian beliefs about Christ's parentage highlight the fact that many of us (not all of us) haven't thought about the implications of those beliefs. We could also mention the rampant polygamy which is endorsed and/or tolerated in several instances in the Old Testament. In the same vein, it is interesting to note that there is no marriage ceremony outlined in the Bible (and there is a great deal of cultural diversity related to the practice displayed in its pages). I wrote my article for the benefit of those who were/or comfortable with the fundamentalist/literalist perspective that supposedly underpinned Herbert's musings on the subject. Having said all of that, once again, I believe the all or nothing choice regarding Scripture is a false dilemma which many of us have rejected. For many of us, it is foolish to make eternal spiritual principles out of Bronze Age cultural norms or the advice of folks who didn't like women or sex.
Tonto/Dennis,
If we all could just sleep on our backs, problem solved! The speculation about the type of fruit was hilarious, but the fundamentalist/literalist readers will remind us that it had to come from a tree! lol

SwampWatcher said...

Unfortunately, Lonnie doesn’t realize just how damaging he is to his own fathers ministry. He really is a blinded selfish and angry hypocrite. To be so oblivious to this kind of rhetoric and continue to promote this kind of animosity and hate (toward anybody) is just so very disappointing and extremely disgustingly sad; especially when you're an admitted homosexual. How can he even think about talking about others this way when he himself lives in a "glass house?” Lets not forget God’s view on this (Lonnies) sexual preference (Lev. 18:22, 20:13, Duet 23:17,1 Cor. 6:9)

What people don’t realize is we are all responsible for our own actions and Lonnie’s homosexuality is his choice––his dad, at this stage of his life, certainly has nothing to do with his sexual preference. That’s really queer of him and those who obviously don’t realize Lonnie is a big boy–-I think he's pushing 60 years old… He’s been on his own for decades and was himself serving in God’s church on a ministerial level ––and he has the “gaul" to speak out on HWA and GTA’s failings––as though he'’s above approach? Somebody help me––what’s wrong with this picture?

I now am wondering..???? If he had access to any children while in the CG7, or CGI, when he ministered to those congregations? (Any law suits lingering??? ) And that is somehow different than HWA and/or GTA’s ministering, while struggling with their issues? I’m not justifying anything here, but I really think you should take the "Redwood tree" out of your own eye, before you begin to correct others of there weaknesses.

Please give us all a break and just shut up, your ignorance on morality and the double standard you use is just so typical of the “Marxist" ways we see around us––and it disgusts me coming from you!!! Your views are so badly skewed by your own immoral nature!! And this doesn’t make me very gay, instead it makes me very sad for you!!

SwampWatcher said...

Unfortunately, Lonnie doesn’t realize just how damaging he is to his own fathers ministry. He really is a blinded selfish and angry hypocrite. To be so oblivious to this kind of rhetoric and continue to promote this kind of animosity and hate (toward anybody) is just so very disappointing and extremely disgustingly sad; especially when you're an admitted homosexual. How can he even think about talking about others this way when he himself lives in a "glass house?” Lets not forget God’s view on this (Lonnies) sexual preference (Lev. 18:22, 20:13, Duet 23:17,1 Cor. 6:9)

What people don’t realize is we are all responsible for our own actions and Lonnie’s homosexuality is his choice––his dad, at this stage of his life, certainly has nothing to do with his sexual preference. That’s really queer of him and those who obviously don’t realize Lonnie is a big boy–-I think he's pushing 60 years old… He’s been on his own for decades and was himself serving in God’s church on a ministerial level ––and he has the “gaul" to speak out on HWA and GTA’s failings––as though he'’s above approach? Somebody help me––what’s wrong with this picture?

I now am wondering..???? If he had access to any children while in the CG7, or CGI, when he ministered to those congregations? (Any law suits lingering??? ) And that is somehow different than HWA and/or GTA’s ministering, while struggling with their issues? I’m not justifying anything here, but I really think you should take the "Redwood tree" out of your own eye, before you begin to correct others of there weaknesses.

Please give us all a break and just shut up, your ignorance on morality and the double standard you use is just so typical of the “Marxist" ways we see around us––and it disgusts me coming from you!!! Your views are so badly skewed by your own immoral nature!! And this doesn’t make me very gay, instead it makes me very sad for you!!

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones wrote:

The speculation about the type of fruit was hilarious, but the fundamentalist/literalist readers will remind us that it had to come from a tree!

Remember, we're talking about the WCG, an organization that at its height spent as if money grew on trees.

Anonymous said...

According to Dobson from Focus on the family, a common regret he hears from married couples is having had sex before marriage. They found out the hard way that there is a mental sub routine that kicks in, cheapening both parties and the relationship when they do.
If a young woman decides to lose her virginity in England, there is a 50% probability that she will contract venereal disease on her first encounter. So someone's three daughters are VD infested. Not forgetting, one in five people have herpes in the western world. Trying telling a prospective mate of this condition. The conclusion? You're nuts if you screw around.

Near_Earth_Object said...

DD wrote: "Add to this that Bible God has no wife/consort (He used to but she got written out of the text)"

There is a sweeping error made in this statement. I will assume that DD is speaking of El and his consort Asherah (one of several putative consorts). El is an ancient Semitic name for "God". Right away, the generic nature of this term leads quickly to the conclusion that we must be careful to understand it in context. When I speak of "God" it is much different from the Hindu usage of the same term, for instance. Vishnu may possess some similarities with the Christian God but I don't think anyone would honestly argue for equivalency.

The Ugaritic texts may have given El a consort. The Bible does not. The assertion that the Canaanite El is the God of the Biblical context is simply a calumny based on nothing more than presumption or speculation.

That paragraph in DDs post and the one that follows are DDs awkward attempts to impose the attributes of the human nuclear family on God as a kind of crude parody. It does not acknowledge the transcendence of God. If anyone buys those statements, they are not just superficial but diaphanous.

Anonymous said...

BB
You are increasingly mocking those you disagree with, just like km. How about respecting others freedom of thought and expression?

Near_Earth_Object said...

I know I will get flak. That's OK. This does not directly bear on Miller Jones article but is a sidebar and something Miller referred to. I believe the magnitude of GTA's sexual misconduct is likely to have been greatly overstated. All of that happened in a highly politicized environment where character assassination was the tool of choice.

Writers cite GTA's confessional statements as if among all his fabrications, these are to be believed. He also confessed that he had a relationship with only one AC co-ed. This may be true and the rest may be hyperbolic. We don't know. And the reason why we don't know is that the "evidence" is simply hearsay on the part of political tainted writers.

The great testimony is Silence itself. The WCG thrived on the rich and distorted gossip that was transmitted along a robust grapevine. The grapevine grew up, large and lustrous, to supply the information withheld by the careful information manipulation practiced by Armstrongist leaders. Given the scores of AC co-eds that GTA is supposed to have compromised and their families and their friend is it reasonable that so little information flow would have ever been dispersed? From my experience at AC, I would not expect most AC co-eds to submit to GTA's blandishments, if there ever were any.

Just saying...

DennisCDiehl said...

On others words NEO, BIBLE God is always right to be and do what humans better not. Even gets off the hook for not avoiding the appearance of impropriety as mortals must because he transcends all that.

Biblical scholars and historians argue nicely for the El/Asherah origins of the Israeli El whose qualities were later attributed to YHVH. Polytheism was the original Israelite view as well and YHVH was originally assigned to Israel as Chemosh was to others etc. But you know that's my view by now. Your OT God did not spring from any transcendent ether or vacuum. It evolved even as scripture itself reveals

TLA said...

To solve this argument, why don't a group of us go to Bethel, and climb Jacob's ladder to heaven?
Then we can visit with God and get direct instruction.

After all, the Bible is infallible, so that must be the right place to place a ladder to heaven.

Near_Earth_Object said...

DD wrote: "Biblical scholars and historians argue nicely for the El/Asherah origins of the Israeli El..."

This is done on the basis of equivalency in names. It is similar to Herman Hoeh proving origin by saying that Saxon means 'Saac's sons or the Isaac's Sons. The particular El the Hebrews worshipped is defined within their texts. And their texts are not always brimming with fidelity. EL is, in fact, characterized as a Tribal Warrior God because that is the cultural lens the ancient Hebrews were looking through. This is why many statements in the OT indicate monalotry. Their Bronze Age views do not reflect God in factual detail. You may have missed the upgrade in the NT.

Maybe one day, thousands of years hence, archaeologists will dig up Mormon documents that claim God has a wife. Will that mean that this was generally credentialed? It only demonstrates that some people in this period had odd beliefs.

Anonymous said...

I question that subjects like this are going undo all of the damage presumed to be done by the leaders of WCOG. To me subjects like this are more destructive than constructive for those who suffered physically or mentally. If I am the only one here that recognizes this; I will assume that many who truly suffered are not aware of some of the things presented here.

The Painful Truth said...

Wanna know what god thinks of women?
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2020/02/21/women-in-the-bible/

DennisCDiehl said...

929. There is always room for caution and kind understanding on delicate topics but denial is also not our friend

Anonymous said...

NEO writes:

Given the scores of AC co-eds that GTA is supposed to have compromised and their families and their friend is it reasonable that so little information flow would have ever been dispersed?

NEO fails to consider that the "ministerial gossip network" often stayed entirely separate from the "member gossip network" because of the WCG's class distinctions and hierarchical structure. Only with the passing of decades and the mass exodus from the WCG ministry (whether to a splinter or to lay status in the world) have major elements of the "ministerial gossip network" found their way to non-ordained members.

Now consider that most of GTA's infidelities were with women who became ministers' wives. Especially before the D&R doctrine was changed, only chaos and hurt could have come from a ministerial wife telling her ministerial husband about her premarital contact with GTA. Even so, some wives did tell their husbands, and this became a major element in the Associated Churches split in 1974.

GTA admitted to one infidelity with an AC coed? Others accuse him of dozens and scores of such infidelities. Maybe a half-dozen cases seem to be proved, or as near to proved as we can ever expect. If GTA admitted to two or three or four of these, it would be much easier to take him at his word, but it is much easier to take the word of the men who followed their consciences and left WCG believing their wives' testimonies, which would indicate that GTA's behavior was frequent and incorrigible.


Anonymous said...

I remember being particularly drawn as a young teen to the women on the cover of the Love, Marriage, Sex booklet (as shown at the beginning of this post).

Anonymous said...

It's astonishing to me that a certain poster here has the ability to twist the perverts HWA/GTA's take on sex into people being wrong on prophecy. No doubt they were incorrect. 1975 in Prophecy affected our family in very damaging ways. I still have that same booklet on my desk as a reminder of what we went through. Just because I am no longer locked into the "1975 in Prophecy mindset" doesn't mean I can't read scripture and make observations on what I see happening in the world. About half of my family is still trapped in the 1975 mindset on prophecy and there is ZERO change they will listen or change. Kind of the like Amish....they are the spiritual Amish stuck in HWA's 1930's outlook. Personally, I do not understand how people CANNOT make the connection with Trump and Dan 11:40. I mean what else does he have to do? He is the Commander (KING) in Chief of the USA/NATO military block, which is to this very day wreaking havoc across the Middle East, much as Wesley Clark said they would in his 2007 speech "seven nations in five years". Dr Paul Craig Roberts gives ample proof to my position in his excellent articles posted on his site. The United States of America (Ama-ruka) is the most powerful nation ever, lead by it's King. Trump also rules over NATO, the NORTH Atlantic Treaty Organization. He also rules over the G7, who he slaps around with impunity. The Club of Rome will follow his directives. The Wolfowitz Doctrine states that NO other powerblock on the planet will ever challenge the USA's hegemony over the earth.

Meaning the the Kings from the East (BRICS) will never challenge the rule of the King of the North. The King of the South (Iran) will soon be annihilated and the Greater Israel Project fulfilled (Dan 11:40-44). The entire thrust of this scenario will lead directly to Armageddon.

Not to mention viruses, locusts, fires and earthquakes all around us. We truly do live in interesting times...the END times.

Yes, Donald Trump is the King of the North. You will know them by their fruits. Maybe Mr. "220 years to go" needs to take his WCG blinders off and smell the facts.


LXX

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous (1:53):

The case of GTA is full of assertions without evidence. Even the statement that six cases seem to be proved could come from a political source. Only six! GTA in a state of pique claimed involvement with over 200 AC women. So where are the law suits, the newspaper articles, the investigative reporters, the illegitimate children claiming an inheritance with a paternity test clutched in their hands, the enraged parents, the pay offs, brave women coming forward and the tell-all books? Not to mention GTA getting physically abused by some irate Dad. It does not compute.

GTA made an exaggerated statement before others to hurt his father. I am not saying GTA was as pure as the driven snow. The sexual misconduct just did not happen to the magnitude described in church legend.

Anonymous said...

NEO, you are going to believe whatever you want, so I'm not sure why I'm bothering with this reply. You make several irrational statements, such as wondering where to find

the illegitimate children claiming an inheritance with a paternity test clutched in their hands

If I need to explain to you how condoms work, you are beyond reaching. GTA served in the Navy and knew full well how to prevent a pregnancy, even when he couldn't intimidate some young woman into silence. But then you seem to want it both ways, you wonder where are the "brave women coming forward" but you dismiss them if they came forward to their minister-husband rather than the whole world. Your mansplaining about GTA's innocence shows us that you have never been close to a woman dealing with the trauma of rape.

You are absolutely correct when you assert that we will never know the truth about every allegation of a GTA rape, or about the extreme reach of the wildest accusations. However, there is enough smoke in enough of the right places to verify the fire surrounding GTA's reputation as a womanizer.

Anonymous said...

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous (1:53):

The case of GTA is full of assertions without evidence. Even the statement that six cases seem to be proved could come from a political source. Only six! GTA in a state of pique claimed involvement with over 200 AC women. So where are the law suits, the newspaper articles, the investigative reporters, the illegitimate children claiming an inheritance with a paternity test clutched in their hands, the enraged parents, the pay offs, brave women coming forward and the tell-all books? Not to mention GTA getting physically abused by some irate Dad. It does not compute.

GTA made an exaggerated statement before others to hurt his father. I am not saying GTA was as pure as the driven snow. The sexual misconduct just did not happen to the magnitude described in church legend.
February 21, 2020 at 4:13 PM


WOW dude, you just defended a serial predator. I'm sure the Defense would have loved to have you on the Weinstein jury. I ran into pervs, both male and female inn the WCG universe, which was disgusting. You defending sexual immorality is equally disgusting. I hope you are enjoying your serious case of STOCKHOLM SYNDROME.


LXX

Miller Jones said...

NEO,

You might want to check out the following:

https://hwarmstrong.com/ar/InBed.html

https://www.dallasobserver.com/news/how-low-can-you-go-6403726

Anonymous said...

I remember reading the book and learning that masturbation was supposedly condemned in the Bible. When I discovered that Onan’s sin wasn’t masturbation and that the Bible nowhere condemns masturbation I rejected HWA’s prudish—even pornographic—views. One inconsistency that irritated me was that he condemned solo masturbation, but approved of mutual masturbation. I think it’s difficult enough to abstain from sex till you’re married so solo masturbation shouldn’t be condemned for young Christian singles who need a healthy outlet and this is far better than picking up a hoe like Judah obviously was want to došŸ™„

the Ocelot said...

I rhink it was a tomato.They taste soooooo good

Byker Bob said...

I just spent the whole day breaking down $175,000 worth of bookletmaking equipment for a customer so that it can be put into storage, making room for new equipment. I mean, Flurry, UCG, or the COGaWA would just love to get their hands on this thing! Kind of sad in a way, because I had originally installed it back in 2006, and had lovingly maintained it, trained numerous people to operate it, some of whom have gone on to do great things for other customers as they matriculated. Many of the people whom I had trained and worked with have actually retired. It's what happens when you work for thirty years in the same industry. Just got home, popped the top on a nice cold can of Mickeys, and am digging on a Mott the Hoople retrospective CD I picked up at Zia Records on the way home.

But, let's get something straight, Apparently someone is pretending not to understand why I wouldn't jump on the opportunity to become his disciple. He wants me to believe that Donald Trump is the King of the North! The problem is that since 1844 preachers from a certain movement have been proving that they don't know anything about prophecy, mainly because everything they say always fails, no matter how they attempt to spin it or backpedal. They have been trondeling out complete shit which has greatly diminshed the quality of their followers' lives, and there is no sign that they plan to stop with this idiocy anytime in the near future. So, excuse me if I just shake my head and indulge in a good hearty laugh every time some kookaboo comes on here to share his latest prophecy theory. It's why when Earthquake Henry first burst on the scene, my initial response to his warnings were "Wow, Dude, That means there are going to be awesome surfing conditions!"

We mock the hell out of Dave Pack and Ron Weinland, two shock jock pastors who apparently don't even care when their own words betray them over and over and over! So why not mock some flight instructor who nobody even heard of for doing the same thing? By the way, I personally enjoyed having Henry around. He seemed like a nice guy, and he actually apologized when the earthquakes he thought he saw in scripture didn't happen. Would that all of the Armstrongite prophets had his integrity!

Anyhoo. Hope that clears the air! Best to concentrate on living a life filled with good values, spreading the love, raising your family, and not getting all bug-eyed about someone's prophecy theories. Don't let other people build a bubble for you that is only going to burst!

BB

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous (4:32)

I can understand reluctance on the part of some to come forward. But nobody? Out of so many? The silence is deafening. Many stepped forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein.

I know how condoms work. How do you know they were always used?

LXX:

You just begged the question. You assumed to be true what was under debate as a matter of question. How about you offer up some credible evidence instead.


Conclusion:

The case against GTA is extremely flimsy and likely politically motivated. It should probably be thought of as legendary.

RSK said...

Its not my area of specialty, NEO, but I do remember some of my school texts' info I can share:

The Kuntillet Ajrud finds contain two inscriptions referring to "YHWH and his Asherah", not simply El as Asherah's consort as in Ugarit. Make of that what you will (one line of thought is that the word "Asherah" refers to shrines in Samaria and Teman (an Edomite town, interestingly), though shrines to YHWH are not directly known to have existed in those places in the Biblical report). It is also interesting that the finds are so far south and don't show the typical Egyptian "ripoff" style monarchic Israel seems to have employed, nor do they really match with the more common "fertility amulet" images more common in monarchic-period finds.

In the temple of YHWH at Elephantine, it appears a female deity may have been known there too, one "Anat-Yahu". Anat, of course, was known in Ugarit texts as well. Whether Anat-Yahu was an actual female deity or some sort of "aspect" attributed to YHWH is not clear from the Elephantine texts. But whatever she was, the Elephantine worshippers weren't shy about mentioning her when writing to Jerusalem asking for things (suggesting that it wasn't an unfamiliar concept to them).

The seeming temple at Tel Arad we know less about - we do have ostracons from the site, but they only refer to the site as the "House of YHWH" - whether any Asherah or Anat-Yahu was involved there, we don't know.

Anonymous said...

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous (4:32)

I can understand reluctance on the part of some to come forward. But nobody? Out of so many? The silence is deafening. Many stepped forward to accuse Harvey Weinstein.

I know how condoms work. How do you know they were always used?

LXX:

You just begged the question. You assumed to be true what was under debate as a matter of question. How about you offer up some credible evidence instead.


OK...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQuz1hY8jkc


is that clear enough?



LXX

Anonymous said...

It's humorous to me how we have the same poster (Mr 220years) who likes to drop numbers about how expensive the things he works on are, like that's some indication of manliness or importance. When I was an airline pilot I flew brand new Bombardier aircraft fresh out of the factory, which started at $20M a pop. These were cheap compared to the Boeings that flew all around us. I also flew multi-million dollar aircraft for very high-profile owners that I will not name. So I'm not very impressed with a few bucks for a piece of machinery. And I'm not "some flight instructor" that no one has ever heard of. YOU haven't heard of me and you believe that applies to every other human on the planet that YOU never heard of. I have 40+ years of aviation experience, including in the airlines and was supposed to fly on 9-11. What were you doing on 9-11? I have LIVE tv and radio experience under my belt and have said these things in PUBLIC for over 14 years...have you? I have faith in the Creator to protect me for stepping out into the world.

You come on here to belittle anyone who doesn't conform to YOUR specific HWA view of the world, but you have been left behind. You are now nothing but an old relic of times past and you are unable to change with the times or seasons. But I can change and I have. I also enjoy living rent-free in that ancient mind of yours. You need to snap out of the petrified views of your old ways and embrace the future, old man. Otherwise you'll be like the rest of mankind going "what happened" when the end comes crashing down around them as they are completely not prepared for what is happening.

And stop comparing me to HWA troglodytes. They are the fools I separated from.


LXX

RSK said...

Now, Deuteronomy states "You shall not plant any tree as an Asherah beside the altar of the Lord your God which you shall make". Elsewhere in the record there are references to "Asherah poles". The KJV uses the term "grove" for different reasons.
Gideon, in particular, is sent to destroy an altar to Ba'al and an associated "Asherah" nearby. What is this Asherah? A tree, apparently, for it's used as firewood for a sacrificial offering afterwards. (Humorously, WCG's "Bible Story" depicted it as an image of a goddess emerging from an egg, with all the Easter connotations.)

Miller Jones said...

SwampWatcher,

I appreciate your concern for my father’s ministry, but I’m not sure how the above article damages his ministry. My relationship with my father is, frankly, none of your business. Nevertheless, just for the record, I love and respect my father and would never intentionally do anything to hurt or dishonor him. Yes, we have profoundly different views regarding human sexuality. He’s free to express his views on the topic and often does. Likewise, I’m free to express my views and do from time to time.
I’m sorry that you’re under the impression that I live in a glass house where this topic is concerned – I don’t! I must admit that I’m a little surprised by your reaction to an article that makes NO mention of homosexuality. The article was intended to address only the topic of Armstrong attitudes toward heterosexual sex. Nevertheless, since you raise the topic of my own sexual orientation (which I have frequently referenced in other articles, posts and comments and is well known to long-time users of this blog), I will respond to your unsupported speculation about me.
I am fifty-nine years old, and a Sabbath observing Christian. I am the father of two beautiful daughters and the grandfather of five spectacular grandchildren. Not that it’s anybody’s business, but I have been celibate now for about fifteen years. I live with my ex-wife, the mother of my daughters and grandmother of my grandchildren. Just like you, I did not choose my sexual orientation. If I’d had any choice in the matter, like most folks, I would have chosen the path of least resistance. I have not enjoyed the names and ridicule that some folks feel justified in directing my way.
I am also aware of the scriptures regarding homosexual BEHAVIOR which you referenced in your remarks. To be clear, in keeping with YOUR understanding of those scriptures, I am not living in violation of ANY of them. Your implication that all homosexuals are potential pedophiles is a disgusting and disproved stereotype. Once again, for the record, there aren’t ANY lawsuits or allegations in my background – lingering or otherwise! In fact, I have quite intentionally lived my life in such a way as to be above reproach on this subject (in order to give moral weight to the opinions I offer on the subject).
You appear to be following the example of Donald Trump in this regard – Attack those whom you perceive to be enemies or threats with accusations that have NO basis in fact and are completely unsupported by ANY evidence. Instead of attacking me, why not attempt to disprove the points that I’ve made in the above post? Finally, sorry, I will not shut up, sit down or go away. Don’t be sad, be glad! (Oops, that one may already be taken)

Anonymous said...

NEO
You don't win points in the ACOGs by telling members that you have slept around. One would expect deafening silence from the women. I recall being told that GTAs assistants lined up women for him when I started attending services in the 1970s. To me, the body of evidence is there. Your O J Simpson type defence of him is disappointing.

Miller Jones said...

By the way, I don't see how the part of my ancestry which is derived from Gaul has anything to do with my comments about Herbert and Garner Ted - The gall of some people!

Anonymous said...

The legal system is partial to criminals, and bends over backwards to give them every benefit of the doubt. Applying courtroom procedures and standards in everyday life is not practical. Nck is notorious for doing this in his defence of his hero HWA. And now NEO has joined him with his defence of GTA. It seems that Nck and NEO are the Batman and Robin of defending ACOGs bad guys.

Byker Bob said...

LXX: Our blogging community here at Banned by HWA is in a sense a judge and jury, evaluating all incoming information which is presented here. We've got a pretty darned good track record of dealing with all the tinfoil people who have come here with interpretations of prophecy over the years, and not just the individuals who first received their exposure to prophecy through HWA. We've given Harold Camping a proper drubbing, as well as Tim LaHaye and his Left Behind series. NOBODY understands prophecy, and even if they did, nobody listens to it because during our own lifespans, wannabe prophets have been universally wrong, and their words totally valueless. President Trump is in no way the King of the North! Each of us could say many things about him of a critical nature based on our own politics, our own ethics and morality, and our individual likes and dislikes, but at the end of the day, he's just another president. Not too long ago, back during Bush II's presidency, there were fearful discussions by tinfoil folks about the Patriot Act, the New World Order, the FEMA camps, Cheney and Halliburton, and the carefully cultivated red heifers of Clyde Lott. We've also been exposed to much speculation based on historical Catholic literature regarding the so-called last pope. It's even difficult to frame this as harmless entertainment, as we do with astrology, because fearmongering really messes up peoples' lives. It is a control tactic for whichnthere is no proper use.

Different topic, but on the GTA thingie, there is the infamous masseuse videotape, which casts Garner Ted in a really negative light. Unlike the legendary Lochner tapes or flog log, this video tape has actually seen the light of day. Taken alone, it was sufficiently damaging that it would have been a career ender for most in the ministry. Also, John Trechak, who was a friend of mine back in the day, did have names of some of the ladies whom GTA had bedded. They did come forward. In fact, John and his copublisher of the early Ambassador Reviews had a falling out because that partner wanted to actually publish the names of these ladies, but John's sense of ethics would not allow him to forever tarnish GTA's victims. There was also great fear in the HQ area regarding one of the cuckolded husbands, threats were made, police were involved, and there was a restraining order against the man. There was also a lady whom I knew, a fellow student who later became an acclaimed writer, whose best friend at AC suddenly left college due to having been impregnated by GTA. Check out the Ambassador Report archives, all preserved at the Painful Truth website, and there is a wealth of material on GTA

Lastly, like some of the musicians from the classic rock era who are still operating at peak power, I wonder what things are going to be like when our generation is gone. There is a wealth of first hand information and experience that, even though I know equally talented generations will be around to assume the mantle, is going to be lost. My hope is that we have made enough noise about charlatans and their very damaging techniques that a whole new batch of religious criminals will not emerge. Am I being naive regarding this? I tend to think not. I've witnessed complete shifts in other areas of collective thinking over time. As an example, with all that is known today about human behavior surrounding addictions, lives that would have been certainly lost years ago are now being saved, and lived out with a quality unimaginable decades ago. Attitudes towards tobacco have become such that smokers are now pariahs under constant pressure from all fronts to indulge in smoking cessation programs. As a society, we are growing more towards social justice for all. There is much fuel for hope if we don't succumb to the negative ninnies who would bring us down!

BB

Byker Bob said...

Oops, forgot to answer one of šŸ¤® the "prophet's" questions. On 9/11, I was (drum roll) out in the field working on peoples' expensive equipment.

BB

Anonymous said...

Why do your comments not ring true LXX ?

Anonymous said...

Instead of an apple in the hand of a pretty girl for a cover shot, maybe they should have used a nude photo of HWA with a bottle of Harvey's Bristol Cream.

Anonymous said...

"Just like you, I did not choose my sexual orientation."



so, are you blaming God for your sinful desires? or do you see it as a birth defect?

if you encourage others to engage in homosexuality you are as guilty as they are, whether or not you actually engage in the act yourself.

Anonymous said...

Just sitting here enjoying the mocking posts, hell I'm not even involved yet I always get accused while no one else does. One person seems to have an agenda against me and I don't give a rat's ass!

km

Anonymous said...

"Unfortunately, Lonnie doesn’t realize just how damaging he is to his own fathers ministry."


Interesting, just how many fathers do you have Lonnie? Btw, how is your fathers' ministry doing?

km

Near_Earth_Object said...

Anonymous (10:10) wrote: "It seems that Nck and NEO are the Batman and Robin of defending ACOGs bad guys."

I am not teamed with NCK in any way. I mostly don't understand what he writes. In fact, I had no idea that he was an HWA supporter, if he is. And your expanding the scope of this beyond GTA through the use of "bad guys" is concocted and prejudicial. And I prefer to be Batman.

I do not intend to mount a defense of GTA. But I think the oddity of his case should be obvious to anyone. He is accused of a crime whose magnitude is characterized by his own description while in a state of anger. And there is no evidence that corresponds to the scope of what he describes. And his political adversaries were many. This tends to make me think and should make anyone consider that there is propaganda and misinformation involved. I think he had enough faults that exaggeration is unnecessary.

To help you gauge my position on this, I also do not believe in such vapid fables as the Bermuda Triangle or the Sasquatch or that Donald Trump is a good person.

Near_Earth_Object said...

RSK:

Thanks for the information concerning Asherah. My point is that anyone can appropriate the name of El or Yahweh for their own religious purposes. So to consider every reference discovered to be a legitimate extension of the Hebrew texts (as DD apparently assumes) doesn't fly. This is a common argument of atheists to intermix the Hebrew texts with similar but external texts such as the Canaanite writings that contain all kinds of custom ideas. And then to proclaim this all has to do with the Christian God. Just some obvious sleight of hand. The Canaanites were clearly condemned in the religion of Yahweh as evil. So even though the Canaanites had a form of the religion of El in the mix with their polytheism, should we resort to the paganized Canaanite writings to find out more about the El of the Hebrews? I think not.


The Painful Truth said...

Let's talk about SEX!
-----------------------
The AC Dating Game
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2019/04/28/the-ac-dating-game/

Dating at Ambassador
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2019/04/27/dating-at-ambassador/

In bed with Garner Ted
https://hwarmstrong.com/blog/2020/02/22/in-bed-with-garner-ted/

Anonymous said...

This is the craziest bunch of comments I have ever seen here in Gary's blog.

The Painful Truth said...

Defenders of GTA. Watch the little vagabond creep at work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQuz1hY8jkc

nck said...

10:10

Yes. I'm sorry to apply the highest legal standards when someone is accused of vile criminal activity. Regarding HWA I found the presented "evidence" so flimsy that I did not bother to end up in a "yes or no" or haved you read the painf tr articles that I just raised the bar to common legal standards for criminal cases.

Nck

Anonymous said...

RSK,

Regarding the Elephantine, you may want to watch Nehemia's interview with Prof Bezalel Porten here to get a correct understanding.

Nehemia recommends that one watches his prior interview with Prof Porten first, The Aramaic Name of God to understand the background on how the Jews arrived in Egypt as mercenaries.

The Painful Truth said...

February 22, 2020 at 8:34 AM
nc said:
Yes. I'm sorry to apply the highest legal standards when someone is accused of vile criminal activity. Regarding HWA I found the presented "evidence" so flimsy that I did not bother to end up in a "yes or no" or haved you read the painf tr articles that I just raised the bar to common legal standards for criminal cases.

-------------------------------------
So everyone is lying including the video???: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQuz1hY8jkc

Anonymous said...

Anon Feb21 @5:42pm said, "… so solo masturbation shouldn’t be condemned for young Christian singles who need a healthy outlet…"

Orthodox Judaism prohibits male masturbation. Women are allowed :)

Anonymous said...

LXX,

I do not believe POTUS is the king of the North. If I have to speculate, POTUS, not necessarily the current one, is the king of Tyre. Tyre is an apt description of the USA.

Retired Prof said...

Anon Feb. 22 at 5:22 AM quoted Lonnie:

"Just like you, I did not choose my sexual orientation."

Then 5:22 asks a (presumably) rhetorical question:

"so, are you blaming God for your sinful desires? or do you see it as a birth defect?"

He/she follows up with a judgemental pronouncement:

"if you encourage others to engage in homosexuality you are as guilty as they are, whether or not you actually engage in the act yourself."


Damn, I've been doing it wrong all these years. I've been acting as if individuals need to be free to make their own choices and suffer their own consequences. Now I see, thanks to your admonition, how wrong it is to tell people to work out their own salvation in fear and trembling.

Hm. Probably that advice applied only to the specific congregation of Phillipians the epistle was addressed to. All the rest of us are responsible for everyone else's behavior.

Good to know. From here on out, I plan to play holy hall monitor and keep tabs on everybody I run across. I will sternly warn all sinners to shape up or face the lake of fire. I'll lose a lot of friends that way, but at least I won't bear the guilt for their sins in addition to my own.

Anonymous said...

Garner Ted was a sex addict. He did far worse than the typical gossip on here.


Anonymous said...

RSK,

2 Chronicles 6:5-6, "Since the day that I brought My people out of the land of Egypt, I have chosen no city from any tribe of Israel in which to build a house, that My name might be there, nor did I choose any man to be a ruler over My people Israel. Yet I have chosen Jerusalem, that My name may be there, and I have chosen David to be over My people Israel."

It should be a red flag to any student of the bible if they read a temple (Elephantine) other than the one in Jerusalem. Any artifacts or inscriptions found in such temples should be suspect for pagan influence or corruption.

Tanakh is called scriptures. As canon, any other writings should be measured or compared against it to verify whether such writings conform to its teachings.

nck said...

Yes Painful Truth 9:51

The standard needs to be at the extreme highest level as long as people use "evidence" for one person to accuse another. That's why "the mob" should never get a chance to voice their legal opinion. Mob rule is plain stupid as you just proved by posting a GTA video while I spoke of HWA only.

Nck

Anonymous said...

There are those who consider themselves as having left Armstrongism, but who still believe and keep the core doctrines and are waiting for some modified version of Herbie's teachings of the prophecies to come to pass. They defend their faith as tenaciously as any Armstrongite, but become indignant if you associate them with Armstrongism. Seems weird to most, but it makes sense to them. If they post as anonymous, you really can't tell them apart from the splinter members, except that some splinter members are more liberal and less hostile.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

Why do your comments not ring true LXX ?
February 22, 2020 at 1:16 AM


Probably because you are an uncircumcised Philistine who cannot grasp truth, but that's just my guess.


LXX

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

LXX,

I do not believe POTUS is the king of the North. If I have to speculate, POTUS, not necessarily the current one, is the king of Tyre. Tyre is an apt description of the USA.

February 22, 2020 at 10:15 AM

Your speculation does not line up with the facts on the ground, nor Dan 11:40/Matt 24/Rev 13.

The KN leads the military branch comprised of the USA/NATO forces supporting Zionism. He also leads the G7/ten zones block, which Trump does today. These forces will invade the Middle East (are invading) and take out the King of the South, Iran. Then the Kings from the East (Russia/China) will challenge the KN and will eventually wind up in the Jezreel Valley leading to Armageddon and the return of the Messiah.

It all fits together.

I recommend the following video for clarification:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTbg11pCwOc&t=6s

Dr Paul Craig Roberts also has many articles posted on his site detailing the USA/NATO's Middle East aggressions and conflicts with Russia and China.


LXX

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

There are those who consider themselves as having left Armstrongism, but who still believe and keep the core doctrines and are waiting for some modified version of Herbie's teachings of the prophecies to come to pass. They defend their faith as tenaciously as any Armstrongite, but become indignant if you associate them with Armstrongism. Seems weird to most, but it makes sense to them. If they post as anonymous, you really can't tell them apart from the splinter members, except that some splinter members are more liberal and less hostile.
February 22, 2020 at 11:51 AM

I'll consider your post a swipe at me personally, 11:51.

I can't fathom how much I detest anything Armstrong. Actually HWA never had an original thought in his head and plagiarized his dogma from COG7 and others, so no I do not align myself with COG7 or Millerism. The people you seem to describe who cling to Armstrongism in the splinters are like Theil, Pack, Flurry etc. On my exit out of the WCG I was involved with a few splinters. That is when I rejected Armstrongism completely. He did teach seventh day observation, but that was not original to him. Just because I keep the commandments does not mean I have any hidden sympathies for that man. He caused tremendous pain and suffering in my family, going on to this very day. Plus he really never did understand what he was talking about.

I was raised as a second Baptist. From your take, I probably still hold to my original religious upbringing, which I do not.


LXX

Miller Jones said...

I have always been amazed by the willingness of some individuals to excuse almost any sinful heterosexual behavior while severely censuring any homosexual behavior. The rationale seems to be that heterosexual sins are not as bad as homosexual ones. Adultery, incest, pedophilia, whoring, rape and multiple marriages are excused as long as the individual is a heterosexual! However, if someone is attracted to members of their own gender (even if they don't act on it), they are quickly consigned to the Lake of Fire. I guess that's what causes folks to giggle when their adulterous pastor stands up in front of the congregation and makes fun of faggots, sissies, queers and pansies! Wink, wink - he's a man's man - he knows what women are for!

I was a virgin when I was married. I have only been the husband of one wife (and no men). I was faithful to my wife throughout our marriage, and I have now been celibate for many years. I wonder how many of my detractors can say those things? I am fifty-nine years old and can still count the number of sexual partners I've had on one hand with a couple of fingers going unused (and it wasn't because I didn't have opportunities). What does your track record look like Swampthing? Did Herbert or Garner Ted meet the criteria outlined by Paul for church leaders? I'd say pull the frame house out of your eye before you worry about the Redwood sawdust in mine! Come on, how do we compare? Who is more morally fit to discuss human sexuality? Of course, if we're talking about experience, I'm willing to admit that you may have the edge over me (although less is sometimes more)!

Anonymous said...

LXX,

My speculation is that POTUS is the king of Tyre. Yes, it doesn't line up because Dan 11 is about king of the North. Hiram, King of Tyre, was a loving friend to David and Solomon (1 Kings 5:1). He not only supplied materials but also provided men, including Hiram the master craftsman, to help in building the Temple (1 Kings 5:8,18; 2 Chronicles 2:12-14).

As I have said, it is just speculation. Regarding your assertion, I still do not believe it.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who doubts GTAs lechery is refusing to face reality. The man was an addict. I was a student at the time he was in action, and I could pretty much predict which of the new female students he would pursue. Myself, I was safely not on the list despite being female. For a while I thought I was imagining things, and at the time being sexually naive I didn't have confidence in my feelings on this matter. But looking back it was obvious. I am sure the people who don't want to believe it was happening are men, who admittedly are often almost totally ignorant of female sexuality, and stay that way when involved with a religion like WCG (the leaders don't want any competition). There is not much likelihood that a woman would want to admit been conquered by such a sleeze, an old sleeze at that. Yuck.

I never heard him preaching against abortion.....but he is probably one of those religious leaders who are against 'killing babies', until they cause someone to get pregnant, and then you'd have to be worried about your life if you didn't get an abortion right away.

Anonymous said...

72 comments. Nothing brings 'em out like sex.

Retired Prof said...

LXX and Feb 22 at 12:45 PM, you are both wrong.

Where the rubber meets the road, the King of Tyre is B.F. Goodrich. Although some have the gaul to say his name is Michelin.

Anonymous said...

LXX,

Are you Peter Salemi?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSkjjPKxuzw

Byker Bob said...

LXX @ 12:03 "It all fits"

That's the problem with prophecy. It often appears to fit, but then suddenly it doesn't.. All of the HWAcaca appeared to fit leading up to and during WW-II, until the Allies won the war. Hitler and Mussolini appeared to be very credible as the Beast power, and then they were gone. Next outing, during the 1950s and '60s, it once again appeared to fit during the emergence of the European Common Market, and the breakdown of society around us involving the radical left, civil rights activists, and the womens' movement, our inability to win the Vietnam War, the downward slide of the US economy, the resignation of a disgraced Vice President, and then the President, and the ecological crisis that was allowed to reach critical mass prior to the creation of the EPA. Then, suddenly, everything changed, and once again it didn't fit. The players had appeared to be in place, but didn't make the plays anticipated by the prophecy buffs, and it all faded. Several years later, Ronald Reagan ushered in a totally new era. More recently, the events of 9/11 did not fit the Armstrong mold, because the architects of the events came from the Muslim Arabic world, and not the Catholic European one.

We should all be cautioned by the methodology of Alexander Hislop, who is noteworthy to most historians for the gigantic unwarranted leaps he made between his so-called research and his conclusions, and also for his outright fabrications. For these actions, he is held in very ill repute by the vast majority of historians familiar with his work. You were informed of Ralph Woodrow, who was once a latter day disciple of Hislop, and wrote a book of his own which mirrored that of Hislop. Later in life, Woodrow became painfully aware of his errors in so doing, and wrote another book repudiating his earlier conclusions.

Prophecy has been the opposite of helpful in the planning of its followers' lives. Until events actually play out, prophecy is the byproduct of speculation. For the most part, it does not protect people. Rather, it has a history of people becoming hurt and damaged by believing the speculation, and making the wrong decisions. Belief in prophetic speculation prevents people from making long range life plans. It prevents them from formulating real relationships. So, it is potentially a very damaging thing that you are doing in proclaiming that President Trump is King of the North. Just as damaging as what HWA did. I don't believe you are going to consider this or cease and desist from it. I doubt that you can help yourself in this, because you appear to fit a certain mental profile, one to which I alluded earlier in our discussion. Good luck with that.

BB

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

LXX,

My speculation is that POTUS is the king of Tyre. Yes, it doesn't line up because Dan 11 is about king of the North. Hiram, King of Tyre, was a loving friend to David and Solomon (1 Kings 5:1 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ). He not only supplied materials but also provided men, including Hiram the master craftsman, to help in building the Temple (1 Kings 5:8 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ,18 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ; 2 Chronicles 2:12-14 [Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)] ).

As I have said, it is just speculation. Regarding your assertion, I still do not believe it.
February 22, 2020 at 12:45 PM

12:45,

Thanks for the comments. I really don't get your point about the King of Tyre, but am open to your line of thinking. You'll need to give me more info than what you have posted. Also, the USA is the fourth and final iteration of Rome, the legs of Iron..specifically the feet and toes. Trump is the last "Caesar" or KING. Rome has had four subsequent divisions since Julius Caesar:

1. Octavian (Augustus)
2. Napoleon
3. Hitler
4. Trump (G7/Club of Rome's ten zones)

I'm not here to persuade or convince anyone of anything. I really don't care what you or anyone here believes or does not believe, I just drop by occasionally to cause trouble.

Miller Jones said...

The speculation about who the King of the North might be is hilarious! Some of us will do anything not to talk about sex. Byker Bob is quite right to underscore the horrible track record of ALL of the folks who have sought to interpret prophecy in the light of current events.
Frankly, I think that it is a fool's errand to attempt to identify a current world leader as being either the King of the North or the King of the South. And I would say that anyone who doesn't have a solid understanding of the events surrounding the Maccabean Revolt, and the role of the Egyptian and Syrian Greeks during those times, should stay far away from these prophecies! Study that history and then give us your impressions.
POTUS as the King of Tyre. Yeah, I can see Trump as a type of Satan! That one makes some sense!

Anonymous said...

BB,

I am intimately familiar with the Ambassador Report and the PT blogs. Those both helped me on my way out of the WCG. I was viciously attacked back in the day after HWA's death when I mentioned some negative comments about HWA to a church friend. A few years later I watched that same friend throw all of his bibles and WCG literature into a trash can.

I don't care much about prophecy. To me it's just another way to verify scripture correct. I'm only trying to call it as I see it, and from what I see happening today everything is lining up with Dan 11/Rev 13. I believe that Trump will be re-elected and that Pope Francis will live long enough to join him in a newly constructed Temple in Jerusalem, which the Temple Mount Institute is feverishly pushing for.

I'm looking forward to the return of the Messiah and receiving my new eternal Spirit Body, one just like His.


Cheers:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohi5S6j75f4


LXX

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob said...

LXX @ 12:03 "It all fits"

That's the problem with prophecy. It often appears to fit, but then suddenly it doesn't.. All of the HWAcaca appeared to fit leading up to and during WW-II, until the Allies won the war. Hitler and Mussolini appeared to be very credible as the Beast power, and then they were gone.

HWA was wrong. That's my point. Hitler never had thermo-nuclear weapons that are able to vaporize the planet, like is mentioned in Matt 24:22. Trump has them today. I heard recently that ONE Russian sub off the east coast could permanently wipe out the entire USA. HWA was unaware of the FOUR iterations of Rome in Daniel's statue.

"More recently, the events of 9/11 did not fit the Armstrong mold, because the architects of the events came from the Muslim Arabic world, and not the Catholic European one."

Of course not. HWA did not understand scripture or prophecy.

"Prophecy has been the opposite of helpful in the planning of its followers' lives. Until events actually play out, prophecy is the byproduct of speculation. For the most part, it does not protect people. Rather, it has a history of people becoming hurt and damaged by believing the speculation, and making the wrong decisions."

WRONG. I guess you dismiss the Messiah's warnings in Matt 24. Ridiculous. WE are commanded to WATCH and PRAY always to escape ALL THESE THINGS. I'll stick with the Messiah.

"So, it is potentially a very damaging thing that you are doing in proclaiming that President Trump is King of the North. Just as damaging as what HWA did. I don't believe you are going to consider this or cease and desist from it. I doubt that you can help yourself in this, because you appear to fit a certain mental profile, one to which I alluded earlier in our discussion. Good luck with that."

BB

So, me trusting scripture is to you a "certain mental profile". You're trying to use a psychological trick in an attempt to guilt me in my position. Sorry doesn't work. You sound like my ex-girlfriend. I've considered many things and have changed drastically over the years, such as when I left the WCG,GCG,ICG,and finally TPM. You claim I am wrong, but you haven't proven that. What if I am right? Looks like we will both find out soon enough.

Here's one of Trump's rally intro songs: (I'm sure you've heard of the Stones)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O76up_zH88k

Not only did HWA not understand prophecy, he also did not grasp our real purpose for existence. I never once heard him describe how we as humans are not from this planet, or that the Messiah died TWICE. I never heard him discuss the observable new moon calendar, or correctly talk about the "Eighth Day" holy day. But I'm sure you'll just conclude that I am suffering from a certain "mental profile"...you really see yourself as a psychologist don't you?

And for the love of all that is good and right, STOP comparing me to my mortal enemy HWA....he wreaked havoc in my family and still affects me to this very day. It all started when my dad got the booklet "1975 in Prophecy". I have that exact same booklet on my desk.


LXX


Anonymous said...

Miller Jones said...


Frankly, I think that it is a fool's errand to attempt to identify a current world leader as being either the King of the North or the King of the South. And I would say that anyone who doesn't have a solid understanding of the events surrounding the Maccabean Revolt, and the role of the Egyptian and Syrian Greeks during those times, should stay far away from these prophecies! Study that history and then give us your impressions.
POTUS as the King of Tyre. Yeah, I can see Trump as a type of Satan! That one makes some sense!
February 22, 2020 at 2:55 PM

Hi Miller,

I have studied that exact history for many years now and am familiar with what you say. Antiochus IV, Epiphanes is one of the "Kings of the North" described in Dan 11, coming after Alexander the Great. I have read Josephus for years concerning him and his acts to cause the "Desecration of Abomination" we are warned about in Matt 24.
From his actions, and the cleansing of the Temple by the Maccabees in 165BC we have the Feast of Dedication. I have studied the subject of the Temples with great interest for years, as it is one of my favorite topics. I suggest the book "The Temples that Jerusalem Forgot" by Dr. Earnest L Martin for further understanding of this fascinating topic. To me, he has proven conclusively that ALL of the Temples stood in the City of David, just above the Gihon Spring, and NEVER up on the fake "Temple Mount" as pushed by the propagandists in Jerusalem today. The rock under the Dome of the Rock was well known prior to the Muslim era to be the exact spot that the Messiah was judged by Pilate (the Lithostrotos/Gabbatha). Queen Helena had a church built over the spot for that exact reason, an OCTAGONAL church.

Thanks for the input.


LXX

Allen C. Dexter said...

Everybody yearns to know what the future holds. Thus, the allure of prophecy. We desperately want to be able to see what's ahead and be able to protect ourselves. It's a total illusion. There is no plan being carried out by any higher power because no such power does exist and never did. Anybody can make guesses and some rare times guess pretty accurately. But, it's a fluke. I can predict things too, and sometimes I guess right. More often, I'm woefully off base because I have no way of knowing all the factors that can and likely will come into play. The Bible is centered around the Middle East and Mediteranian world of centuries ago. Trying to graft in political entities of the present and make sense out it is folly in the extreme. I know partially what's going on in the world of today, and I can guess at some things and be right once in awhile. However, no god is controlling anything and outcomes are determined by what flesh and blood human beings do or don't do.

Near_Earth_Object said...

LXX:

Hi, Mr. Seventy. Are you seventy years old? Or is that the number of elders in the Great Assembly? Or is that the number of races of mankind on earth? Or is that a lucky number in Armstrongist numerology?

You're having us on, aren't you? Nobody who dislikes Armstrongism so much can maintain such a dedicated belief in Armstrongist prophetic interpretation - the prophetic model that failed HWA and Hoeh repeatedly. In 2024 you can join William Miller with the rest.

Byker Bob is right. No need for me to repeat it.

Anonymous said...

LXX = Septuagint

Anonymous said...

"In 2024 you can join William Miller with the rest."


2024 is irrelevant to those who believe that Trump is currently King of the North. Trump also is irrelevant because the belief is that since the US heads the United Nations then whomever is the POTUS is the King of the North. I guess Warren would be the Queen of the North if elected.

In no way am I saying that I believe this, I'm just clarifying the viewpoint.


km

Anonymous said...

Since this thread is about sex shouldn't it have topped out with 69 posts?

km

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"In 2024 you can join William Miller with the rest."


2024 is irrelevant to those who believe that Trump is currently King of the North. Trump also is irrelevant because the belief is that since the US heads the United Nations then whomever is the POTUS is the King of the North. I guess Warren would be the Queen of the North if elected.

In no way am I saying that I believe this, I'm just clarifying the viewpoint.


km
February 22, 2020 at 7:05 PM

You just couldn't stand sitting on the sidelines with this one right? I mean you being on the sidelines is your normal spot. And please tell us where it says the President heads the UN. You're just making that up aren't you? Come talk to me in 2024, clown.


LXX

Byker Bob said...

LXX:
The lesson of Matt. 24 isn't that we're to read the news and compare the players on the world stage to the characters and events in Daniel and Revelation. The lesson of Matt. 24 is that if you are right with God, then He's going to break things in your ultimate favor, for your eternal edification. What could you do for yourself if a powerful public figure came down on you with the full force of the government? In other words, of what value would simply knowing who the King of the North is? Where would you go? In the face of that power, any sort of place of safety could only involve superior power, as in being under God's umbrella. It's not some place to which you would go based on watching, waiting, and guessing.

There's a quasi-axiom I ran across years ago that seems paradoxic, but in many cases it ends up being true. We as humans often begin to resemble our enemies. We gradually become very much like them in our efforts to defeat them. That is one of the reasons why it would be very bad to hate HWA. We can trouble shoot and critique him, but if we see him as a constant enemy, we continue to give him power over us, and meet like force with like force. This diminishes us in stature as opposed to promoting growth. I realized that I needed to forgive him years ago, and did so. What would any of us do if God required us to mentor to HWA in the future, assuming that there is a second resurrection in which people actually get their real chance? It's food for thought.

BB

nck said...

Why is Liz Warren mentioned on a sex topic?

Anyway. One of the more interesting comments I find, is the one a lady made about "us" not understanding female sexuality and therefore not understanding what really had transpired between 200 coeds and Garner Ted.

What do you mean mam?

That men do not understand that many females go for the obnoxious alpha male whose birthright is to have as much off spring as desired and the beautiful teen girls go for the exciting guys with the scooters who are going to dump them a 100 percent in a later stage anyway and they wind up in unhappy marriages in later stage since they were "trained" to seek out men with narcissist characteristics.

Anyway I for a long time I wondered why millionaire Hollywood women put up with filth that beat and abuse them at times.

Indeed female sexuality is so much more intriguing than that of simple men. Perhaps just because some do understand the simplicity of men and females have so much more fun in dealing with complex social relations.

Nck

Anonymous said...

wow Gary...

why all the censorship?

I guess you think it is fair for a stream of attacks on me coming in is fine, but to defend myself is not? BB started this entire thread with his attacks on me in his twisted defense of Armstrongism sexual perversions, which he then turned into an attack on me.

way to go!


LXX

Anonymous said...

Miller Jones said: “The rationale seems to be that heterosexual sins are not as bad as homosexual ones. Adultery, incest, pedophilia, whoring, rape and multiple marriages are excused as long as the individual is a heterosexual! However, if someone is attracted to members of their own gender (even if they don't act on it), they are quickly consigned to the Lake of Fire.”

Well said Jones! ;-) And most if not all of those sex sins you mentioned merit the death penalty in the Bible too. But, adulterers, pedos, rapists, etc will be forgivenšŸ™„ It makes me think of Aussie rugby player and Christian Israel Folau who posted on Twitter last year that drunks, liars, homos, adulterers, fornicaters, thieves, atheists, idolaters would go to hell. The media honed in on the homos bit claiming he was being homophobic. It made me angry since he mentioned many sins and not just homosexuality. So if he was being homophobic then he was being liarphobic, adulteryphobic, drunkphobic, etc too! So inconsistent Western Christianity is.

Anonymous said...

Byker Bob said...

LXX:
The lesson of Matt. 24 isn't that we're to read the news and compare the players on the world stage to the characters and events in Daniel and Revelation.


HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA.....!!! ok satan.

What other reason did the Messiah take the time of day to explain future prophetic events then ,you total uneducated clown? This is something I'd expect Pack or Flurry to say. So much for your "authority on scripture". What a dismiss-able dufuss..!!!

I guess I can just throw my bible in the trash then, since any warning given to me by the Messiah is meaningless. WOW..!!

The truth really does come out sooner or later doesn't it, barfer blob?


LXX (hopefully Gary will post my response to your nonsense)

nck said...

I don't believe GTA bedded more than 5 or 6 due to the laws of social interaction within closed groups.

Anyway, the reason I would defend women to the death is because they would ask "what are you doing"? Then the male responds, I'm figuring out who is to be the King of the North, or I'm replacing parts on my bike. Then the woman would smile and say, "well don't forget your pizza, it's warm"..... Wandering off in doubt WHY the man doesn't love her more.

At the same time the man does indeed loves the woman more, since..............indeed...... by some kind of miraculous and mysterious intervention....... the pizza on his plate was warm still........

Nck

Byker Bob said...

Probably the reason why there is never much commentary on sexual, or more specifically homosexual topics, is that in our WCG training, homosexuality was never understood as an orientation with which one was born. It was seen by the church as being "catching" like a cold or virus. There is also anecdotal evidence of seductions. So, there is a certain residual amount of fear in even attempting to understand it.

Compassion and nonjudgementalism are always in good style, since, like it or no, all of us sin.

BB

Anonymous said...

Do you truly mean what you type Nck? Why do you defend a serial sex addict?

It is well established in CGI branches off the WCG tree; that Garner Ted was a regular customer at brothels throughout his Ministry.
But he wasn't the charming seducer playboy his reputation gave him. He ended up being barred from several brothels because he would beat up the prostitutes.

So reality can be far stranger than fiction. Eveything has never been quite how the WCG wanted it perceived.

Byker Bob said...

LXX @ 9:51, That is not what happened. How do you derive from anything I posted that I defended Armstrong's twisted sexual perversions??? In fact, I blamed HWA's twisted version of prophecy on those perversions! I believe there was a curse on his ministry because of what he did to his daughter, and all of us church members suffered because we were in reality his codependents.

Don't even get me started on your meltdown at 10:24! What I tried to explain to you is pretty much the mainstream Christian understanding of Matt. 24. If you are right with God, He'll be watching out for you.

I'm sorry to set you off like that. Seriously, are you OK? Are you not accustomed to people challenging your beliefs??? That's part of what we do here. You should also know that Gary doesn't usually censor unless someone's comments are pretty bad!

BB

Anonymous said...

BB
Compassion and non -judgmentalism? If a behavior is destructive, a social stigma discourages it. Hence a person is mocked in the NT for not completing a tower.

The Painful Truth said...

February 22, 2020 at 10:24 PM
wrote:

"I guess I can just throw my bible in the trash then, since any warning given to me by the Messiah is meaningless. WOW..!!"
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can see your what Eric Hoffer called "a True Believer." Completely brainwashed by the armstrongites.

And as far as throwing your bible in the trash, that's a good idea. It is NOT the word of God but the rambling's of men who belonged to various cults, both OT and NT.

But you won't toss it because you won't study the history where that book came from, how it was assembled, and all the contradictions that it has embedded within its pages. Your life is lived in error, for a god who does not exist, nor has any power over anything on earth or in the heavens.

If God is to be found, it won't be within any book.

Anonymous said...

"And please tell us where it says the President heads the UN. You're just making that up aren't you? Come talk to me in 2024, clown.


LXX"



First of all I merely quoted the 2024 comment from another poster, I didn't write it.


Second, while technically the POTUS isn't the head of the U.N. take a look at this and tell me who wields the most influence there.


https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=uHc4n2Ys&id=5B57F928A62B896E4730DE9176D21E58A937B1C7&thid=OIP.uHc4n2Ys9nX9S1ybDwmLDgHaG7&mediaurl=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn.howmuch.net%2Farticles%2FUN-Budget-RGB-7-85cf.png&exph=2338&expw=2500&q=funders+of+the+un&simid=608047569095690864&selectedindex=0&adlt=demote&shtp=GetUrl&shid=2b1cc38f-a13c-48dd-ad51-f45db4dc48e6&shtk=VmlzdWFsaXplIHRoZSBXb3JsZOKAmXMgRnVuZGluZyBmb3IgdGhlIFVuaXRlZCBOYXRpb25zIC4uLg%3D%3D&shdk=Rm91bmQgb24gQmluZyBmcm9tIHd3dy5pbnZlc3RtZW50d2F0Y2hibG9nLmNvbQ%3D%3D&shhk=DV3dSMG7xnNvkBMEL6HhPAObd1hl83dakS4iMgae8zw%3D&form=EX0023&shth=OSH.BvyznErVuyVKMlki9NMAjA


So Mr. Salemi, shut the hell up. Clown!

Anonymous said...

"And please tell us where it says the President heads the UN."


BTW, I didn't say the POTUS is the head of the U.N. I said that's what the "belief" is. Why? Because the U.S. and therefore the POTUS has the most influence on what goes on in the U.N.

Want proof? All Trump had to do was tell the countries of the U.N. to start paying their fair share, and what happened?

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/09/donald-trump-dismisses-united-nations-deficits-says-others-should-pay/3917554002/


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/10/trump-the-us-spends-many-times-more-protecting-nato-countries.html


Believe me, the U.N. will fold long before the U.S. does.



NO2HWA said...

LXX wrote:

"wow, Gary... why all the censorship? I guess you think it is fair for a stream of attacks on me coming in is fine, but to defend myself is not?"

If you cannot carry on a debate with others and use decent language then I will delete your comments. You sound just like Kevin right now and its going to stop. Disagree all you want but do it without calling people "you nasty little puke" "an annoying little pest" "you are really, really DUMB" "bat shit crazy whacho" and more. I have unfortunately let too many of your posts through before I read the entire comment, due to checking it on my phone instead of laptop.

If you are as educated about everything you claim to know then you should also be educated enough to debate in a civil manner. Its like I have a bunch of third graders on here pitching little hissy fits, but that's what I get for allowing people to comment instead of shutting them all down like Thiel and others do.

So send me private messages saying all kinds of nasty shit about me like Kevin does. I don't care. This is only a little blog in the vast universe of the internet and not some avenue to salvation.

Anonymous said...

LXX, If you can't answer just start calling names, clown, dufus, etc.

Anonymous said...

I guess I can just throw my bible in the trash then

WHICH Bible?

Luther's version that considered James, Hebrews, Jude, Revelation to be apocrypha not belonging in the canon?

Do you accept in your Old Testament only those books considered canonical by the Jews? Do you accept any texts that are in their canon but not in a Christian canon?

Do you accept the Book of Revelation, which was a late addition and (as noted above) never accepted by some theologians?

This isn't just an abstract scholarly discussion, as your doctrine and practice will vary depending on which books you consider part of your Bible, and even then there is huge variety in doctrine and practice among groups sharing the same version of the Bible.

You are partly correct, though. You can safely throw your Bible in the trash, as the Bible is/was determined by your church's history and doctrine, not the other way around. "The Bible" isn't a singular unvarying thing from which the Church has emerged. It's the other way around.

nck said...

12:43

Ok.
The contents of your comment are unbeknownst to me. Actually it is the first time I hear of this.

Anyway, it doesn't matter. GTA ceased to be qualified as a minister a long time ago in my opinion. being it 6 or 200.

Nck

Byker Bob said...

This has been a shocking reminder that there are still some mentally unstable people out there who are beyond reason, and beyond help. I'd say good riddance, but these people generally shape shift as opposed to going away. That's why I had initially thought he was another poster's sock puppet.

BB

Anonymous said...

Watch a couple minutes of the youtube video of Salemi referenced above if you can stomach it. I don't think LXX is Salemi but maybe one of his followers?

Maybe one good thing has come out of this. We now have another person to monitor, like Bob Thiel, Wade Cox, Dave Pack, Gerald Flurry, Gerald Weston, and Ron Weinland. Who knew that there was an ACOG that actually calls itself British Israel Church of God? Another little personality cult that can go into rotation for our continuing entertainment.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Watch a couple minutes of the youtube video of Salemi referenced above if you can stomach it. I don't think LXX is Salemi but maybe one of his followers?


I did and I think I made it through about 30 seconds worth. Truly disgusting. And no, I am not Salemi, thanks for the clarification.


LXX

Anonymous said...

Speaking about sex and religion gone wrong, wow!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUCIozzcHVI

the mother is now locked up in Hawaii on $5M bail.



(disclaimer: I apologize in advance if this hurts anyone's feelings)


LXX

RSK said...

That's more than I watched.