Tell Me Your Stories of Racism in the PCG
Hi all ex-PCG members!
I am an ex-PCG member who attended HWA College and wrote for the Trumpet magazine. I grew up in the church and eventually left in late 2017. While I was almost completely oblivious to the PCG's racism while I attended, I slowly grew more aware after I left of not just the racist legacy of the WCG, but the continuing racist practices the PCG pursues, all while denying that any of these things exist.
I have been thinking about writing an extensive piece on racism in the PCG, but while I can do all the research on the PCG's doctrines, attempted scriptural backing, or their origins in the WCG, I don't have any personal experiences to draw on, since I was a white male who went through 22 years of the PCG with little to no thoughts on race.
While there are lots of small stories here and there, there aren't any deep dives like the WCG has in Jerald Walker's book Growing Up In Flames: A Black Boyhood in a White Supremacist Doomsday Cult.
If you have a story that you would like to tell about your experiences dealing with racism in the PCG, I would like to hear them. Or if you know someone who would love to tell their story, please direct them my way. Without these first-hand stories, I doubt I will publish anything on race in the PCG, since I don't exactly feel qualified to be the one to do so.
You can get in contact with me through my email: kierenjunderwood@gmail.com.
Thanks,
Kieren Underwood
33 comments:
Racism is a blight that should be rooted out of all of the ACOGs!
Most of the splinters are very racist to this day and incapable of recognizing malignant narcissism or a sociopath
How about the fact that at waving of a little finger they decided who can marry whom. I know a MANY examples of of someone with a white parent and for example a Filipino parent, the ministry likes to play all powerful god in your life and dictate to you whom you can marry. Not both, nor the race you look the most like as they sometimes liked to use but their whim! “You shall, even though you are half and half will ONlY marry a Filipino lady”. I have spoken it so it is so! Brian Davis gets off on this one a lot!
There are probably some out there who are right now thinking "Oh, no, Kieren! Don't talk to the ex-members! They're all just so bitter, and will lie about God's Church to destroy it!" (If Herbie never patented this line of thought, he certainly should have).
However, there is a time-honored practice amongst human resources professionals in industry called the "exit interview". The idea is that when a person is no longer part of a company, there is a certain freedom and honesty available to them. No longer in fear of discipline, demotion, or being passed up on their raise, he or she will speak freely, and may share some points which will help make the company better. It's valuable. There is one thing about Armstrongism, though. You will never, ever hear any of the leaders speak of "making our church better". It is considered presumptuous and disrespectful for a member to evaluate, or indulge in constructive criticism of the church or its ministers.
It is interesting that the Seventh Day Adventists have honed their member retention skills into a fine art, and their church is growing not only by adding members on a regular basis, but also in keeping the ones who are already members as valued assets. Nobody is considered to be expendable, as is the rule rather than exception in the ACOGs.
I believe the leadership of all these little ACOG splinters need to hear that, "Hey, know what? Your church is really FUBAR!
It's so tiring watching the "woke" in the church try and claim all kinds of bad things happened in the past. There was no discrimination in the church, particularly under Mr. Armstrong. Since Christ worked directly through him Christ did not allow discrimination to happen. God's minister did not allow it in the church. This is all a creation meant to destroy the credibility of God's HOLY Church!
You poor thing!
Can't speak to any personal instances of racism, as I too am a white man, but I remember one half-white, half-filipino man my age asked me if I thought he looked white at all. I said no (I had never seen his parents, and didn't know he was half-white). Nevertheless, he was, and should have been able to choose who to date, white or asian. But he wasn't given the choice like other mixed-race people because he looked SO asian, the church just couldn't have him dating white. Then I remember one girl who dated white for about a decade changing to dating black. I didn't know she was half-black, because she looked SO white. Nevertheless, she was allowed to do so. This all just goes to show that it's not about the percentage of your ethnicity, it's about what the ministers want for you. It's all subjective and racist.
Can't speak to any personal instances of racism, as I too am a white man, but I remember one half-white, half-filipino man my age asked me if I thought he looked white at all. I said no (I had never seen his parents, and didn't know he was half-white). Nevertheless, he was, and should have been able to choose who to date, white or asian. But he wasn't given the choice like other mixed-race people because he looked SO asian, the church just couldn't have him dating white. Then I remember one girl who dated white for about a decade changing to dating black. I didn't know she was half-black, because she looked SO white. Nevertheless, she was allowed to do so. This all just goes to show that it's not about the percentage of your ethnicity, it's about what the ministers want for you. It's all subjective and racist.
"... I don't have any personal experiences to draw on, since I was a white male who went through 22 years of the PCG with little to no thoughts on race."
That's how it is in the COG. Race is not considered. The antagonist has freely admitted that, yet it longs to do a "hit piece". We know who he's working for.
Ok, thats too farfetched, even for a sockpuppet.
Anonymous 3/15 @ 12:55,
If it's so tiring, why don't you just go back to sleep and dream your deluded dreams about the past! Herbert Armstrong didn't even meet the qualifications to be a minister of Jesus Christ - let alone an apostle or prophet. Something was working through him, but it wasn't God! God's Church is Holy, but the various ACOGs are NOT!
Trey at 12:55, you are in complete denial if you seriously think there isn't any amount of racism within ACOG.
I have to laugh every time I see some ignorant red neck seize on the concept of correcting our errors by doing the right thing now, and mock it by using the new cliche "woke". And, no, 12:55, Jesus does not work through men who put their penises into their daughters. Herbie was a deceiver and a heretic from the very beginning, and his continually failing prophecies are all the proof a reasonable person needs to realize that Armstrongism is a total scam. But, a troll like yourself already knows that.
Many problems with old wcg, but I always remember an integrated congregation. I had mutually respectful friendships with black friends among other ethnicities. Obviously, the teaching of blacks being of the line of Ham and the separation of the races in even the kingdom are demeaning but I have to say that when a church claims all members are the chosen and many white mainstream Christians are relegated to the unchosen, then black wcg members are thought of as special and greater than other races outside the chiurch club and that diminishes the probability of racism.
How are the splinters racist if they have black people in it?
Certainly in the 1960s and 1950s there was a quasi "Jim Crow" in the WCG.
There was a "quota" on minorities to be admitted to Ambassador College, and even whole congregations that were designated for attendance.
For instance there was L.A. One, also known as the "Negro Church" pastored by Abler Washington , where blacks were expected or directed to go to, and a "Spanish Church" that met in Pasadena as well.
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Seating at the FOT had "Colored sections", and interacial marriage, dating or even dancing were extreme taboos.
Im sure that many here would verify these statements. The COGs are disproportionately Caucasian, (in the USA) vs a baseline of population distribution. The difficult question then needs to be asked... IS GOD RACIST?
In your research you should include the following:
1. The erroneous use of the Canaanites by Armstrongists to establish a policy against racial intermarriage. Canaan and his descendants were closely related to the Jews as evinced by genetics.
2. The attitude in Classical Armstrongism that Native Americans should have been wholly exterminated by the early British derived pioneers and colonists. And that not doing so was an act or rebellion against God.
3. The belief on the part of Herman Hoeh that different races of people should not only
refrain from intermarriage but they should not even socialize with each other.
All of this was rooted in Armstrongist theology and was not just an accommodation to social or cultural convention of the times.
******** Click on my icon for Disclaimer
Can't tell if this is a joke or you're legitimately trying to make the COG community look even dumber...
Not sure what you mean when you say "race is not considered." How is not being able to marry between races, being rejected from acceptance to a college because of racial quotas, my local minister preaching that Aboriginals were the most degenerate race on earth not racial and racist?
How is that store owner racist if he serves Asians and black folks?... after taking great pains to make sure all the white customers are served first? How is the bus system racist if they let Negroes ride... in the back?
Anyway, there are things I could tell, but they all occurred in WCG. Never attended a splinter.
This topic is complex, but it's also simple. The Golden Rule is an equal opportunities philosophy, as is Jesus' commandment to love fellow man. If everyone were to remember and practice that, racism would vanish from the face of the earth.
In Armstrongism, people broke those, sadly, often having convinced themselves that they were obeying God in so doing. If you can make it appear that it's God who is doing it (He isn't!) then you can convince yourself that "How can that be racist?"
People took God's attitudes regarding behaviors, such as idol worship, paganism, and debauchery, and since it was (wink) nonIsraelites who were doing those things (of course so did the Israelites), these people made it appear as if God were racist. For all of the reverence HWA taught for Moses, he sure didn't dwell on the fact that Moses had an exotic wife. And, how quickly we forget that Manasseh and Ephraim's mommy was Egyptian, a category which included Nubian Egyptians, so the lady could very well have been black. How can logically thinking people read the Bible and have such facts completely go over their heads?
1.49 PM
Moses did not sin by having a "exotic wife." If you read the context, he had to flee for his life from Egypt. So he did the best he could by choosing a local girl as a mate. Was Manasseh and Ephraim's mommy an Egyptian? We don't know because Egyptian royalty was often of foreign descent. For example, Cleopatra was of Greek descent.
If either of them were in fact Cushite (Numbers 12) or native Egyptian, would you consider that a sin?
In my nearly two decades in the PCG, as both a youth and young adult, I attended summer camps, singles outings and traveled the world for the FOT, including Australia, Fiji, South America, the Caribbean Islands and Europe. In my interactions with lay members from numerous cultures and races I didn't observe any overtly racist behavior. In fact, members considered each other 'brothers and sisters in Christ' so race was largely overlooked and rarely mentioned. My home congregation included a wide variety of races as well and I was close friends with young people and families of other races.
Summer camp dances, singles events (and FOT dances) were the events where distinguishing between race became most evident. I found it odd that dancing wasn't allowed between the races. The logic went: "dancing is dating; ipso facto, you can't dance with someone from another race". Never really got the dancing is dating part; I can dance with my mother or my aunt or my sister -- that's not dating. If you've ever been to an Armenian wedding, men hold hands with men and women with women and they dance all night long. It just seemed like a constructed narrative that's not true in many other cultures.
I knew of a handful of cases where people had mixed blood and the ministry was involved to determine who they could date. I wasn't part of those conversations, but from what was shared by those people, it didn't seem to be a very objective ruling. It went mostly by what they 'looked like'. There were lots of lonely, non-white young people. I know that a number of my Filipino friends fell in this category. Then again, the dating pool simply wasn't that big because of pure math. I knew a young, white girl in Australia who was in her prime (very pretty, intelligent and funny), and she was date-less (and lonely) simply because there was nobody around.
Being young and having nobody to date took a lot of people out of that group. It's encoded into our being to want to connect with someone when you're young and healthy and at your physical peak. I also (unrelated) knew of a minister's son who had a girlfriend outside the church for a period of time. At the time only a handful of us knew. We all knew it was 'wrong' but we kept out mouths shut. I think quite a few of us were jealous in one way or another.
I too experienced racism from one of the splinter groups. There are scenarios where you can go to a singles event and there may be 40 or 50 singles and there may only one female of your own race, and “the powers that be” only want to stay with your “own kind” when they preach that we all are God’s people. And if you are not interested or attracted to the only other single of your race that “the powers that be “ want you to choose, then you are the one with the problem. Meanwhile the single white church members have the pick of the litter in choosing a single mate.
You know, its very difficult to have proper fellowship when the COGs give lip service to saying the church of God is a spiritual organism and we are all God’s people. But when situations come up they resort back to non white members being the “strangers”, and they themselves are “God’s people.” Even though Abraham lived as a stranger in the land.
You know God had a problem with what David did with Uriah the Hittite. He didn’t have a problem with Uriah being married to Bathsheba. In fact he remembered Uriah in both of the genealogy accounts of Christ mentioning that Bathsheba was first the wife of Uriah. It’s also funny how scholars and commentators attempt to change Uriah’s ethnic identity as they do in similar scenarios.
See most of your ministers were indoctrinated in WWCG or had positions from that organization. But the segregation policies of the 50’s and 60’s created a lack of black members and ministers in the church because they couldn’t attend Ambassador College unless they were already married. They didn’t understand that there is, “one law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you. “(Exodus 12:49)
You know the pride comes before the fall. And that’s what happened with Worldwide. You had a bunch of people over decades that believed that they were better than the “other people” in the same organization.
I too experienced racism from one of the splinter groups. There are scenarios where you can go to a singles event and there may be 40 or 50 singles and there may only be one female of your own race, and “the powers that be” only want to stay with your “own kind” when they preach that we all are God’s people. And if you are not interested or attracted to the only other single of your race that “the powers that be “ want you to choose, then you are the one with the problem. Meanwhile the single white church members have the pick of the litter in choosing a single mate.
You know, its very difficult to have proper fellowship when the COGs give lip service to saying the church of God is a spiritual organism and we are all God’s people. But when situations come up they resort back to non white members being the “strangers”, and they themselves are “God’s people.” Even though Abraham lived as a stranger in the land.
You know God had a problem with what David did with Uriah the Hittite. He didn’t have a problem with Uriah being married to Bathsheba. In fact he remembered Uriah in both of the genealogy accounts of Christ mentioning that Bathsheba was first the wife of Uriah. It’s also funny how scholars and commentators attempt to change Uriah’s ethnic identity as they do in similar scenarios.
See most of your ministers were indoctrinated in WWCG or had positions from that organization. But the segregation policies of the 50’s and 60’s created a lack of black members and ministers in the church because they couldn’t attend Ambassador College unless they were already married. They didn’t understand that there is, “one law shall be for the native-born and for the stranger who dwells among you. “(Exodus 12:49)
You know the pride comes before the fall. And that’s what happened with Worldwide. You had a bunch of people over decades that believed that they were better than the “other people” in the same organization. The lack of fairness is based on race. The tribalism "(racism)" was in the literature in the WWCG, but the smoke screen is that they carried those same views over to the splinter groups while they omitted them from their newly written literature. Like some kind of unwritten rules. Deception
About the half White, half Asian. It's more on your physical attributes, whether you look more Asian or White or Black. If you look more Asian, you marry an Asian although you may be half White. I have Italian German Chinese Filipino roots but I look very Filipino, therefore my husband ought to be Filipino or Asian.
@Alles
Why do you have to marry your race? What Bible verses would you use to support this belief? (Honest question, not trying to be mean or anything)
Perhaps I may cite Moses : Miriam and Aaron made issue of the deed but God actually defended Moses, it may be because he already was done with the intermarrying before being called to lead Israel, and the case of Nehemiah cant remember which chapter, i believe it may have much to do with preventing influencing Israel to Idolatry and possibly maintaining the Gene Pool in its healthiest original form. I am nobody in the Church - cant even recite verses ;) Also I already left PCG.
I remember reading some polls at some point (I can no longer remember the source) that the world over, people largely prefer to marry within their own race. It seems to me that it's only in the 'enlightened' Western culture where we've conflated this preference with 'racism'. Often times marrying within your race is more about cultural compatibility. I was friends with a kid growing up who was half black and half white. He had a constant internal conflict about which race he identified with.
My personal belief is that each of the races are beautiful in their distinctness. Our differences are what make us interesting.
Correct, most people around the world live in a homogenous society or country marry within their race. But when considering America, there are millions of people who live in America making it a heterogenous country with Latinos, Asians Caucasians, Native Americans and people from African descent. And people intermingle within America and those things will occur.
The word “white” is lazy. It’s lazy because, America became a European melting pot. That is: Germans (Assyrians?) immigrated to America in the 1700’s and even after the second wold war, the Italians immigrated from the 1880’s to the 1920s, the Irish immigrated to America around that same time period, and of course the British descended people making up the majority. The French also came, thus declaring people simply white or sort of a European melting pot.
What I have heard a thousand times by many is: “Well an interracial relationship isn’t a sin, but it will be a tremendous challenge and have tremendous risks.” It’s a challenge because of the hatred.
That’s like saying, don’t keep the Saturday Sabbath because the whole rest of world will be keeping Sunday. And you’ll have tremendous challenges in this society. But this is one of the commandments.
Or, like saying, don’t keep that clean meats law, because the majority part of the world will be eating unclean and eating bacon and seafood. And you’ll have tremendous challenges when shopping for food and going out to eat when ordering. And this one of the statutes.
The sad thing is the that the leaders in the Church as mention before love referencing Moses, Joseph, Solomon and many more. But they would have a problem with the ethnicity of their wives like Miriam and Aaron did. They are the ones that want to go back thousands of years and think that there’s this perfect genealogy. But I digress.
I danced with a young lady at PCG summer camp in Australia many years ago. 17-20 years ago.
Her last name was Antonio. She was from the Philippines and was at camp with her sister. Alex Harrison said we become too close and He separated us at camp. He said I should not communicate with her via letters back to the Philippines. After camp ended I never heard back from her ever again. Little did Alex know I was of Aboriginal descent. She was not like the Australian Girls at the time. I think her name was Grace or her sister's name.
Is she still in the Church? I would like to know what happened to her family.
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