It's raining here today in Southern California, and I think some of it is the spittle flying from the Great Bwana Bob as he melts down over yesterday's article about the so-called lineage of Armstrongism ordinations.
Apparenlty, when God was forming the foundations of the world and in the process of creating the greatest Church of God leader to ever arise in the Church of God movement, one of those soon-to-be rebellious angels must have interrupted God when He was getting to the part about the sacred ordination of the Great Bwana Bob. God missed the ordination part completely. Due to this oversight, this led the Worldwide Church of God, the Global Church of God, and the Living Church of God all REFUSEING to ordain him. He never even broke the glass ceiling and made it as a deacon! Oh, the humanity!
He pops a major cork over Craig White and Lee Walker's research. These two men are not as intelligent nor filled with the true Holy Spirit that was supposedly sent after the true ordination of the Great Bwana Bob, the end-time exorcist, and greatest COG leader in human history. Shame on Craig and Lee! How could you?
Well, it should be pointed out that Lee Walker’s anti-succession conclusions are opinions, NOT historical facts.
Silly Craig and Lee! What you have to say means nothing when the One True Church leader and the most intelligent man alive today is superior to you. No one is more intelligent than he is, and since he is God's most highly favored end-time prophet, his word is the FINAL word!
The historical reality is that the true Church of God does have laying on of hands apostolic succession. The laying on of hands is part of how God transfers the Holy Spirit into the newly baptized (Acts 8:17; 19:5-6). And without the Spirit of Christ, one is not a Christian (Romans 8:9).
That said, let me state that I even shared an apostolic succession list with the Waldensian church in Rome which ran from the apostles through the year 1525.
Now, did Andrew Dugger, Jr and CO Dodd, Dr. Herman Hoeh, various ones in LCG, and me Dr. Bob Thiel, ever make any mistakes in their understanding of specifics related to succession?
Yes.
But that does not mean that the succession idea was wrong.
As far as Craig White and Lee Walker go, they are entitled to their opinions that they could not demonstrate laying on of hands succession to North America. After looking at information, some of which that I doubt they saw, I have a different view.
Everything, and I mean everything that Bwana Bob Thiel says regarding theology is an opinion. His opinion. It's his own particular interpretation and cannot stand up to rigorous theological debate.
Like most of his debates, he goes on to have another whine-fest about how the Global Church of God and Living Church of God refused to heed his commands.
Working to correct errors in church history was something I began to work on when I was with the Living Church of God (which promised to correct numerous historical errors it admitted it taught, yet that it later failed to do so) and then later in the Continuing Church of God.
While the late Dr. Herman Hoeh (of the old Radio, then Worldwide, Church of God) was prone to correct errors in his historical understandings, and there was a willingness to do so by the late John Ogwyn when I spoke with him, sadly many others have not been as willing.
The Great Bwana has been trying for YEARS to get various COG/Sabbatarian groups to listen to him and change their teachings. All have refused him. And, I mean ALL!
For what it’s worth, off and on for years I have looked into the historical period of the 1600s to 1800s. In doing so, I have spoken to and/or emailed leaders in many groups, including various CG7s (I even met with CG7-Denver’s Robert Coulter and still speak to him on the telephone from time to time) and xWCG related ones. One of which still sends out A.N. Dugger’s book. Also, I have had several contacts, including verbal, with leaders of groups claiming to have come from the Waldensians.
That being said, because of limited available records, it is not likely that anyone in this age will be able to put together a perfect history of the true Church.
But to suggest that there is no reason to accept that there was laying on of hands succession from the Old World to the New World is not so.
That said, we are still working on details related to this period to improve our understanding, but some of what is in this post should show all, that will look, that we have not held onto certain misunderstandings that some had.
The true Church of God is the Christian church. Despite some errors in historical understandings, the basic view that the true Church of God has existed since Acts 2 is correct, as well as consistent with Jesus’ words in Matthew 16:18.
He has a long list of things that he posts from one of his books, trying to prove he is right, but he can't. More importantly, he continues to gloss over his own ordination at the hands of his African leaders since no American Church of God group would ordain him.
15 comments:
The last one in line will always have the most difficult time in proving that the chain had not been broken anywhere leading up to him. Still, Bob is a unique case in many ways. Has anyone seen anything that would indicate the presence of the Holy Spirit in his COGwriting or his ministry? That question may provide a better set of discernment tools to assist us in evaluating him. It has been a number of years that he's occupied space and time here. What does everybody think? Have we seen anything that would change our opinions of Bob?
Bobby is a liar and a cheat. He tries to build himself up in arrogance even placing himself above Jesus. Watch his sermons (or copies of Herbies sermons). Thiel stutters and stammers whenever he has to mention Jesus then needing a big sip of something to calm his nerves.
Nice of him to confirm my definition of “Armstrongism.” That said…
1. The closest thing to a substantive “opinion” so offered in my article is the jurisprudential conclusion. None of it depends on my own suspicions or personal guesswork. (If someone doesn’t like my characterizations of certain things, so be it.)
2. Who ordained Herbert Armstrong? Until someone in can conclusively answer that question, the confirmed succession going back stops at 1931. (And then we will have to track back from there.)
.. and he's bawling again.
You totally messed up his rubber bouncing mantle fantasy there.
Apostolic succession, such as what the Armstrong movement proclaim, is simply a poor effort to seek legitimacy in the eyes of their few remaining followers. It is a very small audience now.The linkage doesn’t exist. And there are many who claim apostolic succession out in the Christian world. As is the folly of church eras which Armstrongites happily hold too. There is now readily available plenty of solid sound scholarship out there that chews apart many of their beloved doctrines like the above and their relished British Israelism. This ‘work’ will soon disappear held up simply by mortal men who desire a following for themselves. All is vanity, and we of all creatures on this earth are the most vain.
I should add the obvious: The very fact that he is having to continue research to definitively show the alleged succession demonstrates the accuracy of the jurisprudential conclusion: There being no conclusive, verified succession laid out, the Armstrongist ministry is at this point in time to be considered set aside in ministerial power and function per the Ezra 2/Nehemiah 7 precedent. It’s not a matter of whether the succession in actual fact exists. It’s a matter of whether it can be shown, verified, and proven. And by his own account, it has not been.
I'm sorry. As a writer, I'm just trying to conceptualize this particular chapter in the new book of Acts which all the COGlodytes are so eagerly anticipating. It's difficult to see to write through the tears that extreme laughter have brought to my eyes. The narrative starts with Rod Meredith chomping at the bit after having watched other members of the WCG ministry initiating their splinter groups as the Tkach corrections are instituted. Rod is distraught as he must await the resolution of the Leona McNair libel suit. At last, the court has ruled in favor of Ms. McNair, and the new WCG picks up the tab. Once that monkey is no longer on his back, Rod raises up the Global Church of God. The board of directors of the new church wants to ensure that nothing like the farces of the past befalls the new church, and attempts to impose rules upon him. In short order, David Pack pulls away his very own splinter group, calls it the Restored Church of God, and Rod expresses his displeasure with Global's form of church government and raises up his own splinter group, calling it the Living Church of God.
The road is still rocky, however, and he loses some of the long term ministers and allies, who leave LCG and start their own splinters. A man who is a lay member and reliable donor initiates a website extolling the virtues of the LCG, insisting that it alone is the correct, or chosen church among all the other splinters. This is a marked departure from past COG policy, and would have been considered to be very presumptuous and even verboten while the founder of Armstrongism was alive, but Rod needs the man's money if not his brain, so looks the other way. But, alas, the man wants more. He wants a seat at the table, and he wants his perspectives written into official church policy. He waits somewhat impatiently for an opportunity, any opportunity, and then while being annointed for a cold and bout of fatigue, the annointing minister prays that the man be given a double portion of the Holy Spirit. This sets off an extreme fantasy that he has been ordained as a prophet, which causes friction, culminating in the man leaving the group which he had spent years informing the readers of his website was the one of a kind, special chosen group. The elusive quest for something in the way of an official ordination nags him for several years, but his patience is eventually rewarded as the man is finally ordained by someone whom his closest advisers later informed him was a witch doctor! So much for the chain!
12:37:57 You nailed it!
Does the witch doctor's ordination and alleged succession also extend to his animated Cartoon Bob character as well?
Richard
The Black Plague was also passed on by laying on by a succession of hands, sneezes and coughs.
Surveyor, that is extremely subjective in evaluating a minister. Armstrong himself is a perfect example. Some people see him as a powerful leader. I see him as something that if I use the correct term probably would lead to this post not being approved.
Even if a given minister is indisputably “bad,” in Armstrongism you still have to obey him. He can still break up your marriage, destroy your business, and inspect your medicine cabinet — all the while commanding you to mow his lawn every week. They may not do that stuff as much anymore, but few of them (at least in the post-‘86 splits) will deny they believe they have that power. He does not cease to be a minister or prove himself not to be a minister simply because he’s a… I will let you fill in the blank.
Now, if you are speaking without regard to Armstrongism, then maybe you have a point. But the religion in sight here does not give a member that prerogative. Thus, only by rejecting the succession claim can your standard of evaluation be meaningful.
From the post: “The historical reality is that the true Church of God does have laying on of hands apostolic succession”
I have not investigated the Doctrine of Apostolic Succession much but I do have a couple of observations from the sidelines. One must consider the point of view that the NT authors held on a matter like this that stretches off into the future. The brothers back then largely believed that Jesus was going to return quickly. Like in a few years. They did not have a long-term view. They did not see the church needing an operating infrastructure two thousand years in the future. So, whatever the language of the NT, it does not anticipate the need to formulate policies for the long run. If they had done so, one might anticipate a kind of “chain of custody” that would be attached to Apostolic authority like a credential of some sort. Like the town marshal wearing a badge that had been passed down over generations or the conch shell in the “Lord of the Flies.” But this is not the case. All we have is the mere supposition that the successional laying on of hands happened though it is unrecorded, apparently. Nobody can produce an incontrovertible chain of custody. This lack of process alone says a lot about the validity of this view.
So, two observations make me skeptical about the validity of Apostolic Succession. First, the early church did not think in that way. They thought time was short. Second, there is no unchallengeable church heritage of a durational process for supporting this feature across the millennia. Even when Paul wrote about the various offices in the church, he did not mention successional laying on of hands (Ephesians 4:11).
I have one more general observation that pertains to Armstrongism. For a church that highly prizes Hierarchy and sees all relational connections between members as defined by Hierarchy, it is easy to understand that Apostolic Succession would be a really big deal. It has a nice Hierarchical fit. And Apostolic Succession could be regarded as a unifying institution in the church if the empirical support were without doubt. But as it is, it is simply a point of division. Claims counterposed against claims. Does this seem like something that benefits the invisible Body of Christ? It seems more like a denominational banner carried in a parade.
Scout
LOFCOG asked:
Does the witch doctor's ordination and alleged succession also extend to his animated Cartoon Bob character as well?
I'm convinced that it was Evans' idea, not Bob's, to have Evans lay hands on Bob. When you lay hands on someone, you are showing yourself to be their superior. Evans needed to lay hands on Bob to show his African flock that Bob was subordinate to him. But doing this screwed up Bob's claim to legitimacy. Deep down, despite all his mincing and flailing about it, Bob didn't trust his accidental "ordination" from Gaylon Bonjour, so he was willing to accept a real and intentional one from Evans. But you can't ordain someone to an office higher than you hold, unless it's some special one-off miracle like Bob used to say happened when Gaylon laid hands on him. Once Bob decided to supplement Gaylon's ordination with Evans', he lost all claim of being anything more than another evangelist. He can't be a prophet anymore.
For COG Succession read :Against the Gates of Hell By Don Eposito
AnonymousSaturday, May 10, 2025 at 6:45:00 PM PDT
Unless you can tell me who ordained Herbert Armstrong, and can track that back to the original parcels, I really don’t care about it. The book doesn’t seem to have that information.
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