The Resurrection of Lazarus (Fair Use)
Undiscovered Country
Soul Sleep or the Intermediate State?
By Scout
“The undiscover'd country from whose bourn, No traveller returns, puzzles the will…” — Hamlet (Act 3, Scene 1)
If you receive your resurrection body at the return of Jesus but you die well ahead of that time, what happens to you during the interim? Mainstream Christianity supports the idea that you continue to be conscious and live in Paradise but in a disembodied stated. This condition is referred to as the Intermediate State. An assortment of small sects (prominently, Armstrongists, Jehovah’s Witnesses and Christadelphians) believe that you are unconscious during this interval. This condition is an unconscious state called Soul Sleep. Herbert W. Armstrong stated that he died and assured his followers that there was no consciousness in the state of death but I always thought that was tongue-in-cheek rather than doctrinal.
I can’t say that I align neatly with either view. I believe in a variation of the Intermediate State view. This is because I do not believe that God designed us to live without a body. So, I agree with the standard Intermediate State view but I think we will have some kind of a preliminary body after death but prior to final resurrection. (This intermediate corporality is seen in Matthew 17:3 where Moses and Elijah appear. Jesus refers to this as a vision (Greek, horama) but the term means spectacle and does not automatically suggest that what was seen was unreal.).
In considering such questions, it is useful to be familiar with the terminology used in the Bible. In this writing I am going to use the model of a human being that was widely accepted during the period of Second Temple Judaism. This would be a tripartite model that consists, in Greek terminology, of sarx, psuche and pneuma. These three terms correspond respectively to the flesh, the lively implementation of the body and the spirit. While there are various ways that the body might be mapped to these three elements, these are the general categories. (Atheism, of course, would assert a different model in which there is no such thing as spirit and the three elements are really just a single chemical product. A discussion of these manifold variations is beyond the scope of this brief essay.)
The next two sections discuss what I feel to be solid support for the intermediate state. I will not discuss the arguments that favor Soul Sleep. I will let the proponents of that idea respond. I am interested in what they will assert.
The Support of the Intermediate State from the Pattern Set by Jesus
Jesus is the forerunner (Hebrews 6:20). He is the firstborn among many brethren and we are to follow in his footsteps. This of course does not mean that each of us will be nailed to a cross, at least physically. While there is no precise conformity to the experience of Jesus, the essential steps in the process of salvation, the general ordo salutis, are very unlikely to be radically different from what Jesus experienced. So, it is reasonable to look to the pattern of events in his life in the flesh to see reflected the unfolding of events for us. To put a fine point on it, Paul wrote in Romans 6:5, “For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we will certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.”
An important part of this picture is to recognize that the spirit or pneuma is separable from the sarx and psuche. The latter two are regarded as mortal by scholars of Second Temple Judaism and Early Christianity. And the pneuma is regarded as ever-living. The idea that “man is a soul” found in the language of the Old Testament is much more nuanced in the New Testament. As in many cases, the New Testament unpacks the Old.
Jesus referred to this separability in Luke 23:46 when he said, “’Father, into your hands I commend my spirit (pneuma).’ Having said this, he breathed his last.” So, his sarx and psuche were going to cease operation and be entombed. But his pneuma had a different destination. And we can know more about that destination.
At death, Jesus did not slip into some kind of existential coma for three days. (Please don’t start figuring out how many days and nights. This is not about calendar antics.) The pneuma is made to give mental life, personality and sentience. It is not a sleeper. Consonant with this we find that Jesus was active during the three days his physical body was in the tomb. In the doctrine of the Harrowing of Hell, Jesus preached to “the spirits in prison.” (There are alternative interpretations of this but the Harrowing of Hell was advocated by many of the Patristics. Armstrongism also holds the view that Christ preached during this period (R. McNair, Good News, December 1979). This view will be supported further in the next section.)
So, Jesus did not experience Soul Sleep. If he is the pattern for us, then this pattern does not support Soul Sleep for us.
The Support of the Intermediate State from Scripture
There are a couple of scriptures that have direct application to this issue. The scriptures are not without controversy and alternative interpretations. The first is Jesus’ statement to the Thief on the Cross. The interpretation of this event is colored mostly by the Comma Placement Theory. Since Greek lacked punctuation that argument will spin perpetually. I would like to instead look at circumstances. Here is the scripture from NRSV:
“Jesus, remember me when you come in your kingdom.” He replied, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:42-43)
The Thief introduces a time element: when you come into your Kingdom. The Thief in effect serves the ball into Jesus’ court. And Jesus responds with a time element that is an answer to the Thief’s time element. Jesus does not tell the Thief that “it’s going to be a while before I am resurrected, so it will be a few.” Jesus does not say, “You are going to be unconscious for a long, long time and then be in Paradise.” Jesus gave a direct, unadorned, unqualified answer. It was not Jesus’ purpose to obfuscate but to clarify. Jesus was not the artful dodger who was trying to divert someone off the path of truth. This timing also comports with the fact that Jesus said in Luke 23:46, at the moment of his death, that he was committing his spirit to the Father. The timing language expresses immediacy and not delay. From other scriptures, his ascent to the Father may not have been immediate but his ascent to Paradise was.
The second scripture I will consider is a watershed in this debate. In the “Parable” of Lazarus and the Rich Man, Jesus describes the two characters as being in a state of bodily existence in the afterlife but before the resurrection. This would be the Intermediate State with, I believe, some kind of intermediate body. I have enclosed the term “parable” in quotes because I do not believe this is a parable. I believe it is a narrative. It may be parabolic in the sense that the two characters are fictional, though even that is not certain. But there is no need for the entire setting to be deemed parabolic because on aspect is.
Consider that Jesus knew that this passage would be read by the others who were members of the Elect in the future. Would he construct a fiction that misled readers about the nature of the afterlife? No, he would use the real circumstances. To construct a fictional setting would cast a light of theological uncertainty on the entire testimony. If there is anything that Christ intended you to believe, it is the circumstances. The characters can be fictional archetypes and it diminishes nothing. But the circumstances speak meaning. Jesus did not craftily and deceptively set out to pull our legs. My conclusion is that this passage should be classed as a narrative and not a parable. Calling it a parable is a license to grant a few people encouragement to fictionalize the whole account.
Finally, Lazarus
At one time I thought that the man that Paul described in 2 Corinthians 12 as having gone to Paradise was Lazarus. But the timing for this, though somewhat vague, does not seem to work. What I can say, is that I don’t believe the popular view that Paul was talking about himself. If there were ever a chance to bring clarity to the issue of the afterlife, the case of the resurrection of Lazarus would be the best. We could have a few neat verses where someone asked Lazarus where he had been and what he saw and heard while dead in the tomb. And Lazarus could give us some useful and no doubt absorbing information. Maybe some information that is not privileged but just some general logistics. But nothing is preserved for us. Without a doubt someone asked Lazarus about his period of death but whatever he said did not enter scripture. Like Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12: “a person … was caught up into paradise and heard things that are not to be told, that no mortal is permitted to repeat.” It is interesting that God did not use the case of Lazarus to explain the afterlife. My guess is that in the great array of pressing issues, it is not that important in the present context. One day we will all find out. In the last analysis, I think the data supports the idea of the Intermediate State best. Yet, if I miss the mark and I awaken in the next life and someone tells me that I have been asleep for thousands of years, like some mighty Rip Van Winkle, I won’t stress.
59 comments:
IMO.....I'll go with soul sleep/katheudó ....Mat 9:24; Mark 5:39.
It's difficult to believe Jesus said to the thief what day it was when He spoke.....of course it was "today" when He spoke. I'll go with.....their spirits go to the same place after dying.
Jesus died in the flesh, was made alive by the Spirit after "three days and three nights" and spoke to the spirits in prison before revealing Himself after His resurrection to anyone?
I've heard it said that it is bad theology to use prophecy to establish doctrine, but HWA certainly did exactly that, so I believe that in any discussion of the after life we must factor in Rev 6:9-11, which speaks of the souls of the martyrred crying out to be avenged, as if they were alive and waiting. This could certainly be taken as evidence of an intermediate state.
HWA always portrayed his church as having an exclusive. All the answers. Over the years I've realized that many of his answers left considerable room for debate. The members were conditioned to treat these answers as if they had come from an Apostle, and most members even today are reluctant ro reconsider or question the so-called restored truths.
Setting aside what happens with our own souls, let's consider what happened to Jesus.
Since He is God and man, the one who created all things visible and invisible, and has lived in eternity -- is it not ridiculous to think that the Creator was unconscious and totally out of it in every way when he died on the Cross?
To think he needed at least one more "God Being" to rescue him from eternal annihilation, bringing him back from the dead since he was helplessly gone -- it is absurd. "Necessary Existence" is never under threat of not existing.
But then back to us. What HWA called the "spirit in man" -- it is that spirit or soul that vivifies the body. It's not the body that vivifies the soul. Spirit does not need nutrition or blood or any chemical process to exist or function. It's quite the other way around. The body relies on the soul.
What we call bodily death is the separation of soul and body. Since body is physical, we see what it does at death (or rather what it doesn't do), but spirit is invisible. We understand, due to its nature, that it doesn't disintegrate like the body does.
The soul doesn't function to its full potential because it is also meant to animate the body, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it doesn't continue with its other spiritual functions.
"Paradise" is the second resurrection, plain and simple. The thief will be resurrected following the millennium, along with the rest of mankind.
I think some including respected authors understand 1 Peter as teaching an immediate descent by Jesus. This because 1 Peter 3:18–19 is taken literally and sequentially:
“He was put to death in the flesh”
“But made alive in the spirit”
“In which He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison”
That is to say the first report of death; then it says Jesus's spirit is alive yet he is yet to be resurrected in bodily form; and His spirit proceeds to proclaim a message to the imprisoned angels/or whatever those beings were. . That is this all occurs between death and resurrection, not after the three days.
Anonymous 5:21 wrote, ""Paradise" is the second resurrection, plain and simple. "
You proclaim this as "plain and simple" and then give us something utterly off-the-wall and provide no explanation. How about some blog etiquette?
Scout
Anonymous 3:52 wrote, "What we call bodily death is the separation of soul and body."
I appreciate your perceptive comments. Overall, I think we suffer from the inadequate translation of terms when we try to wade through this topic. I will preface my statement by pointing out that soul is most often used as the translation of psuche. And psuche seems to the operating system, if I may borrow a term from computer science, that provides the running environment for sarx and pneuma. Sarx is the flesh in isolation. It does not do anything except be alive. Pneuma is the seat of personality and mentation. It makes us why we are as persona and I think equates to the "spirit in man." Psuche, the operating system, contains utility programming for the body and also provides an implementation environment for pneuma developed algorithms. This is a challenging set of concepts to deal with. It may be in reality rhetorical rather than anthropological. One day we will find out for certain. The upshot is that it is better to say that death is the separation of the spirit, rather than the soul, from the body.
Thanks for your comment.
Scout
I find a lot of "ifs", " ands", and "buts" here, but that's alright, it is a broad subject. Even the "mainstreams" have their differences. Rome has its version, Greek Orthodox theirs, and the Reformers were divided as well. I think this is apparent when talking to the average layman on the street. Ask him WHAT is salvation for the righteous and the punishment of the wicked and the overwhelming response is, a PLACE. When one dies, both the righteous and the wicked go to a PLACE. End of story. The reality is, the Bible paints a broader picture.
To be "awakened from sleep" is the classic metaphor used in Scripture for death and resurrection ( see Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29, 1 Corinthians 15:13-18). This is not speculation, but is confirmed by the great themes of the new testament.
--Judgement does not take place at the very moment of death (as depicted in Luke 16), but after the return of Christ (2 Tim.4:1, Rev.20:5, 11-15).
-The Christian HOPE is the resurrection at Christ's coming. (Titus 2:13, Acts 24:15, 1 John 3:2-3).
The Christian's INHERITANCE is fulfilled at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).
The 3rd and final phase of the salvation sequence (glorification) takes place at the resurrection (1 Corinthians 15:43, Col.3:4, Phil.3:21), showing the RESURRECTION AT CHRISTS COMING IS THE KEY TO THE AFTERLIFE, and not an intermediate state. This is Holy Bible, not Armstrongism.
It's easy to jump on the mainstream bandwagon when the purpose is to find flaws in the Millerite movement. But things have changed since mainstream podcaster and former actor Kirk Cameron had the audacity to challenge the orthodox teaching on "hell", suggesting " conditioned immortality " and annihilationism was the more scriptural view. Since then, several big named mainstreamers have lost their fear of Rome and are coming forth in the affirmative. Time will only tell if this continues to pick up traction or not.
Soul Sleepers:
Do you actually believe Jesus, the Creator and Son of God, was unconscious and helplessly out of commission -- powerless and practically out of the picture -- while his dead body was in the tomb?
I would like someone to address that.
BP*
If the term “sleep” is a metaphor used to refer to conscious life in the intermediate state, then it is only natural to extend that metaphor and refer to resurrection as an awakening. But is the metaphor really a metaphor. Might it not be a real-world narrative description of some kind of unconscious state. Semantics do not sort out for us the actual existential state of the dead person. We must resort to other scriptures. I will now present such a resort.
First, Paul uses this language as metaphor. Paul writes in Ephesians 5:14, “Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.” And you can read the context and see that he is using this metaphor to upbraid living people. So, it is not unheard of in scripture to use this terminology metaphorically to refer to the living.
Second, Paul in 1 Corinthians 13-18 uses the Greek term “egeiro” to refer to the resurrection. This word has a number of meanings besides “awakening.” One of them is simply to cause to rise. Paul also uses the Greek term “anistemi” in similar scriptures which simply means to rise up but does not mean literally to awaken. So, is Paul actually talking about sleep or about standing up from a prone position? And is either term literal or metaphorical? The semantics is again inconclusive.
What we do have to resolve this is the testimony of John of Patmos in Revelation. John wrote in Revelation 6:9-10, “And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?” (John’s use of psuche for souls is puzzling. I think it is like referring to “all hands” aboard a ship. Or perhaps there is some retained imprint of the physical body on those in the Intermediate State.) This passage reflects people who were killed as being still alive and active rather than in a sleeping state.
Scout
Do you actually believe Jesus, the Creator and Son of God, was unconscious and helplessly out of commission -- powerless and practically out of the picture -- while his dead body was in the tomb?
If He wasn't, His sacrificial "death" was a sham and was insufficient to atone for our sins.
COG Catholic and Scout
The big dilemma in the many controversies concerning life, death, and the afterlife is no one can agree on Biblical definitions. Does life mean life? Does death mean death? Is death the opposite of life or is death actually life in another form?
Did Jesus die? Scripture affirms He did (1 Corinthians 15:3, Revelation 1:18), but what does that mean? He really wasn't dead but was alive? Is the resurrection from the dead actually a resurrection from life?
Are the wages of sin really death or life?
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished"(Rev.20:5). Does that mean what it says or something else?
Without any reasonable definition of terms, the words of Scripture mean nothing and we are left with only human reasoning and Babylonian confusion. I can see our atheist friends rejoicing, along with all the forces of darkness. Or, is darkness actually light?
Cog catholic,
That is the Armstrongist teaching. I now see that as absurd.
I am uncertain regarding soul sleep. I have no problem biblically that our soul can die and that God can stir it back to life. But, other verses lean otherwise.
It seems very strange to me that God would create physical man (perhaps eternal) and then after the Fall and Jesus’s Resurrection, reward Man with that same physical eternal life. That just doesn’t make sense to me. I do believe we will be spirit and not physical. That seems more consistent with being above the angels.
Not the homoousios of God, but maybe distant cousins.
I’ve not spent a lot of time on the topic as I’m good with God’s decision, but living in physical bodies doesn’t make sense to me.
If He was made alive (zóopoieó), He was dead - 1Peter 3:18. Would a spirit make live a live spirit?
There are so many theories, and each one leaves ample room for speculation.
Ah, what the H, let me just speculate a bit on the implications of this very plausible "intermediate" state. If God is its author, and let's face it, Scout's dissertation makes a great deal of sense, then He is not going to squander it! He's going to be mentoring His human resources, possibly allowing them to be a "Peanut Gallery" of Ghosts watching the living. As spirits, we will not be able to "break the fourth wall" on living humans, but could have an opportunity to watch them, and for God to provide commentary and training that actually could qualify us to rule cities! Didn't we all wonder how we would have the experience necessary to do this in the Millennium? Was God going to funnel a bunch of vicarious experiences into our brains at the First Rez to make this possible? No, This intermediate state makes much better sense! Orderly training, experienced over a protracted period of time. By the ruler of the universe!
To spirit beings with eternal life, the time-space continuum does not apply. It is completely irrelevant! To relate, God makes Himself conversant! He adapts Himself to something by which He is not governed as an eternal being, just so that He can relate to His human children. It's what He did when He lived in the Holy of Holies during the time of the First Temple! So, of course, the time spent as a spirit in the intermediate state would pass in the twinkle of an eye!
I've had Mormon friends over my lifetime. Mormons make very good friends and have a wide variety of interests. One friend shared with me some "insider information" about "the talk". This talk is not about survival when confronted by police because you are different! It's about God, giving you a review following death, explaining to you, credibly, for the first time, what everything is all about. It's about Him asking you to choose now that you know beyond shadow of a doubt, not because you heard a perverted version of it from a self-serving cult leader, but because you heard it from God Himself. I can see this dovetailing with life in an intermediate state, a state during which the secrets of the universe are revealed to you by the Most Credible.
Of course these are only my opinions. I'll leave it to others to judge whether they make greater sense than Armstrongism. Admittedly, it's difficult to compete with someone who told you he's an Apostle, and you believe him in spite of his false prophecies because he kept the sabbath.
BB
Anonymous 4:25 wrote, “If He wasn't (unconscious in death), His sacrificial "death" was a sham and was insufficient to atone for our sins.”
Some people have asserted that if Jesus did not die and stay dead for all eternity then he could not be a substitute for us. I believe that this is one of the issues with substitutional atonement. If the wages of sin is death and Jesus took on our sins, they say, then he must always stay dead.
The people who propose this overlook a very important fact. And that is they are not in charge of reality. God is. So, they cannot do quality assurance on a process that God created. Jesus forgave sins before he ever underwent crucifixion. The scribes were outraged. Forgiving sins is a Godly prerogative and here was a carpenter’s son forgiving people. So, Jesus performed a visible, tangible miracle so they would know he had the authority to forgive sins (Matthew 9:1-8). Some people, forgetting their humble human state, would say that Jesus cannot forgive the paralytic’s sins because Jesus had not died yet for atonement. Here Jesus goes completely outside the requirements of the Torah (Hebrews 9:22) which shows that he is greater than the Law of Moses (Hebrews 3:1-6). God calls the shots. Get over it.
Scout
Byker Bob 8:35 wrote, “Didn't we all wonder how we would have the experience necessary to do this in the Millennium? “
This is one of the pragmatic reasons why I favor the idea of the Intermediate State. Glad you mentioned it. There is a real government coming and it requires real people with real training. Our time on earth will provide some of this. But there is so much more to learn. Moses has been in the Intermediate State already for about 3,500 years. The Intermediate State, assuming time is anything close to what we have now on earth, affords us an opportunity to train up. If we were all just resurrected without any kind of orientation, what would we do? Just stand around? These questions are not fabulous. They are real world issues.
Scout
Byker Bob, Addendum
Can you imagine the practical issues caused without the decompression time of the Intermediate State. One moment you are a doddering old man sitting on the porch, you die, and in your next moment of consciousness, you are swept up high into the sky to meet the returning Jesus. Sheer terror. If you could die again, you would.
One moment after death, our next moment of consciousness, we will still pretty much be the same people. All we know is what we have seen in this weird world. We won't be fit to rule an outhouse.
Scout
Jesus indeed died, and death means death.
But we have to know what death means.
In this context, it's how a doctor defines it. It's when your heart stops, the bodily systems cease to function, and decomposition begins.
No doctor or coroner has a tool do do a soul check, to see what it is up to. Whether it's conscious or not, that doesn't change what medical death is.
By the way, just as death means death, remember that sleep means sleep, as well. People in the grave don't snore.
We have to keep definitions in mind.
Anonymous -- If Jesus was powerless and out of commission -- ever -- then he was never God to begin with.
Ed, I hear what you're saying, but our bodies will be resurrected (that's core to the Christian Faith, of course; anything else is not Christian), but our bodies will be glorified -- just like Jesus'! They won't be subject to sickness, pain, etc., or any limitations whatsoever. They will be subject only to our wills.
Scout 742
I believe you are being over dramatic in your human reasoning, but I fully support your right to ponder these wonderful expectations. Speculation is good, even though you have shot down those in the past who speculated concerning the saints exploring and ruling the cosmos.
I think you underestimate the experience and character one achieves in a normal life span through life's trials and tests, especially when the holy spirit is factored in. Isn't that why we are here? To learn, to grow, to experience?
The future: how hard can it be? Consider the parable of the pounds and talents, and the many statements made by Christ to the churches in Revelation chapters 2-3. God know us, who and what we are, our strengths and weaknesses and capabilities. What we lack can be bridged by His spirit. Remember what He said about Abraham:
"For I know him, that he will command his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgement . ." (Genesis 18:19).
In the Millennium I'm sure we will learn as we go, but we will also have the great advantage of sharing the mental and physical image of the Son, our Saviour.
You and Bob very easily could be right. It wouldn't bother me if you are. The only problem is, I don't see an intermediate state post graduate course hinted or mentioned anywhere in Scripture. Is one really needed?
You are letting your Roman theology cloud your understanding. Jesus was not God and man at the same time. He emptied himself and was simply human, just like you and me. He said that he could do nothing of himself, but only what the Father gave him. So, he was just as dead as you and I and every other human will be. The Father raised him from the dead, just as the Bible says.
CG Catholic
You act as if it is I who made this "sleep" analogy up. I didn't. It's in your Bible!!!!
Also, Scripture speaks of both "living" souls and "dead" souls, AND that the soul can be destroyed! Yes, definition is important.
God exists outside time. Time is physical- created or came into existence at the creation (or big bang).When a body dies, the part that is raised (changed) is spirit - outside time. So at death the resurrection occurs instantly from god’s point of view (tonight you will be with me …) and some time in the future from human viewpoint.
There are so many cliches, and so little time. HWA was a cliche master! One such example: "God does not want another Satan on His hands!" (rationale for the creation of man).
This implies that Satan's rebellion was a big shocker to God! I don't think so! Nobody fools God! I believe the creation of Satan was part of God's master plan from the very beginning. How many thousands of years did Lucifer exist as a light- bringing Arc Angel, walking with God before "falling"? How many years does an Armstrongite live a human life basking in the sunshine of HWA's restored truths??? Whose character do you think God knows better??? If HWA's statement that God calls people to Armstrongism because he does not want another Satan on his hands holds true, how many years does this proverbial Armstrongite plod along in human life, seeing things through the glass darkly, and how would that qualify him to rule cities with a rod of iron??? 75 years? 50 years? 25 years? The intermediate state provides an abundance of additional training, personally guided by God, as opposed to by someone who did well in Spokesmens Club as a member of the WCG! The intermediate state is also vastly more inclusive! HWA taught exclusivity for his followers. What if other educational experience is acceptable?
And the thing about it is, who are held up as the best, most knowledgable examples of those walking with God? The Armstrongite ministers! Hint: This site does exist! I believe there is a larger abundance of depth than we were led to believe!
BB
Anonymous 3:40
I know it is a biblical analogy. But it is an analogy; not everything about death compares to sleep.
Sleeping people snore, dream, move, wake up and fall back to sleep, get hot, get cold, get cramps, etc. -- all things that dead people can't do.
But the analogy is good because if you go to a funeral, the corpse is lying down. Often its hands are folded, eyes are closed. It doesn't have to get up to go to work in the morning. It has nothing to do tomorrow under the sun. It looks like it's sleeping, not doing anything, not stressing. That's why it's called "sleep."
Yes, there are living souls and dead souls, but again, context is important. What do we mean by "soul" when we use the word in a given time?
Sometimes we just mean a person, living or dead; but in other contexts we're talking about the spiritual component of a human being, distinct from the physical body.
HWA fans commit the logical fallacy of equivocation when on the one hand they say we are a soul (Genesis), but then think they're disproving the doctrine of the immortal soul by quoting Ezekiel 18 ("the soul that sins shall die"), and then doing who-knows-what with Jesus who says fear not men who can kill the body but not the soul (Matthew 10).
BP8 11:12 wrote, “I believe you are being over dramatic in your human reasoning…”
I always felt that Armstrongism lacked pragmatism. The whole ‘place of safety’ shtick had many logistical problems. HWA’s unfinished furniture idea would not carry water simply because the Cosmos is way too large for that idea and our tiny population of people. And the idea of being unconscious until the resurrection and being deployed in the Millennium without training did not seem like it could have much traction.
Of course, there are ways. Miracles can happen. Angels can provide support. I just have a feeling that this is all going to be mundane and effective rather than fantastical and chaotic. And the intermediate state will help make it be the former rather than the latter.
This is my opinion which is in addition to the scriptural evidence I presented.
Scout
Scout
I always value your opinion. I may not always agree with it, but you do make us think outside the box. As usual good post.
Anonymous 3:40 wrote, “So at death the resurrection occurs instantly from god’s point of view...”
You raise an interesting issue. What you are saying is that God and man have two different perspectives – God is timeless and man is bound by time. So, anything that might happen in the future is in God’s eternal now. Just as everything in the past is in God’s eternal now.
The question is, then, does God, when he speaks to man, use his timeless perspective or man’s time-bound perspective. I think it is the latter. Or things become way too confusing. Predictive prophecy is the principal place where God speaks from his timeless perspective and it is carefully couched as such.
When Jesus says to the thief that today you will be with me in paradise, I believe he speaking about the immediate future in regular English. There is nothing to indicate Jesus is in prophetic mode speaking about something that is going to happen in the Eschaton. If Jesus were to mix modes in this way, as you suggest, I believe the thief and all Christian readers of the Bible would have a right to be totally confused.
Scout
The COG Catholic wrote, “But we have to know what death means.”
I was speaking with a WCG minister in the late Nineties, and he made a statement that I thought was really curious. He had been studying in a graduate theology school. He said we don’t really know what death is. At the time that seemed to me to be a disastrous gap in understanding. The Bible talks about death so much. It is rife with death, both Old and New Testaments. And I thought I knew what death was, but when I thought about it, after speaking with the minister, I realized that I lacked a tight definition. My understanding of death was intuitive rather than technical.
So, here is an attempt to tighten the definition: Death is the physical collapse of the bodily processes such that life can no longer go on. And when this occurs, the pneuma is separated from the sarx and the psuche that operates with the sarx. And what this means for the human that dies is that the human loses their interface with the physical realm of the Cosmos. The existence has not been terminated but the human no longer has access to the Cosmos and, therefore, is not alive in the Cosmos. (And the restoration of an interface with the physical realm of the Cosmos is resurrection.)
This works for both the Intermediate State and Soul Sleep. But it does assume a bodily existence as the interface to the Cosmos. And it is not about consciousness or unconsciousness. It’s about losing the capability to be here. Our ultimate destiny, our salvific outcome is to be here eternally in the new heavens and new earth. It does not pertain to beings that are purely pneuma like angels. It pertains to composite beings like us.
Scout
BP8 10:06 said: I find a lot of "ifs", " ands", and "buts" here, but that's alright, it is a broad subject. Even the "mainstreams" have their differences. Rome has its version, Greek Orthodox theirs, and the Reformers were divided as well. I think this is apparent when talking to the average layman on the street.
Don’t forget even the Jews at the time of Christ were divided over the spirit world and what happens after death. The Sadducees, for instance, denied the resurrection, angels and spirits, while the Pharisees believed in them (Matt. 22:23, 29–32; Mark 12:18, 24–27; Luke 20:27, 34–38; Acts 23:6–8). So differing views on an intermediate state are hardly a modern and exclusively Christian phenomenon.
Do you have any thoughts on what are commonly called NDEs, Scout? I tend to think “PDEs” (Post-Death Experiences) may be a better term, since in many cases—if not all I don’t know—the person is considered clinically dead (brain death, cardiac arrest, etc.). From a medical perspective, it seems impossible for them to see, hear or know what was happening around them while attempts were being made to revive them.
I’ve also recently come across the term SDEs (Shared Death Experiences). I first heard it mentioned in an episode of The Why Files on YouTube about this subject. Interestingly, my father and two of my sister’s daughters experienced what I know now as an SDE around the time my eldest sister was dying and it’s always stayed in my mind.
I do appreciate your responses. I have learned from years of software
development that it is difficult for the developer to see his own errors. Its good that there is someone who sees the other perspective and who keeps me honest.
Scout
In WCG oral tradition, the Catholic term "purgatory" was used in their refutations of the doctrine of the intermediate state. Whenever Armstrongite ministers referred to anything or anyone as "Catholic", the brethren were programmed to interpret it as the kiss of death. To attribute something to the Catholics was to condemn the very concept as having come from the "wh0re of Babylon". Dismissed. Done with one shot.
From the Protestant side, I've heard the idea that at time of death, a Christian's character is frozen in time. They believe that that's the preserved state in which a Christian enters heaven.
Many believe that citing Wikipedia is dumbing down. However, by design, it remains a reference which is constantly reviewed, updated, and edited. Subject to confirmation via second and third resources, they frequently get things right. Here is a quotation regarding Purgatory from the Wikipedia article:
"Purgatory is a belief in Catholic theology. It is a passing intermediste state after physical death for purifying or purging a soul before entering Heaven. A common analogy is dross being removed from gold in a furnace. In Catholic doctrine, purgatory refers to the final cleansing of those who died in the State of Grace, and leaves in them only the holiness necessary to enter the joy of Heaven. It is entirely different from the punishment of the damned, and is not related to the forgiveness of sins for salvation."
There are different interpretations amongst the various Protestant and non-denominational faiths. I've even heard "hell" used as a metaphor for the continuing cleansing process which Catholic doctrine attributes to purgatory. Dr. Charles Stanley referred to hell as eternal separation from God. There are Jewish beliefs that the souls of the departed wander the earth for a year following death.
We can't possibly know if further options or choices are available to us following death, or if such decisions are confined to our physical lives. Humans have beliefs, and/or educated guesses regarding such things. There are very few things that we can know for a certainty. Too much white noise, often masking out reality! It is comforting to meditate upon an intermediate state, during which level of spiritual guidance is added or enhanced, truth is established for a certainty, and in which we can be freed from the negative effects of our frequently irrational human emotions, frenzied lives, and the powerfully magnetic soap operas which can modify and detour those lives.
There is so much more depth! It is not very satisfying to believe that if you are a good Armstrongite, in the Kingdom you get to teach and administrate Armstrongism. Or that when Jesus Christ returns, He will establish Armstrongism as "God's government on Earth" forever and ever. Surely, God has greater depth than that!
BB
NKJV Eccl 9:10
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going.
Scout, why do you keep leading people away from the truth with your foolish mentations? The more you speak, the more you contradict yourself. For example, in 7:27, you say that at death a human loses his interface with the cosmos, then you say that this ALSO applies to the intermediate state, after just droning on earlier about how the soul can live on and "learn" about itself after death, presumably in the world, before it is "resurrected" (or does it need a resurrection?) You even imply in the last paragraph that the soul assumes a bodily existence, which surprises me since you flip back and forth like a yo-yo between the literal and figurative. But this we agree on: that angels are pneuma. So you learned something at AC.
8:07, can you describe in short the SDE experience of your nieces? I believe that this is a way, namely through dreams and visions, that God communicates to a family about an impending death, not unlike when a member receives a special revelation, as John did. Right, NDE's can tell us a little about how the soul operates. They don't immediately "leave the vicinity" upon death in all cases and their experiences carry forward into the body when one is revived shortly thereafter.
What happens at death is a massive subject and there is much more to the mystery than has been discussed, but it will remain a mystery for as long as foolish people butcher the subject. 1 Pet 3:19 is one of those mysteries. If the Lord was made alive and souls are conscious after death, then what need is there for a resurrection, some might say? Remember that this false doctrine was floated around back then when Paul touched on it in 1 Cor 15:12. They probably thought if the dead saints rose at His resurrection and the Spirit of life was given to us, do we really die? (and did Christ really die on the cross? -- another false doctrine)
John 11 clearly shows that to be dead is to be unconscious and to be conscious depends on a soul.
But some of you are listening to the devil (like our WCGrs) who said to Eve, "Ohhh, you won't surely die (if you eat of the wrong doctrines)...." (Gen 3:4)
"His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." (Ps 146:4) (for as long as the soul has departed fully and isn't hovering close by ready to return in a moment as in a NDE)
God gave all created beings free will including Satan.
Hey, 1:21, I've got proof that there is an intermediate state, and that on special occasions, musicians can cross over. Google: Slash jimi hendrix tribute Hall of Fame UK 2005. The song is "Hey Joe", and Slash is backed by Mitch Mitchell, drummer from the Jimi Hendrix Experience; Billy Cox, bassist from Hendrix's Band of Gypsies;, and Stevie Winwood from Traffic on keyboards, personal friend of Jimi. Be sure to keep your Kleenex close by!
Anonymous 1:21 wrote, “For example, in 7:27, you say that at death a human loses his interface with the cosmos, then you say that this ALSO applies to the intermediate state, after just droning on earlier about how the soul can live on and "learn" about itself after death, presumably in the world, before it is "resurrected"
What I wrote is that the definition of death I have proposed can work in the context of Soul Sleep or the Intermediate State. To add more detail, I do not believe that the Intermediate State is on earth. For believers, the Intermediate State is the same as Paradise. Paul tells us that Paradise is in the Third Heaven. So, I believe that a person who dies and ascends to Paradise no longer has access via an appropriate body type to the Cosmic realm. But then we must ask, how did Moses and Elijah appear here bodily. I do not believe that their appearance here was the nominal condition for persons with intermediate corporeality. If God wants someone to appear on earth, they will no matter what their default condition is. This circumstance is neither an insurmountable problem nor a contradiction. There are many other implications of my definition of death. I have not addressed all of them. Some issues cannot be resolved.
Scout
Anonymous 9:41 cited: "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work or device or knowledge or wisdom in the grave where you are going."
The Old Testament, which you have cited, does not lean into the afterlife. It barely looks in that direction. I believe we must let the New Testament unpack the Old Testament. The Old Testament Judaic view was that all people, good or bad, went to Sheol which was not a place of unconsciousness but a place of darkness, bleakness, inactivity and separation from God. My guess that is not remotely how you see the afterlife. So why quote the OT?
Scout
"Anonymous -- If Jesus was powerless and out of commission -- ever -- then he was never God to begin with. "
Man! I never realized how messed up Roman Catholicism is!
Byker Bob 9:32 wrote, “In WCG oral tradition, the Catholic term "purgatory" was used in their refutations of the doctrine of the intermediate state.”
One of the arguments that Armstrongists are fond of using is “that doesn’t occur in the Bible.” This is often used for the Trinity. Yet, they believe in Soul Sleep and Soul Sleep does not occur in the Bible text anywhere. Soul sleep seems to have lurked around for a long time at the fringes of the early Christian church. But none of the Patristics advocated it. The origin of the term is attributed to John Calvin who opposed Soul Sleep. Then later it was revitalized by George Storrs of the Adventist Movement. It was not a “truth” discovered by HWA after 18 and a half centuries. It was passed down to him in the Millerite package.
I checked one of the HWA on-line archives for the term Intermediate State and found nothing but a reference made by Dean Blackwell to the fact that the Waldenses believed in the Intermediate State. So, explicit discussion of it seems to be absent from Armstrongist belief.
Though one can draw parallels between the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory and the Intermediate State, they are not really the same. Purgatory is a program for converted Christians who just didn’t make the grade when it came to purity. So, they serve some time in Purgatory as a preparation for entering Paradise. Something like that. I am not familiar with Catholicism. One of the differences between Purgatory and the Intermediate State is that the former happens to some people but the latter happens to everyone.
Another important difference is the idea that Purgatory is a state where people are purified. A kind of distillation of the spirit takes place among those who are already saved. Works do not enter this picture. Whereas, the Intermediate State for the righteous is regarded to be a place of rest and blessing for the already saved. The idea that I assert that the Intermediate State will be used for further training for the Elect so they might reign with Christ during the Millennium is objectionable to some Christians. They see that as a kind of “qualification” that chips away at the gracious life of the saved in the Intermediate State. I believe that is overwrought. I believe in Gregory of Nyssa’s concept of Epektasis. And I see continuous growth that leads to more and more happiness as a feature of this. So, I do not flinch at the idea of training and growth in the Intermediate State.
Scout
Cuz that's what I believe.....Sheol is a place of unconsciousness.
Scout 745 writes, " I do not flinch at the idea of training and growth in the intermediate state".
If we are going to fantasize about this, let's not overlook that there are two sides to this equation, good guys and bad guys. We all want the benefits afforded to Lazarus, the good guy in the parable that is the chief of all scriptures used to support the (IS), but what about the bad guy, the rich man? What is he doing while the saints a undergoing all this training, being tormented, suffering, even before final judgement has been pronounced?
Most accept this parable as absolute literal proof of the immortality of the soul, and that at death the righteous go to heaven while the wicked burn in hell. Of course there are obvious problems with that interpretation, one being, "hell" here is Hades which is not the judgement of the "hell" fire Jesus spoke of. Also, "judgement" itself does not take place at the time of one's death!
If we are going to accept the IS for all the good opportunities for the saints, we have to better explain how the same scenario unjustly deals with the wicked, for it appears they get "burned" twice, which is unscriptural.
You are also correct that "soul sleep" is not in the Bible, for it was a derogatory term given to discredit those who believed that "many of them who SLEEP in the dust of the earth shall awake . . .to everlasting life", Daniel 12:2. But by comparing this with 1 Corinthians 15:17-22, you'll seethe truth of the matter, being, everlasting life and being made alive in Christ results from being awaken from sleep by a resurrection ( the Bible's words, not mine.)
Anonymous 11:08 wrote, "Sheol is a place of unconsciousness."
"The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol:" Ezekiel 32:21.
Here we have a picture of mighty men in Sheol speaking to someone who has newly arrived. Clearly, they are conscious. I think what you believe about Sheol does not reflect the
Bible.
Scout
Metaphor....for example, age doesn't literally speak - Job 32:7.
Based on what we know of First Century Jewish faith, the resurrection of the dead was not a universally accepted concept. Ths Sadducees, a large Jewish sect, did not believe in it. I have wondered whether this is why Biblical descriptions of what happens after death seem conflicted and are left nebulous. It is another one of those things where people generally pick a side. Is not our discussion yet today an acknowledgment of this nebulousness?
There were numerous historic and external influences of which the Jewish people had to have been aware during the era of the Second Temple. The great philosophers had lived during the fifth and sixth centuries BCE, there was the age of Helenism, and Zoroastrianism certainly existed and was known. The New Testament was written in Greek! Iesous was the Greek translation of the Hebrew Yeshua. The Koran calls Jesus "Isa". The Roman Empire was THE place to be during the first century, and Jerusalem was one of a handful of "crown jewel" world class cities of the Roman Empire. It had to have been an intellectual hotbed, with many scintillating discussions. The Library of Alexandria in nearby Egypt still existed as a source of reference until 270-275 CE, though not at its peak.
BB
The Bible does make use of metaphor extensively. But I think in this case you need to demonstrate that it is metaphor. I can offer other scriptures that speak of consciousness in Sheol.
Scout
PART 1
1:21 said: “8:07, can you describe in short the SDE experience of your nieces? I believe that this is a way, namely through dreams and visions, that God communicates to a family about an impending death, not unlike when a member receives a special revelation, as John did. Right, NDE's can tell us a little about how the soul operates. They don't immediately "leave the vicinity" upon death in all cases and their experiences carry forward into the body when one is revived shortly thereafter.”
I lost my eldest sister about 9 years ago now. She was born blind and had severe CP, so she was wheelchair-bound her whole life, passing away at 49. Around the time of her death, while she was in palliative care, both my dad and twin nieces, separately, though IIRC in the same week of her death, heard the most indescribably beautiful music that made them emotional and teary, even though no one else around them could hear anything. I felt a bit disappointed that I didn't experience anything like that myself, but neither did my mom, other sister or oldest niece. I feel it was God’s way via her angel or her personally to communicate with us that He was taking her home. The reason I interpret it that way is coz for all my life growing up with her and my parents caring for her until they couldn’t in that final few months of her life we’d always have the radio on (or TV) for her to listen to some music so she wouldn’t think she was by herself—especially if we did have to leave her home alone briefly and go out. Not until I watched the Why Files video on SDEs did I learn that these experiences are more common and have a name for them like NDEs.
My own personal views re the intermediate state at present is probably agnostic ie Idk if we are conscious or unconscious after death, but I’m ok with that coz as Paul said that all experiences we endure in this world is “common to man” so I’ll know when I’m dead or when I’ve been resurrected—hopefully at the first resurrection (or if the second resurrection entails an opportunity for salvation for all the unsaved and I’m categorized as “unsaved” for whatever reason then I hope I’ll be raised then to be given such opportunity with everyone else to enter into life eternal)—and if my Savior (and everyone I’ve loved) experienced (or will experience) death then I know that I’ll be ok too like my mom would always, “You’re not the first, you’re not the last and you’re not alone.”
What I consider “evidence” in support of consciousness after death include the following:
1) Reneham’s story of a patient (who possibly had mental health issues) who seemed to identify as HWA and communicate that he was going to hell, which occurred around the time of HWA’s death.
2) Canadian pilot Jeffrey S’s NDE after a plane crash. He believed he had exited the aircraft and was wiping blood from his head with paper towels before noticing his own lifeless body still inside the cockpit before he blacked out. He described seeing “the most beautiful blue sky” he had ever seen and feeling completely safe and at peace. What especially intrigued rescuers was that they reportedly found 54 blood-soaked paper towels outside the aircraft, even though he had never physically exited it.
3) The Biblical account of Samuel’s spirit being called up by the medium of Endor for King Saul in which Samuel prophesies Saul and his sons deaths the next day (1 Sam 28).
4) Lazarus and the Rich man in which their intermediate reward or punishment is immediate upon death (Luke 16:19-31).
5) Christ’s promise to the thief on the cross that he’d be with Him in paradise that very day (Luke 23:42-43).
TBC
PART2
So personally, and from these pieces of “evidence,” I wonder either if when we die:
1) we experience a “foretaste” of our future eternal reward or punishment before we “black out” or “lights go out” and we go unconscious (“soul sleep”) and this is what NDEs are evidence of?
OR
2) we remain conscious post-death in an interim state until the first or second resurrection (whichever God judges us worthy for), but in either Sheol/Hades or “Abraham’s bosom”/Paradise (and like I mentioned for (1) experiencing a foretaste of our future eternal reward or punishment?
Also, I would probably agree with:
3:40 who said: “God exists outside time. Time is physical- created or came into existence at the creation (or big bang).When a body dies, the part that is raised (changed) is spirit - outside time. So at death the resurrection occurs instantly from god’s point of view (tonight you will be with me …) and some time in the future from human viewpoint.”
AND
Scout who said at 6:46: “What you are saying is that God and man have two different perspectives – God is timeless and man is bound by time. So, anything that might happen in the future is in God’s eternal now. Just as everything in the past is in God’s eternal now.”
And such talk re time and perspective always makes me think about 2 different ways of looking at time.
1) The first view I can’t remember how I came across it, but it’s what I think is called the “bird’s-eye view” so you’re like looking down on a street from above and seeing the beginning, middle and end of a procession all at once, while those within it can only experience one moment at a time.
2) The other is the “flattened circle” of time from S1 of True Detective
https://youtu.be/RKRksnjSxWI?si=RwH5Lg89jKcNcKw3
Which also makes me think of the line (from the Nic Cage flick “Next”): “It’s already happened…it just hasn’t happened yet,” which makes sense to me too.
BP8 2:32 wrote, “…but what about the bad guy…”
The events associated with the personal Eschaton of the individual are controversial. I have an opinion. I cannot conclusively exegete my view from scripture. But here goes. I believe that those who enter the compartment of Hades for the non-Elect will go there to be prepared for the Second Resurrection described in Revelation. (I am not an ardent fan of the Book of Revelation and I think citing it actually adds a measure of uncertainty to any exegesis.) The focus of the activity in that compartment is kolasis (Greek). Google AI, one of our greatest theologians, defines kolasis in this way.
“Kolasis (κόλασις) is a Greek noun meaning "punishment," "correction," or "chastisement". Primarily, it refers to corrective punishment designed to improve the offender, distinct from timoria (retributive vengeance). It is famously used in the New Testament (Matthew 25:46) to describe "eternal punishment," often linked to restorative discipline rather than merely vindictive torment.”
Kolasis comes from the idea of pruning a tree. There is some cutting but the outcome is beneficial. I do not think kolasis is the same for everyone. Some receive many stripes and some receive few but overall, it has a punitive aspect. This is where I believe the Rich Man was in the narrative. So, those who die as non-Elect live a conscious life in the Kolasis part of Hades, from the moment they die to the Second Resurrection. In the Second Resurrection, they will be given bodies that will permit them once again to interface with the Cosmos and live on earth where rehabilitation will continue in an earthly environment. The target of all this is for people to be full participants in the New Earth and the New Heavens.
This is very similar to what HWA believed but without the Soul Sleep. It is like the 100 Year Period. It also parallels Purgatory in a way. All of this is about the same idea: Some people live their lives on earth and by the end of life just are not ready for Paradise.
I use Elect and non-Elect categories based on Ephesians 1. People, usually the self-righteous, always arm-wave about non-believers getting a second chance. If you are non-Elect, you never had a first chance no matter how much religious exposure you had.
I believe Protestants miss the boat on this. They envision a judgment event and not a judgment process. And they believe almost all are condemned. I believe that is cultural rather than exegetical.
My two cents…
Scout
Anonymous 4:39
I went colloquial on my statement at 8:42. My term "demonstrate" is inapt. What I mean is that you need to exegete the view you have expressed from scripture. Just because you found a metaphor in Job does not automatically convert the passage in Ezekiel to metaphor.
Scout
Looking at some of these comments these thoughts of God's word came to mind, that the first shall be last and the last first.
Would God be a just and perfect God if Moses is currently accluminating 3,500 years bonus training over Mr Smith who died yesterday and Mr Jones who could die tommorrow.
There are zero examples of God in scripture making sure people he was working with were 100% ready emotionally. For God's ways are not our ways. Emphasis is being put on emotional acceptance but not on character acceptance. God looks for character, today's society favors emotions over character, for society is really godless and evil. God works with humans quite differently to how humans work with humans.
Bringing over beliefs from other denominations and, trying to mix it all in, doesn't really stick in the long run.
Anonymous 12:29
I believe we must look at the issues of the afterlife pragmatically. Paradise is a society. That society encompasses the arts and sciences. Paradise has a culture. We know this from being human beings and living here on earth. Paradise has traditions and customs. It has jobs and responsibilities. It is not about riding a cloud and playing a harp. It is not about just preaching to people. Plumbing has to work.
Moses received his training and has been busy with his role in that society ever since. He does not receive 3,500 years of training.
The Disciples trained with Christ for three years. Jesus even sent them out on field projects. Pragmatically, when skills and experience are required, good character alone doesn't cut it.
Scout
Do you really mean these words typed?
Then you really believe in the immortal soul.
Paradise a society? Arts and sciences? A society not that much different from what you have now then? Plumbing!! Is Moses doing the plumbing ha ha! Are Angels his project manager ? Are the hammers and nails of gold or sapphire? Dose God not create by his spoken word anymore ?
Is scripture to be followed or our own thoughts. Have thoughts and ideas become idols to ourselves, and therefore limited prisons. Are you certain ?
In scripture 'Paradise' represents the ultimate state of bliss, communion with God, restored perfection, the perfect after marriage life of Jesus and his bride. It's a promise of ultimate restoration.
The paradise of the presence of God dwelling with humanity completley eliminates pain, mourning and death.
It's mentioned 3 times in N.T Luke 23, 2 Cor 12 & Rev 2.
The Apostle Paul identifies in 2 Corinthians the heavenly realm as Paradise: "caught up to the 3rd heaven".
In O.T. the greek translation calls the garden of Eden paradise. Paradeisos. This word associates paradise with the original uncorrupted state of humanity, perfect harmony between God, creation and mankind.
Anonymous 2:11 wrote, “In scripture 'Paradise' represents the ultimate state of bliss, communion with God, restored perfection, the perfect after marriage life of Jesus and his bride. It's a promise of ultimate restoration.”
.
I believe those words are accurate but do not describe the practical activity of the afterlife. Will you sit on your butt in a state of bliss all day? Is Paradise an eternal LSD trip? Is that what the purpose of your life is? Do you think the perfect marriage life of Jesus and his bride leads to no activity, creativity, innovation?
Paradise refers to a park-like garden. It is not lost on me that Adam’s job was to tend that garden. I don’t believe that we are going to enter paradise and discover that nobody has ever written a book and nobody ever reads. I think we will find great libraries of the finest literature one can imagine written by everyone who is there. The medium may be different. The act of absorbing the contents may be different. But the concept will be the same.
I do believe that the pneuma is ever-living. Nothing is truly immortal because God can take it out anytime he wants. Only the three-personed God is immortal. Pneuma is conditionally immortal if God never terminates it. Pneuma does not naturally degrade and cease to live.
My reference to plumbing might have been too mundane. I was thinking more about the Millennium when physical humans will still be around. Ultimately, plumbing may go away as a concept. But I believe there will be other practical activities. God gave you hands for a reason.
Scout
Will there even be 'a day' in Paradise one wonders. No is the answer to your abrupt questions.
Some people like to concentrate on the practicalities of eternal life others look forward to the paradise of the glory of God. No more hate filled bullies in Paradise. What bliss!
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