IT ISN’T INFORMATION THAT IDENTIFIES YOU AS A CHRISTIAN!
By
Lonnie Hendrix/Miller Jones
Anyone who has ever been a part of one of the Armstrong Churches of God will immediately recognize this ice breaker question when introduced to others within the culture: “How did you first learn/hear about THE TRUTH?” And we all understood exactly what that question suggested about what identified someone as a “TRUE” Christian (as opposed to all of those deluded “so-called” Christians who adhered to a more traditional understanding of what it meant to be identified as a follower of Jesus Christ). You see, for Armstrongites, a “TRUE” Christian was distinguished by his/her ability to understand and accept the teachings of Herbert Armstrong. The acceptance of this “TRUTH” was the proof/evidence that the Holy Spirit was working with you or dwelling within you! Folks who didn’t understand or accept those teachings simply weren’t being “called” or guided by the Holy Spirit!
Never mind that Christ clearly stated that it was the presence of an EMOTION that would identify his followers – NOT the understanding or acceptance of some package of doctrines! We read in the Gospel of John that Christ told his disciples:
“So now I am giving you a new commandment: Love each other. Just as I have loved you, you should love each other. Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples.” (John 13:34-35, NLT throughout, unless otherwise specified) So, according to Christ, it was this love for each other that would mark them as his disciples. Notice too, the ONLY understanding that he ever mentioned in this regard was the understanding that HE was the Messiah, the Christ! (Matthew 16:16-18)
Interestingly, the Apostle Paul also identified the presence of LOVE as being much more important than the depth of someone’s understanding. He wrote to the saints of Corinth:
“If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of God’s secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didn’t love others, I would be nothing.” (I Corinthians 13:2)
He went on to say:
“Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture! But when the time of perfection comes, these partial things will become useless…Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely. Three things will last forever—faith, hope, and love—and the greatest of these is love.” (I Corinthians 13:12-13)
Moreover, the Apostle Paul also wrote to the saints of Galatia about the fruits or evidence that would characterize those who had God’s Spirit dwelling within them. He said:
“the Holy Spirit produces this kind of fruit in our lives: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control.” (Galatians 5:22-23)
Notice, please, that knowledge or understanding didn’t even make the list!
Likewise, in the first epistle of John, we read:
“If anyone claims, ‘I am living in the light,’ but hates a fellow believer, that person is still living in darkness. Anyone who loves a fellow believer is living in the light and does not cause others to stumble. But anyone who hates a fellow believer is still living and walking in darkness. Such a person does not know the way to go, having been blinded by the darkness.” (I John 2:9-11)
A little later, we also read:
“If we love our brothers and sisters who are believers, it proves that we have passed from death to life. But a person who has no love is still dead. Anyone who hates another brother or sister is really a murderer at heart. And you know that murderers don’t have eternal life within them. We know what real love is because Jesus gave up his life for us. So, we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters. If someone has enough money to live well and sees a brother or sister in need but shows no compassion—how can God’s love be in that person? Dear children, let’s not merely say that we love each other; let us show the truth by our actions. Our actions will show that we belong to the truth, so we will be confident when we stand before God.” (I John 3:14-19)
So where did this fixation with spiritual understanding originate? The short answer is: “in the mind of Herbert Armstrong!” The longer answer is found in Mr. Armstrong’s interpretation of a passage from Paul’s first letter to the saints of Corinth. According to Herbert, the prooftext for this notion about the understanding of certain things being the thing that identifies one as a Christian is found in the second chapter. We read there:
“But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.” (Verses 9-16, KJV)
Laying aside Herbert’s musings, let’s look at the context of these remarks and examine what kind of deep knowledge is imparted to a person by the presence of God’s Spirit. And both of those things are accomplished by simply reading the eight verses which precede Herbert’s favorites (quoted above). Paul wrote:
“And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. For I determined not to know anything among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.” (I Corinthians 2:1-8, KJV)
So, we see that this information which the Spirit imparts to the human mind involves “Jesus Christ, and him crucified.” Which, of course, is consistent with what Christ revealed to his disciples about who he was, why he came to this earth, and what that meant for us (hint – salvation)!
And we should make one additional point about THE TRUTH before we close. Jesus Christ once told Thomas: “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) So, we see that Jesus Christ is the ultimate manifestation of God’s TRUTH!
In other words, there is absolutely NO suggestion in this scripture that the understanding and acceptance of a package of teachings (more particularly, those of Herbert Armstrong) are indicative of one’s status as a “REAL” Christian! Christ once told his disciples:
“Beware of false prophets who come disguised as harmless sheep but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit, and a bad tree produces bad fruit. A good tree can’t produce bad fruit, and a bad tree can’t produce good fruit. So, every tree that does not produce good fruit is chopped down and thrown into the fire. Yes, just as you can identify a tree by its fruit, so you can identify people by their actions.” (Matthew 7:15-20)
What kind of fruit has the Armstrong Church of God tree produced? Do we see evidence that the members of those churches love each other? Do we see evidence of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control among these folks?
Judging whether someone belongs to God or not is above my pay grade. Maybe that’s why Christ insisted that his followers NOT judge each other? After all, who are we to judge another man’s servant? Moreover, Christ did give his followers the Parable of the wheat and tares and suggested that it would be the job of his workers (angels) to separate the weeds (false Christians) from the grain (the folks who were really his) at the end of the age! Hence, I would say that Scripture clearly refutes the notion that spiritual understanding is the hallmark of a “TRUE” Christian. What do you think?
20 comments:
The fact that these groups are dying a slow steady death, unknown and unseen by the vast number of humanity, is evidence enough that the fruits as Paul and his fellow disciples of Jesus Christ alluded too time and again, are sadly missing.
Armstrongism has missed the mark. And its coming demise is self evident.
The word love in the bible is a verb, ie, action. Love means satisfying peoples mental and physical needs.
Warm fussy feeling of "love" towards others, without action is useless.
"Never mind that Christ clearly stated that it was the presence of an EMOTION that would identify his followers – NOT the understanding or acceptance of some package of doctrines!"
Umm, the bible says "love" is something that you do, not something that you "feel". I've always known that you didn't understand and this is more proof. You are nothing more than a protestant, accepting all sorts of heresy and trying to insert it into the Church. So, go ahead with your touchy-feely nonsense. The day is coming when you will be able to understand the truth.
Herbert Armstrong loved to make fun of "warm fuzzy feelings," but I do agree that love demands action. We see that in how Paul defined love for the saints at Corinth. He wrote: "Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance." Love is not ethereal nothingness - it is a real and tangible thing. It is manifested in us when we exhibit those fruits of the Spirit which Paul wrote to the Galatians about, and it has NOTHING to do with understanding whether God is one entity, or two, or three or what happens when we die. While it would certainly be appropriate to characterize such understandings as a blessing, the fact remains that such understanding is NOT the measure of whether or not you are a Christian! Period - Full stop!
From an official document for a COGWA bible class given in Austin some years ago it states:
"The Bible was written for all people. Those called by God have been given understanding of His great plan."
So, COGWA is saying if you do not understand this great plan you are not called. You may objectively display the fruit of the Spirit and have fruits of repentance and believe in and subordinate yourself to the Lord, but COGWA ministers will and have said, you are not known of God.
This great plan is very important apparently. This document then states: "(The plan of God) involves a divine calling by God the Father" and that "this Plan of salvation is revealed through the Annual Holy Days."
There you have it. You are not a called Christian if you do not understand that the Holy Days reveal God's Plan.
This makes sense for COGWA because simply observing the Sabbath and Holy Days is done by perhaps millions of people: Messianic Jews, some Adventists, some Hebrew roots people, etc.
This extra information is what assures that you are called of God. Yes, this simple information. Belief and trust in the Lord is not enough, even observing the days is not enough. You must possess the information that reveals those days reveal God's Plan in order to be called of God.
As a side note, the paper also states that all beliefs are found and supported in the Bible. You will not find in the Bible that the Holy Days reveal God's Plan. You simply will not. This apparently most important doctrine was the creation of Herbert Armstrong and what he called revealed truth.
Miller:
I respect your heartfelt, incisive and Biblical analysis of the importance of love in defining those who walk in The Way. Christianity, I believe, is best viewed wholistically. It is important to preserve synergies even in the treatment of a distinct topic. Your argument that HWA elevated knowledge or understanding and diminished the role of love has empirical support in the lives of most of us who are ex-Armstrongists.
I do believe in the epistemological statement of Jesus when he said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." Knowledge and understanding have their place. Christianity, in fact, is a "package of doctrines" and up to some threshold, dependent on time and place, the package must be understood. But the package of doctrines does not supplant the actualized praxis that it defines. That would be like adulating a recipe instead of enjoying the cookies.
So, in my view your point is well taken but is tempered by the fact that love exists in synergy with understanding. To eliminate or limit the role of understanding is to advocate soteriological Inclusivism - which, as I understand, about half of mainstream Christians believe to be true. So, your viewpoint is not atypical. I do not believe that the same understanding is required of all Christians under all circumstances. There is diversity in Christianity now and has been throughout history. The early church in Rome compared to the First Century Jerusalem church come to mind. But there are certain essentials that were common knowledge. I believe there have been devout and heroic Christians in early church history who accepted at face value all of the anthropomorphic language about God used in the Old Testament. In their circumstances anthropomorphism was a minor issue - the big issue was staying alive in the Roman Empire. But they did understand grace. So, I do not believe that understanding as an isolate is the hallmark of a true Christian, but I believe it enters into the necessary synergism the amounts to the Christian life.
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Love is a word that has been twisted and evolved in todays culture. Scripture says that these are the fruits of the Spirit...
The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…”
Earl,
Thanks for contributing that comment about COGWA's perspective on this topic. I think that his helps to demonstrate just how pervasive this notion is within Armstrongism.
Neo,
Herbert Armstrong could not have focused so much energy and attention on the importance of doctrine had not Catholics and Protestants already done so. As you know, over the centuries following the time of Christ and his apostles, the Christian community developed a very complex philosophical and theological corpus - scholars often building on the work and thinking of their predecessors. Hence, it is not unreasonable to suggest that - if we could somehow resurrect those First Century Christians, we would have to explain a great deal of information to them before we could get them to offer us an intelligent opinion or stance on the various doctrinal positions extant within the Christian community of today.
As you suggested in your commentary, there is a very basic level of understanding that is required of a Christian. As I suggested in this post, I believe that basic understanding encompasses what Christ indicated that it was - an understanding that he is the Messiah, the Son of God, our Savior. If we go very much beyond that, we are in grave danger of getting too far out into the weeds (as too many Christians have done before us). That path leads to argumentation, discord, division, hatred, and feelings of superiority. I've said it before: It's too bad that the Ethiopian eunuch didn't have the opportunity or time to read Augustine's discourses or Herbert Armstrong's booklets prior to his baptism!
We've talked about this before, you and me. At what point do heretical doctrinal views become disqualifying? While I don't pretend to know the precise answer to that question, I suspect that the further we get into the weeds, the greater the danger of reaching that point. What do you think?
Miller:
I believe I used this example before. Paul told the Galatians that if they believed they were justified by keeping the Law they were cut off from Christ and fallen from grace. And Christians are still debating faith and works today. So, Paul seemed to see the threshold fairly far out in the weeds. But for most of us, we just need to take Paul at his word without understanding the complex theological relationships that led him to the conclusion. That would be not so far out in the weeds.
I think the placement of the threshold varies according to person, time and place with any judgement being God's. I just discovered recently that I had an erroneous Armstrongist belief about a major Christian dogma. You don't know what you don't know.
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Would actions be indicative of emotion?
Neo,
As you pointed out in your initial remarks on this topic, there has always been a diverse body of opinions relative to doctrinal issues within the Christian community. That is why Paul wrote to the Ephesians: "Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. Their responsibility is to equip God’s people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ. This will continue until we all come to such unity in our faith and knowledge of God’s Son that we will be mature in the Lord, measuring up to the full and complete standard of Christ. Then we will no longer be immature like children. We won’t be tossed and blown about by every wind of new teaching. We will not be influenced when people try to trick us with lies so clever they sound like the truth. Instead, we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body, the church. He makes the whole body fit together perfectly. As each part does its own special work, it helps the other parts grow, so that the whole body is healthy and growing and full of love." Ephesians 4:11-16
Implicit in these remarks is the fact that complete unanimity in faith and understanding had not yet been achieved within the Church. Indeed, his remarks suggest that Paul believed this growth in faith, knowledge, and spiritual maturity would continue throughout the life of the individual convert and the ekklesia as a whole. In fact, it is apparent that Paul believed that this was the very reason for which Christ had given these gifts to his Church - to facilitate this growth/maturation.
Likewise, after talking about the ridicule of scoffers and the difficulty that some folks experienced in understanding Paul's writings, the author of the Second Epistle of Peter wrote: "You already know these things, dear friends. So be on guard; then you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing. Rather, you must grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." II Peter 3:17-18 Once again, the author appears to anticipate a lifelong process of learning and growth.
This point is also underscored by several instances recorded in the Acts of the Apostles. I mentioned already the story of the Ethiopian Eunuch, and how he was baptized after a relatively brief explanation of how a passage from Isaiah related to Jesus Christ (Acts 8:26-40). In other words, his initial understanding must have been fairly sparse. We also find in that book the narrative about how Aquila and Priscilla had to take Apollos aside and explain the way of God more accurately to him (Acts 18:24-16). Likewise, we have the instance where some converts hadn't even heard about the Holy Spirit or Christ's baptism! (Acts 19:1-7) In other words, there are numerous instances in Scripture that make very clear that Christians often began their spiritual journeys with a very wide range of understandings, and it was understood by everyone that a better/deeper understanding would come with time and sincere pursuit.
(continued)
As for Paul's letter to the Galatians, it is clear that the apostle was angry and alarmed at the situation which had developed among these people. It is also apparent that this stemmed at least in part from the fact that he felt that he had expended so much care and effort into bringing them to Christ. We must remember that Paul had struggled against these Christian legalists for years, and it must have been infuriating to see his life's work threatened by their heretical teachings. Paul sought to make absolutely clear to "his" people that their salvation was accomplished through Jesus Christ and the grace that was available to them through him. He sought to underscore that any and all of their efforts to keep the laws outlined in the Torah would NOT accomplish that for them. In other words, he felt that the failure of some of them to understand this point would shipwreck their faith.
He wrote to them: "Before you Gentiles knew God, you were slaves to so-called gods that do not even exist. So now that you know God (or should I say, now that God knows you), why do you want to go back again and become slaves once more to the weak and useless spiritual principles of this world? You are trying to earn favor with God by observing certain days or months or seasons or years. I fear for you. Perhaps all my hard work with you was for nothing. Dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to live as I do in freedom from these things, for I have become like you Gentiles—free from those laws." (Galatians 4:8-12) He continued: "Oh, my dear children! I feel as if I’m going through labor pains for you again, and they will continue until Christ is fully developed in your lives." (Verse 19)
This is the context for what follows in chapter 5: "So Christ has truly set us free. Now make sure that you stay free, and don’t get tied up again in slavery to the law. Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace." (Verses 1-4) So, yes Paul was very concerned about the understanding of folks whom he felt should have moved well beyond this issue in their spiritual journey. It is clear that he saw this as the opposite of progress - that he viewed them as going backward. For him, THIS presented an existential threat to their Christian journey.
Bottom line, I agree with you that there is a foundational understanding for Christians. However, I still believe that starting point/foundation is in the acknowledgement of Jesus as Messiah, Son of God, Savior - as Christ indicated when he asked Peter who he thought that he was. I also agree that this is a very individual exercise - God knows what's in our hearts/minds. God knows if we are sincere, and he knows both what we comprehend, and what we don't yet understand.
Not that WWCG had all truth, but people did learn to heed aspects of Yehovah’s word that wasn’t taught in mainstream churches. We should not overlook these words, “ My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Since you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being My priest. Since you have forgotten the Law of your God, I also will forget your children.” Hosea 4:6
Miller:
The Elephant in the Room: A group of theologians were once having a discussion at a conference about Christianity. The question under consideration was, what makes Christianity different from other religions? After some discussion and no agreement, C.S. Lewis walked late into the room and was given the question and he immediately replied that the answer was simple, that Grace is what differentiated Christianity from other religions. (I wrote this from memory and the actual details may be a little different.)
Evangelicals believe that if a putatively Christian religion asserts that works are a causation of salvation that the people who follow this religion are lost to salvation (Gal 5:4). Armstrongists have a very limited and ineffectual concept of grace. They also incorporate works into their soteriological formula at the point of repentance and through the concept of "qualifying for the Kingdom." Can an organization misunderstand salvation so badly and still expect to be thought of as Christian and still believe they are on the road to salvation?
This seems to be the point where the issue of the importance of knowledge and understanding becomes binding. The knowledge of "by faith through grace" seems to be one of those dogmas that must be understood. This also suggests that people who are called by God and find themselves embedded in an Armstrongist church will eventually outgrow the Armstrongist theology.
It is not my place to judge someone's prospects for salvation, but the fact is that many of us contribute to this blog in the hopes that something we write may bring someone to their senses and they will re-direct to Christianity. The subtle implication is that people need to be rescued. The house is on fire, and they just have not realized it yet. Though knowledge for salvation may not be expansive in scope, it is profoundly deep in those areas where it is necessary.
Note: I am not here to spitefully wave a banner of loss of salvation in the faces of Armstrongists. I am a Trinitarian Universalist and believe that everyone will be saved ultimately.
Neo,
I would say that the thing that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions is Jesus Christ, and the salvation that is available to us through him. To be clear, I agree with you that we are saved through grace, NOT by obeying the Law! Unfortunately, some folks do NOT fully understand that distinction, and some folks have gone so far down the road of legalism that I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Finally, I continue to reject the notion that Christian's can be identified by the information they possess (e.g., some of the folks who understand that we are saved through grace have interpreted that to mean that they have a license to sin).
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix, Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 8:56:00 AM PDT, said:
"...Neo,
I would say that the thing that distinguishes Christianity from all other religions is Jesus Christ, and the salvation that is available to us through him. To be clear, I agree with you that we are saved through grace, NOT by obeying the Law! Unfortunately, some folks do NOT fully understand that distinction, and some folks have gone so far down the road of legalism that I wouldn't want to be in their shoes. Finally, I continue to reject the notion that Christian's can be identified by the information they possess (e.g., some of the folks who understand that we are saved through grace have interpreted that to mean that they have a license to sin)...."
******
That was a very interesting response, which I would summarize as:
Once saved, always saved, but without lasciviousness
But, is it: "Once saved, always saved, but without lasciviousness?"
Time will tell...
John
John,
That was an interesting response to my response to Neo! I would say that once we are saved, we are saved. And, although my current understanding leans toward a majority of humanity eventually being saved, I am NOT a Universalist - like Neo. I think that there is simply too much evidence in Scripture that it is possible for an individual Chistian to shipwreck their faith. For a little insight into my perspective, think of someone drowning out in the ocean, and a boat comes along and pulls them up out of the water into the boat. From that moment, the drowning person has been rescued and saved - even before reaching land. However, I also believe that it is possible (free will) for that person to stand up in the boat and jump back into the water! Once again, I don't think that scenario is very likely, but I think Scripture and logic dictate that this is a possibility. Does that make any sense?
The psychological damage done by HWA seems to be irreparable in some people.
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix, Thursday, March 17, 2022 at 4:44:00 PM PDT, said:
"...John,…
…For a little insight into my perspective, think of someone drowning out in the ocean, and a boat comes along and pulls them up out of the water into the boat. From that moment, the drowning person has been rescued and saved - even before reaching land. However, I also believe that it is possible (free will) for that person to stand up in the boat and jump back into the water! Once again, I don't think that scenario is very likely, but I think Scripture and logic dictate that this is a possibility. Does that make any sense?
******
That was an interesting thought, since in a sense all human beings are drowning in Satan's evil world and people are unable, of and by themselves, to direct their own steps (Jer 10:23). Now, if that guy had free will and jumped back overboard: then, that would be stupid and the person would probably not be in his "right mind," because that would be dumb to do. God really has good news, so much better than most can imagine, but we've all got to live out our lives striving to do the best we can with whatever we have.
What makes more sense to me in how I understand God's Plan of Salvation is this:
We know that anyone God is going to work with has to be dragged (John 6:44 draw means drag), because nobody wants to come to God, and once God begins something within someone, especially in regards to salvation, God will finish or complete it (Phil 1:6), and if He doesn't, then He lied to us. God doesn't lie. The principalities, Satan and his angels, lie to us.
So, using the boat analogy it appears that all human beings are out there doing their own thing, floating around in an ocean like corks or like fish. Let's use fish.
God, by the power of His Spirit, works through Jesus Christ (I Cor 8:6). God has a fishing pole and line and a hook. He doesn't even bother to bait the hook, because he knows that no fish (James 4:5; 2 Tim 2:26; I John 3:8, etc.) wants to get into His boat (and be saved) and won't take His bait. God knows He must drag. He already has names written down in the Lamb's Book of Life, so when it's time He sees the fish He wants to get into the boat, throws his line out and snags the fish He wants. Of course, the fish will do all sorts of things to struggle, fight, hide in weeds, behind logs, rocks, whatever, bouys, etc. But, God has an unbreakable string and He just keeps on reeling, and eventually He pulls you into the boat even if it is dragging its fins in the water (like leaving marks in the sand from the heels of our shoes as we strive not to be dragged). Done deal!
What part did the fish have? What part do we have? If we had any part in this it would be this: we sin; we die and remain dead forever, and that would apply to all with one exception and that is Jesus Christ, and not a Doug Winnail (pick any hireling name from the former WCG). A day will come when we all will thank God (Isaiah 64:8) for all that He did to save us, and that we had no part b/c we all would have failed.
Now, I guess that would answer your question of: "Does that make any sense?" But, I will say a little more and end.
The fish has no choice, although you want to give him free will, which most people believe the same thing.
From God's perspective you will be given eternal life either in the first or 2nd resurrection (John 6:44 & 12:32). Without His Spirit you will not, cannot go God's way (Deut 29:4) as has been proved with the example of ancient Israel. God does have unconditional love for all human beings, but not for Satan and his angels which were made to be destroyed. We are learning to hate evil: started in the Garden of Eden.
There is a lot to the picture of God's Plan of Salvation to save all humanity (Matthew 25:34) and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels (Matthew 25:41, 46) and there are all sorts of scriptures one can apply.
Have a delightful Sabbath.
John
Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix, Thursday, March 17, 2022,
I was thinking if we put our scenarios aside and consider scripture as provided by Jesus Christ we have something that is very similar:
Matthew 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Could that be part of the simplicity of Christ?
Time will tell...
John
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