Ezekiel 1:15-21
15 As I looked at the living creatures, I saw a wheel on the ground beside each creature with its four faces. 16 This was the appearance and structure of the wheels: They sparkled like topaz, and all four looked alike. Each appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel. 17 As they moved, they would go in any one of the four directions the creatures faced; the wheels did not change direction as the creatures went. 18 Their rims were high and awesome, and all four rims were full of eyes all around.
19 When the living creatures moved, the wheels beside them moved; and when the living creatures rose from the ground, the wheels also rose. 20 Wherever the spirit would go, they would go, and the wheels would rise along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels. 21 When the creatures moved, they also moved; when the creatures stood still, they also stood still; and when the creatures rose from the ground, the wheels rose along with them, because the spirit of the living creatures was in the wheels.
Herbert Armstrong's Fanciful History of the Angelic Realm
Herbert Armstrong, founder of the now-defunct Worldwide Church of God and Plain Truth magazine, wrote about the angelic realm:
Mystery of the Ages: The Perfect Creation
In Job 38:4, 7, God is speaking specifically of the creation of this earth. He said all the angels (created “sons of God”) shouted for joy at the creation of the earth. This reveals that angels were created before the creation of the earth, and probably before the material universe. The suns, planets, and astral bodies are material substances. Angels are individually created spirit beings, composed solely of spirit. It will come as a surprise to many to learn that angels inhabited this earth BEFORE the creation of man. This passage from Job implies it.
Mystery of the Ages: Angels on Earth Sinned
It is revealed in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28, that God placed the archangel Lucifer, a cherub, on a throne on the earth. He was placed there as a ruler over the entire earth. God intended him to rule the earth by administering the government of God over the earth. And the government of God was administered on earth until the rebellion of the sinning angels.
How long these angels inhabited the earth before the creation of man is not revealed. It might have been millions-or even billions-of years. More on that later. But these angels sinned. Sin is the transgression of God’s law (I John 3:4). And God’s law is the basis of God’s government. So we know these angels, apparently a third of all the angels (Rev. 12:4), sinned-rebelled against the government of God. And sin carries penalties. The penalty for the sin of the angels is not death, as it is for man. Angels are immortal spirit beings and cannot die. These spirit beings had been given dominion over the PHYSICAL EARTH as a possession and an abode.
The universal, worldwide sin of the angels resulted in the physical destruction of the face of the earth.
Mystery of the Ages: A Surprising Truth
Now another surprise for most readers. Here is another bit of the missing dimension in knowledge, actually revealed in the Bible, but unrecognized by religion, by science and by higher education.
From verse 2 of Genesis 1 on, the remainder of this first chapter of the Bible is not describing the original creation of the earth. But it is describing a renewing of the face of the earth, after it had become waste and empty as a result of the sin of the angels.
What is described from verse 2 on, in the supposed creation chapter of the Bible, did occur, according to the Bible, approximately 6,000 years ago. But that could have been millions or trillions of years after the actual creation of the earth described in verse 1!
I will comment later on the length of time it might have taken before all earth’s angels turned to rebellion.
The earth had become waste and empty. God did not create it waste and empty, or in a state of decay. God is not the author of confusion (I Cor. 14:33). This same Hebrew word-tohu-meaning waste and empty, was inspired in Isaiah 4518, where it is translated “in vain.” Using the original Hebrew word, as originally inspired, it reads: “For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain [tohu], he formed it to be inhabited.”
Continue now with the remainder of verse 2 of Genesis 1 (the earth had become chaotic, waste and empty): “And darkness was upon the face of the deep [the ocean or fluid surface of the earth]. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness” (verses 2-4).
Satan is the author of darkness. The rebellion of the angels had caused the darkness. God is the author of light and truth. Light displays and enhances beauty, and also exposes evil. Darkness hides both.
The verses that follow in this first chapter of the Bible describe the renewing of the face of the earth, yielding beautiful lawns, trees, shrubs, flowers, vegetation-then the creation of fish and fowl, animal life, and finally man.
Mystery of the Ages: God's Purpose for Angels
So the angel potential was to take over the entire universe-to improve and finish the billions of physical planets surrounding the uncountable stars, many of which are SUNS. The sun in our solar system is merely an average-size sun. Some that we see as stars are actually many, many times larger than our sun. Our solar system, vast beyond the imagination of most minds, is only a part of our galaxy, and there are many galaxies! In other words, the physical UNIVERSE that the mighty God created is vast beyond imagination! How GREAT is the GREAT GOD!
He intended angels to have a vital part in the final creation of the endless universe!
(But God may not have then fully revealed this awesome potential to the angels, for one third of them set out to take it from him by force, without first qualifying.)
For this far-reaching purpose, God established his GOVERNMENT on earth over them. The administration of the GOVERNMENT OF GOD over this globe was delegated to the super archangel-the great cherub Lucifer.
Bear in mind that even the holy angels and archangels-including this super cherub Lucifer-of necessity were endowed with ability to think, to reason, to form attitudes, and to make choices and decisions.
The Incredible Human Potential: What Caused the Angels' Sin?
He had created a beautiful, perfect creation in the earth. He populated it with holy angels - probably millions of them. He put over them, as king, on an earthly throne, the archangel - the cherub Lucifer. Lucifer was the supreme masterpiece of God's creative power as a single separately created Spirit being. He was the most perfect in beauty, power, mind, knowledge, intellect, wisdom, within the almighty power of God to create. God can create nothing higher or more perfect, by instantaneous fiat.
Yet this great being, knowledgeable, trained and experienced at God's own throne in heaven over the universe and the administration of the government of God, had rejected that government, corrupted his way, rebelled against administering or even obeying it. He had led all his angels astray and into the sin of rebellion and disloyalty.
Now consider further. Apparently, the entire universe had been created also at the time of the earth's creation. There is no evidence either in God's revealed Word, nor in science, that any of the planets in endless outer space had been inhabited with any form of life. But God does nothing in vain. He always has a purpose.
Apparently, all such planets in the entire universe NOW are waste and empty - decayed (tohu and bohu) - Like the earth was, as described in Genesis I :2. But God did not create them in such conditions of decay - like our moon. Decay is not an original created condition - it is a condition resulting from a process of deterioration. Evidently if the now fallen angels had maintained the earth in its original beautiful condition, improved it, carried out God's instructions, and obeyed His government, they would have been offered the awesome potential of populating and carrying out a tremendous creative program throughout the entire universe. When they turned traitor on earth, their sin must have also brought simultaneously physical destruction to the other planets throughout the universe, which were potentially and conditionally put in subjection to them.
As God surveyed this cataclysmic tragedy, He must have realized that since the highest, most perfect being within His almighty power to create, had turned to rebellion, it left God Himself as the only being who would not and cannot sin...
God saw that no being less than God, in the God Family, could be certainly relied on never to sin - to be like God - who cannot sin. To fulfill His purpose for the entire vast universe, God saw that nothing less than Himself (as the God Family) could be absolutely relied upon to carry out that supreme purpose in the entire universe.
God then purposed to reproduce Himself, through humans, made in His image and likeness, but made first from material flesh and blood, subject to death if there is sin unrepented of - yet with the possibility of being born into the Divine Family begotten by God the Father.
Unfortunately, Mr. Armstrong's logic and writing style were so flawed that it makes it more difficult to get a handle on precisely what he was teaching. As a consequence, I will follow the order of his presentation of this material and summarize the major points he made in this regard (hopefully, making it easier for the reader to follow along and make sure that I have accurately characterized his teachings.
1. Mr. Armstrong taught that the book of Job suggested that angels were created prior to the physical universe, and that they inhabited the earth before humankind was created.
2. He also taught that passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel reveal that Lucifer was placed on the throne of earth over the angelic host. Armstrong went on to teach that these angels sinned, and that the penalty for their sins was not death (because they were immortal beings).
3. Instead, according to Mr. Armstrong, the angels' sin caused the destruction of the earth's surface - forcing God to recreate/renew the face of the earth. He then concluded that God had intended for the angels "to improve and finish" the other solar systems of the universe!
4. Mr. Armstrong taught that Lucifer represented the pinnacle of God's creative power, and that he had been trained at God's throne in heaven. Moreover, Armstrong taught that Lucifer had rejected God's governance and had led a great angelic rebellion against Him!
5. As a consequence of Lucifer's failure, Mr. Armstrong taught that God had decided that only a God-being could be relied upon. Hence, according to Herbert, God then decided to reproduce Himself, and that he would accomplish that through the creation of humankind. In other words, humankind represented PLAN B!
Now that we have summarized Armstrong's teachings about the history of the angelic host, we can begin to take a look at his scriptural prooftexts and critically dissect the flawed reasoning that led to his erroneous conclusions and teachings.
First, this is the actual text from the passage in Job which Mr. Armstrong referenced in his book:
Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said: 'Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Dress for action like a man; I will question you, and you make it known to me. Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (Job 38:1-7, ESV)
So, we see that the actual context of this passage was God's confrontation of Job's self-righteousness. He was telling Job to put on his big boy pants and answer His questions. "Where were you when I created the earth?" He demanded. In the course of this conversation, we can clearly see that God used flowery and symbolic prose to describe His creation of the earth. As part of this discourse, God revealed to Job that the "morning stars" (angels) sang together, and "all the sons of God" (spirit beings/angels) "shouted for joy."
Now, while it is reasonable to deduce from this passage that angels and spirit beings were created prior to the physical earth and were witnesses to its actual creation, there is NO explicit or implied statement that it was created for them! It is very clearly a stretch to suggest otherwise! Moreover, I defy anyone to point to any place in this passage where it is even remotely suggested that angels lived on this earth before humans! Anyone up for that challenge? If so, please respond in the comments section.
Moreover, before we leave the book of Job, we should note that this is the first mention in the Hebrew Bible of an entity known as "Satan." And, at the beginning of the book, it is made very clear that this Satan still had access to God's throne in heaven at the time that this story took place - ostensibly, many years after the appearance of humans on this planet! (See Job 1:6 and 2:1)
This is especially interesting in terms of this passage from the book of Revelation:
And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth. And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems. His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days. Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, 'Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death. Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!'" (Revelation 12:1-12, ESV)
In this passage from the New Testament, it is clearly suggested that this great angelic war happened sometime after the appearance of the Messiah and the institution of his Church, and that this event finally resulted in the Dragon/Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven and losing their right of access to that place! Moreover, this passage clearly suggests that prior to this event that they had a place in heaven!
This, of course, is more consistent with a host of other scriptural passages than Armstrong's teachings on the subject. In the Gospels, angels are always associated with heaven (Matthew 18:10, 22:30, 24:31, 36, Mark 12:25, 13:32, Luke 2:15, John 1:51). Likewise, in the book of Jude, we read about: "the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling..." (Jude 6) And, finally, there is Christ's own statement that he saw Satan "fall like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18). We should also note that all of these passages suggest that the angelic host also had/have access to the earth, acting in their capacity as God's servants/messengers!
For instance, we find the Serpent present in the Garden of Eden! Moreover, when we read through the narrative in the second and third chapters of the book of Genesis, it appears that the Serpent did not have any negative connotation associated with him prior to the events with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. After all, God didn't curse him until after he had deceived Eve and caused her to disobey God! It was only then that God declared: "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." (Genesis 3:14-15, ESV) Wait a minute! Did that passage suggest that the days of Satan's life were limited?
Let's take a look at those passages from Isaiah and Ezekiel that Mr. Armstrong referenced in his remarks above. In the fourteenth chapter of the book of Isaiah, we read this passage about the "King of Babylon:"
How the oppressor has ceased, the insolent fury ceased! The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked, the scepter of rulers, that struck the peoples in wrath with unceasing blows, that ruled the nations in anger with unrelenting persecution. The whole earth is at rest and quiet; they break forth into singing. The cypresses rejoice at you, the cedars of Lebanon, saying, ‘Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us. Sheol beneath is stirred up to meet you when you come; it rouses the shades to greet you, all who were leaders of the earth; it raises from their thrones all who were kings of the nations. All of them will answer and say to you: ‘You too have become as weak as we! You have become like us!’ Your pomp is brought down to Sheol, the sound of your harps; maggots are laid as a bed beneath you, and worms are your covers. 'How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low! You said in your heart, ‘I will ascend to heaven; above the stars of God I will set my throne on high; I will sit on the mount of assembly in the far reaches of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.’ But you are brought down to Sheol, to the far reaches of the pit. Those who see you will stare at you and ponder over you: ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?' All the kings of the nations lie in glory, each in his own tomb; but you are cast out, away from your grave, like a loathed branch, clothed with the slain, those pierced by the sword, who go down to the stones of the pit, like a dead body trampled underfoot. You will not be joined with them in burial, because you have destroyed your land, you have slain your people. May the offspring of evildoers nevermore be named! (Isaiah 14:4-20, ESV)
Now, to be clear, there are those who see this passage as comparing the actual human king of Babylon to Lucifer/Satan, and there are those who see this passage as comparing Lucifer/Satan to the human king. Although an important distinction, for our purposes, I believe this argument is academic. However, one chooses to interpret this passage, the termination of the subject's life and power is delineated in the starkest terms imaginable. In other words, there isn't any possible interpretation which ends in the immortality of the individual in question!
Likewise, when we take a closer look at the twenty-eighth chapter of the book of Ezekiel, we are forced to reach a similar conclusion about the subject of the text. The chapter begins with a passage reprimanding the prince of Tyre, which clearly pointed to the human ruler of the city. This is followed by a passage addressed to the king of Tyre - a personage who is clearly extraordinary (not human). We read there:
You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, sardius, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, emerald, and carbuncle; and crafted in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub. I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and I destroyed you, O guardian cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought fire out from your midst; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more forever. (Ezekiel 28:12-19, ESV)
Are these passages suggesting that Satan and his angels are NOT immortal? Yes, that's exactly what they are saying! Apparently, taking into account the totality of Scripture, angels have the ability to exist indefinitely. They are, however, still CREATED beings! As such, they continue to exist at the pleasure of Almighty God! Notice that, in his first letter to Timothy, Paul wrote that Jesus is "King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion." (I Timothy 6:16, ESV) Apparently, immortality is a God quality/characteristic!
In this connection, we should look again at the book of Revelation and see what John had to say about the ultimate fate of Satan. In the twentieth chapter of that book, we read: "an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while." (Verses 1-3, ESV)
First, notice that this passage is referencing a TEMPORARY imprisonment of Satan - it says absolutely NOTHING about his ultimate fate! Indeed, we find the subject of his ultimate fate addressed later on in the same chapter - after the millennial reign of Christ and his saints. In verse ten, we read that Satan will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, where the Beast and the False Prophet had already been tossed. After this we read of the "Great White Throne Judgment," and that, finally, "Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14, ESV) In other words, this means permanent/eternal death! There is no resurrection from this one! Everyone thrown into this "fire" ceases to exist forever! This is consistent with Paul's statement to the Romans that the "wages of sin is DEATH," and that eternal life is God's GIFT! Moreover, it is also consistent with John's statement that there wouldn't be any more sorrow, tears, or pain in the New Heavens and the New Earth (Revelation 21:1-4). In other words, the continued existence of ANYONE (including Satan) in a state of torment would contradict this statement!
One more thing before we finish. What was God's purpose for the angels? In the book of Hebrews, we read:
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say, 'You are my Son, today I have begotten you?' Or again, 'I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son?' And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, 'Let all God's angels worship him.' Of the angels he says, 'He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.' (Hebrews 1:1-7, ESV)
Clearly, Christ is/was superior to angels, and they NEVER had the potential to become Sons of God!
Likewise, a little later in the same chapter, we read:
And to which of the angels has he ever said, 'Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet?' Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation? (Hebrews 1:13-14, ESV)
Once again, this passage makes very clear that angels NEVER had any part in humankind's potential or purpose! Moreover, in the very next chapter, we read:
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore, he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. (Hebrews 2:14-16, ESV)
In other words, in the words of one of my past posts, God is NOT working on "Plan B!"
Hence, we can see that Herbert Armstrong's cherry-picking of Scripture and faulty reasoning led him to construct a fanciful history of the angelic realm - one that is certainly NOT rooted in Scripture! The Plain Truth is that angels were created to serve God and humankind, and that those of their number who rebelled against this purpose (including Satan) will eventually face complete annihilation!
Posted by Miller Jones/Lonnie C Hendrix
32 comments:
Thank you Millar/Lonnie for this piece.
I doubt it will ever feature in any Armstrongite ‘literature’.
It would be interesting to get a response to this, indeed to any post on here, that is detailed, precise, to the point, a counter argument from them. Are you reading this Bob Thiel?
Again I doubt it. It’s a movement build on sand. And would sew doubts among the tithe payers and endanger their revenue flow. Besides blowing a hole in their theology. Thank you for your work.
God would have known the possibility of some angels questioning whether it was God himself who created the universe, so he would have made it after the creation of angels. It's common sense. And it can't be that Lucifer and his followers turned to sin after perhaps billions of years. Whether born or created, beings made in God's image are forced to start making decisions, which either builds or destroys character: Proverbs 20:11 "Even a child is known by his deeds."
Satan went off on a moral tangent within a few years. This phenomena is even observable when members get baptized.
Herbert Armstrong would agree with your stance that Worldwide and Plain Truth are now defunct as he wholeheartedly believed his commission and work from God would finish when he died.
I recall hearing sermons that HWA would still be alive when the tribulation arrives. I think HWA would agree that a phase of the work ceased when he died. That God would stop warning the world of a coming WW 3 in which billions will die is inconceivable.
Lonnie has given us an enormous amount of content here, covering a diverse number of topics (creation, age of the earth, origins of angels, man, and sin, Satan's fate, etc.). In the Christian world of 41,000 denominations, there is a multiplicity of opinion on all these concepts, many of which are pure conjecture because information is limited. In that sense, Armstrong's theories are as good as any. Some I accept, others I reject.
I agree with him on the Gap theory (which he did NOT originate), but disagree with him on Satan's fate (yes, only God has immortality). In this vein, the annihilation of the wicked is upheld, the traditional idea of "hell" is discarded, and there is no rhyme or reason for an intermediate state. In other words, "traditional" Christian beliefs on many topics are not exact science!
Miller Jones,
This is a very thought-provoking article. And it deals with origins which I find to be a fascinating topic always. Back some time ago, a commenter on this blog conjectured that you and I are the same person. While we agree extensively on the Gospel, at the nuance level there are some differences. Here is one. I am not an annihilationist and would have interpreted some of the scriptures in your exegesis differently. Infernalism, annihilationism and universalism are common points of disagreement in the Christian House, but I do not believe the controversy separates brothers. But the principal thesis of this article is not about that. It is about whether HWA understood the role of the angels from the Creation and forward.
On this I align with you. I think the HWA was mistaken. Though at this time this is just an assumption on my part, I believe that he first developed the God-as-God-is-God destiny for humans and then backed into an origin story that supported it. This teleology can be mistaken for a tightly logical argument by the inobservant reader. Humans will never be God-as-God-is-God and HWA’s argument that only Gods, just like God himself, could be trusted with the refurbishing of the Cosmos collapses. (I think the jury is out on whether nor not we will be refurbishing the Cosmos at all.) Saved humanity will be participants in the divine nature but we will not be God-as-God-is-God. God is, after all, absolute and uncreated. We are relative and created.
Sovereign God does not experience what we call “surprise.” This is a human-level experience. He has no need for recourse to Plan B. To assert that he had to fall back and regroup is to reduce him to being like a human, a Millerite tendency. Instead, God sovereignly generates reality. Acts 15:18 states, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world (Greek, “aion.” Means age).” This duration subsumes all we know of the Creation.
Interesting topic well-presented. I will be thinking about it for a while.
Scout
My thanks to everyone who was brave enough to tackle this post. It is long, but as BP8 suggested - this is a multi-faceted topic.
Scout, Monday, September 29, 2025 at 7:29:44 AM PDT, concluded his thoughts with stating:
"...Sovereign God does not experience what we call “surprise.” This is a human-level experience. He has no need for recourse to Plan B. To assert that he had to fall back and regroup is to reduce him to being like a human, a Millerite tendency. Instead, God sovereignly generates reality. Acts 15:18 states, “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world (Greek, “aion.” Means age).” This duration subsumes all we know of the Creation.
Interesting topic well-presented. I will be thinking about it for a while..."
******
That is correct: there is no need for any plan B. Some used to teach, and Frank Nelte may still preach plans A, B, and C; however, there has always been only one plan. God does not lie, and He is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.
Yes, God knows all of His works. Another complimentary verse to Acts 15:18 is the following:
"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Hebrews 4:3
Were the works finished from the foundation of the world?
Time will tell...
John
HWA and the others who were supposedly gifted with the ability to understand prophecy because they kept the sabbath certainly never told us about Civil War II!
That was me at 7:54 - Didn't catch not being signed in when I posted the comment.
Thanks to Scout and John! The comments about no plan B, C, etc. hit the nail squarely on the head. Consider also:
Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.'" - Matthew 25:34, ESV
"knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you." - I Peter 1:18-20, ESV
"And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words...and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain." - Revelation 13:8, ESV
And more to think about..........
Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Heb 13:2 ESV
Time will indeed tell.......
Was creation week in Genesis 1 by a fixed calendar Tishri 16-22 in 3976 BC and 6000 years will end at the going out of the year at the FOI - Ex 23:16/Strong's 3318.....in 2025 AD?
You may laugh, but notice I'm not predicting anything but just asking the question, after noting.......
1656 + 426 (interpret Gen 11:10 "1 yr"; no Hebrew for "two") + 400 + 480 + 429 years to 585 BC, about the end of Zedekiah's reign - Gen 5,11,15:13 (Abraham had seed before children!), 1Kings 6:1, reigns of Judah's kings in 2Chr + 2609 years from 585 BC to 2025 AD = 6000 years
Too long. More heresy from corrupt LCG ministers who run this blog.
Am I the only sane person here? Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." This was a surprise on God's part and the reason for plan B with the humans. Plan B is systematically smashing every false god/alternative to God's way. God destroying all the false gods of Egypt before Israel's departure is an example of this. Which is why God has given communism its hour in the sun, as well as North Korea for those who believe that extreme tyranny will create a heaven on earth. Modern day democracy being another example (refer to the book: "Democracy: The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe).
Today we are very much into plan C.
Hit and run! What makes it heretical? Because it contradicts Herbert Armstrong? And, for the record, I do not run this blog (I'm a guest here), and I've NEVER been affiliated with the Living Church of God! If you don't have anything of substance to offer, you might consider a more productive use of your time.
Anonymous Monday, September 29, 2025 at 4:19:05 PM PDT,
It sounds to me like you totally missed the point of the story of Noah's Ark. Laying aside the debate over whether the story was historical or rhetorical, I believe that the story demonstrated that God's sorrow over mankind's creation was short-lived - that one righteous person convinced Him that humanity was worth saving. Moreover, the story ends with God's promise to never again allow such a calamity to envelope the human race.
Hence, I'm wondering: what evidence do you have that this event in anyway changed God's plan to save humanity through Jesus Christ? If the plan was formulated at the foundation of the earth, how could ANY subsequent event change it? Wouldn't any modifications to the plan make it a new and different plan? How did the flood change the Eden prophecy that Satan would strike at Christ's heal, or that Christ would crush his head? How did the flood negate or modify God's plan to bring about our reconciliation to Himself? Where is the evidence that it even changed his timeline?
Now, I do agree with you that God intended for us to learn the lesson that only his way can produce the health, happiness, and security which we all crave. The story of Eden, Babel, Abraham, Israel, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, and Rome were ALL an integral part of us learning this fundamental lesson. Christ taught a new kind of human interaction and authority - one based on love and service. From my perspective, it's all part of the plan.
I quite agree with you anon 3:37:32 PM PDT.
Those who run this blog all belong to a shady Marist Leninist group based in the Democratic Republic of the Congo in Kinshasa. They are called S.M.A.L.L.or Small Men Always Losing Legitimacy. Which perfectly sums up LCG ministry. Controlled by Elon Monk and Elvis (who has come out of hiding) they control Armstrongism, 60% of the global oil revenues, put man on the moon and discovered the planet Pluto. Dangerous people. I have no doubt they will publish an updated version of MOTA within the next year. You heard it here first. And no I am not Bob Thiel.
heel, nothing to do with the physical healing arts
And the Plan may be after millennia the ark will be found, verifying the Genesis account. Google AI says the ark has not been found and may be unlikely due to its wood composition which deteriorates. But...the wood was pitched in and out with pitch which may have preserved the "gopher wood".
The "hit and run" Armstrongites underscore the absurdity of their own claim that they obey God's Law! Try this one on for size: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!
Let us not forget a previous Banned posting, Ron Weinland and his "The Rest of . . .Mystery of the Ages", 09/15/2025, where the current Apostle corrects HWA on certain flaws concerning the Angelic and Spirit realm. The question is, was this new truth revealed to him by the Holy Spirit, or was it a mixture of Bill Dakenbring and the old " One God" seminars?
We know what Ron would say! lol
6.26 PM, The parents of John the Baptist, Zechariah and Elizabeth, were"blameless" and righteous before God, but not sinless. So a Savior was required even if humanity had not chosen the pre flood moral route. God is a good God and would not chosen the present "learn the hard way" five thousand year horror show unless it was forced on him.
Miller wrote, “If the plan was formulated at the foundation of the earth, how could ANY subsequent event change it?”
This is an important and oft neglected insight. God is both sovereign and engaged as I would term it. He is sovereign because he is absolute. He generates reality. He is engaged because he grants some free will to those sentient beings he has created. If there is only sovereignty and no engagement, you have Calvinism. Everything is pre-determined. We are just puppets and our lives are scripted. If there is only engagement and no sovereignty, then the engagement is futile and God cannot function as El Shaddai.
I have railed against anthropomorphism in the past because it features prominently and erroneously in the Armstrongist Doctrine of God. But anthropomorphism has value. It is not a blight on the word of God. It is a literary device that speaks to all people no matter what their level of philosophical understanding might be. It spoke to an ancient farmer living in Israel 3,000 years ago and it speaks now to a professor of theology at Princeton University.
But God’s engagement should not be set in opposition to his sovereignty. There is no Plan B in the divine realm. God is not surprised at the turn of events like a human. God does not fail. God knew there would be a Flood and that he would save only eight people among the descendants of a man called Adam. The literary drama surrounding this event in the Old Testament text is poetry that delivers to us the impact of this event in a way that dry, technical prose cannot. But because God speaks to us where we are does not mean that he is limited like us.
But is God lying when he speaks to us in human vernacular? I asked Google AI about this and here is what it reported:
” When the Bible describes God as angry despite divine impassibility, it uses anthropomorphic language, or human terms, to communicate that God is opposed to sin and acts against it in a manner consistent with an angry person. God does not experience the shifting, passive emotions of humans, but rather maintains a fixed, unchanging character and responds to sin in ways that reveal his righteous opposition, which is often described as wrath or judgment.”
I find this fascinating. Google AI is probably as good a most Christian ministers in answering theological questions. I think probably its answers are a synthesis of what it finds on the web. It is just a way sophisticated report writer. I don’t know how it deals with diversity of viewpoint.
Scout
Anon, Monday, September 29, 2025 at 4:19:05 PM, wrote:
Am I the only sane person here? Genesis 6:6 "And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." This was a surprise on God's part and the reason for plan B with the humans. Plan B is systematically smashing every false god/alternative to God's way. God destroying all the false gods of Egypt before Israel's departure is an example of this. Which is why God has given communism its hour in the sun, as well as North Korea for those who believe that extreme tyranny will create a heaven on earth. Modern day democracy being another example (refer to the book: "Democracy: The God That Failed" by Hans-Hermann Hoppe).
Today we are very much into plan C.
******
Are you the only sane person here? Time will tell; however, your thoughts regarding Plans B, C....Z are just your, or somebody's, theory.
You may look up the word for "repented," for example via Strong's Concordance, and it appears about 100 times in the Bible. Repentance means change. Did God's mind change?
"For I [am] the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed." Malachi 3:6
"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8
For example: God knew (Acts 15:18; Heb 4:3) the done deal of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Would God repent of that? No, because it is part of a perfect Plan of salvation to save humanity and subsequently destroy Satan and his vile, evil, angels (Principalities of Phil 2:13; Exek 28:19, etc.). Why would God change?
God will not fail, and neither will His Son (Isaiah 42:4 "He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.")
Satan's governments (including demoncracy) will fail.
But, will those sons of Jacob live again?
Time will tell...
John
I knew that Bob Thiel wouldn't be able to resist this one. He wrote a post on his website: https://www.cogwriter.com/news/prophecy/satans-destiny-and-the-day-of-atonement/ which promotes Herbert Armstrong's view of the Day of Atonement. Like Herbie, Bob doesn't understand that the Aaron (the High Priest) represented Christ in the ceremony/ritual of Leviticus 16. Unlike the High Priest under the Old Covenant who entered the Tabernacle/Temple Holy of Holies once a year with the blood of animals, Jesus went into the real Holy of Holies one time with his own blood. As for the two goats, one provided the blood (the High Priest obviously wasn't going to provide it), and the other one symbolically carried the peoples' sins away from them and God's presence among them - removed them (as in the Goat of Removal). In other words, the goats fulfilled parts of the symbolism that the High Priest simply could not physically fulfill!
Now, Bob does admit that the ceremony does not depict the ultimate fate of Satan, but that is problematic for the Armstrongist view (that the sins of humankind are finally placed on the head of the one to whom they belong). Obviously, it does help the Armstrongist view in terms of explaining Satan's release from imprisonment after the Millenium and being tossed into the Lake of Fire. Nevertheless, if it is not final justice (as Herbie contended), who is responsible for all of the sins that happen during the Millenium, and then after Satan's release? How can Satan be made responsible for sins that happen during his imprisonment - when he won't be able to deceive and/or influence humans?
A little common sense is in order here. I wouldn't count on "the Devil made me do it" on Judgment Day. "But Satan is the father of lies and sins," my Armstrongist friends will protest. They forget this passage from the book of Ezekiel 18:1 18 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “What do you[a] mean by repeating this proverb concerning the land of Israel, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge’? 3 As I live, declares the Lord God, this proverb shall no more be used by you in Israel. 4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
5 “If a man is righteous and does what is just and right— 6 if he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman in her time of menstrual impurity, 7 does not oppress anyone, but restores to the debtor his pledge, commits no robbery, gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 8 does not lend at interest or take any profit,[b] withholds his hand from injustice, executes true justice between man and man, 9 walks in my statutes, and keeps my rules by acting faithfully—he is righteous; he shall surely live, declares the Lord God.
10 “If he fathers a son who is violent, a shedder of blood, who does any of these things 11 (though he himself did none of these things), who even eats upon the mountains, defiles his neighbor's wife, 12 oppresses the poor and needy, commits robbery, does not restore the pledge, lifts up his eyes to the idols, commits abomination, 13 lends at interest, and takes profit; shall he then live? He shall not live. He has done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon himself.
continued below
14 “Now suppose this man fathers a son who sees all the sins that his father has done; he sees, and does not do likewise: 15 he does not eat upon the mountains or lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, does not defile his neighbor's wife, 16 does not oppress anyone, exacts no pledge, commits no robbery, but gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with a garment, 17 withholds his hand from iniquity,[c] takes no interest or profit, obeys my rules, and walks in my statutes; he shall not die for his father's iniquity; he shall surely live. 18 As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother, and did what is not good among his people, behold, he shall die for his iniquity.
19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should not the son suffer for the iniquity of the father?’ When the son has done what is just and right, and has been careful to observe all my statutes, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself. (ESV)
I thought it was UCG ministurds running the blog. Now it is LCG?
https://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2025/09/the-atonement-being-made-at-one-with-god.html
Wow! I have no relevant comment but what a great read and I’m here for all of it!
BP8 the gap theory is a fraud as well. See https://youtu.be/kLu-ZzRn0T8 for example
Anon 639
I typed your YouTube code in and got the typical 404 not found. You seem to have all the answers, so why don't you just tell us what's wrong with the gap theory and why your theory is the correct view. I will be waiting.
BP8 maybe something wrong on your end. If I copy and paste the address it takes me to Ken Ham’s channel and his “This Video DESTROYS the Gap Theory.”
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