Fresco in the Dura-Europos Synagogue of the capture of the Ark by the Philistines.
The Philistines later returned the Ark to Kiriath-Jearim (Public Domain).
Kiriath-Jearim and the End of British Israelism
By Scout
The town of Kiriath-Jearim is mentioned a number of times in the Old Testament and rightly so. It may have been remote from Jerusalem but it seemed to have hosted some of the significant upheavals in the history of ancient Israel. It was originally Hivite town. The Hivites were a branch of the Canaanites and when they inhabited Kiriath-Jearim it was a place of Baal worship. Joshua conquered Kiriath-Jearim and may have changed its name from Kiriath-Baal to Kiriath-Jearim. Later when the Philistines returned the captured Ark to Israel, it first resided in Kiriath-Jearim where it stayed about twenty years. Urijah the son of Shemaiah, a prophet and contemporary of Jeremiah, operated from Kiriath-Jearim. Finally, Jews from Kiriath-Jearim were exiled to Babylon. And now it is the place of the very first excavation of the burial site of an ancient Israelite family where the ancient DNA has been analyzed.
This finding is a significant milestone in the invalidation of British-Israelism by the science of genetics. The study of ancient DNA is called archaeogenetics. This beginning point in the archaeogenetics of Palestine augurs a bleak future of declining credibility for those who make British-Israelism (BI) a part of their theology.
The Excavation in Brief
Tomb raiders hit a location in the village of Abu Ghosh which adjoins Kiriath-Jearim. And Kiriath-Jearim is about 15 kilometers west of Jerusalem. It is on the ancient border between Judah and Benjamin. Typically, archaeologists in Israel would avoid disturbing the remains of the dead but in this case their hand was forced. The tomb was damaged by both construction and looting so the archaeologists did a rapid salvage excavation. The tomb contained at least 10 people along with some ceramic grave goods. This included three adult men and three adult women and four children. It is probable that these people came from the Israelite elite. The contents of the tomb were dated to around 750-650 BCE. This places it in the latter part of the Iron Age or the late First Temple period. (See Reference 2.)
The Haplogroups
This is the first recovery of DNA from ancient Israelites living around the First Temple period. Professor David Reich, a geneticist from Harvard University, worked on the genetic analysis. The recovery technique involved using the petrous bone, an area of the skull just behind the ear. This piece of the skull is rich in DNA. Extraction was done on two individuals, a male and a female, and haplogroups were identified. The Y chromosome haplogroup of the man was J2. Both the male and female had mtDNA and the haplogroups were T1a and H87. (Y chromosome haplogroups are inherited through the masculine line and mtDNA is inherited through the female line.) Haplogroup J is quite common in the Middle East and is carried by Jews, Arabs and others. Spencer Wells, in a National Geographic study, identified the ancient Canaanites as haplogroup J. And several ancient Assyrian burials yielded Y chromosome haplogroup J. (See Note below.) T1a is associated with Neolithic Anatolia and H87 is associated with the Arabian Peninsula. The people of Northwest Europe, on the other hand, are principally haplogroups R1a, R1b and I.
The sample data is small so that we cannot yet draw broad conclusions but more research is on the way. Professor David Reich stated:
This is only partial data with a more detailed paper coming in the future. Sampling DNA from ancient Israelites is exciting, as it should make it possible to test how they relate genetically to previous groups, to contemporary non-Israelite groups, and to people living today. (Reference 3.)
The Implications of the Genetics for British Israelism
None of this is good news for advocates of BI. The research is only at the beginning but the archaeology along with current anthropology of modern races indicate which trajectory this will follow in its implications for BI: the Israelites of the Iron Age are haplogroup J and are not identified with Northwest Europeans. The most effective counter-argument that proponents of BI can make at this time is that the sample is too small to really reveal anything. But this argument will continue to erode as more data comes in.
BI would predict that the burials in the area of the Northern Ten Tribes should be dense with the Northwest European Y chromosome haplogroups R1a and R1b. If these haplogroups are not found or found but not dense, then BI collapses for lack of evidence where evidence should be most easily collected.
There is some possibility that Kiriath-Jearim is a northern kingdom city – likely Benjamite. Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein’s excavations at the site revealed that there was a large artificial platform at the top of the settlement. This accords with the urban planning of the northern kingdom. Armstrongism asserts that it is probable that Benjamin is to be identified with the people of Norway. Yet the Norwegians are dominated by Y chromosome haplogroups I and R1a. If the site at Kiriath-Jearim can be shown to be northern kingdom definitively, this presents a small crisis for Armstrongism. But as more data comes in, the small crisis turns into a great thunderstorm. We are now on the cusp of a definitive archaeogenetic case against BI.
Conclusion
There are many reasons why BI is not tenable. Among these, archaeogenetics will provide an extremely tight case. For BI to be true, the burials of Iron Age Palestine and should be densely populated with Y chromosome R1b and R1a in the area of the northern kingdom. These are the haplogroups of Northwest Europeans. And without BI, the prophetic interpretations of Armstrongism collapse. If the Northwest Europeans are shown to be Goyim, then the Northwest Europeans have no significant role in prophecy. The jury is still out on the archaeogenetic case but we have a preview and the case will be soon resolved as more data accumulates.
Note: The fact that the Israelites, Canaanites, and Assyrians are all principally haplogroup J has implications for the interpretation of the so-called Table of Nations in Genesis 10. One can apply genetic principles to the Table of Nations. This is an approach that some reject because they regard the Table of Nations to be a fantasy. But let us assume that it is real. Genetics requires that the three sons of Noah will have the same Y chromosome haplogroup as Noah. It is highly probable that is haplogroup J. Any other conclusion would lack scientific traction and would require a novel, and likely dubious, solution. This means that Ham, Shem, and Japheth were all haplogroup J. Actually, all masculine lines in the Table of Nations are haplogroup J. The Table implies that everyone in the world should be the same haplogroup and, of course, this is not the case. A better fit to reality is that the Flood devastated a collection of villages belonging to a racially homogenous group of people descended from a man named Adam who was haplogroup J. And that the Table reflects Middle Eastern people who are all of the same race. In fact, the genetics of the Israelites (Shemitic) and the Canaanites (Hamitic) are so close, that some geneticists speculate that the Israelites are a sub-group of the Canaanites. While this contradicts the Biblical record, it indicates this closeness between the Israelites and Canaanites. The Biblical record would support the idea that they are “cousins.” Genetics has shown that the modern descendants of Canaan are the Lebanese.
References
1. Blenkinsopp, Joseph. “Kiriath-Jearim and the Ark.”
2. David, Ariel. “In First, Archaeologists Extract DNA of Ancient Israelites,” Haaretz online News.
3. Shous, Ari, et al. “Ancient Mitochondrial DNA Analysis of an Iron II Burial Cave on the Slope of Tel Kiriath-Yearim.”
77 comments:
Thank you Scout for your post.
Your comment ‘There are many reasons why BI is not tenable’ hits the nail on the head.
Taking off the rose tainted BI glasses once worn in the reading of scripture for so many of us, has revealed a Bible at odds with much of Armstrongism.
This theology/ideology has no foundation in fact or reality and scripture.
The truth is indeed out there and it is not BI, no matter how it’s dwindling group of supporters spin it.
Great job Scout!!!
Do they want to take a DNA tests, of course NOT!
To even say that the northern ten tribes stayed racially pure throughout the Assyrian captivity is crazy, nonetheless thousands of years later up to this present day is even more crazy.
For instance Mario Hernandez(LCG) a few months ago wrote a decent article called, "THE TRUE CAUSE OF TROUBLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST!" and he mentioned how " The people of modern Iran are roughly 50 to 60 percent Persian in origin" He sites how many of these related people had migrations and intermarriages and other factors. But see they won't use that same logic with BI.
Thanks for the effort taken to produce the post. An interesting read.
Some time ago when I was examining the BI theory and began to appreciate more about Armstrong's claims which he copied from a previously existing theory, I came across some DNA studies.
Two relatively recent British studies have been published: “The Origin of the British”; and “Blood of the Isles” - these studies showed that significant proportions of Wales 81% , and Ireland 88%, and England 68%, have DNA links to a known origin along the Atlantic seaboard.
In Ireland, another DNA study is the “IRISH DNA Atlas”” (2017) a comprehensive record at that time which is ongoing. Another study in 2018 (Insular Celtic population structure and genomic footprints of migration) was wider.
DNA studies are of interest as such analysis explains how what is known as SNPs are passed down through the generations. The more SNPs we share with another person, for example, the more likely we have a similar, and more recent, ancestry. Thus, ancestry is estimated by comparing the results with a genetic database of people with known ancestries. With a reasonable level of confidence knowing room for error, it may be determined if a person has, for example, Viking / Scandinavian ancestry; or Japanese.
Assuming Ireland or Britain were founded by immigrant Hebrew tribes, as the Anglo/Israel theory holds, one would expect it to be apparent, in one form or another, in these scientific studies. Keep in mind the theory is that Hebrew tribes were the origin of these nations.
The scientists involved consider these genetic markers as described above to be relevant in tracing such broad ancestry. I am not referring to race, rather broad ancestral origin to which such studies have relevance.
A reader may access these studies. Noteworthy, I found no mention of any indicator of any broad ancestral link to Hebrew origins.
- it has already been established from the other information apart from these studies why this theory is bankrupt.
That Armstrong was able to spin his theory under the guise of being chosen to carry a warning message, and even in the face of a record of prophetic failure, and while having blatantly copied it from a theory that was around before him, shows his masterly skills of deception. It also shows just how gullible we were.
When are you going to put ALL your anti-British Israelisim charts on your blog NO2HWA? ALL of them.
“Extraction was done on two individuals, a male and a female, and haplogroups were identified.”
How did the archaeogeneticists determine how these two individuals identified? And why are these people not being Canceled, as is happening with folks like Elizabeth Weiss?
(And just so no one is confused, my pronouns are “brilliant/brilliantness.” š )
Addendum
“ it has already been established from the other information apart from these studies why this theory is bankrupt.”
I see these dna studies as articles of interest. There are studies from authoritative sources - encyclopedias, museums, reputable journals, authors of good standing, history books, and the scriptures - which on their own allow us to conclude the Anglo/Israel doctrine makes sense.
I find it remarkable no one in offshoots reflect upon the fact Armstrong plagiarized this theory. It didn’t get revealed to him as something original
The Museum of the Jewish people commented in part concerning this theory;
“The supposed connection between the people of the British Isles and the Ten Lost Tribes started with the ideas of Richard Brothers (1757-1824). This Canadian-born, self-proclaimed prophet, who spent his later years of life incarcerated in a lunatic asylum, founded a millenarian movement that towards the end of the 18th century attracted many adherents in England. According to Brothers, salvation would include the Jews’ return to the Land of Israel, including that of the Ten Lost Tribes.”
Armstrongist BI asserts that small groups of Hebrews INTERMINGLED with vast local groups (that by the way in Ireland are established to have come from the Anatolian Peninsula as farmers - thousands of years before the small groups of Hebrews).. the "relevant" thing only being the ELITES being transplanted....
Nck
2) Relevant to my first posting is that that is the EXACT reason why "we" would "listen" to HWA being from "David Royal" line as the vast majority of WCG members knew in their hearts that they were "spiritual Israel" and OBVIOUSLY not physical as of all the members from Italian, Mexican, German etc decent.... mixed at very best....
It was ONLY about the cultural aspect, race being overwhelmingly secundary.... BTW this is all 33rd degree Scottish rite masonry, notwithstanding Armenian evangelists in wcg writing secondary booklets for the French etc
Nck
Where is Doug Becker when we need him? He was posting about how DNA Refutes BI long before it was cool. Seems nothing he said has been overturned by further research.
I suspect it just conjecture to see Armstrong as having any link to a royal line. Everything that guy says has to be watered right down or turned around 180 degrees. A terrrible piece of works
Lee T. Walker wrote, "How did the archaeogeneticists determine how these two individuals identified? "
I am taking a guess at what you mean by this jumbled sentence. You might try reading your writing before you publish it. I do that. I don't catch everything but I think I catch the big stuff.
Circumstances of burial strongly suggest that these people are Israelites. But archaeologist could not find inscriptions that might seal the deal. It is possible that they could be Canaanites. And there were other Near Eastern people living in Palestine at that time.
This is the difficulty associated with small samples. As more discoveries are made and sample data developed, these issues will be clarified. Moreover, the work of these archaeologists is not finished. I am expecting more data to be reported. For instance, geneticists may identify a subclade that distinguishes Israelites from Canaanites. Or an inscription or a cultural artifact may be found.
We are just at the beginning of this.
Scout
NCK wrote, "Armstrongist BI asserts that small groups of Hebrews INTERMINGLED with vast local groups"
Wow, NCK, your writing is a jumble and I may not have understood it. The picture I get is that you believe that the Armstrongist form of BI asserts that England is not really Manasseh but that England just has a few Manassites mixed in with a large population of Gentiles. And, further, that most WCG members believed that they were only spiritual Israelites.
This view would certainly be a counter to the genetic material that is emerging. But the fact is, I cannot recall anything like this from my 30 years as an Armstrongist. Before I would formulate a reponse to this, I would need to see some references in classical Armstrongist publications that support this viewpoint.
Scout
Scout
Well, Scout, I would have to say that what was "officially" taught and what the membership at large thought/understood/believed are going to be different things - the latter is going to vary a lot more than the former depending on location, culture, how much any rando member actually understood about it, etc. (Of course, you can also delve into a lot more speculation on "what they thought" versus what was officially printed, too.)
If I can take a moment to break it down, Armstrong's version of BI actually involves THREE migrations:
- a supposed colony of Israelites who arrived Ireland via ships before the United Monarchy period (pre-David),
- At least 400 years later, Jeremiah spiriting Zedekiah's daughter and a few other muckety-mucks off to Ireland to join the supposed Israelites already there,
- And a "somehow, sometime" migration from old Assyria into continental Europe and some diffusing into the British Isles over time. (I guess you could almost say that diffusion is a fourth migration, but that's another subject)
But, for example, take a place like northern Michigan, where so many white folks are Russian or Scandinavian. Would they sit in their saunas and take a different view of it versus their flat-faced Scots-Brit cousins in the South with their Jeep Cherokee Princess great-grandmas?
As always, although indigenous peoples (Picts) play a huge role in the British melting pot, the later conquerors are portrayed by BI theorists as having the primary roles, the only ones that "count". Cue Simple Minds' "Don't You (Forget About Me)"
God promised Abraham that his descendants would "possess the gates of their enemies" (Genesis 22:17; 24:60). At the end of WW2, this included the Suez and Panama Canal, Gibraltar, Malta, Cyprus, Aden, the Maldive Islands, Sri Lanka, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bermuda Islands, Falkland Islands, St. Helena, Ascension Island, Mauritius, the Seychelles, Diego Garcia, Guam, Puerto Rico and a military base in Cuba.
To me, such basics trumps the "sacred science" (ie, science tortured to fit the narrative) of the cult of atheism.
Hey Scout,
I'll get back to you later.
Yet I'm currently watching that Ruben/Benjamin guy having a party for some Greek (Benjaminite) Sports Games...
nck
“Science”
People do need to beware of deliberate con-artists arising and calling their latest scam “science.”
Remember the Piltdown Man hoax from 1912 until 1953 that fooled a lot of people for 41 years. It did NOT prove the theory of evilution.
Remember the Covid-19 Plandemic/Scamdemic. There was no pandemic, just a change in the definition of what the word “pandemic” meant. There was no vaccine, just a change in the definition of what a vaccine is so that people could be tricked into getting the dangerous mRNA gene therapy shots.
Some people mindlessly go along with whatever the latest deliberate con-artist tells them is “science.”
Yet, you want to stand on a tortured twisting of verses to make it mean modern "sea gates" of various types. Heal thyself!
America had over 6 million Germans who entered the country during the 1800's and over 5 million Italians came from the 1880's to the 1940s. Not to mention the other European nationalities. See immigration to America even the immigration flooding into Europe confuses the tribal doctrine to understand prophecy by Armstrongism.
To Anon 11:00
God also promised that through faith, even the Gentiles would be blessed like Abraham who didn't need a the levitical priesthood (Galatians 3:8-9). Paul didn't mention anything concerning some sea gates related to their salvation. It has nothing to do with my salvation. The basics of the New Covenant have to do with spiritually being blessed. Jesus looks at Abraham's descendants much differently than you do (John 8:39).
Coincidences?
It is very interesting that the USA and Britain had the Holy Bible and translated it into so many different languages and spread it all over the world.
It is very interesting that the USA and Britain became the greatest nation and company of nations ever.
It is very interesting that the USA and Britain are now turning totally against the God of the Holy Bible and embracing the utter depravity of the godless.
Now watch and see if punishment from God befalls these great nations.
12.27pm, These translations use the words "gates of their/his enemies:" CSB, DRA, ESV, EXB, HCSB, ISV, JUB, NABRE. I believe that "sea gates" to be self evident considering world history. Rommel probably would have won in Africa during WW2 if it wasn't for British planes from Malta sinking so many of his supply ships.
Who cares about Armstrongism and its Effed up prophecy mold? We (Baby Boomers) won! We got to have the lives HWA told us we never would! And, now, Gen X is experiencing the lives HWA never even envisioned. I worry about the Millennials and Gen Z because of climate change, but will be long gone before having to become a climate refugee myself.
Encouraging news is that the '24 election is no longer checkmate either way! Still could actually have some good years left! If not, hey I've still
got that carton of Newports left for election night!
Here's the math I like! The people who let HWA get away with 1972-75 have endured a 50 year Tribulation, by virtue of remaining as members of the cult! The original tribulation was only supposed to be bad for 3-1/2 years! What can we say to that, other than Raca?
Well anon 1:40:00 PM PDT
Coincidences……...the above points you raised have all been addressed here on this blog in detail many times over, so you are flogging an old horse.
And the points you raise are not vindication of BI in the least.
I would agree that as the USA and Britain and the western world as a whole abandon their Christian heritage and its moral guidelines, our societies are becoming more fractured.
But that is not evidence of BI.
The ancient pagan heathen peoples that inhabit Western Europe and the British islands were blessed by the arrival of Christianity
that brought with it moral guidelines to allow the building of more ‘civilised’ societies.
There is no doubt much more needs to be done lol.
One is reminded of what the Encyclopaedia Britannia writes ‘ the theory of British Israelism rests on premises which are deemed by scholars both theological and anthropological to be utterly unsound’….
1.40 pm
The promises made to Abraham are explained by both the apostles Peter and Paul as referring to the blessings of the Gospel.
Peter quotes them at the conclusion of his speech in the temple precincts after the cure of the lame man, and states definitely that the blessing promised through Abraham and his seed to all families of the earth consists of conversion and that the promise is fulfilled through the Gospel - see Acts chapter 3
Paul similarly explains the promises as fulfilled in the justification of the Gentiles by faith, and declares that the seed referred to in the promise is Christ (Gal. chapter 3).
Paul also states that the promise to Abraham that he should be the father of many nations is fulfilled in the call of the Gentiles through the Gospel (Rom. 4 v 16, 17).
In Acts 15 v 14-18 we have the quotation in full of Amos 9 v 11, 12 and a valuable interpretation of it - prediction of future blessing in the book of Amos, are explained as having their fulfilment in the salvation of the Gentiles through the Gospel, which had at that time begun.
As predominantly Gentile nations USA and UK had been drawn to a belief in the gospel. Many fine people were believers and sought God
Their rise to power is totally unrelated to any prophetic theory. Especially the fake Armstrong one.
But many like to pretend otherwise.
1:40 LOL, the Holy Bible was written in Hebrew/Aramaic and then Greek, you act as though it was originally written in English originally. In the other religions of the world, their religious text are synchronous with their original language still spoken of today.
"It is very interesting that the USA and Britain are now turning totally against the God of the Holy Bible and embracing the utter depravity of the godless."
NOW are turning totally against the God?
That's how you're deceived. When did they ever follow the God of the Bible as a whole nation? Never. Britain broke away from the Church of Rome and basically became a protestant Church of England. Then people fled England such as the puritans or pilgrims to seek religious freedom from their own descended people. And honestly I think the practice of colonialism and slavery is godless to other human beings made in the image of God.
"It is very interesting that the USA and Britain became the greatest nation and company of nations ever."
There are various examples down through human history of kingdoms or empires that could be described as a great nation and company of nations. Such as the Spanish Empire or the Ottoman Empire, or even before. But the Bible doesn't say the word "ever" and that us subjective.
God punishes all great nations throughout history. It's a rise and fall of nations.
Anonymous 11:00 wrote,"To me, such basics trumps the "sacred science" (ie, science tortured to fit the narrative) of the cult of atheism."
An oddball interpretation of history in no way trumps hard science. That is like saying Santa Claus trumps astronomy. You need to understand that you have been brainwashed and you cannot recognize either science and rational argument when you encouter it. Regarding sea gates, have a look at:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-gates-of-your-enemies-anglo.html
This may help you, but I doubt it.
Scout
Anonymous 12:27 wrote, "Some people mindlessly go along with whatever the latest deliberate con-artist tells them is “science.”
This denial of science is breathtaking. You need to go away, come to some understanding of genetics and then come back and tell me why it is a con. BI is a con. But your attitude tells me that BI has a bright future among those out of touch with reality.
Scout
Anonymous 1:40 wrote, "It is very interesting that the USA and Britain became the greatest nation and company of nations ever."
Gird up your loins and read the following article. Pump some iron:
https://armstrongismlibrary.blogspot.com/2022/03/the-gates-of-your-enemies-anglo.html
Scout
5:34 pm
1:40 LOL, the Holy Bible was written in Hebrew/Aramaic and then Greek, you act as though it was originally written in English originally. In the other religions of the world, their religious text are synchronous with their original language still spoken of today.
Do you normally laugh at people you converse with trying to have a conversation with you.
Some would see it as being impolite.
The Greek language was commonly spoken by gentiles in the first century.
Translation from Greek into other languages began very early on in the Christian era - before the end of the second century.
The Septuagint was almost always the source used for Old Testament passages at this beginning stage. The Septuagint was a Hebrew to Greek translation that was completed earlier in second and first centuries BC for Greek-speaking Jews
Much Later came the Latin version then several hundred years later the English
This history of translations is known by any interested and it has got nothing to do with the rise to power of nations.
The points you make have no validity but if you wish to believe such is so this of course is your freedom
I am of the view these countries of which we speak USA etc are predominantly gentile and as in the early church times , where most converts were gentile, they too had an attraction to the gospel of our Lord.
This began our Christian hermitage.
7:10 Sorry for being impolite, but I had another chuckle, LOL. This woman almost hit me for laughing at her when she was distress. I never did that again around her. But I laugh at people who dismiss science, but say they believe in God.
See God is the Lifegiver, and I have studied life science. Again LOL, its funny I know, but impolite to laugh at someone who dismissed science but they claim to believe in God. I will leave this post alone, as Scout has reclaimed it.
9:16 wrote, "But I laugh at people who dismiss science, but say they believe in God."
This is an important observation. People who counterpose science against God, like some Armstrongists and evangelicals do, seem to deny God as Creator. It is as if they must defend their religion against God's Creation and this casts the Creation in the role of something evil. Genetics is a hard science just like chemistry and physics. In fact, it is based on chemistry and physics. To compare it to the Piltdown incident is to utterly misunderstand the nature of science. To think that genetics is a transient scam that everyone will forget about in a couple of years is naive in the extreme.
Humans can make mistakes at the theoretical level. Einstein in his theoretical work thought intuitively that the Cosmos was static and not expanding. So he added a factor to his mathematics that made the Cosmos non-expanding when the math revealed that it was expanding. Later data caused him to recant. Genetics is not a theory. It is a vetted science with reproducible results. It is not the "theory" of genetics - so flimsy that someone with a BA in Theology from Ambassador College could credibly deny it. The Armstrongist pulpit cannot alter reality or even try to.
What we know of God comes from the Book of His Words and also the Book of His Works. I do not deny mysticism and special revelation. But these two Books are what most of us have. And the two are not in opposition. They are both authored by God and are consistent because he is consistent. If you have a theology that denies the God-created nature of the Cosmos then there is something wrong with your theology.
The science of genetics indicates that the people of Northwest Europe are Gentile. My little essay here states that genetics is going to reveal data in the near future that will demonstrate even further that BI has no plausibility. This will be because the data will show that there has never been a presence of Northwest European people in ancient Palestine. And if the USA and Britain are mentioned in prophecy, say in Revelation, it is where Gentile nations are mentioned.
Scout
Samson literally possessed the gates of his enemies... by walking off with them. :)
Anyway..... RSK explained most of it...... most.... because, The French Work had an additional booklet by Dibar a Partyman and of course GTA more about the Spanish route and Cimerians
All reason enough for the writers of the Bestseller Holy Grail Holy Blood the ones that even more well known Dan Brown plagiarized, to enquire at the WCG communication department headed by Hulme and contact EU officials.... Great stuff that Messianic Legacy stuff, the Merovingian....
and Scout person
Nck
To Scout "And if the USA and Britain are mentioned in prophecy, say in Revelation, it is where Gentile nations are mentioned."
Yep, over the years I have come to that same conclusion looking at things in another perspective than armstrongism. Like since there are/were so many European nationalities that migrated to America, what if God still looks at them as the King of the North or the North so to speak. What if America is that empire, then you've got a whole new ball game. I am not saying it is, but your statement above very well could be true.
Anon 9:16
To Anon 9:03
my response to:
"This history of translations is known by any interested and it has got nothing to do with the rise to power of nations.
"I am of the view these countries of which we speak USA etc are predominantly gentile and as in the early church times , where most converts were gentile, they too had an attraction to the gospel of our Lord."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree, I view America/Britain etc. as predominantly gentile in nature as well. However when referring to the rise and power of nations in regards to language. I was referring to how nations like the Greek Empire ruled and then the language spread, when the Spanish Empire ruled certain areas and their the language spread, the English Empire ruled and it's language spread. Once a kingdom or empire rules their language sometimes takes over in other territories. Thus translations come into play. You broke it down wonderfully in the beginning starting with Greek to Latin, but those kingdoms are a major part of it.
Totally correctimundo, 1:34. If the Germanic tribes who settled in Western Europe had been the lost ten tribe of Israel, the Brits wouldn't have picked up English, they'd be speaking Hebrew, Akkadian, Aramaic, or would have at some point. There is a wide variety of languages in Western Europe, some of which are "Romantic" languages (Derived from Roman, Latin). From a linguistic standpoint, BI makes no sense at all.
It is never been clear to me how someone can conclude that a historical circumstance is a better indicator of national identity than genetics. "A nation and a company of nations" is a more convincing criterion than DNA. A country translating and distributing Bibles in multiple languages somehow means more in determing national identity than DNA.
Then there is the Lousiana Purchase. Let me say a few words about that one. HWA's model concerning the physical blessings on Israel is invalid. This is a huge issue. When debating BI, many will simply fall back upon the acquisition of the Louisiana Purchase as the pivotal point in their continued belief in BI. Even scientific arguments such as the use of genetics are disregarded because of the Seven Times Punishment and the rise of the United States through the acquisition of the Louisiana Purchase is just so convincing.
In brief, here is the problem. HWA did some Millerite arithmetic on Leviticus 26:18 and came up with 2520 years. See Chapter 10 of USBC In Prophecy,1972. This period of punishment was supposed to end for "Israel" around 1800 AD. In 1803, the the US purchased the Lousiana Territory. This is regarded as not only a nice fit with Biblical prophecy by most Armstrongists but incontrovertible proof that the United States is Israel. But this model collapses when one considers who the US purchased the Lousiana Territory from. They purchased if from the French First Republic. And the French are the tribe of Reuben according to Armstrongist BI advocates. And France owned the Lousiana Territory beginning in 1699, 101 years before the expiration date on the Seven Times Punishment in 1800. This means that what happened in 1800 was not the lifting of the punishment as HWA's model prescribes but the handing over of the Lousiana Purchase from one "Israelite" tribe to another "Israelite" tribe. And Israel had already been in possession of the putative great Abrahamic blessing for 101 years.
HWA does not mention France in regard to the Louisiana Purchase at all. He only mentions France as a tribe of Israel and identified with Reuben. I believe that this is because bringing France in the picture makes it clear that HWA's intrepretation of the Seven Times Punishment is invalidated. The 2520 year span, an ironclad promise from God, is violated
Whatever that period means, it is not what HWA said it meant. And it does not underpin the BI identification of the United States with Israel.
Scout
Not really Nck. Herbie developed the identities based largely on the wide culture of the people within each European country…not merely the elites.
Great Point about that Louisiana Purchase conundrum Scout!! And speaking of Louisiana, the minister John Ogwyn of LCG wrote his version of USBC in prophecy and he too used the same talking point. And they never figured out the friendly fire from Ruben. It's like they can't even improve their talking points from HWAs versions.
I also always wondered about the French under Napoleon being the beast power but at the same time being (Ruben) Israel. They respond and say that Napoleon was born on that island Corsica.
They tend to "pick" their selected certain historical events to start using their math (number counting) to prove their prophetic points. They use their human wisdom. LOL
Making a mountain out of a molehill again. Partial data isn't going to contradict B-I.
The writer asks why there isn't any NW European DNA in the 2 samples? Well, Kiriath-Jearim was the area of the southern kingdom, Haplo J members. It's the northern tribes that went NW. Why should it baffle us that Jews are J while Benjamin is R1A and I of NW Europe (these two tribes having different mothers)? Is DNA going to determine your ethnicity and nationality if Jews, Arabs and Canaanites and Assyrians have similar DNA? You're really narrowing down here, I see, with archeogenetics. Is it an exact science when all people have descended from Noah (who likely was a haplo J)? Why don't all ethnicities then have haplo J if you say that it undoubtedly comes from the father? If Canaanites are related genetically to Israel, then can archeogenetics determine races or the goiim from the Israelites? Yair Davidy wrote that DNA can change over time due to nature or environment. So is this not an inexact science?
The NW Europeans with R1a, R1b and I, who were they? Spanish, French and German? Or Brits, Irish, Scots and Scandinavians? Be specific. And does it factor in migrations over hundreds and thousands of years?
Do you have proof that the Northern Israelites were Haplo J and not R1a, R1b and I? You do know that Judah and Benjamin had different mothers and that there was plenty of intermarriage over hundreds of years? Keep in mind that the US and British peoples of Joseph had an Egyptian mother when Joseph married Aseneth, so you should account for that in the DNA.
HWA probably speculated when he said that Benjamin might be Norway. I doubt it because that tribe was a part of the south. Davidy (who refers to Scripture, the rabbis, history, linguistics and legends in his research) says that Norway is Naphtali (with Sweden being Gad) and that Benjamin is in Belgium. Therefore if Benjamin is found in Belgium, there is your R1a proof for an Israelite NW European presence.
You're not going to find your answers in DNA but in the kind of research that Yair Davidy is doing.
Not good enough, 4:29. I believe HWA referred to French-speaking Canadians, not the gentile French Europeans.
The gentiles clung to the isles and coastlands over time while Israelites moved inland and westward.
It's been the rule of the gentiles ever since Israel and Judah were dispersed for their sins, with Babylon, Persia, The Greeks, Romans, and Roman revivals dominating the world until about 1800, with the rise of America and Britain as world powers.
You can't undo history at this late date.
Good point, 1:34, about the translations linked to the rise to power of nations. I was going to say the same thing. If the Bible is being taught and the faith is being spread and practiced in that country, that opens the door to translations being printed. (But if there is tyranny and oppression and domineering, as there was from Rome, it won't be)
Come on, 3:11. Languages and cultures are lost over time because you interact with different cultures and languages over time. The northern kingdom was on the run for centuries. When you move across different cultures, ethnicities and time zones, you're going to lose your native culture and a knowledge of your roots. Linguistics supports B-I. Check with Yair Davidy. As said above, you need a dominant culture to move in to set the social standards, as the Anglo-Saxons did when they arrived in Britain.
These Armstrongites experience British Israelism with the intensity of a sexual experience! That's why I call them B.I. Sexual!
I think I read somewhere about endless genealogies that bring up questions........
Hi Earl,
The identities of the European peoples were closely linked and developed by the elites....
Especially those (protestants) who broke away from the Pagan Egyptian Catholic Habsburg Pharaos......entire dissertations are written on that topic.
Does it constitute proof. Of course not. Only that BI is far older than even the 19th century... It can be traced back to 16th century and the "Messianic" cause and line of the European Kings to the Middle Ages and before.......the Tribal Franks and Merovingians etc
nck
There’s a problem 8:25 with this logic:
“ Come on, 3:11. Languages and cultures are lost over time because you interact with different cultures and languages over time. The northern kingdom was on the run for centuries. When you move across different cultures, ethnicities and time zones, you're going to lose your native culture and a knowledge of your roots. Linguistics supports B-I. Check with Yair Davidy. As said above, you need a dominant culture to move in to set the social standards, as the Anglo-Saxons did when they arrived in Britain.“
——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————-
If languages and cultures are lost over time because of interacting with different cultures then that means that there was mixing and intermarriages with different ethnicities. You mentioned ethnicities, and losing your native culture. And over centuries and a couple millennia that’s exactly what can occur ( you’re going to lose your native). You can’t have it both ways, oh they lost their language, but somehow they remained racially pure.LOL
You mention Saxons, now are we taking about Saxon Germany.
A white Anglo Saxon cannot be native to America. They cannot be descended from America. They are descended from Europe.
Yea Paul was right 1 Timothy 1:4
Anonymous 7:43 wrote, “Partial data isn't going to contradict B-I.”
The archaeogenetic data is currently small in sample size. It is not otherwise partial. My point is that as more data accumulates, the idea of BI will end as anything but a fantasy. You ask a number of questions and some of them are a simple matter of misunderstanding the working of genetics. I will answer a few of your questions.
You asked, “Why should it baffle us that Jews are J while Benjamin is R1A and I of NW Europe (these two tribes having different mothers)?”
Every male inherits one Y chromosome haplogroup. It is passed down through the masculine line. Abraham cannot give rise to two groups of people with different y chromosome haplogroups. The modern Jews are predominately haplogroup J. Northwest Europeans are y chromosome haplogroup R. They are widely separated on the genetic scale. The fact that they may descend from different women has no affect on the y chromosome haplogroup. It will only affect the mitochondrial haplogroup (mtDNA). Each person has a y chromosome haplogroup inherited from the male line and a mitochondrial haplogroup inherited from the female line. Abraham cannot be the progenitor of the Northwest Europeans and the Jews at the same time. Jesus was prophesied to come to the tribe of Judah. So, there is no doubt that the Jews are descended from Abraham. This makes the y haplogroup R NW Europeans unrelated to Abraham.
You asked, “Why don't all ethnicities then have haplogroup J if you say that it undoubtedly comes from the father?”
If the Biblical account were true as traditionally interpreted, then all people in the world should be the same y chromosome haplogroup. There are instead many haplogroups because haplogroups evolve. The original haplogroup was haplogroup A. The rest of the haplogroups mutated from A over and incredibly long time. All the haplogroups are related in what is called a phylogenetic tree. We’re all related - like Paul says. We are all descended from a Black Man who was haplogroup A0 and lived in south central Africa 200,000 to 300,000 years ago (See Wikipedia article, “Y-chromosomal Adam”). I don’t have the time to go into this. But the clear indication of genetics is that Adam was a relatively modern person living in the Near East who was haplogroup J. And all of his descendants are haplogroup J. He is the “father” of all only in a spiritual sense. The clans of Noah contained in what the KJV translators called “The Table of Nations” are racially the same people. That is why the Canaanites (Hamtici) and Assyrians (Shemitic) have the same y chromosome haplogroup. They are both descended from Adam.
There is much here. I know you are accustomed to listening to and living by sound bites from the Armstrongist pulpit. This, however, requires a little study to understand. I don’t know who Yair Davidiy is but I do know that haplogroups change but over hundreds of thousand of years via mutation. I would suggest that you try to read some actual material about genetic science. Read the Wikipedia article. Understand that nothing I have written is off-the-wall or arcane. This is just standard, whitebread genetic science.
Scout
The proof is actually from the their origin. Take for instance Abraham's union with Hagar. Hagar was an Egyptian woman who was dark skinned. They had Ishmael who is mixed, and that is what the arabs look like. So in like manner lets get to Joseph.
So what Armstrongism doesn't like to talk about is Joseph's union with Asenath (Egyptian).
Genesis 41:50 Joseph’s wife, Asenath, was the daughter of Potiphera, the priest in the city of On. Before the first year of hunger came, Joseph and Asenath had two sons.
Ephraim and Manasseh were mixed, and based on their mother not being an Israelite they had to go through the adoption ceremony (Ge. 48:5-12). But if you attempt to change the mothers racial identity, well then? It's also a problem with armstrongism that they don't want to start at the beginning (Joseph/Asenath), and that's the fundamental problem right there.
Scout is correct by the way.
8:06
Ancient Egyptians are the same as Armenians.
nck
Another detail which was left out, 8:06 is that Asenath's particular skin pigmentation is not documented or described in the Bible. Egypt is in the north of Africa, and there were numerous Nubian Egyptians, who were black. It is actually possible that Asenath was Nubian. We just don't know, but could you imagine HWA meeting her in the Kingdom and experiencing yet another total shock, as he realizes that God deliberately chose some multiracial individuals to bestow His profound blessing upon?
Months before ever hearing HWA on the radio, or reading WCG literature, I had this interesting experience.
My dad was stationed in England at Greenham Common Air Force base for three years. While there I went to an American boarding school near London. While there the students were taken on a tour of English homes of the elites of the past. One I remember was a large structure with a very long hallway one walked into when entering the building. Now here is the part that interested me, and might have some relevance to the present post. Oh, this tour was sometime in the 1955/56 years.
Ok, after we entered the building the British tour guide led us through the very long hallway pointing out various items of interest. Just beyond the halfway point the guide stopped us in front of what resembled an old grandfather clock, but without a clock.
She then opened the front of the “grandfather clock” and showed us what was a long scroll with a long list of names on it. It was about six feet long from top to bottom. After looking at it for a couple minutes she then rolled it so more names could appear. After a pause to let us see some of the details she said this. “What we are looking at is the official lineage of the British royal family going all the way back through king David to Adam.”
So, how is it that that claim was made, and that ancient scroll was written, way before HWA ever took his first breath?
I read some of the names as she unrolled the scroll back.
So, the Royal family was bamboozled as this post would imply, or there’s more to this story than just dna testing.
A few weeks or months after this I first heard the World Tomorrow radio program.
Are you sure the scroll was authentic? The so-called "Dead Sea Scrolls" are disintegrating, due to age.
"Haplogroups evolve over time", 6:58? Oh, I see, that narrows it down to an exact science.
And you didn't answer all my questions. Were both specimens haplo J? And what are you trying to say? That N&S Israel must only be J and not R? That Norwegians are gentiles?
You trust the science too much when even scientists get it wrong and carry biases. You can't read everything about a person just from his DNA.
To 11:15
“What we are looking at is the official lineage of the British royal family going all the way back through king David to Adam.”
LOL. We all come from Adam or shall I say Noah. And somebody black got on that boat, unlike the coloring books like to depict.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.
So I could care less if they are king, noble or peasant, we all come from Adam and we all have sinned. Ain't nobody better than anyone else.
You have an opportunity to be a king when Messiah returns, but you hearts desire is the british royal family that has german lineage.
Someone wrote ‘linguistics supports BI..check with Yair Davidy’….
Well no in fact linguistics don’t support BI.
I won’t quote the numerous references to back this claim, I just can’t be bothered with this nonsense, but saying ‘check with Yair Davidy’ , is about as reliable a source to go to as a politicians word.
The holes in BI are just so glaring, as this blog has pointed out many times.
Yea, the holes in BI are wide open. The British people migrate to America and then America all of a sudden becomes Manasseh in the 1600s-1700s when the two sons were originally twins. I guess the only people that left Britain to come to America were of Manasseh (I guess that's how they could spin it). It's comical, yet sad because it ain't about that anymore. The apostles certainly weren't on that. It's about The Almighty and His Anointed One! And the faith that is required.
Anonymous 12:46 - my responses follow
"Haplogroups evolve over time", 6:58? Oh, I see, that narrows it down to an exact science."
Genetics is an exact science. Evolution does not alter that. All biological creatures evolve. Mutation and natural selection affect them all. In addition, God may manipulate genomes.
"And you didn't answer all my questions. Were both specimens haplo J? And what are you trying to say? That N&S Israel must only be J and not R? That Norwegians are gentiles?"
One person was haplopgroup J - the male. The other person was female and females do not have a y chromosome haplogroup. She had one of the mtDNA haplogroups. Israel cannot be
two peoples with two different haplogroups. Abraham can only pass down one y chromosome haplogroup. If the British are Israel, then the Jews are not. If the Jews are Israel, then the British are not. It is that simple. Jesus came to the Jews. This makes the British Gentiles. It is the case that the British haplogroup R and the Jewish haplogroup J are not even closely related. And, yes, the Norwegians are Gentiles along with the other Scandinavians and Northwest Europeans.
"You trust the science too much when even scientists get it wrong and carry biases."
There is much evidence, research, practical application and validation behind this to consider it might be just hypothetical. That shipped sailed a long time ago. There may be some unresolved minor issues as there are in every field of science. But you cannot escape the fact that it is a legitimate science just like chemistry is.
"You can't read everything about a person just from his DNA."
That's right but that does not invalidate genetics as a science.
The fact is, BI is a poorly crafted fantasy that comes out of the White Supremacist realm and was picked up by HWA back when he was a fan of pyramidology. It was introduced to Millerism by a guy named G.G. Rupert. This is from the Wikipedia article on Rupert:
"Rupert's theories were later influential on Herbert W. Armstrong, who adopted many of his ideas about church eras and Jewish holy day observance, along with his British Israelist genealogies of western peoples. Clarence Orvil Dodd introduced Armstrong to Rupert's ideas."
You believe something that is malarkey and you need to gut up and face it. The only thing that is more condemning than believing malarkey is to continue to believe it after you know better. We all used to believe in BI. We all had to deal with it.
Scout
You are missing my point. The point is, how did the Brit’s come up with that idea before HWA, and the author HWA copied wrote their books on BI? The BI belief was an old belief by the time HWA came along.
Lest anybody should panic . . .
I had a look at Yair Davidiy's BritAm website to try to chase down the idea of haplogroups morphing. The site is very spare in any genetic information. I found one short statement about genetics. This was followed by the statement "Article Being Updated and Revised. Temporarily Inavailable."
So, I have nothing to research or critique.
Haplogroups do change. By mutation over long perioids of time. The idea that a whole nation of people would undergo haplogroup metamorposis at the same time and have it all be the same outcome is absurd. I could not find support for this kind of an idea in any scientific sources dealing with genetics. In other words, the descendents of haplogroup J Abraham did not spontaneously become British carrying haplogroup R.
Davidiy may have a theory, but I would put my money on the hard findings of archaeology and molecular biology.
Scout
The scrolls were probably Victorian when BI was largely accepted within some cycles of the Church of England. That also how HWA's granny got to know about it. Anyway as I said before in an earlier posting the idea is way older coming from Roman Times, Protestant 17th century largely identifying with the People of Israel breaking free from the heathen Catholic Pharao and before that many other ideas like the Declaration of Arbroath stating very clearly that they believe that the Scots come from the Black Sea area...Also many monks making up geneologies that the Austrians are Assyrians etc
The Christian Empire required Proof of Geneology from either Troy or Biblical ancestors.
nck
No they're not. As they keep digging, the proof is in the pudding.
Did Jesus ever mention Manasseh?
nck,
It would be interesting to know how far into history the concept of stealing the identity of the chosen people goes. John of Patmos wrote:
"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."
John makes this a diabolical deception. The entire passage dealing with the church at Philadelphia could be viewed as a credentialing of authentic Christians by God. It is a discussion of identity. God is going to write on the Christian credentialing information. He is going to authenticate their identity. He finishes by saying, "I will write upon him my new name."
The passage seems to imply that the identity of the true Body of Christ, the ekklesia, was challenged by a group of people who claimed to be Jews but were not. It is not clear if this is means racial Jews or spiritual Jews, i.e., biological Jews or Christians. So God will sort things out.
Armstrongists focus almost solely on the name Philadelphia and seem to disregard the identity issue - the real meaning in the passage.
Diese Textstelle ist mir sehr eigentĆ¼mlich. Ich glaub die wirkt rƤtselhaft. Vielleicht werden wir in der Zukunft diese Text besser verstehen. Oder nicht.
Irgendwie groĆe Schwierigkeiten fĆ¼r die Kirche. Nach meiner Meinung.
Scout
Interesting use of the word "stealing" Scout.
Indeed I was speaking about protestant 17th century identification WITH the Moses like Princes delivering their people's from the evil Catholics as even Ottomans were considered the better option.
OK Roman Times.
Christ expressly quotes ROMAN LAW "thereby you are called to ADOPTION"
AS most Roman Emperors were ADOPTED into ancient families, becoming GODS upon ascending to the throne.
Nck
Yea Scout , the "who say they are Jews and are not" could have that dual interpretation. What is interesting is that it's mentioned twice, and as you know some believe in the church eras, so this would mean during the "Phil era" this would occur, according to them. Also the term jew is :tribe of judah in the greek here. But it could also have to do with John 8:36-41, having the works of satan but being jewish biologically. Or as you say, it could be spiritual jews. It's not precisely clear which one.
Yes they are..... Same as Armenians.....
Nck
No Nck they are not. But you can believe what you will. I could go into depth, but this thread isn't about that.
I will give you that they could lean more to the ancient Hittite peoples, as their DNA connect with the ancient peoples of Anatolia. And that would be more related to a Canaanite. Meanwhile the Egyptians originally are a direct son of Ham. So they all come from Ham, but then again they are all related to Noah.
That isn't what this thread is about, ao you believe what you will.
What complete nonsense this Ham SHIT.ALL the latest DNA finds of the ancient Egyptians say they are Anatolian Armenian.
Nck
If some idiot here wishes to dispute the Max Planck Institute than I'm done with this discussion.
Never ever try to debate me.
https://www.peopleofar.com/2017/06/05/ancient-egyptians-were-closer-to-armenians-than-to-africans-a-new-genetics-study-reveals/
Since I am ALWAYS right.
Nck
NCK is just another Bob Thiel. He has to always be right and everyone else is wrong.
NCK said, "If some idiot here wishes to dispute the Max Planck Institute than I'm done with this discussion."
Uh, OK. Ich hab den Artikel gelesen.
The Planck conclusions do not mention Armenia. The webpage you cite is devoted to Armenian history - and attempts to exalt Armenian history. That's fine. but the writer of the article is viewing the Planck results through an Armenian lens.
The Plancksters (alle sehr klug) are saying that the ancient Egyptians have affinities for Anatolia and Europe rather than sub-Saharan Africa. And that they were like other peoples of the Near East. The article writer deduced that if they were like other Near Eastern people then they are like Armenians who fall into the category of "other Near Eastern people." This is not quite saying that the ancient Egyptians and ancient Armenians are they same people. Further data might reveal that they are, who knows, but the researchers are not at that stage yet.
I should say that everyone in Europe has affinities with Anatolia. This is where the ancient agriculturalists that formed and early European population came from.
Modern Europeans are a mix of peoples from the Steppes of Russian, Anatolia and some indigenous Hunter-Gatherers. The different characater of different European nations depend on how these three elements were admixed, that is in what proportions. Plus there were North African and Near Eastern influences in Southern Europe. The Anatolians made it around. Otzi was one of them. And one was found buried with some ancient haplogroup J Assyrians in the north end of the Arabian Peninsula.
What is not true is that the nation of Egypt was a homogenous group of people descended from a man listed among the clans of Noah named Mizraim. Mizraim would have been y chromosome haplogroup J. This haplogroup is found in modern Egypt but it is not dominant. It is entirely possible that the early clan of Mizraim migrated into Egypt, mixed with the much more numerous locals, and caused the Jewish lens to view Egypt as Mizraim. Noah did not give rise to y chromosome haplogroup E and that is was dominates in Egypt.
As for the pharoah that is supposed to be R1b, I am skeptical. Contamination of samples is a real problem with genetic assays. I think the R1b came from someone in the genetics lab. This is why the Egyptians never released the data. Nach meiner Meinung. Es is nicht mein Ziel, dich zu verƤrgern.
Scout
Sound like Nck is worse than Thiel. I bet they have the same DNA.
Although there are some childish remarks there about the article being in a pro Armenian magazine. (because many have cited Max Planck) Scout is basically right.
Most of the ancient peoples have moved over the earth. So ancient DNA is the way to go, definitely not modern nations or for that matter the ridiculous notion that the ancient Egyptians were black or "Arab"....indeed much closer to the Kardashians, which by the way is clear form the portraits of ancient princesses (not the later Roman ones)
Thank you for the German, although I am not, yet........ who knows on the DNA level what Saxon or Frankish noble had for desert......
Nck
This research in the future will also address another odd idea. There are those who believe that the people we know as the Jews are really not the Jews. When I was at Big Sandy, this idea especially focused on the Ashkenazi. Stan Rader was an Ashkenazi and there was a bit of a conspiracy theory afoot.
The fact is Jesus as the Messiah was prophesied to come to the House of Judah. And he entered the world among the Jews of Palestine. Those people are the forerunnrs of the modern Mizrahi Jews who are y chromosome haplogroup J for the most part. This same heritage is found among the Ashkenazi Jews. Their y chromosome is sometimes European but autosomal studies indicate that their heritage stems from the Near East.
So discovering that the ancient Jewish people of Palestine were haplogroup J is just as important as finding out that the area of the northern ten tribes contains no haplogroup R. This in order to counteract all the past conspiracy theories.
Scout
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