"HOWEVER-- isn't our interest then in Thiel also a matter of US "not minding our own business"?? "
"Calling out the lies of Bob Thiel is not "meddling in his business" if Thiel was doing good for others instead of deliberately lying about his double blessings, dreams, and his self-appointment, then there would be no need to call him out. People's lives are at stake because of his lies...."
"Calling out the lies of Bob Thiel is not "meddling in his business" if Thiel was doing good for others instead of deliberately lying about his double blessings, dreams, and his self-appointment, then there would be no need to call him out. People's lives are at stake because of his lies...."
Anonymous
Posting: Mind Your Own Business
Knowing that Gary is up to his earlobes in preparation for the Rose Parade, I just wanted to wrap up my own year here on Banned with the above quote from the previous posting and reason why we all keep coming back here.
Some business needs to be minded as lives of loved ones and friend are at stake their continued association with the self appointed and grievously unqualified "God chose me" types that have climbed out of the wreckage of the WCG. Such teachings as "Fleeing" and "All things Common" are not minor or harmless teachings. On top of that, they are false teachings and an unnecessary burden in the lives of the sincere who are being mislead, either deliberately for gain or sincerely so out of the ignorance of their pastors.
We have watched men of no renown or theological education creep step by step into every imaginable Biblical title the Bible has to give. It is not through the hard work of a proper Biblical and Historical training, but through sheer ego and an addiction to prophecy and yet more of the same end time this time for sure focus. Without an emphasis prophecy, real or imagined, understood or misunderstood, the Churches of God would have no message. We kid about them not having read the NT, but sometimes you have to wonder.
They endeavor to grow their churches by being different than all others, which appeals to some who think all others have missed the boat. Leaving one sinking ship to get on another is not going to turn out well.
So as not to go long on this, simply put men like Dave Pack and Gerald Flurry are dangerous men in fake positions of theological authority. Bob Thiel is harmless, in my view, unless, believing in the "when we flee" concept, imagines himself the one to signal the exodus. Then he becomes just as dangerous. Pack and Flurry are dangerous NOW. LCG seems stuck between the Craziness of RCG and the desire to mellow of UCG trying to please all in attendance and probably pleasing none. They can't.
United Church of God, to me, seems WCG Lite. They try to not major in the minors of days gone by but they have taken in many for whom majoring in the minors is a mental and spiritual habit and it comes with all the associated conflict they experience. I also feel for a ministry stuck in a life choice that I know not too far beneath the surface they wonder how they ever let themselves get into this.
For myself all I can say is I was young, interested in all things Bible by birth into a Dutch Reformed Setting and it was the 60's after all. I am so grateful to myself for not going on to pastor in a splinter, as I was asked to do, and moved on to something that still fit my nature but without the drama and trauma of religion and role playing. It does become too late in life to become anything we finally realize that perhaps we should have been or could have been but gave it up to follow the One True Church not knowing that in reality there never has been any such thing for very long before the blow ups in doctrine and belief began. Each of course reserves the right to claim Trueness while others are the apostates from their point of view.
I figure if Angels aprostates fall, what hope do we mere human have? :)
So yes, the above anonymous quote is why most of us are here. We may pick at each other for beliefs expressed and a lesson learned here for me has been being a pastor in WCG invites all sorts of emotional venting, projection and labels. Ministrud, Dennis the Spiritual Menace, Apostate Former WCG minister (Bob Thiel's view) and in the Synagogue of Satan (Dave Pack's view I hear) are favorites. A well known but goofy apologist outside the WCG experience called me "The High Priest of Marduk". Has a nice ring to it. I'm actually a pretty sensitive to others type person. I went into both WCG as a teen and ministry in my 20's sincerely so thinking, as did most, that was what I was supposed to do and where I was supposed to be. 35 members of my family followed in and then out as I did. None are in any of the splinters for which I am grateful. All have moved on with their lives in divergent ways.
Some business needs to be minded and this is why we most are here caring and sharing. From John's of spoken ending of "Time will tell" , which it will to "Stop censoring me!", Banned is a good outlet to continue to process all our experiences. My hope is that as we all mature in even that, we will do so in a kind, loving and compassionate understanding that we all deserve to extend to each other divergent experiences notwithstanding.
I wish you all a Happy Pagan, Drunken, Orgy filled, Anti Biblical, God hates you for it, You'll change your tune in the Lake of Fire you totally apostate, fallen away, twice dead, over to Satan turned for the destruction of your flesh that we can at least salvage your spirit someday New Year.
Don't go far. There is still some business to be minded...
And no, it doesn't actually matter if a New Year begins as Winter turns to Spring or Spring to Summer. If the harvesting of crops is your signal, great! If the return of light taking away the darkness of Winter is yours, in my view, even greater!
(But that's just the Apostate Cosmologically and Astro-Theologically oriented and Axial Tilt is the Reason for the Season me again:)
And too:
Apologies and Handshakes to those known and anonymous I may have snarked back at along the way. That is not me nor my nature when it's all said and done. I don't see labeling and name calling as a positive purpose in life. Also, a respectful thanks to John of Time Will Tell out of respect for his age and experience. BB's insights and experiences have been a real help along the way here as well as well as Retired Prof , TLA and many others with Avatars or Anonymous. I envision quite an interesting gathering if we all ended up at the same table for a meal!
And too:
Apologies and Handshakes to those known and anonymous I may have snarked back at along the way. That is not me nor my nature when it's all said and done. I don't see labeling and name calling as a positive purpose in life. Also, a respectful thanks to John of Time Will Tell out of respect for his age and experience. BB's insights and experiences have been a real help along the way here as well as well as Retired Prof , TLA and many others with Avatars or Anonymous. I envision quite an interesting gathering if we all ended up at the same table for a meal!
20 comments:
The Painful Truth wishes Bob Thiel a blessed and profitable new year! We are going to go
out of our way and offer all wannabee
prophets a free gift.
There always has been and always will be a double standard regarding evaluation, criticism, and accountability within the Armstrong movement. Ministers and members feel free to perform these functions regularly on non-ACOG churches, each other's splinter groups, and former members thereof. But, in their minds, nobody is allowed this privilege as applied to their particular group, or their sainted "apostle", HWA. Allegedly, these are God's one and only true something or other, and are off limits, even when they are seriously wrong, misguided, or causing massive damage.
All the more reason for us to keep on truckin'. Somebody has to be their mirror, to do the very necessary job which they are not allowed to do themselves. Perhaps at some point, more of "them" will once again regenerate their own thinking skills. We must realize on their behalf that most of them actually believe that there is nothing wrong with their thinking skills, that these in fact have been modified by and are guided by God Himself, that they have arrived at and embrace the motherlode, the very well of truth. The problem is that they have stopped verifying and testing this. If ridiculous new truths and prophecies, and endless titles don't force them to reevaluate, we must continue to present a viable alternative. It is our moral and ethical duty as fellow human beings.
BB
ASB Comment: One thing I have noticed in this Blog is a change that can be attributed to the world news in the todays culture. In earlier years people were concerned about the variables in the beliefs regarding the factors God required for His chosen people to live. The prophecy factor was used to encourage people to change from the way of world to the way God required His people to live. The message that Christ came to prepare people for a life in the kingdom of God was used to support the fact that God required people to live His way. This is where things have become controversial. The message the Churches of God and all Christians should have is that Jesus Christ lived, died, and lived again to give man chance to live a life after this life in completed. If we reject that factor all other efforts to create a God given way of life is useless. ASB
In this posting there is a strong evidence that all ACOG's are damaging and dangerous for people who have a need for religion. It also indicates that the Christian faith is built on questionable sources. What I want to know is why there is nothing pointed out that there are Christian Churches that have ministers and members who are healthy dedicated Christian people in every community. If the belief is that all Christian Churches are man made and not God inspired the best we can do is pick a Church that has programs that fill the need for religion and the people are dedicated Christians that make you feel welcome. Of course it is good to choose a Church close to home where the people know each other. ASB
That business to be minded to is an awfully dirty business. But thankfully many who comment here are quite adept at using a pitchfork to clean up the obvious messes that are created daily.
You bring up a good question concerning if the COGs have no message without declared prophecy. HWA couldn't have done what he did without the "Ezekial warning" blaring across radio stations for many decades.
The message alone of a kingdom coming to cure all the world's ills has some weight to it if it is framed properly. Adding in the sweetener of the possibility of mankind becoming god him or herself certainly ramps up the attention of the prospective proselyte towards the presenter.
I think it has all gotten way more complicated than it ever needed to be. The ministers (leaders) training should involve being dropped into the wilderness with a large flock of sheep with the requirement to keep them all alive. I think that would solve the problem of having dreamers and tree planters and rock worshipers running the shows. The members should understand just who the shepherd really is and understand how to function within that relationship.
I know, way too boring and practical for many of the COG shows who view the sheep as something to fleece, plunder and kill. So on the periphery of boring and practical you have nothing but "danger" in many different ways.
So the contributors of Banned by HWA are the "voice crying out in the wilderness" of danger for a people in many ways who are being slaughtered before the Lord!
So as not to go long on this
...
Then he goes so too long on this and that and everything else oy vey!
Thanks Dennis - I have always enjoyed your insightful articles, along with the sharp pokes at the self-important who rule the COGs.
I was a victim of confirmation bias for over 50 years. I spent a good deal of time since 1995 reading various translations of the Bible and only absorbed what supported WCG beliefs.
A little over 1 year ago I started thinking and examining everything I read which is why I am now more in the agnostic camp and not attending any church.
If anyone is interested in learning more about scientific discoveries, this is an interesting free site: https://www.quantamagazine.org/
academia.edu has free research papers available for download once you register - a wealth of material on the Bible and archaeology.
TLA the problem is that you've gone from the frying pan into the fire. You haven't learned a thing!
Thanks TLA. Experience is not only the best teacher, it seems the only one that adds depth and meaning to the experience. Sounds like a familiar path. Seems strange to me now to have been caught up in a 2 to 3 thousand year old book written in the Middle East by Priests of an evolved religion just like all others with them declaring one of themselves to be a God, or the God, or Father and Son without a mom Gods, or there was a mom but she got written out of the story Gods, or a God offering himself to himself or three Gods yet one God don't ask it's a mystery, or whatever...
According to Job they hadn't even figured out where the rain or snow came from as it was a test they could not pass according to God then or what binds the "sweet influences of the Pleiades or loose the bands of Orion as well as what causes the march of the Zodiac (Mazzaroth) through the heavens. Of course the average High School student can answer those just fine and maybe their even their preteen siblings. Not to mention that a bat is not a bird! :) Lev 11:13-19
No wonder the Discovery Channel, Smithsonian, Nova and National Geographic are more captivating! :)
431 opines: "Anonymous said...
So as not to go long on this
...
Then he goes so too long on this and that and everything else oy vey!"
Apologies for straying outside your attention span. I tend to throw in personal perspectives and experiences to illustrate the point from my perspective which is the only one I actually have. Then I forge that earlier I intended not to go long. :) However, it's not really all that long a post and has been dwarfed in the past by some others, not of my making, which drew no fire. But I covered the fact that we have all types of commenters here and you provided a nice illustration of the point so thanks for that :)
Answer too long?
TLA said: A little over 1 year ago I started thinking and examining everything I read which is why I am now more in the agnostic camp and not attending any church.
This is one concern I have about some of the posting on this Blog, The Christian bible is very clear in the fact that anything that draws people away from God and Jesus Christ is not acceptable to the Christian faith. If this Blog supports those who have lost their faith in the Biblical God they are no better than the ACOG's who are accused being damaging and dangerous for people to support. ASB
8:57 AM Well Dennis I didn’t ask a question merely an observation. So your “answer” was not only excessive it was in fact unnecessary ;-) In any event have a happy new year! :-)
ASB - many people have different faiths - many of them non-Christian - that they believe in, beyond a shadow of a doubt. Some will even kill you for attempting to draw people away.
Besides religion, people have other fixed beliefs where they do not have a shadow of a doubt - for example politics.
What is wrong with being open-minded and admitting you do not know.
The biggest mystery of life is origin.
Why is there anything at all?
If God - how did He always exist.
If not God, then how did everything else exist.
If there is a Creator - did everything - dinosaurs and all get created 6,000 years ago - or do you believe in the gap theory and the universe was created 14 billion years ago?
If 14 billion years ago, what was God doing during all this time?
Maybe if there is a creator, time does not exist in the sane way it does for us - and the Bible does not really reflect the real creator(s).
It was comforting knowing all the answers - just like every other religious group does in their own way. But that is a little like "knowing" you won't get hit and killed if you walk into a busy highway without looking. Reality is a little bit different.
I am sorry but you missed my point. My point was that Christianity today should be focused on supporting the biblical beliefs not tearing them down. There are many Christian organizations that are healthy and presenting God's word and the hope given through Jesus Christ. All of my related families are Christian believers even though some may be in different Churches. I am old and would hate to see my families lose their faith. ASB
5.25 PM
Another mystery is that humans with a lifespan of less than 100 years can qualify to be over angels. The bible implies that they were created before the universe. We don't know how long this was. Which means that they are over 14 billion years old. Yet God doesn't trust them. Do they have the equivalent of the internet and smartphones? What have they been doing all this time?
I have been reading posts on this site for a few years. First I would like to commend you for the service of warning ACOG's of the harm they have caused so many sincere believers. You have brought many factual articles to expose the error Armstrongism which is a great service.
But I would also like to also admonish you at the same time. As you may know, mixed with all the error of Armstongism is much truth...if you BELIEVE GOD'S WORD. By being agnostic, atheistic, mocking and using coarse language, you destroy your credibility and much of the ACOG world will simply dismiss anything said here because of that.
Also you have thrown out the baby with the bathwater for those who believe the Bible. Compared to Protestantism, Catholicism and other Christian religions, the ACOG's have a higher percentage of truth. The error HWA introduced with this truth has more than defiled it at the same time. If you are to be taken seriously by those who you are warning, you must not try to also destroy their faith in God and His Word.
In my opinion, if you want push your disbelief in the Word of God at the same time warning of the REAL harm of Armstrongism, it is falling mostly on deaf ears...and that is a shame, because the message you are preaching in general is one that would help a lot of disillusioned brethren.
Anon 5:48,
I agree in large part with your comments here. However, I do disagree with the idea that the COGs have it more right than even Protestantism. The exclusivity and judging of other professing Christians as not having the Holy Spirit is spoken against rigorously in Scripture. The lack of teaching the redemptive work of the Lord in us today rather than simply looking to the future is a fundamental failing. I know some will disagree with this as they read an article or heard a sermon teaching this, but it should be the focus which none can say it is in the COGs.
Christ gives life now, not just in the future. The COGs do not get this. Again, this is fundamental.
the COGs don't have much right really as saying don't work on Sabbath and don't eat pork and the Kingdom one day will set things right is a weak "gospel". The primary reason this seemingly provides hope is if you believe it is coming soon in your lifetime. COG teaching is that this will basically affect only one future generation. And then there is 100 years of the 2nd resurrection. For those that have died and will be dead before that time a future Kingdom doesn't have as much hope as we have been lead to believe; being a part of Christ's current Kingdom does however give hope and joy in this current life.
Jim said: For those that have died and will be dead before that time a future Kingdom doesn't have as much hope as we have been lead to believe; being a part of Christ's current Kingdom does however give hope and joy in this current life.
In essence this is true, but the Christians of today do not make up a kingdom. It is better defined as the body of Christ. What is usually defined as a church is the Christian believers who have received the Holy Spirit and have dedicated their lives to a spiritual growth that reflects Holiness of God through Jesus Christ the Son of God. The faith, hope, and love contributes a radiated joy that a relationship with God will produce. ASB
Well, we all know that the most brilliant posts come from Anonymous.
In the NT we see parables that hide the real meaning from outsiders. This is a clue that the entire life of Jesus is a made-up story or "parable". It is mostly a combination of Judaism and mysticism.
The OT was a cover story for the masses. Those Jews "in the know" never believed much of it anyway. It was a religion for the common man and the outsider. Their real religion is in the Kabbalah and the Talmud. That's where their secrets lie. To reveal the secrets to outsiders is a death penalty.
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