"Any minister who steps out of line of Mr. Armstrong's authority,
NO LONGER CARRIES GOD'S AUTHORITY!"
(that is why none of the current splinter group leaders have any legitimacy nor ordination succession)
If HWA dies, God will destroy the world
(He didn't)
Waterhouse viewed Tkach Sr. as a type of the biblical Joshua
who led the people of Israel into the Promised Land
(We witnessed how THAT turned out...)
Waterhouse emphasizes that under the leadership of Tkach Sr.,
the Work can now "multiply," "magnify," "mushroom,"
and "accelerate quickly" in a "phenomenal" way.
(It accelerated alright, into oblivion!)
Waterhouse in effect describes God as a deceitful manipulator of a chosen people
who would be incapable of maintaining their momentum and continuing to "do the work"
if they were to be told the truth about God's plans.
(This is also how Pack, Flurry, Weinland, and Thiel think.)
What stupid things did you hear?
59 comments:
no wonder Bobby Fischer jumped ship
might need someone to patch things up though before debt gets too wacky
Only remember..."Sears and Rareback".....
This link is Bobby Fischer being interviewed in mid 1970's right after he was upset about 1975 In Prophecy speculations going ka-flooie, he may have mentioned G. Waterhouse & some stuffed shirts in hierarchy, then he stopped being a generous coworker after donating big tithes from chess championship winnings.
Pack & Flurry & many other pedestal Prefects are issuing same fake dates that caused the chess champ to prove all things.
Ep 1.7: Finding Bobby Fischer: Lost Interviews with the World Chess Champion (Worldwide: The Unchosen Church) on Worldwide with @TuneIn. #NowPlaying http://tun.in/tnAeP0
I remember butt and mind-numbing sermons that went on and on and on...
I do also remember him talking about Herbie finishing "the work," and that the world would be amazed that that white-haired old man would have the strength and energy to lead the Church to the Place of Safety. Yeah, that was pretty stupid.
When I asked him to his face,
"What are you going to say when Herbert Armstrong dies?
He said, "I'll believe it after three days and three nights".
We were always told, "ooh if your local area gets the wonderful chance to have Mr. Waterhouse visit your congregation & speak, you will be excitedly writing notes all during the notorious extended overtime sermons he gives. Better bring extra Pampers & Huggies for baby 'cause you won't want to be seen leaving before the 3 or 4 hour message is done"
How about Waterhouse's reference to "lip galaxies" contained in a transcript I have of one of his long-winded sermons?
"He doesn't have a lot of sour pusses in there who are walking on their lower lip. Can you imagine how far you could stretch your lower lip down into eternity?...Can you imagine if you were walking on your lower lip, how long? God would have to create lip rollers to come behind these sour ones in his family to roll the lips up. Pretty soon, you'd have to have galaxies just for lips, the lip galaxy. God doesn't want a lot, you know. Can you imagine how the face would be distorted walking on your lower lip here dragging and the longer it gets the more you have to drag. You'd finally, you know, you'd look like you were going to turn a somersault."
I asked him to his face here in NZ when are we going into the Soviet Union.
‘In time. That will happen’.
Today here we are and no Soviet Union and no wwcog and Russia a rapidly fading power but one unfortunately armed with nukes.
But back then if one foretold all this publicly you would of been tarred and feathered.
When he said to the church member in the gay bar, "What's a nice-looking guy like you doing here?"
I remember being a wee lad in a congregation that the almighty HQ seemed to consider backwater when Gerald decided to grace the congregation with his presence. I was way too young to have much of an opinion of Gerald one way or the other. I do remember many adults being upset about hearing a blowhard rattle on for hours on a weeknight. I was very glad I was considered young enough to sleep on the floor. I woke up a couple of times thinking “he’s still talking?” By the way, what is it with the COG’s and guys named Gerald?
if Waterhouse was that inept, will he even be in the "1st resurrection"?...what if he blundered so bad that we won't hear his long ones again till 1,000 yrs.
I'd ask him if my golf shoes would also mess up my lip
Did G. Waterhouse have any opinion of HWA marrying Ramona
PS. I referred to his long winded visits as -The Feast of Unleavened Buns" flat as they ended up and all.
As a young kid, I thought Waterhouse was quite inspiring. Actually looked forward to his visits. By the time I reached adulthood, his messages had aged poorly, right along the same trajectory as the HWA end time prophecies.
I never would have guessed, back in the day, that people would be teaching and believing all the failed prophecies 50 years later! In spite of what we know about dna, no less!
I remember as a kid Waterhouse coming to Birmingham in the 1970's on a weeknight and Waterhouse speaking for hours & hours. The meeting place I think was an old American Legion lodge downtown and I remember waking up around 10:30 pm and he was still going strong. I wonder what other ministers REALLY thought about Waterhouse behind the scenes because he seemed to sorta seemed to display being bipolar and I guess he was Worldwide's version of Baghdad Bob
I remember Waterhouse always conveniently showed up in the Indianapolis area during the month of May. Not to visit with brethren, he loved hanging out at the Speedway.
The main thing I remember about him and a few other speakers is that they didn't really teach anything. They just spoke at us, and not to us. I guess him and others were supposed to be "motivational" speakers, so the membership would give more money to the organization.
hot, "cross" (boringly angry) buns
it's a new meaning for "Gerries"
it's no longer a term for Germans...now it's for the dream team : Flurry/Weston/Waterhouse the 3 Heraldic Geraldics
Back when the DC-10s were all grounded because they had developed cracks as long as nine inches, Gerald claimed we would be going to Petra on those very DC-10s. When asked about those nine-inch cracks, he answered, “They will be covered by ten-inch angels.”
Shortly before his death, Waterhouse was asked by his Philippinoe brethren why he taught the Tkach changes from the pulpit. He replied that he didn't believe in the changes, but that members having trust in the church government was so important, that he publicly tagged along. So a human government comes before following Christ.
What struck me about his sermons was that he didn't expand on God's laws but only talked up HWA and the church. He worshipped the creation rather than the creator.
He was also their chief Troubleshooter: they kept sending him down-under to straighten out problematic Australian congregations.
In this connection he said "Neh theen, supposin' Mr Armstrong took a wheelbarrow of money and started throwin' it off the Sydney bridge..if you'd have a problem with that, you don't understeend guv'ment"
"What struck me about his sermons was that he didn't expand on God's laws but only talked up HWA and the church."
he should have talked about Ramona
Heh, who was it that wrote "Waterhouse lived out of a suitcase on a big expense account. His suffering was our suffering"?
they were as motivational as Chris Farley's "Matt Foley" on Sat. Night Live
live out of a suitcase
in a van down by the river
Anon, Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 1:58:00 AM PDT, said:
"...As a young kid, I thought Waterhouse was quite inspiring. Actually looked forward to his visits. By the time I reached adulthood, his messages had aged poorly, right along the same trajectory as the HWA end time prophecies.
I never would have guessed, back in the day, that people would be teaching and believing all the failed prophecies 50 years later! In spite of what we know about dna, no less!..."
******
Yes, who would have "thunk" it?
I, too, first listened to Gerald Waterhouse over 5 decades ago, and he was very interesting to listen to; however, so much of what he said were statements without Biblical proof: e.g. spiritual milk plus lots of junk food prophecies (e.g. MMMillennium) with practically no strong meat, but such was like.
Where are those old Ambassador college graduates, and hirelings of the former WCG? Most, probably like Gerald, taking a dirt nap.
Where is Ambassador college? Another dirt nap: like being non-existent!
Why does a Doug Winnail (e.g. Kubik, Weston, Franks, Coulter, Weinland, Ashley, Shabi, even Mark Armstrong, etc.) teach them failed prophecies 50 years later? Good question. One would think that none of these individuals had ever repented: been granted repentance by God. Where is the grow in grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ?
They are still as blind (Matthew 15:13-14) today as they were back then over 50 years ago.
What did they mean: another Jesus is going to return "very shortly" in 3-5 years to establish a Mickey Mouse millennium (MMM) of rulership on planet earth?
Did Jesus lie? The Jesus who said He would be at His Father's right hand for a long time...until all enemies were subdued by His Father, etc. Did Jesus, who is not God of the Old Testament, lie to us?
Yes, these former WCG hirelings driven by another spirit must preach another gospel by another Jesus to this very day.
And DNA? Nobody to this day understands how any of that DNA information got into the cells, but there will be lots of junk food speculations about it.
Matthew 15:13 "But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
When will these blind leaders, these blind hirelings (who left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena) of the former WCG, like the blinded Pharisees Sadducees and scribes of Jesus' day, acting so much like blinded Laodiceans of Revelation 3:14-19, repent of preaching about their spiritual junk food (especially their failed prophecies), and come out of their blindness?
Oh, we may be one day closer, but time will tell...
John
Some people keep saying that time will tell. That seems to be their answer to everything.
Plenty of people die of old age waiting for time to tell. So don't wait for time. Time cannot tell you anything if you die before time will tell.
Besides, there is usually already enough info. So why wait for time to produce more?
Failed prophecy is not evidence of Laodaceanism. It is evidence that one is a tool of Satan and should be stoned with stones.
Anon, Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 10:00:00 AM PDT, said:
"...Some people keep saying that time will tell…So why wait for time to produce more?..."
******
Anon,
You know that God sent His Son to save the world, not condemn it (John 3:16-17): done deal!
One very familiar simple formula is:
"For the wages of sin [is] death;..." Romans 6:23
Will you be in the first or second resurrection? There is no third.
You have already sinned; so have I. Your wages of sin is death; is there any other wages? Same is true of me. We both will die (yes, or be changed in the twinkle of an eye, but that will still be a death; it's been appointed once for us to die). Time will tell.
It is going to be God's good pleasure which ever resurrection you come up in; how will you impact or change that? What difference will it make? It's not up to you; God already did it! It's going to be so good either way.
Ecclesiastics 7:1 "A good name [is] better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one’s birth."
What could be better than that dirt-nap, that sleep, that death?
At death the spirit (James 4:5) in you will cease to bother you anymore: sin in you ceases. Your spirit, different from James 4:5, returns to God, who gave it. You are clean, and sinless with your temporary cessation from life. You/I will be resurrected, made alive again...either in that 1st or 2nd resurrection. How do we know?
Back to that simple formula again: "...but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23
And you/I did absolutely nothing to earn that gift; God already provided for it via His Son. How will God judge you? Remember, you are sinless; the wages were paid with your death! God is not into double jeopardy regarding sin.
You already know the details regarding the first resurrection.
So, what about the second resurrection; there is no third? You've read it before:
"Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:" Matthew 25:34
That's part of the grace of everlasting life that The God, who is love, prepared for you before you were ever conceived.
Yes, time will tell. It's God's will be done. The hirelings of the former WCG continue to foster Fear Religion trying to get you to think that you, in your flesh, must do something to qualify, to impress God with fulfilling various requirements, prerequisites....yes, that they can't even fulfill in their own lives, but they won't tell you that. What a burden! What a yoke!
Will time tell? Even, despite their ignorance, the simple formula will also apply to them. Ezekiel 34 revealed that God would "fire" His shepherds, who were over His flock...now scattered all over the earth.
No, time is not the answer to everything, but time will tell which resurrection it was God's good pleasure and will for you, regardless of the sin (Romans 7:17, 20) and evil (Romans 7:21) that is present in your life, to be in, and subsequently take and destroy Satan and his angels. It's a plan; God is working a plan to save all humanity. He will not fail, and that may be hard to believe, but God, The God, by the power of His Spirit, through His Son are the real doers (I Cor 8:6; John 17:21-25). So many have been taught that self is the real doer. Well, but...
Time will tell...but why? How?
God will have been our ultimate teacher. Believe Jesus' words: "It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." John 6:45
Sufficient time will have elapsed, and after you awake in a resurrection you will look back and know that time did tell of all that God accomplished (Acts 15:18; Heb 4:3) to enable you to live again.
John
What led to him having this "unique" ministry of traveling from congregation to congregation? Did CAD set up his itinerary? Did he work unsupervised? Did he have to answer to anybody? Was he protected by someone? Did he have some dirt on someone which allowed him to do what he wanted, go where he wanted, etc. with an expense account that was never questioned?
"...Jesus who said He would be at His Father's right hand for a long time...until all enemies were subdued by His Father..."
Not "were" but "are". Psalm 110:1. At Christ's return the Father will subdue all enemies. So Christ's return could be 3-5 years, or, months to 5 years or more.
To Anon 10:00
"Plenty of people die of old age waiting for time to tell. So don't wait for time. Time cannot tell you anything if you die before time will tell."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactly, people need to focus on themselves or their discipleship with Christ instead of wasting their time on"time will tell" failed prophecies. They want to be present when Christ "spanks the world" or when Christ returns. They attempt to put HWA in their prophetic word or view. It may be another group of people that are better prepared for "time will tell."
"and the day of death than the day of one’s birth.
What could be better than that dirt-nap, that sleep, that death?"
then why didn't Adam & Eve just chuck it when they goofed it for everyone, and had saved us all from going through the holocausts & the JonBenet Ramseys & the Amy Allwines...that would be the biggest dirt-nap of all...would those days of death had been better than all our friends' days of birth
Job asked the same serious questions
why does God leave us in this nice daycare of His but keeps a pervert employee Satan cavorting down the daycare halls
we need a return soon
Waterhouse said HWA was like a telephone through which God spoke. Perhaps God dialed the wrong number.
Yeah, but I always had my own telephone, 5:29. This afternoon I was groovin' out to you tube on my iphone, specifically "Mr. Fantasy" by Dead and Company. Awesome slow guitar jam. I got to thinking, Gerald Waterhouse was HWA's version of a Mr. Fantasy!
I remember reading that when Waterhouse was at headquarters he was a real difficult personality to cope with & of all things was almost ungovernable. I guess some what ironic that the traveling evangelist of church government would turn out to be so. I also was told he repeatedly said the only woman he ever loved was his mother. Same quote I saw Liberace say on 20/20 news show.
Add Jon Brisby of COGE to this list of charlatans.
Waterhouse sermons are still available online. I tried listening to one once just to see what the hype was about. I got about 15min into it and he still hadn't said anything of any substance so I left. I still don't know why he was out there doing whatever it was he did. Seems like he just took up time.
The word back in the ''60s was that he was "bound" because of a past marriage and divorce, His home was an apartment at 80 South Grand, which was also a men's dorm off the central campus, and across the street from the then vacant Vista Del Arroyo Hotel, and near the infamous "suicide bridge" which crosses ofer the Arroyo. We'd see him coming and going whenever he was in town, and if I recall correctly, he liked to play handball, and frequented the handball court.
This was before the scandal era, when everybody still believed that all the ministers were pristine and pure, and we never heard any of the later allegations regarding him being a member of the LGBT community.
Anon, Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 2:54:00 PM PDT, said:
"...Jesus who said He would be at His Father's right hand for a long time...until all enemies were subdued by His Father..."
Not "were" but "are". Psalm 110:1. At Christ's return the Father will subdue all enemies. So Christ's return could be 3-5 years, or, months to 5 years or more.
******
Anon, if what you say/think is true, you will be disappointed, because Christ's return to reign on earth for 1,000 years isn't "in the cards." The Father isn't waiting for Christ's return before putting down enemies.
You know Satan will be in the pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20), and then, still an enemy, is loosed from the pit and goes out and again deceives the entire world and war continues to exist...even Jerusalem is messed up! Wasn’t Jesus in Jerusalem? Will your Christ have failed? Where was Christ? Why wasn't that enemy made a footstool?
What are some of the scriptures?
Psalm 110:1 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
We don't see the words "are" or "were," but what about that word "until?" And that is until the LORD, the Father, makes enemies the lord's, Jesus Christ's, footstool.
Then, we also have:
Matthew 22:44 "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
And this:
Mark 12:36 "For David himself said by the Holy Ghost [[Spirit]], The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."
That pretty much parrot's Psalm 110:1,but also, here's another verse:
Hebrews 1:13 "But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?"
Of course, that wasn't said about any angels.
So, when you believe that: "...At Christ's return the Father will subdue all enemies. So Christ's return could be 3-5 years, or, months to 5 years or more...," then you are thinking basically what HWA believed all of his life. He's dead.
There have been a lot of "...Christ's return could be 3-5 years, or, months to 5 years or more..."
Even Doug Winnail, and all other hirelings of the former WCG of HWA, still is waiting another 3-5 years!
How many more "3-5 year" periods would you like to experience before your dirt-nap occurs?
You are experiencing patience, a good trait, but you may want to keep in mind that numerous people, especially those hirelings, currently scattered worldwide, of the former WCG, still turn a blind eye to the time Jesus Christ returned to earth with a second coming/time after His murder, death, resurrection that lasted for about a 40-day period.
How many other scriptures are these hirelings "blind" to?
Jesus, while walking this earth, admitted that of Himself He could do nothing, but He had a lot of help and He, unlike most of us, knew it.
He knows His Father is in charge, and you, expecting Jesus to return in some 3-5 year period ahead of us, have yet to be shocked wondering: what happened to our "3-5 year period" theory? Why are all of those hirelings, today appearing like blind laodiceans, looking as foolish as the ancient Pharisees when they confronted Jesus Christ with their foolishness? Anything new under the sun?
Time will tell...
John
Anon, Wednesday, October 4, 2023 at 4:52:00 PM PDT, said:
"...then why didn't Adam & Eve just chuck it when they goofed it for everyone, and had saved us all from going through the holocausts & the JonBenet Ramseys & the Amy Allwines...that would be the biggest dirt-nap of all...would those days of death had been better than all our friends' days of birth
Job asked the same serious questions
why does God leave us in this nice daycare of His but keeps a pervert employee Satan cavorting down the daycare halls
we need a return soon…”
******
Anon, if we really needed "a return soon," then why isn't it here? It isn't needed today.
What do the scriptures tell you/us about God and Satan, good and evil?
Who among us isn't learning to hate evil? I didn't say: to hate Satan, or to hate people.
Adam and Eve did not goof anything for everybody, but you appear to blame/judge them for something. Why?
Those who died in "the holocausts & the JonBenet Ramseys & the Amy Allwines?" Yes, throw Job in there too; they learned to hate evil and will live again. Job knew he would live again.
Those individuals, like Adam and Eve, lived once, and they all will live again: some good news, but they learned to hate evil.
Yes, it's horrible what we all go through. It's a bumpy ride, but you will live again and not experience the sorrows, pain, death, etc. again.
Do you want future good news details? Go read the verses that apply to God's 7th annual Holyday, the Eighth Day.
Fortunately, or unfortunately, hirelings of the former WCG have taken numerous verses that apply to that 7th annual Holyday, and strived to stuff them all into the Feast of Tabernacles.
Remember Adam and Eve only experienced good, but God intended they also learn about evil. God's Plan (Acts 15:18) was for them to experience good and evil. Why? Go ask Him. God can only do perfection. God is accomplishing works (Heb 4:3), and is working out a plan to save all humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his angels.
God has scheduled 2 resurrections for a purpose. Those individuals all experienced some degree of evil in their lives while living under the control of Satan and his angels, which later will be taken and destroyed (Matthew 25:41, 46; 2 Peter 2:12, etc.), will never again experience such things, but all those resurrected will come to be known as "the ancient people."
Isa 44:7 And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
All who have lived, and died, will be called the ancient people: people who learned what it was like to live under Satan's reign and control in this present evil world. They will all be witnesses to it, and all will know how it was God who bailed them out, after death, and allowed them to live again. All will be witnesses to others born in future generations, who will not experience what those billions of witnesses experienced.
Thank God for resurrections (e.g. Isaiah 26:19 to be in 2nd resurr.)
You asked: "why does God leave us in this nice daycare of His but keeps a pervert employee Satan cavorting down the daycare halls."
You think about it. Did God create evil (Isaiah 45:7)? Did God create that most subtle beast of the field? There must be a purpose. Didn't HWA tell us that we lived in a world held hostage? Held captive? Was/is it true (2 Tim 2:26; John 6:44; I John 3:8, etc.)? Was HWA right on that one point? Is God love, or did He lie to us? Did Jesus Christ lie to us?
Another bottom line? "He hath made his wonderful works to be remembered: the LORD [is] gracious and full of compassion." Psalm 111:4
Time will tell...
John
what if Adam would have had that same sentiment as Waterhouse & Liberacè
when he saw Eve
sometimes G. Waterhouse reminds me of Data//Brent Spiner on Star Trek
One of the difficulties in understanding the OT, is that the revelation of the NT is often read back into the OT. In this scenario Psalm 110 is understood as a DIRECT MESSIANIC prophecy. But it is argued that this royal psalm was composed by the psalmist for his contemporary Davidic king. Later after the return from the Babylonian captivity, when no Davidic sat on the throne, this psalm came to be understood as a MESSIANIC prophecy - cp. second temple exegesis in the first century AD. It is highly probable that David composed the psalm (Mk 12:36) in his co-regency with Solomon when he was too ill to perform his royal duties - as acting king, Solomon was David’s lord - and in his anticipation that Solomon would build the temple and be the patron of the temple and temple worship.
1Ki 5:3 ... because of the wars waged against ... David from all sides, he could not build a temple for the Name of the LORD his God until THE LORD PUT HIS ENEMIES UNDER HIS FEET. (Cp. 2 Sam 7:1).
1Ki 5:4 But now the LORD my GOD HATH GIVEN ME REST ON EVERY SIDE, so that there is neither adversary nor evil occurrent.
God, “first cause,” put David’s enemies under his feet, through David, “second cause,” but because of his bloodshed he still could not build the Temple.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet...
Eventually God, “first cause,” is going to place Jesus Christ’s enemies under His feet through Jesus Christ himself - “second cause”; just as he did for and through David; with God at His right hand Ps 110:5.
Ps 110:1 The LORD [YHWH] said unto my Lord [’adoni], Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool
Ps 110:5 The Lord [’adonay] at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
"The concept of the monarch sitting at the right hand of the deity was common throughout the ancient Near East. See John W. Hilber, "Psalm CX in the Light of Assyrian Prophecies," VT, 2003, 353-66)" (Nancy DeClaisse-Walford, The Book of Psalms, NICOT, p.835).
"Whereas in v.1 the RIGHT HAND refers to divine honour, here [110:5] it symbolizes divine protection" (Leslie C. Allen, The Psalms 73-159, PBFT, p.680).
For human Davidic kings, "sitting at God's right hand" was ancient near-eastern hyperbole; for Jesus it is literal.
“In the first verse, the king was described as sitting at God’s right hand; now God (the Lord) is at the king’s right hand, protecting him and fighting on his behalf, with the result that the king will have victory over the kings of the earth (see also Ps.2)” (Tremper Longman III, Psalms, TOTC, p.383).
1Co 15:24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
“Paul continues to explain the significance and the time of Christ’s rule with the conjunction for. He advances the concept of divine necessity by saying not that Christ rules but that he must rule. He implies that God the Father has given his Son the mandate both to reign and complete the divine plan of redemption...
“Here he alludes to one of the psalms...
“The allusion displays Paul’s freedom in adapting Scriptures. David, the psalmist, portrays God as the speaker who addresses his Son and reveals that God will subjugate the enemies to be a footstool for his Son’s feet. But Paul rewrites the Old Testament text to give it a christological emphasis and have Christ over-powering all his enemies...” (Simon J. Kistemaker, 1 Corinthians, NTC, p.553).
wasn't there once a red-letter bible (of Jesus' words of course in red text), that actually had a small piece or 2 or red text in the Old Testament too...such as, maybe the Melchizedek stuff...or, also the Gen. part maybe should be pink (partly red) when it was said "let us make man in our image"?
the super duper COG potluck apostles would get the dunce cap readied for me if I asked such a thing
We'd see him coming and going whenever he was in town, and if I recall correctly, he liked to play handball, and frequented the handball court. This was before the scandal era.
Back then, we knew that Waterhouse and Rod Meredith often played together. Back then, we didn't realize just how true that was.
John, your post at 11:31 seems to be the most thorough exposition of your beliefs that I have seen in several years of reading your posts on this blog. Thank you.
Glenn, Thursday, October 5, 2023 at 7:23:00 PM PDT, said:
"...John, your post at 11:31 seems to be the most thorough exposition of your beliefs that I have seen in several years of reading your posts on this blog. Thank you.
******
Glenn, you are welcome, and thanks for your response. Make it a great day!
this site won't allow any of us to challenge John's pristine point of view...he's the new Presiding Evangelist of Banned By HWA
John has paid his dues. He was on one of the old forums years ago with Gary and several of the rest of us before Gary started Banned. This is the first time I've ever known John to exchange personal comments after one of his posts, and it's something I'd like to encourage him to do more of in the future. His posts indicate unique and independent perspectives, and he appears to have a good sense of humor as well with such original phrases as the "Mickey Mouse Millennium", and the splinter ministers all "left their credentials in Pasadena."
Can 11:55 ever grow up and learn to be more tolerant? Time will tell!
BB
Waterhouse was just a big brown moser idolizing the Armstrongs preaching fear religion. I was disgusted with him screaming at the members, telling them if the Armstrongs aren’t the two witnesses, then the Bible isn’t true! And instead of Russia, Russia, Russia- it was Petra, Petra, Petra.
He should have never been allowed to tour the world (playing golf) and preaching heresy
God the Father can subdue His Son's enemies in seconds, minutes. Doesn't require years.
Anon, Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 5:58:00 AM PDT, said:
"...God the Father can subdue His Son's enemies in seconds, minutes. Doesn't require years..."
******
That is absolutely true; however, God does things decently and in order, especially in regards to His Plan of Salvation to save all humanity and subsequently take and destroy Satan and his angels.
Think about the 7 Vials, God's wrath, being poured out after Satan is loosed from the pit: how long of a time period will those 7 Vials cover?
Well, that is a long way off.
Okay, think about the 7 Trumps, wrath of the Lamb, being poured out and leading up to Satan being relocated to the bottomless the pit. Will it like a dry place not desired by Satan?Again, how long of a time period will those 7 Trumps cover?
And people want to talk about climate change? Those Trumps will provide huge climate impacts, and they have no relationship to the 7 Trumps previously associated with the White House.
We don't wrestle flesh and blood, remember, it's the principalities and it will be many seconds and minutes to pass by before they are subdued.
Think about the 7-headed beast. Rome was the sixth head:
"And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." Rev 17:10
God is working a plan (Acts 15:18; Heb 4:3). How many centuries passed to cover time from the establishment of the first head to that 6th head?
Here's something else to be fulfilled before "God the Father can subdue His Son's enemies:"
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled." Revelation 17:17
So, yes, "...God the Father can subdue His Son's enemies in seconds, minutes. Doesn't require years..."; however, it has taken centuries so far, and God the Father still hasn't done it, but it shall be done, or God is a liar.
"The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Proverbs 16:4
Today, we are learning to hate evil. Why? Today is still a part of the day of evil; however, this day of evil is not forever.
Most may not realize it, but an understanding of the meaning of God's seventh annual Holyday, aka the Last Day (John 7:37), aka the Great Day, aka the Great Last Day, the Eighth Day (Lev 23:36,39) pictures the time when the wicked for the day of evil is done, and mankind, humanity, will finally experience a complete rest from Satan and his angels, a time when the following verses will be fulfilled, thanks to God's perfect timing within His perfect Plan of salvation:
"And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God." Revelation 21:3
"And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:" Jeremiah 32:38
Ezekiel 37:26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
:27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people."
Time will tell...
John
11:55
How droll. Get over it. Go comment on Bob Thiel's blog and whine some more. Oh wait, he won't let you comment.
If you don't like what John writes, don't read it! No one is making you do it except yourself because you want to be titillated. Besides, this blog doesn't revolve around you or your opinions.
John writes
“Think about the 7 Vials, God's wrath, being poured out after Satan is loosed from the pit”.
That is not my reading of Revelation — the vials are poured out before Christ’s return - I go with the second thought.
Ps 110:1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
1Co 15:25 For he [Christ] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
“... Paul rewrites the Old Testament text to give it a christological emphasis and have Christ over-power all his enemies..." (Simon J. Kistemaker, 1 Corinthians, NTC, p.553).
What Paul has done is that he has revealed the “second cause” outworking of this Scripture. Ps 110:1 is written from the “first cause/principal” perspective; 1 Co 15:25 from the “second cause/agency” angle.
Rev 16:14b the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations:
In the chronological story-flow of Revelation, the kings of the earth gather at Armageddon to prepare to fight Christ at his return. Then comes the battle with Christ’s return.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 17:1 to 19:10 is retro-prospective prophetic insert which explains why Babylon comes up in remembrance and reveals Babylon’s destruction. That is the events of chaps. 17-18 have already taken place before the gathering at Armageddon.
Jos 6:13 Then seven priests bearing seven trumpets [salpigx, LXX] of rams' horns before the ark of the LORD went on continually and blew [salpizo, LXX] with trumpets.
Rev 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets [salpigx, “stood before God”(8:2)] prepared themselves to sound [salpizo]
For Joshua, son of Nun, Israel marched around Jericho once for six days and on the seventh they marched around seven times, the walls fell down and the battle began.
For Joshua, son of God, the six trumpets precedes the seventh trumpet made of seven vials before the “battle of great day of God Almighty” at Jerusalem.
More Joshua, son of Nun and Joshua, son of God typology - the king of Jerusalem and the other kings are a type of Satan and the demons.
Rev 20:2a And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Jos 10:5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together ... and all their hosts, and encamped before Gibeon, and made war against it.
Jos 10:17 And it was told Joshua, saying, The five kings are found hid in a cave at Makkedah.
Jos 10:18 And Joshua said, Roll great stones upon the mouth of the cave, and set men by it for to keep them:
Jos 10:22 Then said Joshua, Open the mouth of the cave, and bring out those five kings unto me out of the cave.
Jos 10:24 And it came to pass, when they brought out those kings unto Joshua, that Joshua called for all the men of Israel, and said unto the captains of the men of war which went with him, Come near, put your feet upon the necks of these kings...
[Ro 16:20a And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly].
Part 2
Jos 10:26 And afterward Joshua smote them, and slew them, and hanged them on five trees: and they were hanging upon the trees until the evening.
Jos 10:27 And it came to pass at the time of the going down of the sun, that Joshua commanded, and they took them down off the trees, and CAST THEM INTO THE CAVE wherein they had been hid, and laid great stones in the cave's mouth, which remain UNTIL THIS VERY DAY.
To sum up, the seven vials occur before Christ’s return; Satan and the demons are bound during the Millennium/Messianic Age; let loose to deceive the nations:
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND BRIMSTONE, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night FOR EVER AND EVER.
The king of Jerusalem released from the cave and Satan from the pit didn’t/don’t last long.
2Ch 32:1 ... Sennacherib king of Assyria came, and entered into Judah, and encamped against the fenced cities, and thought to win them for himself.
Isa 36:2 And the king of Assyria sent Rab-shakeh from Lachish to Jerusalem unto king Hezekiah with a great army.
Eze 8:6 He said furthermore unto me, Son of man, seest thou what they do? even the great abominations that the house of Israel committeth here, that I should go far off from my sanctuary? but turn thee yet again, and thou shalt see greater abominations.
Eze 11:23 And the glory of the LORD went up from the midst of the city, and stood upon the mountain which is on the east side of the city.
Jerusalem was safe in the time of Hezekiah because God’s presence was still in the Temple - God was still dwelling with his people. But in the time of Zedekiah God’s presence left the Temple and Jerusalem and its fate was set.
"For Ezekiel the movement of the divine glory would have had ominous significance... the departure of the glory signals the end of a relationship that had existed for almost four centuries. The divine king has abandoned his residence" (Daniel I. Block, The Book of Ezekiel Chapter 1-24, NICOT, pp.306, 326-27).
"This must have been one of the darkest moments of Ezekiel's ministry... He would have known the story of the departure of the glory of Yahweh from the his people when the Philistines captured the ark of the covenant - before even the temple was built - and the naming of Eli's posthumous grandson Ichabod, 'No glory', to mark that tragedy. But that was centuries ago, before all the promises that Yahweh had made in relation to his temple and this city. Yet now, in his own blighted lifetime not only had Ezekiel been expelled from his beloved city, but he had also lived to witness something even worse - the glory of his covenant God, YAHWEH, LEAVING HIS TEMPLE, LEAVING HIS CITY, LEAVING HIS PEOPLE TO THEIR DESTRUCTION" (Christopher J. H. Wright, The Message of Eekiel, BST, pp.120-121).
Eze 38:16 You will advance against my people Israel like a cloud that covers the land. In days to come, O Gog, I will bring you against my land, so that the nations may know me when I show myself holy through you before their eyes.
Eze 39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Gog/Magog envelopes the Messianic Age. God’s people are safe in both instances.
Anon, Saturday, October 7, 2023 at 6:15:00 PM PDT, said:
"...John writes
“Think about the 7 Vials, God's wrath, being poured out after Satan is loosed from the pit”.
That is not my reading of Revelation — the vials are poured out before Christ’s return - I go with the second thought......"
******
Anon,
I am familiar with your view, which is very similar to what was taught by HWA of the former WCG. It has been so easy for many to turn a blind eye to that 40 day period after Jesus returned from Heaven with His second coming, and go on and make up other theories about any other comings of Jesus. You are welcome to that view.
I believe Satan exits the pit as the leader of that 7th head, Gog, to mess up the world. God's wrath via the 7 Vials will some time after that destroy what Satan accomplishes through Gog, messing up Jerusalem, etc., and Jesus will not reign on earth until after all of that is accomplished.
So, you think it will happen soon (in 3-5 years?), and I believe it will be over a 1,000 years from today. We both will exercise patience, won't we? And ...
Time will tell...
John
John writes:
“It has been so easy for many to turn a blind eye to that 40 day period after Jesus returned from Heaven with His second coming... You are welcome to that view.”
Your interpretation is not the Bible's interpretation, that is, that is not how the author of Hebrews sees it. Christ's appearing a "second time" is yet future:
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for [apekdechomai] him shall he APPEAR [OPTOMAI, FUTURE TENSE] THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation.
2Th 2:1b ... the coming [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
Second time = second coming.
"The Jewish calendar is divided into the spring and fall holidays, corresponding to Yeshua's first and second comings..." (David Stern, Messianic Jew, Jewish New Testament Commentary, p.792).
"What will happen a second time is his appearance, but this time it will be "apart from sin" that is, his second appearance will not be to deal with sin, since that work was done once for all. Rather, the Second Coming (that this is a reference to the parousia is clear) will be for the consummation of salvation for those who eagerly awaiting his coming. Verse 28b could be translated, "He will be seen by those eagerly expecting him for salvation".... The writer may here be returning to the image of the Day of Atonement ritual. While all the worshipers waited outside, the high priest entered the Most Holy Place to sprinkle blood on the mercy seat, in the very presence of God. Will the high priest reappear, or is to audacious for any person to approach God? The people eagerly await his "second coming" (Fred B. Craddock, The Letters to the Hebrews, NIB, Vol.12, p.113).
"Christ will come back a second time and then he will not be concerned with sin. The thought is that sin was dealt with finally at his first coming. There is nothing more that he should do. The second time he will come "to bring salvation." There is a sense in which salvation has been brought about by Christ's death. But there is another sense in which it will be brought to its consummation when he returns. Nothing is said about unbelievers. At this point the writer is concerned only with those who are Christ's. They "are waiting for him," where the verb apekdechomai expresses the eager looking for the Lord's coming so characteristic of the NT" (Leon Morris, Hebrews, EBC, Vol.12, p.93).
"At this point, the author adds his only explicit reference to the second coming of Christ (though this is alluded to in 10:25, 37): he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him (apekdechomenois, ‘eagerly waiting' [BDAG; ESV])..." (David G. Peterson, Hebrews, TNTC, p.220).
"All the blessings which he won for his people at his first appearing will be theirs to enjoy at his second appearing" (F.F. Bruce, The Epistle to the Hebrews, Revised, NICNT, p.233).
The first and second appearances/coming relate to the two half of Christ’s prophetic week. The first half of the week He raised up Israel the Church; and in the second half of the week He will raise up Israel the Kingdom.
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