Is Herbert Armstrong even relevant any more? For that matter, is Armstrongism's history and origins worth investigation at all anymore?
After all, it is 2019. It's 33 years after Herbert Armstrong died, three decades since Armstrongism flourished in it's glory years of growth and power. Armstrongism has now convoluted and contorted itself into morbid mutants of itself, all stringing along for whatever they can grab on to to reclaim or regain some semblance of meaning. Every sort of splinter group and leader has taken - either legitimately or illegitimately, through ordination or self-appointment, through circular logic or through outright delusion - a supposed mantle to proclaim whatever version of whatever message they have convinced themselves is correct. One is forced to wonder if - with a few notable exceptions of radical hardline Armstrongism - that the religion is anything like it was. Is it even worth examining the "way things were"? Is it even logical in this eve of the 2020s to continue to investigate, to bring out, to highlight, to reverse engineer the man, Herbert, and his doctrines - and his church?
One could make many arguments in either direction. Those who are in the splinters today have argued that too much has changed - that it is nothing like it was. Yet groups still exist - some fairly good sized, yet - that are exactly the way it was, and are still out to convert - regardless of how much of their attractiveness is tangled in webs of lies and deceit. One could argue that there is too much variation now - that too many groups have gone off in far too many directions, and any correlation between the then and the now is irrelevant to the current State of Armstrongism.
One could also make the argument that the Glory Days Generation (1940s - 1980s) is quickly becoming obsolete and aging away, and those who lived in the Armstrong Era will, within the decade, be far less than even today, and it's worthless to continue on discussing the errors, flaws, failures, humanities, and problems with the teachings and doctrines of the old Worldwide Church of God. That such work simply does not relate to the way the Churches of God are today. That the new generation is acclimated and only knows life in the Splinters - much smaller, much leaner, puny by any comparison and vastly different in many areas.
Do these arguments hold any water? Should we just completely ignore or close the chapter on the old Worldwide Church of God? On Herbert Armstrong? on the Old Ambassador College? Do the "Ambassador Reports" have enough information already? Should we just focus on the splinters from here on out and ignore what was?
The danger to that approach is the rewriting of history that many splinter groups and even members have continually attempted - whether or not in extreme ignorance or just basing it on their own experience alone - to alter to their own specifications. There are those who would wish to completely white out - wash away - or even normalize - much of the historic, factual, and correct realities of the way things were based on their own perceptions and not on the hard evidence of fact. Many, today, would willingly go on the record and say a lot of things that did happen simply did not happen. They would, in feverish zeal, proclaim a rewriting of history in nearly the same manner that some splinter leaders rewrite their own history when their own prophetic speculations spectacularly fizzle in clouds of lies, and then go on deleting sprees to pretend that such things were never predicted in the first place. There is a danger to a whitewashing of the facts to those who are apologetic to the doctrines and teachings of Armstrongism. It is a recurrent danger, and a danger that is not in any way, shape, or form, going away any time soon.
We have a choice to either let untruths become the normalcy, or where one person's perception becomes the blanket truth for the entire movement. Many are uncomfortable with admitting the stark realities of the horror stories of hundreds and even thousands of people in the past. Truthfully, many are uncomfortable with admitting the stark reality of Armstrongism even as it is now. There must be a meter of balance. A meter that speaks out and says, "Yes, it WAS that bad. Maybe not for YOU, or maybe not in your recollection, but this is the way it was." There must be a level to the misinformation that attempts to whitewash Armstrongism from what it was - a cult - to something far less damaging. The truth must always stand against misinformation - every time, regardless on what end of the scale you, or I, were on.
We also know that many of those who lead the splinter groups today were those who were trained by Herbert Armstrong himself. Even though Armstrong himself is long gone - the methods, practices, doctrines, abuses, and deceptions continue virtually unabated by many, regardless of how the system may have become "modernized". A model T and a Telsa are still cars, and both will still get one from point A to point B. They still carry on the same system - and sometimes, the same format right down to the arrangement of the service structure itself. There is no doubt that the legacy of Herbert Armstrong in many groups - including British Israelism - still trumpets itself as the be all and end all of all things. In that cloud of deception, there must be an awakening of sanity.
Even though it's nearly 2020. Even though the Worldwide Church of God as it was is long gone. Even though Herbert Armstrong is dead and buried, as are many of his hirelings, we still have the Packs, the Flurrys, the Weinlands, and the Malms and Thiels out there. We still have mass deception. We still have those who would teach a false narrative above and beyond what really was and is the historical, factual reality.
This is why Armstrongism, Herbert Armstrong, the old Worldwide Church of God, it's publishing, materials, and letters must continually be shown and informed to readers for research and for education. This is why it is still relevant. This is why the origins and the beginnings through the glory days cannot and should not be ignored - even now. Because facts, and truth still matter, and cannot and should not be silenced. In the accountability of Armstrongism, the entire movement is impartially important to be held to account - regardless of what has been, what is, and what is still to come.
Submitted by SHT
81 comments:
Good to hear from SHT again!👏
My point.
Why would anyone want to follow frauds like flurry, pack and weinland?
Because some people want to follow. And cutloss after heavy investment is against human nature.
Nck
HWA is relevant to us on a continuing basis much in the same way as the holocausts are still relevant to the Armenians and Jews. We're all committed to making sure that our own personal holocausts never happen again.
BB
First this topic will be relevant as ling as there are people alive that suffered under Armatrongism. I was one if them.
Also there are people still being affected today by many bad ideas and terrible leaders that are taking advantage of them.
I still attend with a COG almost very week. And I see the lingering effects of some teachings. But on the positive side people now treat each other with respect and caring. Even the leaders where I attend are decent people.
But this is all the more reason to stay diligent. Change is just now starting to happen. And I have hope that many will see the true teachings of Jesus as our guide instead of Armstrong.
Why do I attend with a COG? Because at least they are trying to follow the bible. The ten commandments are a simple as it gets and as soon as you start justifying one change you will justify anything eventually. So when a COG starts doing good things for the community and no longer collects tithes but instead gives to the poor. Everyone here should come and meet with that group some Sabbath and b encouraged that the work they did here was worth while.
"Is Herbert Armstrong even relevant any more? For that matter, is Armstrongism's history and origins worth investigation at all anymore? "
The players are irrelevant but the story of how such people rise to high positions of authority based on personality and especially deviant personalities is timeless. Whether it be in in religion, politics or business, there always needs to be solid examples of what can go wrong and often does when people give themselves over to the views and beliefs of others. It is in the hindsight and not always during such an experience one can find their cautionary tale.
Over the years I have found myself asking myself how could I have been so naïve and gullible? Whey did I not do my homework better? What was I so afraid of that I had to alleviate that fear with religion and a false hope? etc. My personal answer is that I was young, naïve and idealistic. It also was the 60's and if you were around then, it was not difficult to believe that a Second Coming and Wonderful World Tomorrow can't be far off.
I think many of those who had just come out of WW2 or Korea and ended up in ministry did so as a reaction to their experiences with war and upheaval.
But yes, it is important to document the teachings and failures in those teachings of men with personality disorders or unchecked human ego as a cautionary tale. While we have many of these in religion already over the past 2000 years, these are recent and up to date showing that there truly is nothing new under the sun with regard to being led down a path of belief and the dangers inherent in the one man show.
A Dave Pack, Ron Weinland, Gerald Flurry and others still living are irrelevant as people. Their days are numbered as are all of ours. But their behaviors, false teachings, bad theology and prophetic absurdities are ever with us and need to be understood as such.
We didn't know the people of Jonestown personally. But we know the results of letting the mental illness or personality disorders, cloaked in religion, of a Jim Jones well. It is a timeless message and warning to the pitfalls of religious fervor, real or concocted for personal gain.
Much like the Trump Haters, the HWA Haters are blinded to the fact that the revealing that Gods Holy Days are to be kept now and in the future Kingdom of God, and that they spell out a Plan of Hope for mankind is super relevant. I knew 50 years ago that the leadership were doing the exact same thing the Apostles did just before Christ's crucifixion... fight for power and position, rather than be a servant. Christ was their teacher for 3 and half years, but they didn't get the program without the super natural change of mind brought at Pentecost.
I stayed and suffered because I know this Holy Day plan is real and is lost to 99% of world. Humans will, in the end, almost always disappoint you. I don't trust humans or follow anyone.
Jesus came to expose the religious swamp in Israel, and the swamp rejected and murdered Him. Trump came to drain the swamp in DC and he is despised and hated for shining light on their corruption and lack of action on serious American issues. Jesus was an "outsider" and not PC, same as Trump. The major difference is that Christ was humble and Trump is a uncontrolled bragger similar to HWA. No one likes a bragger.
Back when I was more naïve than I am now, I ran into what I thought was an extraordinary claim. A WCG member stood up during Table Topics at Spokesman Club and ranted that there never was a Holocaust - that it was all faked by the Jews. The club director whitewashed his statement a little and we all went on. I later discovered that this WCG church member, who seemed so normal and friendly otherwise, was a blazing anti-Semite. While his personal views were remarkable, what was really appalling was his blatant denial of recent, documented history. And I felt like I was at an insane asylum on visitor's day.
We cannot leave history to be written by the biased. I will not claim that any history is without taint of bias but there are those will zealously rationalize away what we all know to be bad.
True Byker. Further still, the COGs adore HWA. Ministers in the supposed more balanced groups (COGWA and UCG) believe that if HWA were still around they would all follow him. I've heard this directly spoken from the ministry. I've heard Jim Franks and others talk about our Christian heritage going thru HWA and how it is important to learn more about the life of HWA (believed to be sterling no doubt). HWA is still very much alive.
Some in the COGs will claim that they don't care about HWA, but their beliefs demand caring about him. Without him the elitist nature of the COGs cannot hold. HWA claimed his specialness and that of the WCG (and thus the COGs) thru his word of prophesy about the coming Tribulation and his understanding of the Plan of God including the "government of god". With bombast, He compelled people to believe that he was a special instrument. Then, he (perceived as a mighty instrument) was able to tell people all sorts of things as if infallible. Others could not understand these truths which moves you into the cult realm (sorry, but what else would you call it). These "truths" he revealed were unknown to many of the apostles as much was based on Revelation which was written after most had died. Why so important? As taught, the Millenium will only affect people from a single generation or two that pass into the Millenium. None of us are getting younger. The dead in Christ are apparently not that many according to COG theology (maybe some from the Old Testament, some 1st century, some tiny thread of "real" Christians that pass thru the Waldensians who would disagree strongly with Armstrongism, and finally up to 100,000 that followed Armstrongism). Is this the Gospel? Is this the hope? The hope of the Gospel of Christ is that for most that encountered Jesus and Christianity, you will only have a chance "some day"? That is the living water Christ provides?? someday... The good news is that one day you will have the chance to follow Me (Christ)? Jesus wasn't pouring living water to those that He encountered? COGs believe He wasn't growing His Kingdom at that time as our Lord?? Apparently, the COGs believe it is all someday for almost all that even profess Christ... The COGs deny the changed lives of the millions/billions that have claimed Christ as their Savior? Why would they deny that good news?
Armstrongism still must be shown as a false teaching and the corruption, elitism, presumption, unsupported dogma, and hurt should continue to be exposed to reveal the bad fruit so others are not deceived and hopefully still others in the COGs recognize the many errors.
7.19 AM
There is nothing stopping you from keeping the holy days at home. They are commanded convocations, but one can fellowship with Christ and God the Father at home, hence fulfilling this legal requirement. So called restored truths and other theology has no or little baring on everyday life. It's living by the ten commandments and growing as a person that really counts. The ACOGs trivialise this and instead endlessly harp on their forgotten/restored "truths" and prophesy.
Ellen G. White died 104 years ago, and yet her "hangover" on to the Seventh Day Adventist Church, lasts to this day, including some very odd practices , like not drinking coffee, or wearing of wedding bands , or even riding a bike (as it might cause you to want to "masturbate").
Likewise, William Miller and the story of the "Great Disappointment" of 1844. Adventists still twist the event from being an outright Failure, into the beginning of the "investigative judgement" with Jesus entering the Holy of Holies in Heaven on that day in 1844, redeeming it as a successful , yet misinterpreted prophecy of the time.
History is always worth studying. The technology and era may change, but the human nature is timeless. It appears to me that frauds, pretenders, narcissists et. al, will continue to fill a sick human need for such amongst the innocent and naive. For the sake of disclosure and duty, such things must be explored and published.
The COG 7th Day is a good spot for me, and a group I admire for standing up against both Armstrongs and Ellen G. White. If the internet had existed in the day, I never would have touched either of the Armstrongs with a 10 foot pole.
"They are commanded convocations,"
Really? Commanded by whom and for whom?
Before you get me wrong I believe 100% in keeping the holy days, but if you want to prove them you've got to quit using false statements as the one above.
The holy days were commanded convocations for Israel under the old Mt. Sinai covenant. That is the biblical truth.
Now if you choose to believe that God had laws from the garden which are applicable today, as I do, and you choose to believe that the commanded convocation stems from that, as I do, fine. But to not acknowledge that is being dishonest with the bible.
km
I do believe that amongst the surviving splinters , that the UCG tries to distance itself the most from HWA for the most part, without being downright hostile to him either for the sake of the old time tithe payers. HIs name is not mentioned in its publications or broadcasts. His picture was quietly and discretely replaced in the Council Chambers at the HQ when they did a remodel a few years ago. Aaron Dean though uniquely seems to still be very attached to HWA though.
COGWA seems to pay homage to the history of the WCG, and wants to recreate the whole AC campus , HQ thing. However, it barely is able to pay for its overstaffed ministry, and its dream of creating a new "white elephant" central power plant seems to be a pipe dream.
Pack, Thiel, Flurry are hell bent on trying to convince anyone that they are the "rightful heirs" of the HWA Elijah Mantle, a diminishing crown that is tarnishing badly.
"It's living by the ten commandments "
The same applies to the Ten Commandments, they are the words of the old Mt. Sinai covenant.
Exo 34:28 - ... And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
km
Anon 3:30,
I appreciate your optimism. You said you are meeting with the COGs because they are trying to follow the Bible. Do you think Baptists or other Evangelicals are not trying? They believe the Bible does not teach the sabbath after Christ's resurrection and there is a good argument for this belief. Nevertheless they have maintained the other 9 commandments as well as the COGs and probably better. Nevertheless, they have practiced charity and the Commands of Jesus substantially better than the COGs have. I do not see the COGs as the commandment keepers they claim as they deny clear commands of Christ (e.g. judge not...condemn not... the old arguments we used here are not supportable-- we are indeed judging other "people" and their conversion).
"When a COG starts doing good things for the community and no longer collects tithes but instead gives to the poor", I will certainly view them differently.
Still relevant, but, the good news is that none of the splinter groups is nearly as effective as HWA was. Today's C of G leaders are a shadow of what HWA was (thankfully). But, as with other deceptive church leaders, we can all learn from their deceptive ways. I visited the site of A.A. Allen's Miracle Crusade camp/campus near Ft. Huachuca when I was stationed there in the Army. There is nothing left but a few empty buildings and his grave. They come. . . they die, the organizations oftentimes die with them. But their influence continues, oftentimes under the leadership of others, on a much smaller scale.
Surely, everybody remembers way back when on playgrounds across America, kids were doing a little pointing, an little reciting, and a little dance that went something like, "Milk, milk, lemonade, round the corner (rotating butt), Chocolate's made!". And, there you have it, folks. The significance of Armstrongism.
BB
Whether HWA is relevant does not matter. What does matter is he was used by God to restore Gods truth to this sick world. It is up to those that believe it as to what they will do with it.
6:53 just demonstrated why this stuff is still relevant. One of the biggest lies peddled to unsuspecting cog people is that HWA "restored truths" that no one else had taught for centuries. The truth is that HWA didn't restore anything. He simply took ideas and teachings from others, presented them as his own, and cleverly marketed them. Unfortunately, even people who have done research and uncovered some of this stuff try to white wash it and make it look innocent.
If you want to know where his British Israel information came from, read J.H. Allen. If you want to know where the holy days came from, read G.G. Rupert. How about the idea that salvation is offered to all mankind and judgement would last for a hundred year period? Look into Charles Taze Russell and George Storrs. That those who reject Christ are simply killed rather than tortured forever? Again, George Storrs is your man. The teachings on "born again" were taught in not only some Church of God 7th Day circles, but also others connected to the earlier Millerite and Adventist movement of the 1800's including Charles Taze Russell. If you want to know where some of the lyrics to the hymns we are all familiar with came from, take a look at the the Scottish Psalter and other sources as outlined on this site...http://www.cgmusic.org/cghymnal/dwight.htm
All of these teachings as well as others were indeed previously taught and written about in the 1800's and early 1900's by other men. Anyone with access to a library with a religious section at that time would have no doubt come into contact with this material, and you can as well. All you have to do is a little google searching. That, my friends, is the only way you will find this stuff though, because HWA did not give credit to those he got his ideas from. You won't find a bibliography in the back of The United States and Britain in Prophecy, or even a note telling you where he "borrowed" information from Allen. You have to look it up yourself.
Some might call this plagiarism. Others might use a stronger word, such as stealing. I have no problem with someone teaching something that others have previously taught. We all learn from somewhere. But to present material as your own original idea, untaught for centuries in order to convince thousands of people that you are a prophet or Apostle is simply a lie, and we should all take issue with that.
Concerned Sister
Tonto at 9:55 AM said...
“I do believe that amongst the surviving splinters , that the UCG tries to distance itself the most from HWA for the most part, without being downright hostile to him either for the sake of the old time tithe payers. HIs name is not mentioned in its publications or broadcasts. His picture was quietly and discretely replaced in the Council Chambers at the HQ when they did a remodel a few years ago.”
“COGWA seems to pay homage to the history of the WCG, and wants to recreate the whole AC campus , HQ thing.”
The UCG from its start in 1995 took some of HWA's teachings and ran with them without ever mentioning HWA's name. This basically gave That (False) Prophet Gerald Flurry the exclusive use of HWA's name and photograph to attract HWA's former followers from the WCG.
There is, however, one piece of UCG literature that mentions a “Herbert Armstrong.” The UCG booklet called The United States and Britain in Bible Prophecy has a small sidebar in it called “Advocates of British-Israelism,” which lists about ten people who taught it, including a “Herbert Armstrong.” All it says about him is, “Herbert Armstrong (1892-1986), founder and chancellor of Ambassador University, wrote The United States and British Commonwealth in Prophecy, published in several editions until 1986.”
COGWA, which split off from the UCG around 2010, in its booklet called Where Is The Church Jesus Built?, has several paragraphs about “Herbert W. Armstrong” and his “Worldwide Church of God,” which conclude by saying, “As a continuation of the Church founded by Jesus in A.D. 31, the Church of God, a Worldwide Association, publisher of this booklet, traces its roots and history through Herbert W. Armstrong and the many other faithful Christians throughout the centuries.”
Jim
I would challenge you to go to any Sunday keeping group and argue against the trinity. I believe you be branded a heretic and told to leave. I have challenged many people openly and including many elders and paid ministers in COGs over the years. I have even convinced some that HWA as wrong about some things.
No Sunday keeping church will change because by default there is nothing to change for them. No one has sin any more.
So I see far more hope of repentance in the COGs in the future. Or at least its possible. But Sunday keeping churches teach Jesus died for your sins so you don't have to repent.
And for all those that say the law is old covenant how many times did Jesus quote the new testament? There is no Jesus without the old testament.
Acts 8:35 NASB — Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture he preached Jesus to him.
Jesus is preached from the old testament in the new testament. There is only one bible for the early church and they all used it.
It is a lie that the new testament church did away with preaching from the law and the prophets. It was the very proof of Jesus. It is the most important writings in the history of man.
Prophecies about Jesus are 100% all from the old testament.
No new testament scripture stands I its own to prove Jesus is the son of God. You must have the old testament for that.
So if you deny the law and the prophets you deny Jesus is the son of God because they are the only proof of who Jesus is.
km
Both Paul and Christ are recorded as attending a holy day convocation, plus God honors the holy days by Christ dying the day prior passover, and returning to rule on the day of trumpets. When the rich young man asked Christ how to inherit eternal life, he mentioned several of the ten commandments.
So yeah, the holy days and ten commandments are still in force.
6.53 PM
If all HWA did was restore some of Gods truth, this blog wouldn't exist. The bible instructs to not add or subtract from Gods way. HWA did this big time, the most notable being the sin of the Nicolaitans, ie dominating others. In HWA church culture, the ministers own members lives. Your comment and similar, is deception through omission.
Concerned Sister.
Your comment begs the question in what respect Jesus was "original" in any way.
Did he "steal" ideas, should he have attributed resurection narratives to previous religions, the buddhists that for sure would have passed the trade routes passing nazareth, the mithraists, egyptian mysteries etc etc etc.
As the the good book says, "what is new under the sun."
nck
12:59am You really need to learn to read rather than assuming you know what I'm saying.
I agree that the holy days are to be kept today, but not because Lev. 23 commands them. God placed the sun and moon in the sky to determine his appointment times, or holy days. That's why we keep them, not because Lev. 23 "enforce" them.
The same goes for the Sabbath, we don't keep the Sabbath because of the fourth commandment. We keep it because it was made for man and it was made in the garden.
You can argue with me all that you want but the bible says the Ten Commandments are the words of the covenant and the context of that verse is the old Mt. Sinai covenant. Meaning if you keep the Sabbath because the fourth commandment then you're declaring that you're under that covenant.
As far as the "rich young man" goes, he was under the old covenant, so of course Jesus told him to keep the words of the covenant.
It's sad how many people don't understand why they do what they do. I blame the WCG and the unbiblical clergy class for barely teaching the bible and why we should keep the Sabbath and holy days.
For your information I just kept my 53rd feast of tabernacles and no, I didn't keep it according to Lev. 23 and if you also kept this last feast you didn't follow Lev. 23 rules either.
Instead of arguing maybe you should be meditating on why you really keep God's Sabbath and Feast Days. I've been keeping them for 53 years and not because of Ex. 20 or Lev. 23
km
12:59am Also, if you want to know what I believe about God's law you can check out my post at:
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=226103369043606765&postID=8671385752524484244
At this date and time:
November 1, 2019 at 2:55 AM
km
12:59 By the way, Christ died the day of the Passover not the day prior.
km
12:04 12:59,
Pointing to Christ keeping the Law is not any sort of evidence as He had to keep the Law perfectly to be the Messiah. He also spoke and attended in the Jewish synagogues; does this then show we should attend in Jewish synagogues? He was a Jew and His practices were those of a Jew. His death had to follow the Old Testament prophesies for the Messiah, so, it would be in accord with the Law, Deut. 21, recall that Joseph of Aramathea had to ask for Christ's body as this was part of the Law. But, Christ had not yet proven His Messiahship at this time. Christians fully recognize this and also the change in the administration of the Law. It is now in our hearts, He told us He was our Rest right before He was accused of Sabbath breaking.
Paul mentions wanting to be at Pentecost but we don't know his reasoning. As has been said before, he had not even been to Jerusalem for two previous years and did not mention that anyone else should attend with him at this Pentecost. It is very likely he wanted to teach of Christ there and as some have also said to pacify some Christian Judaizers.
What is remarkable is that the sabbath in the NT is scarcely mentioned outside of the gospels; I believe that if it was in effect you would hear about how the gentiles had a difficult time learning to do it properly or being admonished for not doing it properly, but it is not there after having been such a strong teaching (death penalty) in the OT and Gospels.
I suspect you might have convinced some ministers that HWA was wrong about some of his early prophecies (1972) and perhaps came down too strongly on make-up (Lake of Fire). I doubt it was regarding teachings that the ministry felt they could defend (admittedly my assumption). The Trinity has been too highly viewed as unassailable in Christian churches but it is primarily because they believe you are trying to deny the divinity of Christ. And if you denied the divinity of Christ in the COGs you would receive the same reaction, but probably not as strongly due to the COGs ever diminishing the words of Christ (more so now than in WCG even). If you condemned the actions of HWA in a COG you would be shunned or removed. If you sincerely questioned the Sabbath in the COGs you would be shunned. If you sincerely questioned the firstfruits only being members of the COGs you would be shunned. I can have open conversations with devout Sunday keepers that I could never have with COG members and not be shunned or condemned.
It is completely untrue that Sunday keeping Christians don't believe in repentance. It is recognized as vital. I'm not sure where you would get that.
Do you attend with a Biblically based congregation for a Sunday service on occasion?
It is assinine to believe that God would reveal truths to be restored to a man during the specific time during which that man was inflicting incest upon his daughter. This is why HWA's interpretation of and timeline for the prophecies have failed, it is why there was cruel my way or the highway church governance, and it is why the Armstrong movement largely finds itself spewed from the mouth of God and accomplishing nothing today. Armstrongism was a deceptively marketed crock of you know what from the very beginning.
BB
12:11,
That is such an overstatement. How does one deny the law and the prophets? The Law was a tutor that brings to Christ. The Prophets included the standards for Christ as Messiah. Are you still going to the Prophets in search of the Messiah or have you found Him? Are you still performing the Law to please God such as sacrifices which were taught in the Law but not explicitly done away with. Do you reside in booths during Tabernacles? Do you demand women leave their families monthly? All these teachings had meaning: Propitiation, God's faithfulness/providence (strangers in a strange land), and holiness/cleanliness, respectively. But, not practiced today. Is this a denial of Christ by your statement as you are denying these elements of the law?
The COGs consistently grabbed on to mainstream Christian statements and created strawmen out of them to ridicule. But, seldom if ever have they given them an honest rendering. I don't mean to offend, yet it seems you are doing the same.
Concerned Sister:
Touché
-- Neo
NEO, 12:59's comment was not mine so please correct your 8:23am post.
km
Jim, while I realize that we can't make generalizations about what others believe, I believe that 12:04's comment is partially correct.
As far as I know protestants only believe that they have to repent once unless of course they backslide. They don't believe that repentance is a continuous process, at least that's the basic teaching as I understand it. That Christ covers past and future sins without the need to repent for every sin.
While I don't think we're doomed to hell if we neglect to repent for a specific sin, I do however believe that we should be in a constant state of reprntance, acknowledging that without Christ we are sinners. 1 John makes it clear that if we sin we are to go to our advocate, Jesus Christ, and confess our sins. That should be an on going process for the Christian.
I don't however agree with HWA and the WCG's teaching that we should worry about whether or not we have remembered to repent for every little sin.
km
"It is assinine to believe that God would reveal truths to be restored to a man during the specific time during which that man was inflicting incest upon his daughter."
BB, I agree 100%. Which is why I concluded long ago that the truth of the Sabbath and Feasts, (two of the the major things that distinguished us from mainstream) which were taught long before Armstrong by men like G.G. Rupert, were hijacked and corrupted by HWA.
km
nck,
Your logic is surely better than that. Did these prior religions state that Jesus was the Messiah? A resurrection is not the issue, but Jesus Himself coming from the line of Judah and dying for the world to save the world from the penalty of sin is not a previous teaching to my knowledge. Seeing the lifecycle of a butterfly is a resurrection of sorts and closer to that of most prior religions than is Christ's sacrifice and resurrection.
KM,
You make good points. And though I have said before that I don't see evidence of man keeping the Sabbath pre-Sinai, I did take to mind your comments on that. I also recognized that Moses is the author of the Pentateuch so perhaps when he wrote that the moon was for setting of times and seasons he was stating this because for his time that is indeed true, but he does not say they were used for that purpose at creation or before Sinai. Just an observation. Even when the Creator designated the Sabbath He did not state Adam and Eve should observe it. With as important as it seems to be for some it just seems unlikely there is no evidence of humans observing it before Sinai when it became a very big deal.
KM,
Certainly Protestants think of repentance differently than the COGs. But, I hear protestants talking about asking for forgiveness of God. Definitely, they believe they are to be lead by Christ now and that their repentance during the time of their conversion is the primary repentance as it means to turn away from sin. They have gotten on a new path that is arguably repentance, but they regularly speak about doing wrong in certain actions or whether they are making the decision the Lord is guiding them in. They certainly don't go around stealing, committing adultery, lying, murdering at a rate higher than those in the COGs. They know these are wrong and they turn away from such behavior...generally. That is repentance and they ask God for forgiveness.
Like you say, it is different than the COGs, but to be of the mindset that you are being led by the Spirit and not by sin/death is to take on a path away from sin/death and that is a lifepath of repentance. And, in my experience have resulted in their talking about forgiveness and repentance in the present.
The Catholics are required to confess and have their sins absolved regularly. This indicates a need for repentance and the Protestants still think similarly but do not need a priest to guide them.
KM,
I appreciate most of your comments as there is a clarity to your assertions and beliefs. For many years I have seen many of these things as well. Some seem to just hate everything, while others are 'hanging on' to understandings of old, instead of accepting there is now a NEW covenant as introduced by Jesus. For instance many still claim to be observing the OT Passover, but it's just that the emblems severe changed same thing with the festivals ---- people seem to never consider why they are observing them other than Levitcus, and Deuteronomy, etc. where it was specific as to why Israel was to observe them under that covenant.
km 5.32 AM
So you've been keeping the holy days for 53 yesrs, but can't stop insuilting and attacking others in your posts. You are the one who needs to do a lot of self examination. Ponder whether you are a religious hobbyist who doesn't do what the bible instructs, ie, a hearer of the word only.
I see you have bought into the protestant "we obey God because we want to rather than have to" mumbo jumbo. It smells of a spoilt brat who doesn't want daddy telling him what to do.
Anonymous 12:59
You statement is an example of Genetic Fallacy (q.v., Wikipedia). Let me construct an example for you:
After Christ was born, Mary underwent a "time of purification", therefore, Armstrongist women must do this also in order to be compliant with the word of God.
Because something happened and was recorded in the Bible, this does not credential that event as a requirement for all time. Ad hoc events do not rise to the level of coherent doctrine. The Genetic Fallacy is often combined with a fault of Selectivity. I am reminded of a photo I saw of people who use snakes in worship in the Appalachians. The photo showed a group of men dancing around with snakes in their hands at church. The caption said that none were wearing ties because "Jesus and the Apostles" did not wear ties. But they were all wearing overalls. They just selected to apply the principle to what they wanted.
The magnified spirit of the 10 commandments was affirmed in the New Testament. Commandment four was transformed. I have a feeling when you write 10 commandments you are referring to the words as delivered by Moses within the context of the Old Covenant. Mount Sinai was abrogated by the Mount of Olives. This is stated explicitly in the New Testament.
Love how Concerned Sister OBLITERATED Kevin's bad theology.
I don't know Jim.
Why do you emphasize the Judah king line? Because every previous religion predating christ emphasized the king as deliver of his people under the mandate of heaven?
Nck
1:18pm How so? Where did Concerned Sister even comment on one of my posts?
km
Thanks NEO. 😊
km
12:10pm - ignored!
km
Just how does believing that God's law has been commanded since the garden equate to "we obey because we want to not because we have to"?
km
10:54 feel free to email me.
Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com
km
Herbert Armstrong has been dead 33 years Concerned Sister. So how are we in 2019 supposed to take issue with the past? Herbert was never perceived as an Apostle by many early WCG members. He became an Apostle in the 1970s but not everyone signed up to his apostleship.
Why does it all concern you concerned Sister?
"I also recognized that Moses is the author of the Pentateuch so perhaps when he wrote that the moon was for setting of times and seasons he was stating this because for his time that is indeed true, but he does not say they were used for that purpose at creation or before Sinai."
Jim, again I want to emphasize that I respect your understanding. One thing I'd like to point out. In your comment you point out the fact that Moses wrote the five books, and wondered if perhaps he wrote Gen. 1:14 as he did simply for the benefit of future readers and not as a statement that the moed were from the beginning. I can respect that.
On the other hand, seeing that Moses wrote the Pentateuch, which included all of God's laws, which were added because of transgressions, and the book of Genesis was merely an historical account of creation and the first two thousand years until Moses and not meant to list all the laws given by God at creation, why then must we demand something that wasn't the intent?
Abraham knew of God's laws, statutes, judgements, etc. Gen. 26:5. How? How did kings know adultery was a sin? It wasn't written anywhere that we know of. Why was Sodom and Gomorrah destroyed? The bible says they were evil but nowhere is anything spelled out in the first six chapters of Genesis telling them what God expected of them. Are we to assume that God didn't tell them?
IMO the reason the Sabbath isn't mentioned in Genesis is because that wasn't the reason Genesis was written. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, it was made in the garden, not a couple months before Sinai when the manna fell.
Again, I understand and respect your reasoning.
km
Re whether the Sabbath or feasts or other laws as given to Moses were known and kept by believers pre-Sinai I believe such divine commands could have been handed down orally. But, which were kept pre-Sinai and which are to be kept post-Calvary is debatable.
km 2.09 PM
You said the we should keep the sabbath because it was made for man rather than because it's commanded. You made a similar comment about the holy days.
Protestant literature is saturated with "we obey God because we want to, rather than have to," which explains your line of reasoning.
BTW, God expects His laws to be obeyed because He says so, not exclusively because his laws are good for us. A Christian is one who follows Christ, remember?
Some thoughts on the Old and New Covenants:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2019/11/the-two-covenants.html
9:14 "re Christian one who follows christ".
I thought Abraham and Noah were men of God thousands of years before Moses.
And they had not seen faith as the Centurion displayed.
Anyway my favorite movie line from "Coming to America". "If loving the lord is wrong... I don't wanna be right."
Nck
My comment was in reference to the anonymous comment at 6:53. It was not directed to anyone else's post.
2:56... The past has a direct effect on the present. My family has ties to the WCG going back to the early 60's, so I am not unfamiliar with the history. Herman Hoeh was actually credited with first referring to Herbert Armstrong as an apostle, I believe around about 1951, supposedly in a message at a Feast of Tabernacles. Some however, have tried to point to a ministerial certificate issued to HWA by the Church of God 7th Day in the early 30s as "proof" of his apostleship. I grew up in the church of the 70s and 80s and was quite familiar with him being referred to as "God's Apostle" both by himself and others.
It matters because there are still thousands of people in various cog groups who think of him in this way. In most cog "headquarters" buildings, both large and small, you will still find a portrait of HWA prominently displayed. Many of these people think of him as not only the founder and leader of the "Philadelphian" era, but also as "God's end time apostle", who restored the "truth" to God's church. Listen to a few of their sermons on line, and you will still hear his name mentioned regularly by the ministry, in most if not all of the cog groups.
You can trace Plain Truth articles going back to the 1930's where "prophetic" dates were set and predictions were made, and then didn't come true. 1936 was supposed to be the end of the age, and Mussolini was going to fight Christ in the early 40's. In the 50's Hitler wasn't really dead, etc. My children look this stuff up and roll their eyes whenever they hear a minister start talking about prophecy.
It concerns me because I have a responsibility to the generation that comes after me to be objective and truthful about the history of the church I grew up in, and have raised them in. If I am not willing to honestly look at the mistakes and errors that have been made in the past that have had a direct effect on the lives of my family, then it is me who will lose credibility in their eyes. If I try to hide, white wash, or sugar coat the facts, I am the one who becomes a hypocrite. Sooner or later they will find out the facts anyway. They are readily available with a few clicks of a mouse or the swipe of a finger. If I can't defend my beliefs to them honestly, then all the "warning" messages and talk about "truth" in the world will not persuade them of my point of view. If I dismiss their questions and refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy and dishonesty of the those who claim to be shepherds, that makes me no better than they are. And if I still believe there is a God in heaven that I answer to, then that is ultimately why it matters.
There is a saying that those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. It is time we start learning.
Concerned Sister
12:10pm If you have a problem with me then either email me: Kevinmcmillen64@gmail.com or call me: 304-376-1727
km
9:14,
Isn’t that the point? Isn’t it better when we obey God because we want to? I’d call that the conversion of the heart.
You consistently say God expects us to keep the Sinai law, then you keep saying it without addressing the fact you are not keeping it and if you are guilty in breaking one part of the law you are guilty in breaking all of it. Are you continually asking for forgiveness for willfully not living in a booth during Tabernacles? Show me where God explicitly did away with sacrifices. I’m comfortable with Christ being all the sacrifice necessary, but it never said to simply stop with the sacrifices which is part of the Law. Again, Christ gave several commands the COGs don’t follow or try to explain away. Which laws and commandments do you choose to keep and which do you ignore? I sincerely ask this.
9:14pm You're not understanding what I'm saying.
I don't believe that we are to obey God merely "because we want to" I believe we obey God because he is our creator and our lawgiver. I believe he gave all his laws at creation. We don't have any records of this because, other than the little that we have written in stone, all documents prior to the second and third century a.d. no longer exist.
We obey God because we are commanded. How much easier can I explain it? But the fact is the commands as presented in the Mt. Sinai covenant were to Israel as a nation and to claim that everyone else has to obey them needs an indepth explanation which the WCG and the acogs rarely if ever give.
The Sinai covenant was given because Israel as a nation in slavery forgot God and his laws. Abraham knew God and his laws (Gen. 26:5), he taught his kids. But after 400 years of slavery they forgot God's laws and were transgressing them because of that ignorance.
At Sinai, as Paul makes clear in Gal. 3, God made an additional covenant because they were transgressing his laws, and he made law keeping a condition of that covenant. Law keeping was never a condition of the Promise covenant because Abraham had already obeyed God.
So yes, we can look at the laws in the Mt. Sinai covenant to see how and if they apply to our lives today, but we are not under that covenant.
I've asked before, why would God add laws that weren't being transgressed? I don't think he would. Every law given was a law in existence prior to Sinai with few exceptions. The exceptions would logically be the laws that single Israel out from the rest of the world. Like not mixing fabric or mixing seed. This was to keep Israel from getting too caught up in the paganism of the world.
Laws concerning the sacrificial system, such as the priesthood, offerings, etc. were also among the exceptions.
In an intellectual conversation about the bible we can't claim to keep the Sabbath because of the fourth commandment nor can we claim to keep the feasts because of Lev. 23 because those laws are specifically for the children of Israel.
But we can say that we believe those laws were in existence in some form from the garden, though not necessarily exactly as prescribed in the old Mt. Sinai covenant. Unless of course you want to build sukkot out of four types of branches, because if you don't you're disobeying the command.
Sorry for any spelling mistakes, this is too long and I'm too lazy to proofread.
Kevin McMillen
"km 2.09 PM
You said the we should keep the sabbath because it was made for man rather than because it's commanded."
I said it that way for a reason. That is the only biblical evidence that we have for keeping the Sabbath. The fourth commandment was written for Israel. Just read it in your bible. It says specifically to "speak to the children of Israel".
I believe that God's laws and commands were all given at creation and that's why we're to obey them, but that's not biblical, meaning it can't be proven from the bible without using logic and common sense.
Jesus' precise statement about who the Sabbath was made for is the clearest biblical explanation for why we keep it. If you want to view that as "we keep it because we want to" then that's your prerogative, but you're completely misrepresenting what I'm clearly saying.
I choose to understand why I obey, and that's how I teach others why they should obey. Emotional explanations won't cut it for those seeking facts.
There is no clear cut command in the bible for gentiles to keep the Sabbath or feasts, common sense and logic, which God created in us must be used. Many will disagree but that's not my problem.
km
"Anonymous jim said...
9:14,
Isn’t that the point? Isn’t it better when we obey God because we want to?"
But, but, but Jim, didn't God once say of Israel "Oh, that they would just obey me"?
Oh wait, no, it was "Oh, that they had the HEART to obey me".
Spot on Jim.
km
km
12.10 PM here. My problem with you is not your beliefs, but your insults and attacks. Others have made this point before. Contact you by phone or email? No, no, no. That's the responsibility of those closest to you.
12:10 Perfectly said! His insults are like something a 3rd grader usees to bully people. Instead of acting like a marue3 Christian he insults and bullies people. Don't waste your time on a phone call,
9:09 and 10:11 are most likely the same person, he's also probably the only one that km has ever had to disrespect on the blog. Why? Because he's an instigator! He's upset that km isn't afraid to call him on his garbage.
At least km doesn't post anonymously.
Bill
November 2, 2019 at 9:09 AM
It looks like your the one making the insults and attacks. What your doing is what bullies do. km's response to you every time you bring this up is exactly how people stand up to bullies like yourself. I'm glad to see that km is finally ignoring you.
Carol
Stop this crap right now! You have not seen the many, many postings that I have not let through because of his remarks and personal attacks against me and others here. There are scores of them sitting in a spam folder right now and others deleted. Defend him all you want, I don't care, nor do I care what he calls me all the time. If he doesn't like me, this blog or others here he can stop posting.
Observance of the classic core doctrines of Armstrongism makes people be like that to one degree or another. It's really quite a shame. And when the doctrines are combined with a bipolar condition or small man's complex (both of which cause people to be drawn to Armstrongism), it can become even more extreme. I've known some to develop a martyr's complex, and even attempt to bait or provoke
violent retaliation against themselves.
It's like the old joke, in which the masochist yells to the sadist "Hit me!" The sadist replies with a grin, "Nnooo!"
BB
This is hilarious. I'm being harped upon for saying this:
"12:59am You really need to learn to read rather than assuming you know what I'm saying."
Why did I say this? If one goes back to my very first post at 9:55am and reads where I wrote:
"Before you get me wrong I believe 100% in keeping the holy days,"
Then go to 12:59's comment which says:
"km
Both Paul and Christ are recorded as attending a holy day convocation, plus God honors the holy days by Christ dying the day prior passover, and returning to rule on the day of trumpets. When the rich young man asked Christ how to inherit eternal life, he mentioned several of the ten commandments.
So yeah, the holy days and ten commandments are still in force."
12:59 is trying to correct me by stating that the holy days are still in force after I clearly said that I believe 100% in keeping the holy days.
Amazing. I'm the bad guy for pointing out 12:59's inability to properly read.
Will this get posted?
Time will tell!
km
I totally disagree with you Concerned Sister.
You need to free yourself from this line of thinking and worship God in spirit and truth. You seem to be choked by the past.
Herbert is dead and awaits the resurrection. He will face God like we all will. Herbert belonged to a different age now dead.
You need to be connected to the true Vine not anguished in the past.
You assume much and give no freedom to the richness of others experiences. You see the past and others future through your own narrow prisim.
You need to broaden your hotizons and thought. Herbert is dead.
"You need to free yourself from this line of thinking and worship God in spirit and truth."
You had better be careful or you'll get labeled as a meanie!
It's not politically correct on this blog to point out others mistakes. Although the powers that be can do it any time they want.
Dennis,
your October 31, 2019 at 3:33 AM post was helpful and encouraging to me. I used to look forward to reading posts like this, when I was trying to comprehend some of these old events.
Glad you posted this; I don't see as many of posts from you lately. Always good to see you're doing well. Take care
Here's something I found hilarious yet terrifying. It may only serve to detract, in fact.
www.washingtonexaminer[dot]com/washington-secrets/revealed-trump-wanted-to-build-a-mega-church
Well byker, if you consider 7.5x5.5 small man complex then I guess you nailed it.
Thanks, No2 for stopping the silliness of these men. I feel like I am in my Jr. High surrounded by the class bullies.
4.36 PM
I've heard your line often. The implication of your post that the passage of time is a get out of jail free card, is not true. Herb has permanently harmed members in many ways. Reading literature on people who have grown up in toxic homes explains this in detail. "Herbert belonged to a different age," but the moral laws that he broke are timeless. And being connected to the true Vine does not remove the natural consequences of sin.
White washing evil leaders and blaming their victims in not a virture.
What is your real agenda 11:12 ?
Why complain on here about one man? Why is it always Herbert and never Garner ted ? Or anyone else?
You again assume much. Who is white washing anyone? That is a strawman argument.
Why do you have no belief in justice from God ? Do you think its your duty to write all the wrongs?
Herbert is still dead and waiting judgment.
Well, 8:37, I just hope you're not the one who sends Gary pictures. Any comment on BB's suggestion of a bipolar condition? Intellectuals are usually concerned more with the condition of their minds rather than their bodies. The mind controls what you are able to accomplish with your body.
Does anyone know of any cog blogs that are fairly active but require that everyone post an acronym to identify themselves and require them to stick with that acronym? This anonymous stuff is silly, anyone can post anything and hide behind anonymity.
Carol
8:30 I've never sent Gary any pictures. And you know that you're the one who brought up small man complex byker, not I.
Don't make no nevermind, nowhow. You can't really be a intellectual and be a Armstrongite. Gotta fake some evidence, lift stuff out of context, and reject all the evidence against. Like Herman Heoh.
Carol 9:32 AM you sound like a guy we all know on here who also had an issue with anonymous posts, but we told him to get over it and I suggest you do too. You have the freedom to post anonymously, use an alias, or create a Google account if you want to track your own comments. Choose one and let others have the freedom to choose what suits them too. If
Anonymous 11/1/19 12:59 AM
Re the rich young man I'd like to share a couple of observations I’ve seen fleshed out elsewhere:
The rich young man refers to Jesus as “good” and asks Him “what do I have to do to inherit eternal life?” Already he’s started off on the wrong foot focusing on personal performance. Note how Christ responds with great wisdom. He corrects him saying why do you call me good only God is good. And then He tells him you know the commandments don’t lie, don’t steal etc. Then the rich man immediately says I’ve kept all these since I was a boy.
So what’s his sin that’s already been highlighted in this conversation thus far? Christ has just said, “Only God is good!” And a couple of seconds later the rich young man claims, “Me too!” He gives himself the status and stature of God—the sin of self-righteousness and pure pride, which is a violation of the first commandment! So then Christ next tells him if you want to be “perfect” sell everything and give all the proceeds to the poor and follow Him. What did the rich man do? He walked away in despair! So in truth he isn’t good and can’t be good or perfect like God at all! In truth no one can!
So what’s the takeaway lesson for us today? That a performance based gospel of works for salvation like Armstrongism, Catholicism, prosperity theology, etc. will lead to either pride or despair. Either on the one hand you’ll feel like you've ticked all the boxes and are righteous before God based on your law-keeping and “good works” or on the other hand you’ll give up knowing you can’t measure up and will always keep failing one way or another. This has led to a lot of Christians losing faith and becoming atheists.
Yet, this is where the true gospel comes in and reveals that although we might not be good enough and never will be Jesus was good enough for us! He lived the perfect life we never could have lived and then died on the cross. He took our sins and suffered the wrath of God we deserved. He extinguished it and on the third day He rose from the dead and is now seated at the right hand of God. This is the defining doctrine of true Biblical Christianity ie justification by faith alone in Christ alone.
9:47pm Well said. We must also realize that the reason that we had to be justified by faith alone in Christ alone is because we have all sinned, we have all broken God's law.
We need to understand that law keeping doesn't earn us any brownie points with God, law keeping is the bare minimum that he expects of us.
An unprofitable servant is one who does the bare minimum.
km
Does anyone here think like the individual I personally know that follows these teachings of Herbert W Armstrong to a complete point that makes them so special here on earth they have the power to destroy lives and by keeping the Sabbath gives them privilege through God ! What's wrong with this thinking ? Anyone " Out There" know individuals like this ? Complete Madness ...
why does this person have all these old books of Herbert W Armstrong and even Ambassator College teaching courses saying dedicated to the late Herbert W Armstrong . " Wake-Up " !
Hiding behind a mask ... living 2 different lives . But when challenged will cover-up and hide that he spends endless hours indoctrating himself with Tapes Books Sermons blah blah blah . Total madness ...
Does anyone here think like the individual I personally know that follows these teachings of Herbert W Armstrong to a complete point that makes them so special here on earth they have the power to destroy lives and by keeping the Sabbath gives them privilege through God ! What's wrong with this thinking ? Anyone " Out There" know individuals like this ? Complete Madness ...
why does this person have all these old books of Herbert W Armstrong and even Ambassator College teaching courses saying dedicated to the late Herbert W Armstrong . " Wake-Up " !
Hiding behind a mask ... living 2 different lives . But when challenged will cover-up and hide that he spends endless hours indoctrating himself with Tapes Books Sermons blah blah blah . Total madness ...
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