I will say plainly that no minister or pastor in any of the splits, splinters or slivers of the Church of God is qualified to actually be a legitimate minister or pastor in any church on Earth. They know next to nothing about the origin, authors, history of, intent, problems with, politics, genres and difficulties in and with the scriptures. They certainly have no skills in dealing with the real life issues and needs of human beings in a faith community. I use the term "Faith Community" loosely.
Whether it is Gerald Flurry and Family, Dave Pack and his enabling ministry, Ron Weinland and himself or Bob Thiel and his double portioned self, NONE of these men or their elders are qualified to know enough about the Bible to accurately teach the scriptures.
Their lack of proper training is why we have the lunacy we have in a Gerald Flurry, Dave Pack, Ron Weinland or Robert Thiel and MANY OTHERS who claim theological brilliance and calling.
I will simply say that as well that an Ambassador College "degree" in theology was worthless and would be scorned by any legitimate theological school. A class in the Harmony of the Gospels, The Genesis Flood, questionable world history, Old Testament Survey, a good read and clueless commentary on the Epistles of Paul and booklets published by the WCG do not a theological education make. Throwing in speech classes based on the Spokesman Club Manuel do not a trained speaker maker either. They certainly do not an educated clergy make to this day.
I recently forced myself to listen to a number of Feast Sermons. Some by men I knew and one in particular and his son who I knew very well and who informed the Church I pastored, after I was transferred that I was the worst thing that ever happened to the _____________ Church. This was mostly because I was not a sheriff as he was and did not force people to do what was neither necessary nor expedient for the long-term mental health and attitude of the congregation. Both are terrible speakers and know next to nothing about the Book they pretend to know so much about. They are typical of most all the Church of God elders and ministry.
Dave Pack is a special kind of ignorant, but we knew that...
The vast majority of the Church of God ministry simply knows little about what they speak of with such authority.
This is a brief rundown on a typical theological education in ministry, in this case, as offered by the Westminster Theological Seminary in their Academic Catalog.
This is just a small part of the program and NO I DO NOT EXPECT YOU TO READ ALL THIS. Just to see the topics listed and the goals of such teaching should suffice to show how precious little a theological education the Elders, Ministers and Pastors have, much less the Apostles, Watchers, Elijah's and Zerrubbabel's in the COG's actually have. It is why I term them and so many "Mere Bible Readers".
From the West Minister Theological Seminary Academic Catalog
Church History It has been well said that people make history, but they do not make the history that they choose. All human beings act in particular times, in particular places, and for a variety of different reasons. The aim of the Church History department is to teach students to understand the way in which human action is shaped by historical, social, economic, cultural, and theological concerns; and by so doing to allow the students to understand better their own positions as those who act in context. Though we live in an anti-historical age, the Church History department is committed to helping students realize the liberating importance of having a solid grasp of those historical trajectories which shape, often in hidden ways, the life of the church in the present. To that end, the Church History curriculum enables students:
● To recognize the ambiguities and complexities of human history
● To examine themselves in the light of the past
● To engage with an epistemologically self-conscious historical methodology
● To see how the church’s testimony to Christ has been preserved and articulated through the ages
● To recognize turning points in the history of the church
● To identify major types and paradigms of Christian vision in societies past and present
● To be well acquainted with the Reformed heritage ● To recognize global patterns in the spread of the gospel through missions
● To cultivate modesty with regard to their own times and cultures by setting these within the perspective of the great sweep of church history
● To be inspired by what they learn to proclaim God’s grace to today’s world
Church History Master's Level Courses CH 141 History of Christianity I Purpose: ·
To identify key personalities, events, and doctrines within their particular cultural, social, and political contexts of the Ancient and Medieval Church.
· To summarize major movements and ideas of the Ancient and Medieval church, with special attention on the development of the Reformed tradition.
· To distinguish between varying theological traditions as formed in the Ancient church and developing into the Medieval period.
· To demonstrate contemporary applications of Ancient and Medieval church history, such as deepening our developing the creeds and councils in an effort to understand Scripture more faithfully and embolden believers by testimonies of God’s faithfulness. Topics covered will be drawn from the early Ancient church through the Medieval church. Students will be introduced to major movements and personalities of church history while gaining first hand exposure to primary source material to help articulate historical developments of theology. Online (September and March terms), three hours. Restrictions: Only available to MAC and MATS students.
CH 151 History of Christianity II Purpose: ·
To identify key personalities, events, and doctrines within their particular cultural, social, and political contexts of the Reformation and Modern Church.
· To summarize major movements and ideas of the Reformation and modern church, with special attention on the development of the Reformed tradition.
· To distinguish between varying theological traditions as formed in the Reformation and developing into the modern period.
· To demonstrate contemporary applications of Reformation and Modern church history, such as deepening our understanding of Scripture and emboldening believers by testimonies of God’s faithfulness. Topics covered will be drawn from the Reformation through the modern world.
Students will be introduced to major movements and personalities of church history while gaining first hand exposure to primary source material to help articulate historical developments of theology. Online (September and March terms), three hours. Restrictions: Only available to MAC and MATS students. CH 211
The Ancient Church Purpose:
· To introduce students to the major events, personalities, and ideas which shaped the life and thought of the early church
· To encourage students to think historically about the church’s past
· To enable students to read the major texts of the early Church Fathers for themselves Topics and personalities covered include the first-century background, the Apostolic Fathers, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Origen, Trinitarian and Christological debates, Augustine, the rise of monasticism, and martyrdom. Residential (Fall and Spring terms) and Online (Spring term), two hours.
Old Testament Nothing is more foundational to Christian ministry than a full-orbed knowledge and embrace of the gospel. The Old Testament department is committed to teaching the first thirty-nine books of the Bible, with all the aspects entailed, as the anticipation of the glorious climactic fulfillment of redemption in Jesus Christ. To this end, the Old Testament curriculum enables students:
● To acquire a reading and exegetical knowledge of biblical Hebrew
● To acquire a knowledge of the content of the Old Testament
● To grapple with the challenges of biblical interpretation
● To evaluate the ways in which the Old Testament has been interpreted in the past
● To perceive the unity of the Old and New Testaments and the hermeneutical significance of their unity
● To understand and value the historical context in which God gave his redemptive revelation, how it began in the Old Testament period and then culminated in the glorious and extraordinary climax to that history in Christ and his work in Christ as interpreted in the New Testament
● To understand the redemptive-historical framework of “kingdom through covenant” as the story-structure of the Old Testament
● To identify the major biblical-theological themes of the Old Testament and to recognize their importance for understanding the gospel
● To develop skill in understanding and applying each of the books of the Old Testament
● To learn to communicate the gospel through the Old Testament
● To be encouraged to embrace the gospel in continuing and vital ways through the glory of God’s self-disclosure and to fear the Lord and love him with the whole heart Holy Land Studies For courses at the Jerusalem University College, see Chapter 7. 113 Old Testament Master's Level Courses OT 011, 012,
013 Biblical Hebrew Purpose: ·
To teach students elements of the Hebrew language
· To expose the student to a significant amount of biblical Hebrew through extensive translation of portions of the Hebrew Bible
· To prepare the student for further exegetical work in Old Testament courses Topics covered include orthography, phonemics, morphology, and syntax.
Old Testament Introduction Purpose:
· To introduce students to the complex hermeneutical, theological, and doctrinal issues surrounding Old Testament interpretation Topics covered include the history of the Hebrew text; the use of the Old Testament in the Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, and New Testament; the major critical methods and postmodern interpretation; and biblical theology. Residential (Fall and Spring semesters) and Online (Summer term), three hours. Prerequisites: OT 012 (or equivalent), completed or in progress. OT 141 Old Testament Theology for Application Purpose:
· To expose the student to specific interpretive issues in Old Testament historical, prophetic and wisdom books
· To demonstrate how Old Testament historical, prophetic and wisdom books are to be interpreted and applied in light of the gospel
· To engage in close reading and apply to specific books the principles of biblical-theological interpretation learned in Bible Survey Topics covered include redemptive-historical interpretation and the question of application; critique of various popular methods of application of biblical material; the nature of biblical history-writing; the office, function, and theology of the prophet in the Old Testament; understanding wisdom literature in light of the gospel; the specific theologies and redemptive-historical trajectories of several specific biblical books; and the use of the Old Testament in ministry.
Old Testament History and Theology I Purpose:
· To provide an introduction to the theology of the Pentateuch, focusing on Genesis 1–11
· To engage in the exegesis of selected passages from Genesis 1–11 with particular attention to their relationship to ancient Near Eastern literature, the theology of the Pentateuch as a whole, and to the history of redemption as it reaches its climax in the gospel Topics covered include the narrative structure of the Bible, the Pentateuch and the history of redemption, Genesis 1–11 as an entry point to biblical theology. Residential (Fall semester) and Online (Spring semester), three hours. Prerequisites: OT 013 (or equivalent) and NT 123. OT 223 Old Testament History and Theology II Purpose:
· To explore the relationship among literature, history, and theology from Genesis 12 through Ezra/Nehemiah · To provide a knowledge of the content of this section of canon
· To give a biblical-theological framework for applying these books in life and ministry In addition to the theology and content of each of these books, topics include the relationship of Deuteronomy to the other books; Old Testament historiography; Old Testament theology; the relationship between revelation, history, and theology; and covenant. Residential (Spring semester) and Online (Summer semester), three hours. Prerequisites: OT 013 (or equivalent), OT 211, and NT 123. OT 311
Prophetical Books Purpose:
· To provide knowledge of the content of this portion of the canon
· To study the role of the Hebrew prophets in Israelite society and the nature of Israelite prophecy
· To give a biblical-theological framework to understand the prophetic books in life and ministry Topics covered include the structure, content, and theology of the prophetic books and Daniel; the ancient Near Eastern setting of prophecy; the history of interpretation of the prophetic literature; and the role of the prophets in redemptive history. A portion of the course involves seminar discussions with the professor. Residential (Fall and Spring semesters) and Online (Fall semester), three hours. Prerequisites: OT 013 (or equivalent) and NT 123. OT 323
Poetry and Wisdom Purpose:
· To gain a strong familiarity with the nature of Hebrew poetry
· To explore the theological context of the wisdom books (Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes), Psalms, and Song of Songs
To discuss the theology of Old Testament wisdom vis-à-vis the gospel Topics covered include the nature and diversity of Old Testament wisdom books; characteristics of Hebrew poetry; exegetical studies of various psalms, Job, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Songs; and wisdom and the New Testament. Residential (Fall and Spring semesters) and Online (Spring semester), two hours. Prerequisites: OT 013 (or equivalent) and NT 123.
New Testament The New Testament department serves the mission of WTS to train specialists in the Bible by teaching the entirety of the New Testament, in its original language, as the full revelation of the covenant of God’s grace in Jesus Christ, providing foundational training and tools for a lifetime of learning and ministry. To this end, the New Testament curriculum enables students:
● To acquire facility in reading and rigorous exegesis of the New Testament in Greek
● To understand and value the historical context in which God accomplished his work in Christ, and through which he gave us the New Testament
● To perceive the unity of the Old and New Testaments and the hermeneutical significance thereof, with attention to our Confessional Standards
● To grapple with the challenges of biblical interpretation
● To recognize major biblical-theological themes of the New Testament and their importance for understanding the biblical message
● To develop skill in understanding and applying each of the books of the New Testament
● To encourage growth in godliness and spiritual maturity
● To evaluate the ways in which the New Testament has been interpreted in the past
New Testament Master's Level Courses NT 001, NT 002, NT 003 New Testament Greek Purpose: · To prepare students for further work in the New Testament by giving them a reading knowledge of Koiné Greek The course is designed for beginners; no prior knowledge of Greek is assumed. Students will cover the basics of grammar and acquire a core vocabulary. During the last semester students will do recitations from the Greek New Testament and be introduced to the issues of syntax. See Chapter 9 for possible sequences and Chapter 6 for auditing restrictions. Residential and Online, three hours each. NT 111 New Testament Introduction Purpose: · To continue to provide students with the historical and literary framework requisite for responsible New Testament interpretation.
Topics covered include introductory matters that apply to the New Testament as a whole, especially inscripturation, canon formation, textual transmission, textual criticism, historical background in Judaism and the Greco-Roman world, and especially how the Old Testament forms the most important background for the New Testament.
Some attention will also be paid to linguistic background. The general approach to these issues is historical, but with an underlying concern for the theological dimensions of each. Residential (Fall and spring terms), and Online (Summer term), three hours. Prerequisites: NT 001 (or equivalent) completed or in progress. NT 123 Biblical Hermeneutics: Old and New Testaments Purpose: · To grow in skill in understanding, interpreting, and applying the Bible Topics covered include prolegomena to biblical interpretation, principles and practice of biblical interpretation, and the question of hermeneutics in the historical-critical tradition. Residential (Spring semester) and Online (Spring semester), four hours. Prerequisites: NT 003 (or equivalent) completed or in progress, OT 012 (or equivalent) completed or in progress, NT 111 completed or in progress, and ST 101 completed or in progress. It is recommended that OT 012 be completed rather than in progress. NT 143
New Testament Theology for Application Purpose:
· To understand better the content and theology of the New Testament, with particular focus on how the Gospels, Acts, Epistles, and Revelation apply to life and counseling contexts.
· To describe how believers can meaningfully move from the text of Scripture to a wise, gospel-centered application of its truths
· To gain experience in seeing the Christological/Gospel-centered implications of any text as a prerequisite for meaningful personal application. · To grow in their ability to rivet Scriptural truth to real-life ministry situations.
NT 211 New Testament Interpretation: The Gospels Purpose:
· To develop a framework of understanding for interpreting and applying the canonical Gospels
· To familiarize students with the Gospels’ description of the earthly ministry and teaching of Jesus Christ, and to enable them to understand and apply the theology of the Gospels in ministry Topics covered include a selective survey and critique of historical-critical investigation of the Gospels, questions of special introduction, an overview of the content and theology of Jesus’ actions and teaching, and an examination of the character and special emphases of each canonical Gospel. Residential (Fall semester) and Online (Summer semester), four hours. Prerequisites: NT 003 (or equivalent), OT 013 (or equivalent) completed or in progress, NT 111, and NT 123. NT 223 New Testament Interpretation: Acts and the Pauline Epistles Purpose:
· To deepen understanding of Acts and the letters of Paul and apply them to students’ lives and ministry Topics covered include questions of special introduction, exegetical method, exegesis of selected texts, and basic themes in the theology of Acts and the letters of Paul. Residential (Spring semester) and Online (Fall semester), four hours. Prerequisites: NT 003 (or equivalent), OT 013 (or equivalent), NT 111, and NT 123. NT 311
New Testament Interpretation: Hebrews to Revelation Purpose:
· To introduce the particular character of Hebrews through Revelation
· To enable students to understand these books so that they can apply their teaching to their own lives and in their ministry The course will deal with questions of special introduction and will include the exegesis of selected passages in order to establish the structure and distinctive themes of these books.
NT 403 Theology and the Exegesis of the Gospel of John See NT 703. Spring semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 211 NT 405
The Gospel of Mark See NT 705. Summer term, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 211 122 NT 433
The Book of Revelation See NT 733. Fall semester, three hours. Prerequisites: NT 003 (or equivalent) completed or in progress. NT 463
The Acts of the Apostles See NT 763. Spring semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 223. NT 581
Theology of Hebrews See NT 881. Fall semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 123. NT 641 Inner-Biblical Interpretation See NT 941. Fall semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 003 (or equivalent), OT 013 (or equivalent) recommended. Restrictions: Limited enrollment. NT 643
Christology of the New Testament and Early Church See NT 943. Spring semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 123 NT 651
Theological Models and Exegesis See NT 951. Fall semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 123. NT 663
Greek Exegesis and Issues in Pauline Theology See NT 963. Spring semester, two hours. Prerequisites: NT 123. NT 681
History of Interpretation See NT 981. Fall semester, two hours. Prerequisites: CH 211, NT 123. New Testament ThM/PhD Level Course
....and so on....
39 comments:
UCG, COGWA, and LCG have a few pastors who received advanced degrees in some facet of ministry. The LCG ministry includes graduates from Azusa Pacific and from Jerry Falwell's Liberty University, but they can't exactly preach what they learned.
Who is Dennis C Diehl? Where were you when Jesus founded the Church of God?
Dennis,
While I agree with your thesis that most ACOG ministers are very deficient in their backgrounds in theological/historical/philosophical/Hebrew/Greek/etc., we should point out that a seminary education is NOT one of the qualifications of a minister outlined in the New Testament canon (many of them also do NOT meet those requirements either). According to Scripture, character is of much greater importance. Nevertheless, if one is going to put themselves forward as a theologian or biblical scholar, I would say that the kind of coursework described in your post is ESSENTIAL.
Some years ago, Gavin had a post on this very topic; And I posted the following in reaction:
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/04/does-god-want-trained-ministry.html
Although it's the complete antithesis of the ACOG model, I would say that Scripture presents Christianity as an emotional/spiritual experience as opposed to an intellectual one. Still, I agree with you that their ignorance of the things you mentioned is galling.
Lonnie
Why did Romans 1:22 keep coming to my mind as I read this post? How much theological education did Jesus have when he taught in the synagogues on the Sabbath as was his custom? How much theological education did his disciples have? I agree education is important. I have an advanced degree myself and I couldn’t have accomplished what I accomplished In life without it, but I’ve also come across my fair share of educated idiots. Where in the Bible do I find that there is a formal theological education requirement that Jesus himself didn’t have ?Richard
Dennis, because you failed, it does not necessarily mean that all others have and are failing. Don't paint all ministry with your broad brush. I doubt that you have the authority to judge all others. Please desist.
Going through a rigorous, structured, and analytic program that's part of an institution where critical thinking is central to learning can be a life-changing experience. There is no way anyone with at least average cognitive skills can come out of such a program and still believe the bible is inerrant and the literal word of god. It's a beautiful thing.
Doesn't read like Dennis to me. Thought he was living in his paradise ?
Eat your heart out, "Dr" Bob!
The added value of the advanced education described in Dennis's post is that it would have prevented the proliferation and teaching of the toxic and damaging errors and heresies of Armstrongism.
Reality is that HWA was pretty big on DYI, as opposed to relying on the well educated, the experienced professionals, and the governing bodies and accountability which maintain the standards of long-term church organizations. The old Worldwide Church of God was a do it yourself religion that HWA falsely sold as a revival of the first century Christian Church. This was him doing Maslow. The WCG was HWA's "self-actualization"
So I guess none of the Apostles would qualify, other than Paul. And even though Paul was highly educated you (and the rest of the world) love to beat on him for "changing" the law.
You simply do not understand the Holy Spirit.
Yes there are a lot of kooks out there, but in painting the whole COG movement with the same brush you discredit yourselves and the "work" you claim to do in exposing the frauds.
"HWA was pretty big on DIY"
yeah...the Portly-Perv, the Corn-belt High-School-dropout who perceived British-Israelism & Pyramidology as "truth"
In the latter years of WCG some ministers did go on to get advanced education in counseling and theology knowing the lack and need. They did not tend to stay with WCG or the insecure in WCG kept a tight rein on them. Seems the trend or rage during the changes was to go to Liberty University as it appealed to the fundamentalist and evangelical tilt or crash WCG was headed for.
HWA was indeed opposed to relying on an education in theology. He made fun of it and I would suspect out of the fear that he might not know as much as he thought he knew and could not stand up to scriptural scrutiny. Thus, he'd always go off on long winded talks about his ideas of theology such as "there were two trees...." or "...the strong hand from somewhere..." Any student at Fuller Seminary down the street could challenge him theologically in ways he'd not like at all on things he never heard of.
I am back in Portland, Oregon where I got my license in therapeutic massage back again and work four days a week book out six weeks in advance.
PS I better could have said the Elephant in the room for most of the ministry, elders and ALL of the self-appointed who declare themselves Apostles and every other title they can find in the scriptures for themselves. By the time one sees themselves spoken of in the scriptures it is pretty much game over in terms of reality.
Certainly all of the "self appointed" modern day COG "gurus" are a hot mess.
However, which Ivy League college did Moses, Elijah, or The Apostles go to, and how many letters do they have after their name??
Jesus had an un-excelled education in theological matters -- His Father, God Himself, educated Him and Jesus Himself was Diety. He was filled with the Holy Spirit. He was able to discern the hearts of men. He had complete understanding of what was going on. He educated the disciples in what He, Diety, considered the essentials...
I can respect the value of understanding Hebrew and Greek to have a better understanding of the Scriptures. My son went to seminary after earning a degree at a state university; and most of his friends who went to seminary are no longer Christians, though my son does remain a strong and focused Christian. I went to AC and had to unlearn everything I was taught.
The problem with all of the "churches of God" splinters is that they do not understand that we are no longer under the Old Covenant. An exception to that might be Grace Church International, the former WCG.
For the most part it seems to me that "COG" ministers do not understand love, mercy, kindness, grace, humility, or walking in ways of righteous or the preeminanece of Jesus Christ.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth:
Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men.....
And yet in 2000 years all of the COg "kings" and the armstrongites and the 15th day Pharisees have yet to figure this out:
In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.…….none of the meat which you sacrifice on the evening of the first day shall be left overnight until the morning. Three times a year you shall celebrate a feast to Me. You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread…...Feast of the Harvest…...also the Feast of the Ingathering…….. In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, you shall have the Passover, a feast of seven days…….
Wasn't Pervbert conferred an honorary Doctorate in Angeles-City Philippines? How much did his advance team have to shell out for that one? Oh shock! is the Philippines corrupt? How about the dubious doctorates of Banana-republic-Bob & Rod Merrydeath? We should heckle them with Duck-callers - those things that sound Quack-Quack!
And yet with all that scholarship we still have 41,000 different Christian denominations that can't seem to agree on many things. Not an exact science is it?
7.28 AM
Moses would have had personal tutors since he was a son of Pharaoh's daughter. Elijah and the twelve apostles would have had a religious back ground. Christ didn't call hillbillies.
11.00 PM
Most of HWAs teachings were cut and paste from other protestant churches. Please give an example of a supposed DIY teaching?
John7:16-18 "So Jesus answered them and said, “My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or whether I speak from Myself. 18 HE WHO SPEAKS FROM HIMSELF SEEKS HIS OWN GLORY; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him."
Do the leaders in the COG splits even have the Holy Spirit? If they do, why don't they understand and teach the truth and LIVE accordingly?
John 7:14-15 But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and began to teach. 15 The Jews then were astonished, saying, “How has this man become learned, having never been educated?”
Acts 4:13 –“Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14 And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply.
15 But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, , 16 saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it. 17 But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.”
The post is about a comprehensive and in depth education on the origins of the scriptures, their history, content, background, authorship and theology. It is not about whether Jesus was educated, the disciples were amazing in their ignorance or the background of the Apostle Paul.
It is about the qualifications of those to follow who claim to know what on earth these men were talking about and who Jesus was.
Trying to show that not many mighty, noble or chosen ones are called is not the point here. And being ignorant and unlearned is not the formula for success in explaining the Gospel as presented in the scriptures. That may work in the American South where a man can claim to be a "preecher" not because he knows what the hell he is talking about but because he quit "drankin',smokin', cussin' and chewin' and the Lord called me to preach". But it does not work in the real world of Church leadership and pastoring. We'd not be talking about a Gerald Flurry or Dave Pack if ignorance of the scriptures was actually a qualification for ministry. It is, however, the basis of theirs.
You people tire me with your judgmental comments. Mr Diehl evidently is a know it all when it comes to theology and the cogs. I wouldn’t give 2 cents for his perspectives and comments. Whether you folks get it or not there are some spirit led ministers in the churches of God. Yes there are some kooks as well. Other than the true cults of the church there is many find God fearing members in the church. I got a great idea. Since Christ is the head of his church. Why don’t we let him figure who’s who and quit putting ourselves in the judgment seat about The churches of God. I don’t think is pleased with this website. Judging others is above our pay grade. God is fully aware of the kooky cultic leaders that are among us. He will deal with them in due time. In the proper timing God will separate goats from sheep and chaff from the wheat. MM
Well. It's back to faith vs no faith. The no-faithers think the Bible is just a claim, not evidence.
"The problem with all of the "churches of God" splinters is that they do not understand that we are no longer under the Old Covenant."
Yup, that's the kind of stuff they teach at seminary. They poison the minds and turn people away from the truth, in part because they don't understand it themselves so there is no way they can teach it. But everyone comes away feeling important and educated because they "went to seminary".
The problem with your good comment is that the cogs’ bread and butter is judging all the Christians in the world outside of the cogs as deceived and fake. The judging is done by the cogs.
You’ve got to be kidding regarding hwa’s beliefs.
MM said "Mr Diehl evidently is a know it all when it comes to theology".
Mr. Diehl has spent a lifetime thinking about theology and moving beyond his "education" in HWA's "college" some 50 years ago.
You should spend some time reading his extensive writings at https://ezinearticles.com/search/?q=&expert=Dennis+Diehl&index=100 as well as on this site before judging him. Have you thought and written as much? Or do YOU simply rush to judgement?
You say Christ should figure out "who's who." Read and think about Mark 9:1. Don't just skip over that verse as I have seen preachers do when they are preaching the second coming. He was very wrong about that teaching. Should you trust him to figure out who's who?
Well, it may not be an elephant after all! Armstrongism has always been a sickness, a disease which infected numerous members. So, it is better described as having been another not quite so large large animal, an animal infected with elephantiasis. People thought of it as being an elephant. It even had the political leanings of an elephant. The broad majority of people who became members eventually came to their senses and left, thus being healed of the disease.
Stupid people who resist the holy spirit. Go back and read about its fruits and see if you have them. And remember that the spirit is not just about being nice or politically correct -- something which our ministers still don't understand, and which is why they give in to semblances of righteousness, being deceived by the devil, who casts shadows on true righteous works while brightening up and window-dressing unrighteousness, deceiving us into making aberrant judgments on the basis of biased opinions or faulty evidence.
7:14, you still can't explain Mark 9:1 after all these years? While we stand on the brink of the kingdom of God's appearance? What's so difficult about this verse? The Lord was obviously referring to his disciples (Peter, James & John) who would not taste death until experiencing the power of the kingdom, that is, the transfiguration, the glorious garments, the resurrected holy men (Moses & Elijah), the saintly dialogue, the shekhinah glory, and the Father's voice on the mount of transfiguration. They would die later but not before having passed "from (the sentence of) death unto life (eternal)" for believing on Christ. (Jn 5:24, 1 Jn 3:14)
We used to teach that Christ will rule in gentleness, Well, true, but He will also rule with a rod of iron. (Rev 19:15)
Friday, November 11, at 10:45:00 AM PST said, "Christ didn't call hillbillies."
Ah. Now I get it.
I was born and raised in the Ozarks and spent some of my formative years in the skeptical culture of the "Show me" state. He looked down and said, "Nah. No point in picking an independent scoffer like him. He wouldn't do me any good. Also he doesn't need any help from me, because the rigors of life where he came from made him tough as whang-leather. In the End he's going to sizzle for a few seconds in the Lake of Fire, but what the hell? Better than a life sentence in a church that will only intensify the baseline misery of his human existence."
As a result, I'm an atheist, thank god.
Retired Prof: I think the Armstrong era of his church and his splinters and slivers and offal were allowed by God so that you will be able to see in the future that God's Kingdom will be the exact opposite of the Armstrong "baseline misery". But then what do I know.
Anonymous Saturday, November 12, 2022 at 7:14:00 AM PST,
In response to another comment, you stated: "You say Christ should figure out "who's who." Read and think about Mark 9:1. Don't just skip over that verse as I have seen preachers do when they are preaching the second coming. He was very wrong about that teaching. Should you trust him to figure out who's who?"
Have your read Mark 9:2-9? It appears to me that Christ's prediction was fulfilled six days later - that Peter, James, and John got to see Christ in his Kingdom. Indeed, the context of the account of this event in the two other synoptic Gospels (see Matthew 16:28, 17:1-9 and Luke 9:27-36) equate Christ's statement with the Transfiguration (as in Mark). The clear implication being that Christ's prediction was fulfilled by this event.
Love 832's disgust with "you people" and tiring of your judging. But then judges me as if he knew. LOL They aren't that tired!
12:16:
Insults are the best you can do? "Stupid people" - really?
Apologists are people who twist and torture the bible text attempting to hide the contradictions and errors in the bible. Luke 21:25 and other verses describe the kingdom of god and all of the signs announcing its coming. Do you really think the kingdom of god coming in power is three guys watching three glowing guys chatting on a hill? Remember the new testament teaches the resurrection of the body, not as a phantasm.
You might want to check out some real biblical scholars.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtQ2TS1CiDY&list=PL279CFA55C51E75E0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_L4_LmqImY
Don't bother responding with further insults and/or weak apologetics. Trying to have an intellectual discussion with an apologist is never going to be productive. So I'm out.
Dennis, I do admire your fortitude in dealing with the crap that some people post. LOL is a good way to react. I noticed that from time to time you do take a break but thankfully for us readers you come back. The site isn't as engaging when you are on break.
8:44, Luke 21:25 doesn't describe the Kingdom, it describes the trib. And those three on the mount weren't just ordinary people, they are the future heads of the next kingdom that is coming. And, yes, the NT does teach the resurrection of the body but what you see on the mount is the body in its glorified state, not a phantasm.
There exists a natural body and a spiritual body. (1 Cor 15:44)
What? You didn't know that from all the recorded ufo sightings?
Dennis, loved your once again posting a statement that upholds Christianity. That seems odd since you tend to be atheistic.
One, of many points in your post, is this: 90% of seminary students stop studying it, and a high percentage drop it as soon as they graduate. Not bad as a comparison with the real “educated” clergy, eh?
As to Fuller Seminary mention by another poster, many other Christians complain that Fuller is heavily responsible for the decline in the churches.
Once I went with a group of AC students to hear a lecture by the head of Fuller. To illustrate the high level of his biblical understanding we stumped him on almost question. His basic, and substantial, final answer was: “You kids go on home, you have too many questions.”
Could give lots of other examples, but real life examples don’t sway minds already set.
Oops, I left out what 90% drop after studying, the Greek language of the NT.
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