A reader here made this comment:
Only problem, David Pack is not a prophet and those verses cannot apply to him. He is an apostle and many of God's apostles have got the timing of Christ's coming wrong but that doesn't make them false. Paul , Peter and John all taught Christ was coming in their time but they were almost 2,000 years off. David Pack is still the 7th messenger (not prophet) of the last era of the church. His messages are inspired by God for a prophetic reason, the rise of scoffers who must come first (2 Peter 3:3-4)...
The reader was referring this:
What the Bible says about all Church of God prophets
Deuteronomy 18:20
20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, is to be put to death.”
Ezekiel 13:9
9 My hand will be against the prophets who see false visions and utter lying divinations. They will not belong to the council of my people or be listed in the records of Israel, nor will they enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Sovereign LORD.
Jeremiah 14:14
14 Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
Jeremiah 23:16
Jeremiah 14:14
14 Then the LORD said to me, “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I have not sent them or appointed them or spoken to them. They are prophesying to you false visions, divinations, idolatries and the delusions of their own minds.
Jeremiah 23:16
16 This is what the LORD Almighty says: “Do not listen to what the prophets are prophesying to you; they fill you with false hopes. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD.
Luke 6:26
26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Matthew 24:24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
II Peter 3:14-18
Luke 6:26
26 Woe to you when everyone speaks well of you, for that is how their ancestors treated the false prophets.
Matthew 24:24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
II Peter 3:14-18
14 So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him.
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
John 4:1-6
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.
16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
17 Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.
18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.
John 4:1-6
1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.
4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
24 comments:
The comments from the reader sound like our old friend TC-albeit with punctuation. Dave himself has taught that he is an apostle and as such automatically holds all lower offices. So for the reader/commenter to say he is not a prophet is directly at odds with what Pack teaches.
And don't even get me started on the "scoffers must come first" observation. That is exactly what a false prophet says when they fail to produce the expected result! I could have seen that coming and I am most definitely not a prophet. These poor people have got to get the incessant false teachings out of their thinking and just read their own bibles for themselves. No minister's bipolar, unbiblical voice in the back of their mind. Just their own God given common sense.
Not a prophet but the messages are for a prophetic reason? Better boil the kool-aid before drinking it. An apostle is one who is sent. The answer to the question is yes if he was sent by someone other than Jesus Christ.
David C. Pack: FAKE and FALSE
Dave Pack is a FAKE Minister who became a FALSE Apostle, FALSE Joshua the High Priest, FALSE Elijah the Prophet, FALSE “That Prophet,” and is working on becoming a FALSE Messiah. Then all that will be left for him to do is to become a FALSE God.
Dave Pack once reasoned around, and around and around, until his listeners were probably dizzy, that being wrong is okay if you are an apostle. You can come up with all the wrong prophetic date guesses that you want to and it is all okay as long as you are an apostle and not just a prophet, because an apostle is so much more than just a prophet. Being an apostle apparently makes it okay for you to be wrong about everything, especially about prophetic date guesses.
This whole situation illustrates a key feature of the COG hierarchies: the mere exposure of lies does nothing to end the lies.
It fits perfectly with Hans Christian Andersen's "The Emperor's New Clothes," down to the lesser known part of the story. The well-known part is that crooks scam the emperor of a wealthy city into buying an imaginary suit of clothes. The crooks tell the emperor that the fabric is invisible to anyone who was either stupid or unfit for his position. The emperor can't see the nonexistent fabric, but he says that he can for fear of appearing stupid; his ministers do the same. When the crooks report that the suit is finished, they pretend to dress the emperor in a suit of clothes. The emperor then goes on a procession through the capital showing off his new “clothes.” During the course of the procession, a child yells, “But he has nothing on!” The crowd realizes the child is telling the truth.
The often forgotten part of the story is that the truth that the child has yelled out makes no difference. Neither the emperor nor the nobles pay any attention to it. The emperor holds his head high and continues the procession. The charade continues. Lies that support the power structure of a COG hierarchy have precedence over truths that put the power structure in question. The members and ministers of the COG have the option of walking away, but until they stop swallowing the red pill, they will stay seated, enabling the emperor to continue the charade. They need to listen to the child who is telling them the truth.
So this is the easy out that RCG members give Dave. Just changing the designation of who he is no longer makes him culpable for his lies. No wonder they can sit there week after week being lied to. At some point in the future, even if it is 2,000 years from now he will be right. No wonder Armstrongism is such a mess.
Welcome back, TC and pay attention to comments here, and do not dress yourself on "The Emperor's New Clothes, referred by annon 11:48. Like somebody said, you can't go into salvation, hanging on Dave Pack's co-tail (maybe mispelled?). You have to procure your own salvation. This from a former member of RCG, until 2020.
“Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.” ~ I John 4:1 (NKJV)
And the following mentioned by David Pack quite a few times
Deut 18:21-22
21- " And if you say in your heart, 'how we should know the word that the Lord has not spoken'? 22- “when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him."
Also pay attention to the complete list by Marc Cebrian.
59% of evangelical Christians believe Christ is going to return in their lifetime based off the 30% of the bible thats prophecy. Prophecy that is all very clearly written as a warning. You may not understand a lick of the exact details of it but if you read it you can see very clearly that Christ is coming and when he arrives hes gonna handle some serious business. Mainstream faith based churches wield this same story like a club every Sunday all across the world because if you read the book how can you miss it.
Point is......Christ coming back today tomorrow or the next day isnt even a COG thing and it makes no sense to me whatsoever that youd have to understand all prophecy perfectly or else be the anti christ. Setting short timetables for the biblical plan is what the actual apostles did like how is that not a bit of an example? Whats the alternative to just not make a stand on 30% of the bible and be like meh whatever and whenever and teach people the golden rule? Yeah I guess but that doesnt make you better maybe just smarter and a little less freaked all the time.
What makes these splinters unique is the heavyhanded alt right pharisaical teachings and the ethical and criminal aspects of the WWCG at the core root of the thing back in the day. I dont get why the prophecy is such a hot topic. All christians tend to use that part like a sword. Some people like DCP that sword has become pretty damn dull but what hes doing and why hes doing it does not make him unique whatsoever in the world of Christendom.
So, God is tricking Dave into setting false dates so that people can mock and scoff so God can have His own word fulfilled. Not a god I want to worship. God would then be lying to His only living apostle, embarrass him publicly, embarrass the entire church just trick the "mockers and scoffers" for RIGHTLY discerning the falsehood. But, oh wait, he is TRULY My servant and is TRULY an apostle, but you wouldn't really know that because he was tricked by Me. And I guess, so were you. Ha ha.
That type of logic hurts my brain.
Read just HWA's wiki page that describes his ministry from 1934 to 1975 and maybe this concept will make more sense. Spitting out wild speculative prophetic claims nonstop from the buildup to WW2 all the way thru Vietnam that in hindsight can only be described as buffoonery is literally the entire prophetic blueprint and "the apostle" whose role it is to share it. Like 90 years now this thing has been going on. The same blueprint that got DCP and Dennis back in the 60s ultimately got you and so many others too.
I wish I could get a copy of 1975 in Prophecy. Im sure one exists online somewhere. I think you should read it if you havent. If you do remind yourself that if the mindset of that book brought you in and that you didnt leave after then its a really easy leap to see whats happening today and understand it better too.
" Some people like DCP that sword has become pretty damn dull but what he's doing and why he's doing it does not make him unique whatsoever in the world of Christendom."
It's the how he's doing it and the personality disorder driving it that makes DCP particularly dangerous to himself and all that come in contact with him and RCG. I don't question the sincerity, though that might also be debatable, but searching through scripture to find himself and the twisting of unrelated scriptures as if they were related is numbing. DCP also is not well trained in theology and actual church history as well. Someone needs to introduce him to the New Testament.
Sundown, I have attended several mainstream Christian churches for decades and prophecy is rarely a topic, much less wielded as a club when it is. The very best bible teachers who know how to properly divide the Word of God rarely discuss prophecy in terms of future timing. They are wise and responsible enough to say the timing is in the Lord's hands; now let's make sure you are well and truly saved so that whenever He comes you are His already.
To me, to use prophecy (or any biblical subject) as a weapon of force, coercion or power is cruel at best and not going to lead anyone to salvation.
As Marc just said, I wouldn't want anything to do with a God like that. One of my very favorite scriptures is Matt. 9:13, which says "Go and learn the meaning of the words "It is mercy I desire and not sacrifice." Boy, that one convicts all the self righteous, "look what I do for God" types better than anything we could ever say. Prophecy matters, but love for Jesus matters more IMHO.
I have made the same point in the past in multiple comments about doubly blessed, almost arrested for Sabbath keeping Little Bobby Thiel. Is he a Prophet or a Pastor General (AKA Apostle)? He can't be both, yet he continues to try and fails at both. I have even described him as a double minded man unstable in all his ways because he has tried to be both and can't make up his mind which one it is that he is (James 1:8).
Little Bobby Thiel tried to convince the LCG and Rod Meredith that he had special knowledge that no one else had, and that he was a prophet. All of little Bobby Thiel's energy was focused on convincing the LCG that he was a prophet, when the LCG rejected him as a Prophet, ONLY THEN, did he switch gears and become a Pastor General/Church Overseer/Grand Poohbah/Apostle starting yet another Splinter Armstrong Church AFTER he struck out as a Prophet.
One of Little Bobby Thiel's first animations featuring the ever-popular Cartoon character Cartoon Bob dealt with Christian living, and I thought to myself "What does this Cartoon have to do with Prophecy?"
This entire discussion about Pack and whether he can he be a false Prophet when he is an Apostle applies equally to Little Bobby Thiel. EXCEPT, Little Bobby Thiel declared himself FIRST as a Prophet BEFORE he declared himself a Church Overseer (same as Pastor General in WCG tradition). Pack appears to have done the opposite.
A double minded Bobby Thiel is unstable in all his ways! (James 1:8)
Richard
Dave is a leader of a dangerous cult. A false apostle and is a danger to the public. I am a cog longtime member but this guy is way out there.
The operative word here is false. No matter whether a prophet or apostle. False. It means you don't have to listen to that person. Of course, part of being false is lying, insisting you are the real deal, and going all authoritarian, instead of allowing your actions to authenticate you so that people want to follow.
To me, Psalm 1:1 is applicable to these splinters. If your are a member, and scratch the Pharisaic surface, you are "walking in the council of the ungodly, standing in the way of sinners, and sitting in the seat of the scornful."
My mental health went through the roof once I stopped attending in the 1980s. They give you a mental cool-aid cocktail every Sabbath service that's designed to keep you passive, blindly obedience, and highly tolerant to emotional abuse. It's run along business lines rather than by biblical morality. They'll do and say anything to keep their members chained to their group, and maintain an iron grip on their minds.
To any member, I say look long and hard at you church. Forget the nice words from the pulpit, and just observe the minister and member behavior. It's mostly schoolyard bully behavior.
The bible instructs people to flee from "Babylon."
Is a prophet one who prophecies whether or not he claims the title prophet? HWA used this same excuse for his failed prophecies.
Imagine Dave Pack was your family physician. Every time you visit to review your blood test results he misinterpreted the findings. He said one time that an elevated white blood cell count wasn't a sign of an infection, but of pregnancy. And the elevated T4 had nothing to do with your thyroid gland, but it may indicate gout. There you are, staring at him, wondering where the hell he went to medical school. It wouldn't be long before you found another doctor. And yet, members of the RCG just sit there and listen to this nonsense from the pulpit.
"I wish I could get a copy of 1975 in Prophecy."
https://www.hwalibrary.com/cgi-bin/get/hwa.cgi?action=getbklet&InfoID=1325346356
Even the OT prophets mucked up big time
As the Republican white nationalist insurgency continues to play out in the backgrounds of all of our lives, I would expect to see these ACOGS, especially the more extreme ones like RCG, gain traction and exhibit growth. Yet the theology fails to appeal even to the extreme MAGA-infected minds of the insurgents. If anything, we see an occasional one-way street. The alt-right somehow resonates with such individuals as Mark Armstrong and Bill Watson, but their churches do not appeal to the alt-right.
Revelation 2:2 I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are APOSTLES and are NOT, and have found them LIARS;
Just downloaded and read the above referenced booklet aptly titled 1975 in Prophecy. A few things stood out:
1) He clearly had a love affair with the exclamation point!!
2) That little booklet did NOT AGE WELL
3) He had no idea how to rightly divide the Word, or the identity of Israel (Israel is Israel....I know, shocking!!), nor did he understand who the gentiles are. He lumped Israel and the Jews in with the gentile nations and liberally applied prophecy across the board. BI rearing its ugly and lying head again.
4) Clearly obsessed with instilling fear and paranoia, tactics he learned from communism, while decrying communism at the same time. Go figure. Must have been horrifying growing up in this cult. God bless the survivors.
Well, Herbie, 1975 called and they want their hydrogen bomb dropping, push button car windows back. Yikes. It was an embarrassment of riches to those who yearn for an end to Armstrongism and just a plain embarrassment to HWA. No wonder they yanked that one off the shelves.
This reader's comment falls flat on its face in many ways. If we just compare the apostle Dave Pack to the apostle Paul, it becomes clear what an apostle would be teaching in the last days and for what reason they would be preaching it.
In 2 Tim. 4:1-4, Paul knowing his final days were at hand and still believing the end was near, gave Timothy the evangelist a charge. It was so important, he prefaced what he was going to say as coming from both God and Jesus Christ and that judgment was involved concerning what was heard and what people would do concerning what they wanted to hear.
For those in the RCG who don't READ their bibles here goes. "Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."
No word here from the apostle Paul about Timothy creating false narratives to fulfill the biblical prediction of scoffers in the last days. On the contrary, Paul says to preach the word, preach doctrine and preach the truth.
How important is it - the truth? Jesus Christ will judge the living and dead at his appearing and his kingdom.
So concerning 2 Tim. 4:3-4, who is the teacher of fables, the apostle Paul or the apostle Pack?
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