More words of wisdom from Samuel Kitchen:
Now the Lord God has done some rebuking towards the Devil, who is standing by to accuse falsely of Mr. Dean of “usurping power”. That’s the point of the UCG STRUCTURE. It was formed as a reaction to Aaron Dean holding faithful and true.
So look at Zechariah 3. Who removes the filthy clothing from Joshua? Those who are obedient to God, and doing the work of God. It is by us still holding fast as the Worldwide Church of God and keeping the Work of God ALIVE, the false works will flee with Satan the Devil.
As Satan said through Simon Peter, in Matthew 16. I have been told “IT IS NOT SO”, but the Lord does rebuke Satan the Devil.
And when the Devil flees, so do the filthy garments. What does that mean? It means the filthy garments that is dragging Aaron Dean into the Lake of Fire to burn up is going as well.
And when he resumes his proper work, inside the true Church of God, this Worldwide Church of God, then clothing of righteousness will adorn him, and he can properly fulfill his ministry in the Lord.
So what does the Tribulation do? It shuts down all these churches. It strips them of their PSUEDO POWER, which Satan allowed them to think they have.
And with nothing, perhaps they will look to God and repent.
Aaron Dean will stand up one day and give a faithful testimony.
But for the rest of us now, we need to be doing our part! We need to be ready! We need to obey God and BELIEVE GOD and the gospel delivered unto us through Herbert W Armstrong.
Since Trumpets, God is setting forth to restore the ministry to this Church. IT WILL BE DONE! And if we can be ready to support them as they are restored, then let us be ready as PILLARS OF THE TEMPLE!
45 comments:
Samuel, it will not be done. It’s sad but we’re all laughing at you.
Aaron ought to give serious consideration to filing a restraining order before the Kitchens spiral out of control.
What Samuel needs to do is buy a DeLorean car, together with a flux capacitor, accelerate to 88 miles per hour to generate the necessary 1.21 gigawatts of power to activate the flux capacitor, and travel back to the 1950s. There he can live in his fantasy alternate reality where Herb is The Man. He can live there forever by looping time.
There is a history throughout the Armstrong Church of God (sic) movement of little people from outside the power structure with bizarre ideas taking up a voice. They make a little noise, but never become predominant, or even really gain traction. This is because they don't realize that Herbert W. Armstrong, salesman extraordinaire, compiled his package, marketed it, and ruled over it all without any involvement by God whatsoever. He did it all on his own, using his own innate skills. He invoked God as an enforcement resource. The things which made people fear (and obey) pertained to prophecy. That was his boogie man, his hook. And he wielded it well!
When 1972-75 did not materialize, and HWA switched his ministry to one of international diplomacy, and later died with the most toys and won, astute members saw that as akin to the metaphoric unveiling of the Wizard of Oz, realized HWA had no power, and left. Die hards, imagining that God had been behind HWA's "work", have had the vanity to assume that God would give THEM the power of HWA, and the recognition, so that "the work" could be finished. They've had forty years (over two 19 year time cycles!) in which to do this. Many have claimed to be "the annointed one", but none have gained any traction. In so doing, their ridiculous charades and failures have done far more damage than just providing entertainment for those of us here. They have burned the entire perception of Armstrongism, the very brand as a whole, and have caused many watchers to have a diminished opinion of God Himself!
People from the larger ACOGs laugh along with us at the little guys, not realizing that they themselves are also part of the joke, only their part is just on a larger scale! The warnings and presence of these groups are largely invisible, and they have no better luck with HWA's "hook" (prophecy). They somehow never get the required combo or math right because there is none! Their efforts have included allegedly corrective splinterings, poaching, and attempts to rid themselves of problems through disfellowshipments. The bottom line is that the wisdom displayed by Gamaliel, is axiomatic, one of those eternal truths. Nothing is ever going to happen in or through the remnants of the Armstrong movement simply because it was man-made from the get-go. Its forebearers (the Adventist movement) had greater presence and success, as did the offshoot Jehovah's Witnesses. And, yet, their messages went nowhere, the prophecies unfulfilled. We former Armstrongites were simply a bizarre footnote to other groups whose more predominant ministries were based on endtimes prophecies! And failed.
BB
Do HWA acolytes capitalize words now and then to convince themselves? And Sam, the Aaronic priesthood is no more.
You know, I wonder if Sam Kitchen has actually asked Aaron Dean about all this and what he thinks? does he have Aaron Dean's go-ahead to raise him up like the way he wants? Also, how old is Aaron Dean now?
Sam, the glory days are over.
HWA is dead and buried.
The wwcog has collapsed and split into hundreds and hundreds of competing groups often at loggerheads, and hostile to each other, while all claiming to be the One True Church. HWA was not the Elijah to come, Jesus clearly told us all who it was, and it wasn’t Herbie. All the Armstrong groups are dying and dwindling in numbers, unknown, unheard off, and will soon disappear from sight. United we stand divided we fall, and so it is. There is no future for them, they are just another small footnote in ecclesiastical history.
Sam, the glory days are over.
HWA is dead and buried.
The wwcog has collapsed and split into hundreds and hundreds of competing groups often at loggerheads, and hostile to each other, while all claiming to be the One True Church. HWA was not the Elijah to come, Jesus clearly told us all who it was, and it wasn’t Herbie. All the Armstrong groups are dying and dwindling in numbers, unknown, unheard off, and will soon disappear from sight. United we stand divided we fall, and so it is. There is no future for them, they are just another small footnote in ecclesiastical history.
Yes, my sentiments exactly. This is one seriously bat shit crazy man.
If President Trump can do it on Truth Social...
I don't believe the hype on this weird situation at all. Why is Dean letting this situation roll without comment? One official remark from Dean would bring it to a stop. Yet continued radio silence from him. Something doesn't add up.
Beware of younger men who appear full on gung-ho for the past. For no-one supported Herbert Armstrong's ideas more than young Joseph Tkatch Snr. Beware if a situation seems weird or a person doesn't ring true it usually ain't.
The other thing Sam ignores is that some of these groups teach that the church splintering is a type of America fragmenting into several nations, and becoming third world. This includes losing its present military power. So Sam is fighting the prophetic beliefs of certain of these groups, which might include the UCG.
If I were Aaron, I'd be ignoring Sam, too. Don't even open that dialogue. Don't dignify preposterousness by acknowledging it.
Awful situation. Both appear to be like Hebrew National Franks, answering to a higher power. I like it better my way. If someone gets in your face with something stupid and won't back down, you shoot them the double bird! Cue Tom Petty's "Jammin' Me,"
I know from conversations with Nathan Albright that Albright suffers from much of us as well. He wondered why my members doing things like this would never successful, compared to elders. I had to explain SUCCESSION yet again to him.
I will be sending him this.
BB,
You hit the nail on the head! COG is a microcosm of SDA theology that never found its footing after the demise of its "demi-god" HWA.
Totally messed up that paragraph.
* I know from conversations with Nathan Albright that Albright suffers from much of this as well. He wondered why lay members doing things like this would never successful, compared to elders. I had to explain SUCCESSION yet again to him.
The thing is, HWA left his loyal members with a dumpster fire involving an enigma, wrapped in a dilemma, fueled by a conundrum! And, no T-shirts were even given out!
Was HWA God's endtime apostle? If so, his chosen successor, Joseph Tkach was inspired by God to make the doctrinal corrections. God would not have allowed failure, and those who rebelled and failed to accept the corrections were rebelling against the successor apostle, and in so doing, fighting God.
Did HWA make a mistake in ordaining Joseph Tkach as his successor? If God were truly inspiring HWA, this would not have been possible. If God had intended the WCG, with HWA's doctrines intact, to "finish the work", God would have corrected the situation in such a way as to continue the work, and definitely not for the ones preserving the original doctrines to splinter into insignificance. He would not have allowed HWA's momentum to be lost and for the generation which had been warned to pass or forget the warning. While HWA and GTA had had a huge, looming presence at the movement's heyday, very few people even remember their names or message today, let alone having any knowledge of the alleged successor groups!
Neither the group which embraced the corrections, nor the rebels who dedicated themselves to preserving the original doctrines have experienced the presence or growth which HWA's original had enjoyed! Raymond Cole had had a unique theory that in "caving in" and changing certain doctrines, HWA had actually left his own church, but COGE, now presided over by Jon Brisby, is just as insignificant and invisible as all the other splinters!
Again and again, from any vantage point, Gamliel's axiom seems to apply to the Armstrong movement any way in which we examine it! It appears to have been spewed from the mouth of God, by design. If there was a combination to be found, or math to be corrected, nobody has been inspired to take it up or apply it! No super-blessed group has emerged bearing anything close to the growth and presence of the original. And that is because the original was never what HWA preached it as being! The proof lies in the history of the movement from the '90s to present! We laughed, or were angered by HWA's contemporary imposters who exploited God and collected followers for the purpose of their own fame and fortune! Their followers felt that they were called, too! Why is it so difficult for some to realize that HWA was amongst that same group of imposters, and that we were similarly victimized and deceived?
BB
wrapped in an enigma
BB, you’re saying some thing I noticed before, but didn’t say anything about it: “[H]uge looming presence.” The reality is that Armstrong/WCG/CGI really weren’t that well known. Because of how you grew up, you got that impression. Whatever outside influences you had, it was still your home base.
ACOG members today can start to labor under the same delusion. They know that the reach is not like before, but in their minds, with the inflated numbers they hear from the pulpit, they think they really are doing something. Then add in Laodicea and a rehash of the Tkach-era “God is focused on getting the Church ready” stuff. They think they are in part two of a trilogy — the calmer, substantive transition between the initial and conclusive action. (Think Empire Strikes Back or Back to the Future 2.)
They are like the little kid who sets up a website about, say, cats, gets a dozen hits a day, and thinks it is the center of the feline blogosphere. When in fact, half of those hits come from the kid him/herself forgetting to log in.*
The truth is they are a huge looming presence even now — a big looming presence in their own faith tradition.
* I worked on a young people’s forum about cats, and we had a number of young people under such delusion about their own sites. Actually kind of sad.
Well, Lee, I did get used to events like Garner Ted appearing on Hee Haw, Steve Miller mentioning GTA's improbable collision of bad events which would supposedly lead to the end times during a Rolling Stone interview, The Bonzo Dog Band name-checking GTA in one of their songs, so many dignitaries and powerful people around the world meeting with HWA, including Franz Josef Strauss who actually visited. Ambassador College in Pasadena.
When I worked at AC Press, HWA frequently brought well-known, powerful people from around the world on tours of the press. At one time, the WCG was pulling in far more donations than any of the other well-known evangelistic efforts, and the circulation of the Plain Truth rivalled that of some of the well-known secular magazines of the day. I know this all too well, because I and my team were responsible for addressing them on the Cheshire cut and glue labeler, and sorting, tying, and bagging them so that they could be entered at the bulk mailing center of the Pasadena Post Office. Numerous resort areas in the USA and abroad enjoyed a huge influx of money coming into their economies each Fall as a result of the Feast of Tabernacles being held in their locations.
Then, there was the huge budget for The World Tomorrow program on nearly every 50,000 watt AM radio station across the USA. And, later TV. The "program" was unavoidable!
I don't know where or when you grew up, but this exposure, and these numbers would still be considered very respectable even today! I laugh my ass off when I hear people say the circulation of the PT was highly exaggerated, because I actually touched each one of them every month that I worked at the Press.
UH Oh, now I'm beginning to sound like my buddy nck!
BB
7:24 & 11:10 & 4:50
Yep. Dean should definitely consider a restraining order and I reckon following the example to remain silent and not comment is probably best ATM like the saying, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt.” If in the future he does file a restraining order then would be the appropriate time to make a comment since your top priority is your own safety and that of your family and if his family are feeling threatened in any way then he needs to act accordingly to nip this nonsense in the bud.
The only problem is that Aaron communicates with those whack jobs.
Bonzo Dog Band? Never heard of it.
Those meetings with dignitaries were based on bribes and Foundation projects. Hee Haw appearance was based on personal friendship with Buck Owens (plus, that I am in a lot of WT yes was GT, not HW). PT subs were free, not always read, and in some cases sent literally unsolicited. Plus, numbers might include a newsstand distribution. Feast sites weren’t that big compared to other events. The appreciable aspect was that they occurred in the off-season. Like I said, it was your world, and you saw at the way they told you to see.
All that said, I do know Armstrong and WCG were alluded to Law and Order style in the 1979 Quincy episode “Mode of Death”: an evangelist named “Osbourne” leading the “Divine World Church,” which was in receivership. Great advertising there. So yes, WCG did have some public recognition.
Found it: Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band. Comedy and satire. So yes, people may have heard of it. And that’s the way it was seen. Plus again, GT was not HW.
Who are you fooling ? Herbert Armstrong repeatedly said a milion times the work would end when he died. And ironically it did. There is no such thing as a succession of Pastor generals from Herbert onwards.
The propaganda from Tkatchites is always Herbert appointed Joe Snr on his death bed. But the rumours always abounded that Herbert was murdered by injection after being coerced to sign Tkaches name.
A restrainîng order can only be granted if there's proof of actual meance or harrassment. So far all Sam has done is proclaim Aaron to be HWA's legal heir. He hasn't shown up on Aaron's doorstep or at a church service to proclaim him the new apostle of the WCG. The best thing for him to do os to ignore Sam and let him rant on.
Ok Lee. News stand? That tells me more about the era you came from. We didn't have news stand distribution of the PT during my era.
Were you at least around when L.A.'s hoitiest of the toitiest were making the Ambassador Auditorium concert scene? I was long gone by then, but it did make the newspapers.
Receivership was bad publicity, but another case of "everybody knows"!
The point could be made that nobody in the ACOGs have even come close to the recognition garnered (pun intended) by HWA. Ian Boyne got further along on this than anyone else. Sure do miss his visits with us here!
See nck for expanded views of the international presence. He's the house expert on that.
BB
Hoitiest? You mean like Ronald Reagan? Oh, wait. That was a false Nck story. Not that it indicates anything about general awareness. How many common people follow the Tony Awards?
ANost of the people attending had no idea whatsoever about the religion behind it. Kind of like people attending Celtic Throne performances.
It’s like people attempting to use Charlie Kirk as proof of widespread attention among conservatives toward the seventh-day sabbath. Most of his supporters had no idea of his practice. Or trying to use Paul Harvey for that purpose. He attended SDA..
I saw on Wikipedia, or someplace the claim that Armstrong HW was the most famous seventh-day Sabbatarian of the 20th century. More people heard of Paul Harvey. But they didn’t know him to be any kind of seventh-day person. (Plus, George Vandeman would be in the running for that title as well.)
It’s really not material to the matter that the individuals were known. It’s what they were known for. But that’s not what the Armstrong culture ingrained in people. Lol I remember riding with a deacon to far-off Holyday services. We passed in Armstrong Tire store, and he pointed at it, and said knowingly, “Armstrong!” He didn’t mean anything by it really, but in his mind that personal name and the faith were essentially synonymous. That of course is not how most people saw that sign.
When people did hear of the religion, they heard Mike Wallace. They saw that Quincy ep. Or Garner Ted on video in 1995. So yes, there was some general knowledge of Armstrongism. It’s like general knowledge of the Branch Davidians. It was not the intended result of their actions. And yes, there is such a thing as bad publicity.
The difference is that more people of heard of the Branch Davidians.
Add in the exaggeration and confirmation bias — you saw what you were told to see.
Example of Armstrongist fake news and confirmation bias: The increase in animal attacks on humans during a certain seven-year before 1972. One of the Leviticus 26 curses involved animal attacks, so members were told to send in clippings of such news. Between focusing on newspaper stories they normally would never have given a perusal, and those stories being discussed in church publications, a lot of those members actually believed — and might still believe, regardless of their current religiosity — that was a rampant increase in such events. There wasn’t.
Look, I get the Stockholm function here. We like to believe that, even if it was wrong, we were part of a big thing. This is especially true in your situation. If I was having this conversation with mainstream Christians, I would be tempted to accentuate this sort of thing as well. But it wouldn’t make it true.
Additional point: If WCG/Armstrongism was indeed, such a looming presence, what happened in 1995 with retracted a lot more attention than it did outside of Christian publications. Nightline? 60 Minutes? Dateline? 20/20? Did any of those do stories? Genuine question. Did the late-night comics take shots? Branch Davidians had a made-for-TV movie made about the situation while it was still going on!
And in more current times, even the LCG church shooting failed to draw much attention at all, let alone to the religion. Although part of that was because it was a White conservative church, no ARs were involved, and a Sikh temple was attacked a few days later in the same state.
I remember in 1996, moving to a different city. As I walked in the parking lot of a strip mall, I looked around at all the people calling about the typical business. I thought about how they were all oblivious to the biggest, mostest thing going on in Creation: the spiritual battle of the ACOGs. Then I explained it by how it was part of the spiritual realm. Now I understand it was nothing but a subculture with the occasional pop-up into mainstream society.
Additional point: If WCG/Armstrongism was indeed, such a looming presence, what happened in 1995 would have attracted a lot more attention than it did outside of Christian publications. Nightline? 60 Minutes? Dateline? 20/20? Did any of those do stories? Genuine question. Did the late-night comics take shots? Any coverage in mainstream news outside of Los Angeles and East Texas? I’m sure there was some, but In Transition didn’t say much about it. Branch Davidians had a made-for-TV movie made about the situation while it was still going on!
And in more current times, even the LCG church shooting failed to draw much attention at all, let alone to the religion. Although part of that was because it was a White conservative church, no ARs were involved, and a Sikh temple was attacked a few days later in the same state.
I remember in 1996, moving to a different city. As I walked in the parking lot of a strip mall, I looked around at all the people calling about the typical business. I thought about how they were all oblivious to the biggest, mostest thing going on in Creation: the spiritual battle of the ACOGs. Then I explained it by how it was part of the spiritual realm. Now I understand it was nothing but a subculture with the occasional pop-up into mainstream society.
What Sam is doing is akin to celebrity stalking. He is in awe of Aaron. The problem with that psychology is that usually if the celebrity rebuffs, rejects, or attempts to create proper distance, the stalker eventually becomes angry and destructive.
If Aaron were a member of RCG, or PCG, responding with similar anger to the stalker would probably be perfectly acceptable for a member of the ministry. I don't know a lot about UCG, but tend to think that a minister would lose face by so indulging.
We all have our expectations and criteria, Lee, with which we judge and discern. I try to go after Armstrongism and to "get" them clean. While the impact never really grew to match the self-generated hype of the organization at large, we really can't dismiss it and say that it was nothing, and had no influence. Kind of hard to miss TWT radio programs, ubiquitous on the old AM clear channel radio stations at night, back in the 1950s and '60s.
Now, we actually can accurately critique the comparative lack of presence of the ACOG splinters, although even there, we have seen occasional blips, like Flurry's Irish Dancing productions which have nothing to do with preaching the Armstrong half a gospel. Ian Boyne's TV program was huge in Jamaica, but to my knowledge it was secular and separate. He had invited me down there, to see it all, but I never took him up on it.
The overwhelming point which we can make is that if HWA were sounding an inspired end time warning, the influence was time and date stamped and only lasted during his own lifetime. Those who heard it back in those days have either died off, or are now octagenarians. And that message has not been replaced with one of equal or greater power for current generations. Had his message been from God, it would have become greatly amplified as world conditions continue to deteriorate. But, it's dead and forgotten except by little notalgia groups. Where in the Bible do we find an example of a prophet or messenger's message simply petering out?
BB
Sorry to make this so long. We can go back-and-forth on the cup-half-full versus cup-half-empty of Armstrongist influence all day. But there are a couple things here or saying…
“[T]he influence was time and date stamped and only lasted during his own lifetime.” — Agreed. That’s why Flurry adulterates MOA. And it’s why next January could be very interesting.
“Ubiquitous.” — This is where I have my objection. Unless you were around at that time, or find none-Armstrongist source is saying that, it sounds like internal propaganda. And given what I do know of your background, you would’ve heard a lot of it.
Boyne’s program: I only barely remember it, maybe because it was in JAMAICA. So it doesn’t mean a thing. It’s like drawing something from Armstrongism’s splash in the Big Sandy area. Big fish – small pond. And if it was secular, then it is like looking at the Osmonds as indicative of Mormon message influence. And maybe the 1960 George Romney Presidential run. It goes to positive or negative public perceptions of that religious community, but honestly Battlestar Galactica put more specifically Mormon ideas out.
That noted, it does hurt that Armstrongists don’t have any (serious) pop culture representation. There was the “Sundown Kid,” but they don’t like to talk about him.
It’s probably part of the nature of a smallish cult to think that a member of their community having success constitutes something about their religion’s effectiveness. Yes, kinda like a few Sabbatarians looking at Charlie Kirk, only much more cultish. (I’m waiting to hear the claim that his assassination was successful, while Trump and Kavanaugh survived theirs, because Satan wanted to silence the Sabbath message.)
Simply put: Just because something is done by a member of your church/faith tradition, doesn’t mean that your church/faith tradition is having an impact. Dan Seals was rather successful in Country music, but you didn’t see his fans flocking to Baha’i Faith. (His old partner, John Ford Coley, even left the faith for Christianity. In an interview, he wouldn’t even say its name.)
A little entertainment: “My kind of ‘diversity’” in Country: https://catsgunsandnationalsecurity.blogspot.com/2025/04/yes-beyonce-we-already-have-diversity.html?m=1
Armstrong would create very false impressions of what he was doing. I remember reading in US/BC about the “pirate ships” used to broadcast WT into Britain. I got the idea that the church itself had set up the ships. In fact, it was nothing but an unrelated private enterprise operation selling airtime to whoever. It was years before I found out he didn’t have that little navy to match his little air force. It was deception, and the member who explained it to me acknowledged it was deception. I wasn’t the only person to get that idea.
Then in the 1990s, there was the “Sheriff of Doulla,” a paraplegic Black man in some African country, who made his living, selling postcard pictures of himself in a cowboy hat. When his hat was stolen, some visiting UCG ministers replaced it. People thought he was a member. He wasn’t, but it sounded better for them to think he was.
I suspect if you ask yourself why you believe what you believe about this, you will find something similar: deceptive impressions — told with religious authority, no disclaimers, and no practical way to check them at the time.
And for the record, I did think about Dwight Stone and Bobby Fischer, but I am given to understand that they were never actually members. But I should’ve noted them as pop-culture figures associated with Armstrongism.
I understand your agenda, Lee. You've explained it very clearly. You are an anti-Armstrong activist, seeking to deprogram the remaining Armstrongites. I'm against all mind-control cults whether they be of a religious nature, or political. You and I differ in that I feel that cult members need to bottom out on all the negatives and deceptions of their group think, and then make a rational, survival-based decision to leave. I do not believe in fighting mind control with mind control. Trying to sell culties on leaving is like riding a smoker's back about their filthy habit. It makes them fight harder to preserve their sacred cow, and can set the bottoming out process for years.
Back in the '60s, we never were told, or believed, that the church started the Pirate Radio stations. We were told that the fees which the church paid for broadcast time greatly helped them in meeting the costs to keep the ships alive and operating. It was suggested that this gave the church a certain amount of leverage. These ships filled a serious vacuum and usurped the authority of the British government because prior to their advent, the BBC held a monopoly on radio (and TV), and the content presented. In the early 2,000's, I exchanged email with someone calling himself "John England" whose theory was that HWA was a CIA shill, made so due to his many treasonous statements about the USA in his radio program during World War II. This "John England" was searching for individuals who might substantiate his theory of possible CIA involvement in the Pirate Ships. I was then, and am now, very vocal on my opinions regarding HWA/WCG/AC, but am not in any way involved in any clandestine operations, nor do I have secret insider information. In fact, I was searching for insider information myself, but my questions for "John England", though we had a cordial discussion, went unanswered. I believe that the CIA and FBI knew who HWA was, but I do not believe that he was under their control. He said far too much for either agency to trust him, and some of the people in his entourage were very flagrant in their activities.
I will say that there is a lot of revisionist history ongoing these days. A church member who died in 1969 would not even begin to fathom some of the ridiculous things which are being repeated by revisionists. Part of my role here is to clean that up. Get them "clean" as I stated in my earlier response. This is something which I took from the example set by John Trechak, my friend and co-worker for a time at AC Press, who created Ambassador Reports (archived at the Painful Truth). John always insisted on corroborating the information which he published with 2-3 sources.
I don't know who Dwight Stone is or was. Apparently that's a common name, which makes Google nearly useless. However, my friend, and weight training coach at AC, Harry Schneider, was Bobby Fischer's body guard while Bobby was living in Pasadena. I do not recall ever hearing that Bobby had been baptized. He did financially contribute to the WCG, and I believe was considered to be a coworker. Sadly, he later went off the rails. This sometimes happens with brilliant people.
I'm finished with this discussion. You can have the final word.
BB
Dwight StoneS, actually. I didn’t correct it when I saw the typo because I thought it was so obvious. He was an Olympic athlete, trained a little on the AC campus. I remember a picture of him on the field talking to Herbie. There’s no reason Google wouldn’t bring him up even with the typo. And I’m surprised you hadn’t heard of him simply as an athlete. Very surprised.
As for the ships, what people were told on the inside, closer to the time of the ships — including the exaggeration of how much the church’s renting of some air time contributed to the operation — would be different than impressions given to outsiders expressing interest. I started in the mid to late 1980s. That was far enough distant from the event that many members would never have heard the truth, thereby facilitating the deception.
What I want is to get the True Church/Succession debunking into their common knowledge. Maybe sprinkle it with some disproof of the traditional Civic Duty rejection, which I assure you is a bit of an issue among converts. You might not appreciate that, because you were born into it. Many go along with it simply because Herbie said so. Debunking that will go far to breaking them of cult adherence.
You really are very protective and even defensive of the impact claims of Armstrong. It is actually bizarre. Look, just because your family was involved doesn’t mean all the stories they told were true. It also doesn’t mean that the operation which they were involved was that big. You would lied to. Your family was lied to. And your family probably lied to you a little bit.
I did try “Dwight Stone” specifically in Google. I guess if you didn’t know who the guy was at all, which is very surprising, you wouldn’t spot it.
I don’t know why you didn’t know who he was.
Interesting debate between Byker Bob and Lee Walker. Byker, besides all your other points, don't forget the international publicity the WCG received from Denis Michael Rohan, the arsonist responsible for the Al-Aqsa mosque fire, which took place in Jerusalem on 21 August 1969.
I have two anecdotal observations to add. In my Junior High years, I was knee deep in the teachings of the WCG. In social studies classes, I frequently quoted the Plain Truth in written class compositions. My teachers knew of the Plain Truth magazine. In 1972, I began a career in Commercial radio broadcasting, working at a 1,000-watt daytimer serving Washington/Baltimore for 4 years. One day, I got called into the owner's office and happened to glance down at a notepad sitting on his desk. Written on the notepad was the name "Garner Ted Armstrong". The owner was looking into selling radio time to the WCG for TWT radio program.
The Armstrongs & WCG were well known. An anomaly. Every ACOG is only a low-wattage work far unknown by comparison.
Richard
Interesting debate between Byker Bob and Lee Walker. Byker, besides all your other points, don't forget the international publicity the WCG received from Denis Michael Rohan, the arsonist responsible for the Al-Aqsa mosque fire, which took place in Jerusalem on 21 August 1969.
I have two anecdotal observations to add. In my Junior High years, I was knee deep in the teachings of the WCG. In social studies classes, I frequently quoted the Plain Truth in written class compositions. My teachers knew of the Plain Truth magazine. In 1972, I began a career in Commercial radio broadcasting, working at a 1,000-watt daytimer serving Washington/Baltimore for 4 years. One day, I got called into the owner's office and happened to glance down at a notepad sitting on his desk. Written on the notepad was the name "Garner Ted Armstrong". The owner was looking into selling radio time to the WCG for TWT radio program.
The Armstrongs & WCG were well known. An anomaly. Every ACOG is only a low-wattage work far unknown by comparison.
Richard
Lee seems to feel that this succession thing is original with him, and is the key to unlocking Armstrongites' minds. It's been one of the regular topics on all the Armstrong blogs for as long as I can remember, and to my knowledge, it has never fazed a single Armstrongite. They believe what "God's Apostle" has told them about the endless chain, and not real, verifiable history. Same as they do with church history. Same as they do with dna evidence. Same as they do with prophecies which never come to pass. It's cause their belief is in the source of their beliefs (HWA) rather than facts. They have their own reasons to believe they've been called to follow him. They laugh with us about Bob Thiel or Sam Kitchen, but can't recognize the same thought process in themselves. Anyone with the brains God gave to a mule can see that.
Lee will learn. It's like the punchline to an old Flip Wilson joke, in which a Native American drinking at the bar with him tells Flip, "Just wait until the white man finishes playing Cowboys and Colored people with you people!"
Lee's gonna be really pi$$3d that this one made it past the moderators!
Of course, somebody in the radio biz would know of them and want to sell them airtime. If Tkach is to be believed on this, Armstrong pay top dollar with no negotiations. As for teachers, are you sure they didn’t know of PT because of you? Just a little cross examination.
And for a serious question: When you saw GT’s name on the boss’s desk, did the boss act like you of course knew who it was, like he would Jerry Falwell in the 1980s, or did he explain, “Yes, he has some crack pot preacher on the radio. But his church pays top dollar for airtime”?
Here’s my anecdote: When Pervo passed away, I learned of it via a brief news blip. I don’t recall if it was CNN or, more likely, one of the half-hour network news shows: “ Herbert W Armstrong, [Insert basic credentials], passed away today. He was 94.” That was it. Not even a news story about his controversies. No documentaries that I recall. Guaranteed you would’ve had a lot more if it had been Orel Roberts or Jerry Falwell. Or even Robert Schuller.
Looking back, I wish he had been more famous, so I could’ve seen those stories. But this points to a greater truth: Armstrong benefited from NOT being as well known as some of you think he was. Such notoriety would’ve brought far more scrutiny than cult watcher articles in niche magazines and 15 minutes of fame on 60 Minutes. President Reagan sent condolences upon Armstrong’s death. President Clinton did not send condolences on the death of David Koresh. President Biden did not send condolences on the death of “Brother Stair.” (Obama and Carter did send condolences to Cuba when Castro keeled over. Donald Trump just tweeted, “Fidel was dead!”) Had Armstrong been better known, with all that dirty laundry out there, Reagan might’ve thought twice, and Pat Robertson would not have contacted WCG about his presidential run. The biggest reason current ACOGs fail so miserably is that there is too much information out there about them, thanks to the inter-webs. Armstrong would never have gotten anything except maybe jail time if he tried his game today.
Finally, regarding BB talking about the FBI and CIA knowing of Armstrong: OF COURSE THEY DID! They know everything. Between conscientious objection and just being a religious movement, they would know about it. GT would brag that Vatican was tracking him, and clean that meant they knew they “have the truth.” The actual truth, though, is that the Vatican tracks EVERY religion. They know every Buddhist sect. They know African tribal religions. Come on, they have a telescope. They probably know every Martian religion!😁 But to the devoted Armstrongist, it sounds impressive. And even for those who leave, it can take work to get past that impression.
Just a reminder, folks: Anyone here, with the guts enough to discuss things with me without a moderator, I can be contacted on TruthSocial at @LTWalker03.
As with Dennis, I hope they will have the courage to identify themselves.
Yeah, right! We're really going to participate in Orangie's platform? You're dreaming.
Lee will be pi$$3d to learn that he is NOT the end-all for every conversation here. Most ignore his self-important, arrogant posts.
Ha ha ! 5:51 Agree. It's a trap to gather evidence on any peasants (members).
If you visit someone's blog, doesn't that mean they have your IP Address? (among other things).
4:44 VPN.
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