This is sure to make Gerald Weston happy! His pathetic actions backfired upon him greatly. Estimates of 500+ people have defected from the Living Church of God. This is a pretty significant amount of people and money if you estimate 10% in tithes leaving LCG for Sheldon.
News Delivery: I can't confirm or deny anything, but what I heard from Sheldon Munson on his private live stream today was interesting. From what I heard, it sounds like he took at least, at the bare minimum, 200 or so LCG members. He said several hundred have already signed up for his prospective Feast site in the USA. He also made note of several large groups he already has. He also mentioned people in Kenya watching his live stream. He referred to them as brethren so I'm guessing he now has supporters in Kenya. He said he appreciates them working with his particular group down the road. They probably broke away from LCG too I'm assuming. I know he visited Kenya around 2012 or 13 I believe. So the people who are supporting him more than likely know him personally. So if I were to take an educated guess I think Sheldon and his group he formed took away somewhere around the ballpark of 500 members. More than likely from LCG. What sad days for Charlotte as the truth comes to light.
94 comments:
Gerald Weston deserves all of this happening to him and the church. His arrogance and condescending attitude are disgusting. He is the reason so many LCG members are leaving. They either are leaving LCG for other groups or out of the church entirely.
This is Bob Thiel
There must be a mistake. The Kenyans that joined Sheldon's church are in fact MY members. I'm sure I'm right because they gladly accepted all my free stuff.
I am so delighted to hear this! Weston deserves all of this.
Whether you agree with Monson's stance on masks and singing or not, the exodus of five hundred out of LCG is significant, and an indication of deeper issues within the fabric of the organization. Brethren in multiple groups have grown weary of the constant harping on church government, authority of the ministry, and over all heavy handedness of those who call themselves shepherds, with little genuine care for or love of the brethren being demonstrated.
Many who claim to be ministers do not seem to get the fact that they were not placed here to be rulers or lords of God's people, but to be "helpers" of their joy. 2Corinthians 1:24 When scriptures are taken out of context, and the drum beat of submission to the ministry is constantly stressed, with little balance or acknowledgment of mutual respect and submission between brethren, which we all are supposed to be, we have devolved into doing exactly what Jesus warned his disciples not to do, and the approach He told them not to take in dealing with their brethren. Matthew 20:25-28
Even Peter, who some in the COGs still promote as some sort of superior or head apostle, warned his fellow "elders" not to lord it over those entrusted to them, but to be examples to the flock. 1Peter 5:1-3 The Greek word for "exercising authority over" or "lord it over" in the above passages is katakurieuo, which means to bend down, exercise authority over, over power, master, or to exercise decisive control over as an owner with full jurisdiction. It is interesting that in the above passage Peter himself does not use authoritarian speech in his appeal to his "fellow elders". He doesn't pull the I am the "apostle" in charge card, but instead uses language that suggests brotherhood, rather than an authoritarian "thou shalt submit to me" attitude. He then tells them not to be lords of God's people, but instead to lead by example. This would imply that those who would be shepherds are in personal contact with those whom they shepherd. They are approachable, and easy to get along with. They are patient, kind, gentle, etc. They do not talk down to others, or behave in a haughty or superior manner. They are not dismissive or snide in their treatment or approach to others. They aren't just doing the job because of obligation or compulsion, but because they genuinely like and care about other people.
There is more to shepherding than spitting out a sermon once a week or throwing out an article or letter here and there promoting your own corporate flag. It is one thing to preach at people. It is quite another to actually connect with people in a meaningful way and have a positive influence in their lives. The first is impersonal and distant, the second is personal and caring. There are too many shepherds who want preach at and control people, but don't have a clue about how to connect with them. And then they wonder why people leave.
Concerned Sister
The big question is what percentage of tithe payers and future tithe payers left.
Retired people, unless wealthy, do not make as much as employed people. More of them are on assistance.
I am guessing a much higher percentage of the future left, and may well get joined by more younger people.
If any younger senior people join him, watch out!
500 is a fair number in these times to deflect. Although it will depend on the average age of the "Assembly 500" if it will affect LCG in the long run. If the average age is below 50 then LCG could be in trouble in the long run.
Ex ministers from any of the splinters, or the mother church itself, are invited to apply to the true-branch, RCG, where you might be granted your job (and salvation) back, provided you survive a very probing questionnaire and even more humiliating job interview..
Great! Sheldon's 200 members in the USA can subsidize his 300 Kenyan members!
There were a little less than 500 views of last week's sermon as of yesterday. Allowing for curiosity seekers and LCG monitoring, the figure of 200 members in the USA sounds about right.
Sheldon will be disappointed, however, when he finds out that people's independent attitudes are not just confined to mask-wearing but also to tithing. Once Sheldon starts cracking the HWA whip, he's going to lose some of this first wave of supporters. Like Dave Pack, he will probably cycle through members until he finds the right ones who want his particular brand of authoritarianism which is currently masked as boldness.
Typical snaggle-toothed COG flock behavior. "This way, no this way!"
The problem in the COG leadership and membership , historically, is not the wearing of masks. Rather, it is the lack of wearing
or both female and male CHASTITY BELTS!
This is the shaping effect of capitalism. The splinter groups are businesses. They have charters and generate products for their particular religious market. They supply certain demands. And that market is now highly competitive with many offerings and also very low barriers to market entry. The Church of God Assembly is just one of the latest entrants. Any disenchantment with a splinter group immediately sets the stage for defection to an existing group or to a newly created group. This is the formidable economic environment for splinter groups.
This places a governor on what splinter group leaders can and cannot do. The stirring up of disenchantment is the kiss of death for them. We no longer see one monolithic church with a single charismatic autocrat selling the idea that there is only one valid and legitimate church and to walk away from that church is equivalent to walking away from salvation. The fact is, capitalistic competition is much more effective in dismantling and diminishing splinter groups than the intellectual appeal of a blog like this one.
There will always be a demand for religions like Armstrongism. Some people, for whatever reasons, like the autocracy, the gnosticism, the biases, the ostentation, the denominationalism. These many little Apocalyptic Millerite cults will seek a stable place in the market but capitalism will always reign supreme over them.
For those who hope the COG ASS will be better than LCG, take note of Mr. Monson's behavior to date. He has been dismissive and rude to those who aren't already part of his inner circle of admirers, and he hasn't been very open even with his admirers. This doesn't bode well for the growth of his church. Members of the new COG ASS will expect to receive from Mr. Monson all the good things Meredith's church gave them, PLUS all the good Mr. Monson assured he could give if he weren't under LCG's thumb. Now when it's not just talk, but he must walk the walk, he'll soon find out that it is much easier to rebel than to rule.
I'll play Bwana Bob for a moment and make a prediction. Of the brethren who attend Mr. Monson's Feast site in 2020, no more than half of those will attend his Feast site in 2022, and any new faces in 2022 won't be enough to make up for the departed ones.
Anon 5:58
Typical cruel COG Ministry response only wanting silence off the lambs.
I think you will find Tonto that lack of chasity belt issues are more a leadership problem than membership.
Concerned Sister wrote a number of observations, including:
...They do not talk down to others, or behave in a haughty or superior manner. ....
The we-are-superior, I-am-the-Leader-you-dumb-sheep-you-can't-think attitudes go back to LCG beginnings.......back then people like us didn't buy into the "Pope" mentality Rod had in the original GCG/LCG split...
Some of us actually saw this in ministers, from the "Infallible" Rod Meredith and his inner circle to the counterfeit cronies like Charles Bryce.
Just compare them to Christs example and Paul's example.
Get back to your Bibles! And look for Real Ministers. they DO exist
LCG does not care about the members in Africa that they lose. Because they are low on the totem pole of the church (i.e. low income-producing) they tend to be begrudgingly coddled. LCG has always preferred that their resources went elsewhere than to Africa.
It blows my mind how in their writings, the LCG continues to glorify HWA and RCM as if they were Moses or Elijah. Deep down they know this is not true. HWA was a false apostle and all one has to do is look at the damage he did to his own children, his selfishness and unabashed greed. That trip he took to Communist China, he really did a lot of good there didn't he.
Well if that's how you think and feel Concerned Sister on how Pastors are meant to be then why haven't you started much closer to home on your own husband.
9:45A.M. said... "Get back to your Bibles! And look for real ministers. they DO exist!"
I agree that there are real ministers out there, but because of the political corruption among the cog hierarchy they might not always officially bear the title of "Minister". Frankly I have met little old ladies who had more on the ball spiritually and exemplified the love of Jesus Christ for others much better than the local pastor. I have also met unassuming men who quietly go about serving others and even offering wise words or council on occasion with little fanfare and little or no recognition by the church hierarchy. They don't do it for the brownie points, but because they genuinely care about other people, and their service and love aren't limited to their corporate COG institution. More and more it is people who are willing to cross artificial church lines and think outside the cultish box that you will see exemplifying the love and service Jesus spoke about. Those who are overly concerned with a title given by other men tend to miss the point.
Concerned Sister
10:53
What about the trip to China?
Do you know I saw the former 4th person in command in WCG hailed among the 10 most important/influential foreign persons ever in China on State Television aired over entire Central Asia.
Nck
Anonymous said...
Whether you agree with Monson's stance on masks and singing or not, the exodus of five hundred out of LCG is significant, and an indication of deeper issues within the fabric of the organization. Brethren in multiple groups have grown weary of the constant harping on church government, authority of the ministry, and over all heavy handedness of those who call themselves shepherds, with little genuine care for or love of the brethren being demonstrated.
Many who claim to be ministers do not seem to get the fact that they were not placed here to be rulers or lords of God's people, but to be "helpers" of their joy. 2Corinthians 1:24 When scriptures are taken out of context, and the drum beat of submission to the ministry is constantly stressed, with little balance or acknowledgment of mutual respect and submission between brethren, which we all are supposed to be, we have devolved into doing exactly what Jesus warned his disciples not to do, and the approach He told them not to take in dealing with their brethren. Matthew 20:25-28
Even Peter, who some in the COGs still promote as some sort of superior or head apostle, warned his fellow "elders" not to lord it over those entrusted to them, but to be examples to the flock. 1Peter 5:1-3 The Greek word for "exercising authority over" or "lord it over" in the above passages is katakurieuo, which means to bend down, exercise authority over, over power, master, or to exercise decisive control over as an owner with full jurisdiction. It is interesting that in the above passage Peter himself does not use authoritarian speech in his appeal to his "fellow elders". He doesn't pull the I am the "apostle" in charge card, but instead uses language that suggests brotherhood, rather than an authoritarian "thou shalt submit to me" attitude. He then tells them not to be lords of God's people, but instead to lead by example. This would imply that those who would be shepherds are in personal contact with those whom they shepherd. They are approachable, and easy to get along with. They are patient, kind, gentle, etc. They do not talk down to others, or behave in a haughty or superior manner. They are not dismissive or snide in their treatment or approach to others. They aren't just doing the job because of obligation or compulsion, but because they genuinely like and care about other people.
There is more to shepherding than spitting out a sermon once a week or throwing out an article or letter here and there promoting your own corporate flag. It is one thing to preach at people. It is quite another to actually connect with people in a meaningful way and have a positive influence in their lives. The first is impersonal and distant, the second is personal and caring. There are too many shepherds who want preach at and control people, but don't have a clue about how to connect with them. And then they wonder why people leave.
Concerned Sister
September 13, 2020 at 1:30 AM
This is spot on!! well said
Anonymous said...
Whether you agree with Monson's stance on masks and singing or not, the exodus of five hundred out of LCG is significant, and an indication of deeper issues within the fabric of the organization. Brethren in multiple groups have grown weary of the constant harping on church government, authority of the ministry, and over all heavy handedness of those who call themselves shepherds, with little genuine care for or love of the brethren being demonstrated.
Many who claim to be ministers do not seem to get the fact that they were not placed here to be rulers or lords of God's people, but to be "helpers" of their joy. 2Corinthians 1:24 When scriptures are taken out of context, and the drum beat of submission to the ministry is constantly stressed, with little balance or acknowledgment of mutual respect and submission between brethren, which we all are supposed to be, we have devolved into doing exactly what Jesus warned his disciples not to do, and the approach He told them not to take in dealing with their brethren. Matthew 20:25-28
Even Peter, who some in the COGs still promote as some sort of superior or head apostle, warned his fellow "elders" not to lord it over those entrusted to them, but to be examples to the flock. 1Peter 5:1-3 The Greek word for "exercising authority over" or "lord it over" in the above passages is katakurieuo, which means to bend down, exercise authority over, over power, master, or to exercise decisive control over as an owner with full jurisdiction. It is interesting that in the above passage Peter himself does not use authoritarian speech in his appeal to his "fellow elders". He doesn't pull the I am the "apostle" in charge card, but instead uses language that suggests brotherhood, rather than an authoritarian "thou shalt submit to me" attitude. He then tells them not to be lords of God's people, but instead to lead by example. This would imply that those who would be shepherds are in personal contact with those whom they shepherd. They are approachable, and easy to get along with. They are patient, kind, gentle, etc. They do not talk down to others, or behave in a haughty or superior manner. They are not dismissive or snide in their treatment or approach to others. They aren't just doing the job because of obligation or compulsion, but because they genuinely like and care about other people.
There is more to shepherding than spitting out a sermon once a week or throwing out an article or letter here and there promoting your own corporate flag. It is one thing to preach at people. It is quite another to actually connect with people in a meaningful way and have a positive influence in their lives. The first is impersonal and distant, the second is personal and caring. There are too many shepherds who want preach at and control people, but don't have a clue about how to connect with them. And then they wonder why people leave.
Concerned Sister
September 13, 2020 at 1:30 AM
This is spot on!! well said
Nck
Who is that 4th person. With all the power struggles in the church, it's not obvious.
4:31 pm
THis might be who they mean https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/technology/video/china-advisor-kuhn-on-trade-spat-hong-kong-protests~1748512
4:31
It was not obvious because he did not function in any ecclesiastical position.
The AICF seems to have been his brainchild, assistant to the heir apparent, Systemizer of our creed, originator of the "spirit in man vs animal concept, and many more strategic designs that defined wcg.
WCG also sponsored a "China chair" at Oxford University, the 2nd Ambassador Auditorium in Beijing that to this day has been influential in introducing "western" culture into China etc etc etc.
But I won't name names since I'm about the influence ideas wielded not persons perse.
Nck
HWA while visiting the Chinese Communists was ashamed to speak of the sacrifice of Christ, instead he blathered about some "Unseen hand from someplace." That doesn't quite fit with how the true apostles spoke to despots like Nero or Herod when they spoke about Christ.
Maybe nck is talking about somebody I think was named Kuhn who shortly thereafter left Worldwide & became some envoy doing business to open Communist China before Tiananmen Square.
NCK thinks we are too stupid to know who he is talking about and by being absurdly evasive makes him feel superior to all of us whom he thinks are below him in knowledge and experience. This is the same modus operandi he has used all along. It also is a way fo him to divert attention away from the subject at hand that he doesn't know much about and towards a subject he can self-righteously pontificate upon.
LCG has upwards of 10,000 people. So 5 percent defected? That's not a very big number in the big scheme of things. LCG won't miss a beat.
I don't think so.
LCG does NOT have 10,000 members. That is a lie and they know it. I worked there. I know the real numbers.
7:09
No. I just asked a simple question that could be answered without disturbing the topic. I know how google works so I don't mention his name. Not because I think people cannot know.
I do think that 7:09 is one of the dumb and stupid ones, you can tell because of my precise and exact tackling of his accusation.
Regarding Monson. I don't care. The little splinter will dwindle into nothingness or grow into the catholic church when pcg starts finding what they are digging for. But most people know it will be the first option.
Indeed by 2022,150 african members and 90 us, 12 europe from the kingdom of mazagaskia with that american princess.
Nck
No.
HWA, gospel was not about Jesus so NO ONE expected him too.
Did apostles actually speak to Herod or Nero or are you making things up to make an uneducated point?
Nck
All the ACOGs lie about their numbers. These churches lie as much as politicians.
Aaron Dean perhaps.
To the person who says they know LCG's real numbers, what would the real number be? 6,000? 7,000? How much are the numbers inflated?
Anon 10:36PM
Give us the real number!
Hey Anonymous of September 13, 2020 at 10:36 - if you know the real LCG numbers - please tell us what they are!
Speaking of propagandistic inflation check out this claim from the equally awful GCI:
"..our 30,000 members in about 550 churches spread across 70 countries.."
LCG does NOT have 10,000 members. That is a lie and they know it. I worked there. I know the real numbers.
Rod McNair spread the 10,000 lie one year in order to please Rod Meredith about Feast of Tabernacles attendance, but the lie came back to haunt him when he couldn't support it again in years when others were able to look closely at the numbers, and McNair's lie falsely created an impression of LCG decline. I am shocked that Gerald Weston keeps Rod McNair at LCG HQ where he can do so much damage and corrupt others. Perhaps Rod knows so many of LCG's secrets that it would be dangerous to fire him, but Weston could certainly transfer McNair to be a well-paid field pastor where he would feel compelled to remain silent so he wouldn't have to go out and get a real job.
LCG uses magical thinking to get their numbers and even then they can’t arrive at 10,000! They count dead people who haven’t been taken out of the data base, people who have moved and have 2 addresses in the data base get counted twice, newborns are counted, people who requested their sad little magazine or booklets get counted, etc.. It’s a shell game. If you count ACTUAL Sabbath attendance in their congregations, 5000 is closer to the mark. And that’s including those kids sleeping on the floor in front of their parents. My husband worked in the festival department in Charlotte for years. He had a large wall-sized map with numbers over each congregation on the map. This was used to asses the need for site locations near concentrations of brethren. They didn’t want people to have to drive more than a certain distance to get to the Feast. Accurate numbers were also required to plan events and for contract negotiations. You can’t tell a hotel 2000 people are going to show up and then only deliver 800 without huge attrition penalties. It’s pathetic that a “church” feels the need to lie so much. LCG lies so much that I honestly believe they have gotten lost in their lies! And since the brethren are told to blindly obey and believe them because they alleged to be the “ Government God” they don’t think for a minute that they are being overtly deceived. They live in an alternate reality. The men at LCG HQ are horrible people who mistreat sincere and loving sheep. There will most certainly be a day they will answer for all they have done. May God speed that day.
Nck
Arousing peoples curiosity and then not giving the answer is emotional abuse.
Where did you learn this? From one of your city slicker lawyer pals or did you grow up in a dysfunctional family?
LCG has in the neighborhood of 5000 members in the USA. If Munson took 200 in the USA , then that is about a 4% hit for LCG.
International numbers are somewhat meaningless in COGDOM. Claimed groups of 5000 in Angola , or Kenya and the like, are very fluid, and are actually a NET COST for all of these orgs, as they area all based on money hierarchy and necessity for maintenance or growth.
The COG needs to move beyond measuring monetary growth , or even "warm body in the third world" growth with spiritual growth.
Lol Anon 6:42
Nck has never been a lawyer in his life.
Think outside of the box nck wants to manipulate you in.
If you think nck likes to practise emotional abuse then what job would he flourish in.
is there a link to this private live stream?
is there a link to this private live stream?
Sheldon has decided to go full-on Hulme/Flurry with this. You can get the private link if you e-mail Sheldon directly. COG ASS seems to be a private cult of mostly younger people Sheldon groomed while head of LCG's youth programs, along with some loyal members of his various congregations from over the years. It's all about recapturing the feel of WCG's "glory years" when HWA was king, the ministers were royal princes, and the members were taught to feel not just more fortunate than, but actually better than, the uncalled riff-raff in the world around them.
No.
5:43 is right
Welcome to my world (widecog.)
I was never in the "cupboard to be inspected, vaccination fearful, gta childrearing league" fortunately, but a different box, I occassionally shed light on, when I see outrageous statements.
Nck
Tonto at 7:12 AM said...“International numbers are somewhat meaningless in COGDOM. Claimed groups of 5000 in Angola , or Kenya and the like, are very fluid, and are actually a NET COST for all of these orgs, as they area all based on money hierarchy and necessity for maintenance or growth.”
This reminds me of the Church of God (Seventh Day) with about 5,000 people in the USA but supposedly anywhere from 200,000 to 400,000 people internationally. The big difference between those two large numbers made it clear that people were just guessing and making up numbers.
How ironic: division over wearing masks. People in the COGs have been wearing masks for a long, long time.
7.49 AM
People pick up "fleas" from difficult people. This isn't the same as liking emotional abuse.
The big difference between those two large numbers made it clear that people were just guessing and making up numbers.
Actually, no. If all you know is the WCG/ACOG model I understand why think so, but it's not true for most of the world. Most churches don't keep extensive member files on donors and on individuals who have attended their services, including attendance records showing exactly how often (and on what dates) they've attended. In the real world, it's not unheard of for people to attend more than one congregation within a denomination, and even to attend (let's say) a Baptist church some of the time and a Presbyterian church other times, depending on family member preference or location or preacher, etc.
Yes, Armstrongists, it's true. Most churches don't take attendance each week. Most don't keep any sort of detailed financial records about their members at any level beyond the local congregation, and many don't even do that much, simply depositing donations every week. Most don't require the minister/priest to consent to your marriage. The degree of control or even knowledge of individual private matters is far less in most churches than is considered normal in the ACOGs.
@Anon 1:01PM
And that level of control is the difference between a church and a cult..
1.01 PM
That's not the impression I get from watching the tele evangelists and reading their literature. Kenneth Copeland in one of his programs claimed that God was whispering in Adams ear telling him what to name the animals. That is, they teach that God's system is one of tyranny. They all use the same playbook, only differing in the details. After all, Herb spent 11 years in one of these churches, learning their evil ways and dirty tricks.
The reason members often have more freedom in these churches is their larger size, and the belief that they can change church affiliation.
Every Armstrong splinter group is a cult. I was completely blind to that while I was in. But now that I’ve been out for a while it’s so obvious. I sometimes feel shame for falling for their pitch. It makes me feel stupid and guilty. I console myself by remembering that at least I’m out now.
Most Christian churches believe that their members have the Holy Spirit, and that it is the responsibility of the priest or minister to be a helper of the members' joy, encouraging the members to grow by learning how to use the Spirit to live better lives.
Most Armstrong churches believe that although members theoretically have the Holy Spirit, they must be "as little children" before the ministers with whom they are expected to counsel before making "major" decisions (where the definition of "major" depends on where you stand in the pecking order).
12:48
True.
Wallowing in their "victimhood", people can't even bear easy to solve riddles. They need direct answers, to questions never asked. They WANT to be in a cult only giving answers to questions they dont have. Some are still in the "twittercog" splinter cult and were before even joining a cog. Tormented like demons (if they existed), when someone holds up a mirror. Then accusing the mirror in their madness. I'm not the abuser. I just hold up a miror that provides the exact as answer the demon inside tries to avoid.
Nck
Steven Hassan's 'Combating Cult Mind Control' is a must read for anyone who doubts that the ACOGs are run along cult lines. This is in harmony with Christ's question of will Be find faith (ie, doing things His way) on His return. Apparently the answer is no, at least with the ACOG leaders.
To borrow a line from Princess Leia -
"The more you tighten your grip, Mr Weston, the more members will slip through your fingers."
Along that line I am so embarrassed that I used to pay first,second and third tithe(cant forget offerings too) how was I so blind? Tch Tch! but as you said the more you are away, the more you see how cultish these COGS are.
Anon September 14, 2020 at 5:52 AM
Hi Elizabeth
Anon 5:52
I remember that huge map with the numbers. I know who you are. Hope you are well. You certainly would know the numbers.
And readers here are expected to believe the lie that nck is a lawyer and not a rebel within the ministry.
Every COG lies about numbers.. I know for a fact that the RCG has only about 30 members in the whole of Europe. Yet they keep saying it’s ‘hundreds’. Likewise for the other continents.
I don't understand why people aren't sick of this continual governance in-fighting. Aren't they sick of being in churches that continually spit in half because they don't have the Fruits of the Spirit. Quit following a church and start following and focusing on your personal relationship with God!
These little internecine squabbles between splinter groups can take on a moment of drama. But, in the final analysis, these are battles between guppies not Leviathans. I do not mean to diminish the genuine destructiveness of cults. It is troubling that some people are in such a slavish mindset that they can be terrorized by a raging guppy.
I don't know how many LCG members there are. Whatever the number, it is too many. I have yet to identify any theological difference between the Church of God Assembly and LCG. If people can divide solely over mask wearing they can divide over anything.
I don't think nck is a lawyer. I seldom understand what he writes. But then again I seldom understand what Karl Barth writes.
I became suspicious of nck being a lawyer a few weeks ago when he asked why a prosecutor would drop a case (in reference to the HWA incest allegations). A good lawyer could give half a dozen reasons, including the statute of limitations, lack of evidence and lack of cooperation by the victim.
"Every COG lies about numbers.. I know for a fact that the RCG has only about 30 members in the whole of Europe."
Back around 2006-2007 Dave gave a sermon that contained information about RCG "growth" - which was a measure (according what Dave said HWA taught) of "fruits". The statistics he gave went something like "and there was a 15% growth in this quarter, followed by a doubling in members in this area and a 12% increase in FOT offerings and a quarter increase in this year's downloads based on an average change of ..." I copied every detail into a spreadsheet, and worked out that the total membership was a multiple of about 5000. Other factors suggested it was only 5000, not 10,000 or 15,000...
Anon 10:00 AM
Poor Davey has lost a lot of his followers since then, ‘cause there’s only about 1,500 members left now!
The only one with demons nck is you.
It seems the people are finally figuring out that Herb was a cult leader leading a dooms-day cult. It took how long???
You overestimate Dave's math skills.
There were many of us on staff who knew all the numbers were cooked. If you didn't make them go up you lost the job. Numbers going down caused him visible confusion. It simply wasn't possible.
I reckon all of this ASD/OCD fixation with the numbers in COG after COG just proves the wisdom of Mark Twain’s words: There are 3 types of lies in the world. Lies, damned lies and statistics!
On the other hand, the church isn't just "governance", but the body of believers. People may stay in a group with flawed leaders because they perceive the hand of God at work in the lives of many of the people. You say "following a church" but I think of it as "being in a church community".
The Christian calling is not just an individual relationship between a person and God. There are great benefits to be had in being in a community of believers who share faith and beliefs.
September 15, 2020 at 10:18 PM said, "The Christian calling is not just an individual relationship between a person and God. There are great benefits to be had in being in a community of believers who share faith and beliefs."
WRONG
The Christian calling IS an individual relationship between a person and God.
And when it comes to any of the splinter groups which are rotten to their core because their root is rotten it is FAR better to not be in those "communities".
My relationship with God has grown 10000 fold since leaving that toxic environment. Armstrongism IN ANY FORM is like water on a fire, or cancer to a body... it kills the Holy Spirit.
10.18 PM
Your post seems like a cut and paste from a Catholic publication. Leaders like Ayatollah Dave Packman are more than just flawed. He has financially ruined many of his followers and left widows destitute. Esau sold his birth right for a bowl of soup. In these ACOGs, the bowl of soup is your "community of believers who share faith and beliefs."
The price is way too high.
1018,
I wonder if you wouldn't find more similarity and satisfaction in a Bible based Baptist church in your community. Observe sabbath and get spiritual enrichment from a local congregation that gets the spiritual side better than COgs. There are also 7th day Baptists. Just sayin!
What makes this all worthwhile is that finally there is a splinter abbreviation COG ASS.
I say amen to that!
10;18 P.M. stated..."On the other hand, the church isn't just "governance", but the body of believers. People may stay in a group with flawed leaders because they perceive the hand of God at work in the lives of many of the people. You say "following a church" but I think of it as "being in a church community.
The Christian calling is not just an individual relationship between a person and God. There are great benefits to be had in being in a community of believers who share faith and beliefs."
It is true that fellowship with other Christians can be beneficial and under the right circumstances it can enhance and foster a deeper relationship between a person and God, as people encourage and edify each other within the body. It is also true that people stay in a group with flawed leaders in some cases for the value of the fellowship they find within that group. Truth be told, all leaders are flawed, because all leaders are human. The issue lies in just how flawed a human leader is, and how those flaws affect the bent or balance of the entire group. When the flaws of the human leadership of a group, whether it be one man, or a group of men, are allowed to poison and pervade the whole group, or at least most of it, you then have the issue of when do the negative characteristics of the group outweigh the positive fellowship one might benefit from further attendance with that particular group?
This is the dilemma that many in the COGs of today find themselves in, and part of the reason we see so much movement of the people between groups, and why some are dropping out all together and quietly keeping the Sabbath at home to the best of their ability. They have been browbeaten and disillusioned, and when they look out at the sea of COG splinters, the conclusion they come to is that all of them have problems, and many of those problems are promoted and encouraged by the leadership of each group. Add to this the conditioning that has occurred within many of the groups that if you withdraw attendance from that group you have "left the church" or are in disobedience to "God's government" and the encouragement of shunning and avoidance of fellowship between the groups and you have a situation where more and more Christians sit at home isolated, with no one checking on them, visiting them, serving them, or caring about them. And the shepherds are so busy fighting among themselves and trying to maintain their own pecking order and control over the people that do attend, that these bleeding and victimized sheep are ignored and forgotten about.
What can we as individual Christians do? Stop listening to the divisive leaders who would tell you to shun someone in this circumstance. Continue to fellowship and visit with people who attend with other groups when you can. Call or visit people that you know have dropped off the radar of any group, and might need human fellowship and contact from time to time. Start acting like a body of believers who exemplify the love of Christ rather than a bunch of infighting factious carnal humans who devour each other. Galatians 5:14-15 We are not all going to agree on every single point of doctrine in this lifetime, and while no one should act contrary to their own conscience on a matter,(Philippians 2:12-13) we all need to understand that growing in grace and knowledge and coming to unity of the faith is an ongoing process that is only hampered when everyone always sits in their own corner or on their own mountain top and never tries to engage with anyone else who might view something differently than they do. No single leader or group of leaders can claim to teach ALL truth, because all are human, all make mistakes, and no one person totally or completely reflects or understands the mind of God. Isaiah 55:8-9 No one has room to point fingers at anyone else, and no one has the right to claim popish authority over others, or presume to make judgements concerning a brothers or sisters standing before God.
Concerned Sister
"Every COG lies about numbers."
Yes they do, but it's not just about cooking the membership numbers, it's also about falsifying Facebook and Youtube likes and hits. This is easily done anymore. Any COG affiliate who claims they are getting social media numbers in the thousands is lying.
I am going to follow Christ and I feel The Lamp has been Gone here in LCG Australia. I will be with this new group soon.
Interesting Concerned Sister.
From an extremely narrow viewpoint I find the instructions to the "radio audience" interesting, until HWA was forced by the IRS to establish local churches or loose "church status". It was a "radio" church of god. Not much potluck.
I mean, people still went to local churches or were recommended "christian colleges", even 2 colleges for black people in texas were recommended for those who couldnt go to AC.
A far cry from todays cog view on home schooling and rampant marxism in todays universities. I guess America in 1950 was more COG like. I think people dressed up for the radio too.
Nck
Well stated Concerned Sister @ 2:53 p.m.
So how many does Dave really have left in his cult?
Meanwhile in the real world Concerned Sister the opposite goes on, even with you.
"churches or loose "church status"."
Loose? LOOSE? ROFLMAO
Lawyer my ass!
An intelligent person would see that both spellings are right.
Other than that, it is well established here that I don't care about grammar, interpunction, spelling or communication in general.
It's my response to legalism and the people here who are telling cog members what to do, how to behave or how to interpret church literature.
They are funnier than the entrapped themselves.
Nck
"An intelligent person would see that both spellings are right."
How are both spellings correct within the context of your sentence? You clearly meant lose, not loose.
"From an extremely narrow viewpoint I find the instructions to the "radio audience" interesting, until HWA was forced by the IRS to establish local churches or loose "church status"."
9:46
Yes I meant to say "lose", but depending on either the view of hwa (following the business managers advice), or the IRS, the misspeling of "loose", might be correct too.
It was the IRS who informed the business manager that radio church of god did not conform to tax exempt status within several States because it had no "local congregations".
So "lose" tax exemption or "loose" the church affix.
A spree of local churches got established after the 1952 notice.
So yes I misspelled (as I do all the time) and even then was right from several angles.
Test me when I'm really trying!
Nck
If 500 leave LCG to go with Sheldon, even if they don't stay, would they be comfortable going back to LCG or would they go elsewhere? Would they be uncomfortable going back to have people think, "I told you so."? I think they might go elsewhere or simply use this as their exit from the C of G altogether.
Monson and Fritz have been open about their desire to seek a reconciliation at some stage when the whole COVID/mask schmozzle has blown over. They just want to be able to practice their religion in good conscious toward God--which is a fundamental right of everyone. No one should seek to take this away from away as Mr Weston has done (and subsequent disfellowship and even marking!).
@ 2:45 PM, Sheldon's own father left LCG for a while and then came back.
Monson and Fritz have been open about their desire to seek a reconciliation at some stage when the whole COVID/mask schmozzle has blown over. They just want to be able to practice their religion in good conscious toward God--which is a fundamental right of everyone.
Weston hasn't disfellowshipped or marked anyone for choosing to stay away from LCG services on account of the pandemic. If members are meeting at home with a few safe people in their private "pod" they are allowed to do so, and nobody forces them to wear masks.
Monson wasn't satisfied with this. He wants to impose his will on groups of members, contrary to Weston's will. Since Weston's will allows people to follow their conscience, Monson's actions are exposed as pride and rebellion. If Monson sincerely desired reconciliation, he could have agreed to stay home and not wear a mask. The fact that he engaged in a completely unnecessary public rebellion against his boss reveals that this wasn't some innocent guy seeking harmony and reconciliation.
@Anon 2:45 PM: "If 500 leave LCG to go with Sheldon..."
Not sure 500 actually left LCG and joined him. Sheldon comes from LCG, so he's used to cheat with attendance numbers. Also, many people who had already left LCG are now joining him (take for example the Sc. family, and that makes quite a few dozens of members).
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