Bob Thiel, The Unordained False Prophet Still Lying That He Was Ordained By Living Church of God

Bob Thiel is lashing out at the Living Church of God, yet again, for publicly telling potential recruits to his personality cult that he was not ordained by the Living Church of God and is not to be considered ordained with proper credentials.

This has always been a bitter pill for Thiel and has been a serious blow to his pretentious priggishness.  Vanity has always been the thorn-in-the-side of so many deluded self-appointed Church of God leaders. The pompous vainglorious attitudes of so many COG splinter leaders has initially brought in significant numbers of people to their personality cults, but as time goes by and members see the false veneer stripped away revealing the haughty and arrogant personalities of the leaders, the members start to drift away. The men become more deluded and narcissistic with each passing day.  More and more absurd demands and revelations for their followers are dished out as God-sent teachings.

All of these men, in order to establish themselves as God's one and the only man with the truth, will develop all kinds of myths and outright lies about their station in the church.  Almost all present day COG leaders have been ordained by "proper" succession through the ranks of the previous alliterations of the church.  All of them except one, Bob Thiel.

Bob Thiel was never ordained in the Living Church of God, never was given the title of ordination, never received an ordination certificate with an official seal of the LCG (or any other COG), was never officially asked to be a minister, and was never officially blessed to be a minister.  Regardless of that, he still is lying that he was.

07/10/17 a.m. Recently, I got an email from someone interested in the Continuing Church of God (CCOG) who was being discouraged from being part of CCOG by one or more ministers in LCG along with one in COGWA. Basically, these ministers inaccurately claimed that I was not ordained, hence wanted to warn this person should stay away from CCOG.

LCG and COGWA ministers are entirely right in encouraging members to stay as far away from Bob Thiel as possible.

Thiel goes on  to promote the myth that Gaylyn Bonjour specifically prayed over him with the deliberate intent of raising him to the office of Minister in the Body of Christ.  Gaylyn Bonjour has specifically DENIED he ever had any such intent, yet Thiel continues to lie this is how he was officially ordained.

The fact that I was anointed by an LCG minister, Gaylyn Bonjour, who prayed that God would grant me a 'double-portion' of His Spirit was apparently not relevant to them. Nor is the fact that the anointing minister told afterwards me that he knew what he seemed have done and that what he did could not be taken away. Since this anointing was a private matter (like King David, see 1 Samuel 16:1-9; see also Laying on of Hands)....

Thiel has always been embarrassed about this and it has been a public humiliation for him and has made him the object of some hilarious ridicule.  Thiel found a new way around this humiliating experience by having one of his African "converts" lay hands on him and "anoint" him with new and special gifts he had been previously lacking.  They anointed him believing Thiel was already ordained.  This so-called "anointing" was done by several church hopping men who have jumped ship from one Sabbatarian group to the next as money and positions provided them with more importance.  This is the common practice of a large part of the Sabbatarian related churches in Africa and has been well-documented by church and relief organizations.

...later I was ordained again in public (like David, see 2 Samuel 2:4; 5:3). On 02/09/17 by Evangelist Evans Ochieng (formerly of GCG) and Overseer Samuel Ofosu (formerly of CG7) both laid hands on my for my anointing. So, it is improper to claim that I have not been ordained.

Thiel still has never been ordained to the rank of deacon, elder, pastor, evangelist, chief overseer, or any other position.  He has self-appointed himself to those positions using deception, half-truths, and outright lies.

Thiel also claims he is the end time prophet of the Church of God.  Hundreds if not thousands of prophets have popped up in the Church of God that Herbert Armstrong founded over 80 years ago.

Thiel is still trying to give the impression to his gullible African followers that his prophet status came in a dream where his god told him he was a prophet.  Imagine how many prophets the world would have after someone eating some bad Chinese food like Thiel did.   Some unclean shrimp juice disturbed Bob's delicate tummy so much that he was having nightmares and voila!...he dreams he is a prophet!

One question all should ask is regarding me is, "How does God make known that one is a prophet?" 

It is not the way many seem to think. It is not based upon the decision of some minister nor a group of men. 

The BIBLE teaches:

6 Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream. (Numbers 12:6)

Sadly, most people will not believe that--but that is what God said.

The butt hurt of being publicly dismissed as a fool by Rod Meredith still messes with Thiel's mind.

But anyway, none of that matters because Thiel had TWO dreams!  TWO nightmares and voila!  He is a prophet!  Then a deluded LCG member elsewhere in the world ate some bad Chinese food and voila!  Bob's a prophet!  Just like that, Thiel has his prophethood status nailed, all thanks to some bad shrimp juice.

Bitter prophet Bob continues on with this serious jump-to-conclusions by claiming that two LCG ministers said he was such a prophetic man that he needed no anointing to be a prophet.  I can almost guarantee you that these two men never had any intention of declaring Bitter Bob a prophet when they said that to him. Just as Thiel has taken Gaylyn Bonjour's blessing and twisted it into something else, Thiel has taken these two men's comments and twisted it to mean something other than what they intended. However, Thiel was still disappointed and embarrassed that he had no legitimate ordination and Gaylyn Bonjour hits the scene!  The miracle of miracles!

The Bible also teaches:

28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? (1 Corinthians 12:28-30).

Now, does that mean that no anointing is needed? 

Well, a month or two before Gaylyn Bonjour anointed me, two LCG ministers told me that I did NOT need a special ordination or anointing to be a prophet. I stated that, in my case at least, I felt otherwise. Then I prayed something would happen to clarify this in December 2011, and something did. The unexpected prayer for a 'double-portion' of God's Spirit by LCG minister Gaylyn Bonjour. God answered that prayer.

Thiel ends his spiel with using Herbert Armstrong's bitter rant that church members and others claimed he was a false prophet. Since it has been well documented that Herbert Armstrong uttered HUNDREDS of failed prophecies, he has been proven to be a false prophet.  Remember, it only takes ONE failed prophecy and scripture warns believers to stay away from the person/

Bitter Thiel is on a slippery slope if he needs to use HWA as a tool of legitimization.  Two lying fools do not create a truthful prophet of God.

Now also consider something that Herbert Armstrong wrote:

PERSECUTORS HAVE CALLED me a "false prophet." Now how would you KNOW whether the accusation IS true- or false? ... Actually, it probably is not very important to you to know whether my persecutors are right or wrong, when they call me dirty names, hurl epithets, resort to innuendo, impute sinister motives, strive to discredit, attempt character assassination. What is important to YOU is whether what you read in The PLAIN TRUTH really is the truth - whether what you hear over The WORLD TOMORROW broadcast is true- not whether I, as an individual, am true or false.  

I think our readers know by now that we always say: "DON'T believe what we say because you believe in us." We say "Listen with open mind, without prejudice, then CHECK UP in your own Bible-prove whether it is true, and BELIEVE what you find proved!" I don't seek to induce people to believe in ME-I seek to lead them to believe in JESUS CHRIST! (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2) 

You may search the Bible from beginning to end. You'll find the true prophets, apostles, ministers of God put first emphasis on the right CAUSE, not the effect. They proclaim THE WAY that leads to peace, happiness, security, and finally, eternal life. In Bible language, this means that God's Word, and God's true prophets and ministers put first emphasis on God's LAW...God sends HIS prophets and ministers to proclaim the RIGHT WAY, to show people that they are going the WRONG WAY, to cause them to turn around and get back on the RIGHT WAY through Jesus Christ by God's free grace... 

God's true servants are not OF this world nor of its ways. (Armstrong HW. Personal from the Editor. Plain Truth, May 1966, pp. 2, 44-45)

The Journal of the Churches of God Issue 196

Issue 196 of The Journal is out. 

Read it here.

NOTE:  When you click on the link above you will see a full color picture of Dave Havir III and the girls he is surrounded by.

To subscribe to the print version, please follow this link: www.thejournal.org/payment.html Also, we provide FREE print subscriptions to anyone who writes us to inform us he cannot afford a paid subscription. Here are The Journal’s postal and E-mail addresses: The JournalPO Box 1020Big Sandy, TX 75755USA info@thejournal.org

Probably a Sure Word of Prophecy

After a long explanation as to why the August 21st total eclipse from the Carolinas to Oregon is not a sign of the end of the world and the foolishness of those who preach it should be evident, Dr Bob correctly concludes, save for his church only having the "sure word of prophecy"...

"While the end is coming, the solar eclipse of 2017, like the ‘blood moons’ of 2014 and 2015, is NOT a sign that Jesus gave in Matthew 24 nor as shown in the Book of Revelation. Mark Biltz once again is pointing to his interpretations and attempting to say they mean some particular message from God. Although the USA does need national repentance, God is not sending a total eclipse as a means to do that. God has allowed many eclipses and they of themselves are NOT listed in the BIBLE as being of prophetic importance.

A solar eclipse is not a sign of the beginning of the great tribulation (see the 6th chapter of Revelation). A solar eclipse occurs when the Moon passes between Earth and the Sun, thereby totally or partly obscuring the image of the Sun for a viewer on Earth. Casting a shadow does not end the world.

(Posters Note: Neither does the blowing of wind, pounding of rain, fire, snow,heat or cold)

Why report about this? Because there are many false and heretical leaders that lead people astray on prophecy (2 Peter 2:1-2). Scoffers will not believe, but properly understood biblical prophecy will come to pass (2 Peter 3:1-12).

Sometimes false teachers mention the Bible to try to act like God sanctions their nonsense. And it is not just the secular fringe people, but also those who claim to be Christian or even claim to be in the Church of God.

Yet, those of us in the Continuing Church of God “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed” (2 Peter 1:19, KJV).  (Poster's Note: Bob means "I have")

Why?

Because we believe the Bible over signs that many point to.

You should too."

God trying to get Portland's attention but missed.

...Why can't he also conclude that volcanoes, weather and earthquakes are just volcanoes, weather and earthquakes without falling into the Bronze and Iron Age explanations of that which no one, at that time, understood and attributed to the gods, punishment and retribution?

and too...

"Is Bible Prophecy About Earthquakes Being Fulfilled?

"Is Bible prophecy being fulfilled?

Well there certainly have been great earthquakes in various (diverse, KJV) places.

The reality is that in the past 67 years there have been substantially more "great" earthquakes than the prior 67 years.

In the past year or so, there were substantially more major earthquakes than the prior year or so.

An increase in seismic activity is consistent with biblical prophecy.

Early Christians (and the more faithful of the modern ones) believed and taught that God gave humans 6000 years to live outside the Kingdom of God, followed by the Day of the Lord, and then the return of Jesus Christ, who would reign with His saints for a thousand years. According to various chronologies that I have viewed (see Does God Have a 6,000 Year Plan? What Year Does the 6,000 Years End?), the six thousand years is about up.

(Poster's Note:  Gotta love those "more faithful modern ones".  According to to various chronologies Bob, that I have viewed, modern humans have been on the planet for about 200,000 years and  there were plenty of cultures up and running that never noticed Noah's Flood. )

So, this suggests that the recent earthquakes probably are in fulfillment of Jesus' prophecies and that we are within only a few years of the start of the Great Tribulation and that Jesus may return by the end of the next decade (When Can the Great Tribulation Begin).

(Poster's Note:  Now there's a sure word of prophecy for you. Or probably one anyway.)

...The Bible teaches that God controls the weather (Psalm 147:17-18; 148:7-8"

                      http://www.cogwriter.com/earthquakes-today.php

Sadly and of course to quote Bob, the reason some weather and astronomical events don't qualify as "God trying to get our attention" is that they don't fit with his own mistaken notions about when he thinks Jesus is going to return.

Since, to Bob, this or that "can't happen" until this or that happens, he will continue in his delusional, superstitious, scientifically God-Haunted and fake ministry leading folk ultimately the proverbial path of "nothing to see here folks."

Restored Church of God Vignettes

The Holy Board of RCG seeks to speak with Apostle Pack of his prophetic failures.

Apostle Pack screens the Prodigal Ministry

RCG Members can't wait for the whistle

NEVER question Apostolic Authority...EVER

In the end, RCG members have only one option left when nothing works out well...

Why Being The Scapegoat of Narcissistic Parents Makes The Person More Powerful

The Church of God has a history of narcissistic ministers and members filling its ranks.  On several closed and hidden Facebook pages where exCOG members share their stories, it is appalling to hear how some were treated by narcissistic parents.  What makes this even more troubling is that this is happening by parents who are part of a church that claims to have be practicing first-century truth and love.

The thing about being a child of narcissistic parents is that it usually makes you the powerful one and that infuriates the narcissist.  Just look at how Dave Pack, James Malm, Bob Thiel, Ron Weinland and other over react when they are questioned.  Their narcissistic power erupts.

The Strength of the Scapegoat in the Narcissist Family

In the narcissist family, as a means of survival everyone rotates around the narcissist, who is usually Mom or Dad. Sometimes both parents are narcissistic. In my family, my father was the overt Narcissist Personality Disorder (NPD) type, and my mother enabled his abuse while also having her own covert narcissistic traits mixed with a higher order of being that sometimes allowed her to give affection, attention, and generosity. When it served my father’s needs, as is typical of NPDs, he bestowed approval, even idealized exaltation, to his “golden child,” my brother.

If you are familiar with the narcissist family cast of characters, you know that there is nearly always a “scapegoat,” and in my family that was me—the narcissist’s go-to projection screen for his abusive behavior and his trash receptacle for blame and rage.

Given that my father viciously mocked and terrorized me, my mother, and eventually my stepmother and stepsisters, I knew our family was unhealthy, but it took a long time for me to find the psychological profile that reflected our particular pathology. It took even longer for me to admit to what sadly clichéd extent we all fit the narcissist family mold.

The Biblical Scapegoat

The Old Testament‘s Leviticus 16 told of sacrificial “scapegoats” [see Ed Stetzer]. One goat was mortally sacrificed, while another was cast into the wilderness to carry away the “sins of man,” both to release humanity of its guilt, which is the biblical ceremony for Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonement). William Tyndale is believed to have coined the term “escape goat” in his 1530 English translation of The Bible, from the Hebrew version.

The Scapegoat’s Strengths

The scapegoat feels the acute injustice of his/her role. It is painful, confusing, maddening, and it frequently carries with it emotional and physiological damage that lasts a lifetime. But family scapegoats also have both innate and learned power. They are not chosen at random. Rather, they are typically targeted because of their strengths.

The narcissist well knows who in his sphere is most manipulable and who is most independent-minded, and he targets his greatest threat with projection and punishment. The scapegoat is the one most likely to care about and fight for justice within the inherently unfair narcissist family system, defending herself and others often in direct opposition to the narcissist.

Scapegoat Traits1. Strong-willed
2. Empathic
3. Justice-seeking
4. Internalizes blame
5. Emotionally reactive
6. Highly sensitive
7. Protective of others
8. Questions authority
9. Care-taking
10. “Different” in some way

Redemption for the Narcissist Family ScapegoatChildren of narcissists are trained to toe the family line at all costs. Challenging the family system is considered a sacrilege, and it calls for a courageous movement away from home into the “wilderness” of the world.
Although the strengths of the narcissist family scapegoat make her a target, they are also her salvation. Her ability to see and question along with her desire for justice enable her to escape the family tyranny while others cannot. And her capacity for empathy, so unlike that of the grandiose and compassionless narcissist, gives her the ability to form healthy and fulfilling relationships beyond her family of origin.
The (e)scapegoat’s redemption is breaking free.

Julie L. Hall is the author of the forthcoming memoir, Carry You, about life, and a few near deaths, in a narcissist family. Read excerpts. 

Dave Pack: I Gave Everyone A Second Chance And They STILL Refuse To Follow Me!

Dave Pack still cannot get over the fact that tens of thousands of Church of God members refused to follow him into the Restored Church of God.  He is still butthurt over that.  Dave claims that all the COG members were given a second chance, once he started his own group, to reside where the truth is.  Instead,  they chose to stay under the sway of the self-appointed conniving snakes that have started all of the splinter groups.  Dave is starting to sound like Bob Thiel, constantly butthurt over something.

If all the ministers with the Holy Spirit had said the flock is going to get slaughtered, banded together and confronted a lot of the newbies that were evangelists that they knew weren’t converted, that didn’t have the weight and stature of the giants of the past—those guys would have folded their tent and blown into the wind like leaves in October. They would have been gone and the Church would have been saved. Now, it isn’t what God wanted, but a lot of people said, “Why didn’t they stand up?” and the answer is—they were never going to spare the flock. They had grown too weak, even though they were converted; but they could have confronted.

Now…let’s fast-forward. Because men began to leave in different times and over different issues, were fired at different times…Different groups formed, nature abhors a vacuum. Wham! Opportunists stood up, and they would grab thousands of people, pull them to themselves and there’d be a whole bunch of groups instead of one.

They were given a second chance—outside the Worldwide Church of God—to unify, and where there’s about 50,000 people in the splinters, they chose to stay under ministers…I’m talking about the ministers for a moment…under ministers who were divided, who would not give up power; who had their own doctrinal ideas, their own administrative style; believed God had chosen them and created their own narratives for why “we’re right and everybody else is wrong.” That’s what happened. And so, they wouldn’t give up power, and the brethren wanted to be together.

Dave Pack: I Was So Powerful That Tkach Sr. Cowered At My Presence

The old windbag of Wadsworth continues to dream up craziness.  Despite the fact Dave is the most powerful Church of God leader in human history, he was impotent when it came to changing the hearts of many COG ministers because the evil cabal of Wizards were hard at work thwarting his every move.  Also, the idea Tkach Sr. "cowered" at Dave's presence is laughable.

A great frustration I was finding…About 25 years ago, I began to work a little louder and a little longer, while I was still in the Worldwide Church of God, and I talked to the senior evangelists. I knew them, just because some of them were in my family. I was on a first name basis with a lot of them, even though I was, you know, I was 40 what…43 years old, I guess, at the time. And I tried to wake them up. I found that they knew there were problems; some more than others. And I made sure to call people that I knew were not on board all the junk that was coming out, and I could not get them to galvanize and take a stand.

Now, it wasn’t God’s purpose, I understand that…Prophecy would have been broken…but I’m trying to illustrate a point to you and it’s powerful. Had they all come together…Had all of the ministers of God around the world, who had the Holy Spirit, come together as a group and confronted Mr. Tkach, they would have cowed him in five minutes. I knew the man.

There were a couple of times on the phone…I’m not trying to brag…I mean, he came at me and I cowed him, and I learned over time, as long as he, Mr. Armstrong, was still alive, that man would not touch me. There were times he would say things to me and I would say, “That’s not true,” or he’d threaten me, and I…I had a couple of moments…it was tense.

Dave Pack: Opportunistic Men Have Led Thousands of COG Members Off Into Splinter Groups.

Dave Pack says the Wizards running the splinter groups are opportunistic men who have led the people astray.  For once Dave Pack has gotten something right!  From Thiel, to Malm, to Kubik, to Flurry, to Weston, the list goes on and on naming the opportunistic men who have self-appointed themselves as the "spiritual leaders" of hundreds of splinter groups.  Of course, the one man missing from the equation is Dave Pack himself.  No other man in the history of human civilization has been used by God more than Dave has.

If all the ministers with the Holy Spirit had said the flock is going to get slaughtered, banded together and confronted a lot of the newbies that were evangelists that they knew weren’t converted, that didn’t have the weight and stature of the giants of the past—those guys would have folded their tent and blown into the wind like leaves in October. They would have been gone and the Church would have been saved. Now, it isn’t what God wanted, but a lot of people said, “Why didn’t they stand up?” and the answer is—they were never going to spare the flock. They had grown too weak, even though they were converted; but they could have confronted.

Now…let’s fast-forward. Because men began to leave in different times and over different issues, were fired at different times…Different groups formed, nature abhors a vacuum. Wham! Opportunists stood up, and they would grab thousands of people, pull them to themselves and there’d be a whole bunch of groups instead of one.

They were given a second chance—outside the Worldwide Church of God—to unify, and where there’s about 50,000 people in the splinters, they chose to stay under ministers…I’m talking about the ministers for a moment…under ministers who were divided, who would not give up power; who had their own doctrinal ideas, their own administrative style; believed God had chosen them and created their own narratives for why “we’re right and everybody else is wrong.” That’s what happened. And so, they wouldn’t give up power, and the brethren wanted to be together.

Satanic Cabal of Wizards Has Been So Powerful In The COG That No One Wants To Join Dave Pack's Church!

This is sure to tick off James Malm and Bob Thiel when they read below how Dave Pack claims they are as satanic as the Pope and are of the synagogue of Satan, that is active in the COG movement today.  Of course, Pack also believes the Living Church of God, United Church of God, Church of God a Worldwide Association, Philadelphia Church of God and all the rest of the COG's are harboring the Synagogue of Satan in their midst.

It’s God saying…Think of it this way…“I will expose them.” There is a group—in the splinters—who are as satanic as the Pope, if you will, but they lie about their identity. They’re the ones that are going to explode for who they are when the Man of Sin arrives, and begin to do miracles and prophesying and casting out demons in Christ’s name and He never knew them. You should ask, where did those people come from? Those people are used—through the power of the devil—to do those things. They probably don’t even fully know their own true identity. But they say they’re Christians, a spiritual Jew. Mr. Armstrong always understood Romans 2:28 and 9.

The ministers of the various COG's are playing right into Satan's hands:

So there are those ministers…I’ve worked with them. I know them. I know some of them aren’t converted. God has not yet exposed them. One of the great purposes of the Man of Sin, and there are many, is to expose them. “I’m going to bring them forth,” and brethren, you and I do not know who they are yet. Every man who dies in the faith gets eliminated, or just dies and he wasn’t in the faith. They have to be people who are alive, who are brought forth—the ones who run around in Christ’s Name saying “I am, I am” Luke 21:8.

So “make” means “bring forth”—God exposes them for who they are, ending their lying cover up. Now, they’ve been plaguing God’s Church for decades. These are the evil…or ungodly men…We’ll quote Jude…who crept in unawares—who were appointed to this ungodliness—who were born to be taken and withered. But nobody knows, until the moment of separation occurs, who they are.

Dave is right that the church is filled with evil and ungodly men.  From those that bastardize the law by making it a burden on members to lying false prophets who self-appoint themselves as leaders and ministers. The debris field of the COG is littered with these ungodly men.

So this is God promising, “I’m going to expose them,” and then it ends with, they’re going to worship before your feet…apparently, right away. I’m going to show you that. Day 1 of the Kingdom, they’re looking at…they’re looking at your big toe. They’re going to come right to your feet and worship you, right that day, and I’m going to show you more about that. So if these people are going to come and worship you, Day 1 of the Kingdom, you ought to have some idea of who they are…not their names yet.

It is going to be a humiliating day when Malm and Thiel are forced to kneel at Dave's feet.  What a pretty sight that will be!

This cabal of Satanic ministers are so evil they have prevented COG members from joining Dave's church!  These men are so strong in their evilness that they have overridden the actions of the Holy Spirit.  Why is the COG filled with so many impotent gods and ministers?

I knew, years ago, that the synagogue of Satan…As God…Eighteen years ago, I began to…I was fired, 24 years ago on Thursday, from the Worldwide Church of God, so I’ve been doing this a while and I was battling before that. And I knew there were men who were not converted. I didn’t understand God’s full purpose. But then years ago, you’ll recall my sermon, I knew there was a synagogue of Satan in the splinters. They had enormous power and ability to keep people from coming to where they should have been, and they were strong enough to overcome the efforts of the ministers who had the Holy Spirit and keep them there.

These Dark Overlords of evil have been so powerful that they have kept COG members from joining the one true church (Dave's church.)

EXCLUSIVE: Upheaval In Church of God Big Sandy and CEM (Christian Educational Ministries)

NOTE:  James Malm, after reading the story below, decided to take the story and spin it in his own usual malevolent way, by making the family the guilty party instead of Havir III.  This is the ongoing narrative that the COG has continued to use for 80 some years as it continues to make excuses or do anything about hundreds and hundreds of pedophiles (not the issue in this case), sexual abusers, stalkers and rapists that have been loose in the church and have been left to roam freely unencumbered.


The following was received from highly reliable confidential sources regarding an explosive situation that is brewing in the Church of God Big Sandy (Dave Havir) and with Christian Education Ministries (Allie Dart.)  COGBS members are deeply concerned over recent events that have rocked the church.

The following is a brief summary from a person (not a member of any COG) who attended the hearing at the Wood County Texas Courthouse on July 6, 2017 concerning David Havir III and his alleged improper relationship with a minor child.   David Havir III is son of Church of God Big Sandy pastor, Dave Havir.

Current board members for Church of God Big Sandy are:

David Havir III (Church Treasurer)

Reg Killingly

Carole Bald

Ronald Avey

Neal McIver

Melody Eishon

Clay Forestiere

A few days before the hearing, David Havir III had been fired as vice president of operations at Ron Dart’s (now deceased) religious organization, Christian Educational Ministries, in Whitehouse Texas.  The current board members of CEM are:

Allie Dart

John Garnant (elder for United Church of God, an International   Association)

John Beasley

Rod Martin

Willie Oxidyne

The week before the hearing, David Havir III was at church youth camp at Timberline Baptist Camp in Lindale Texas.  The camp was sponsored by Church of God Big Sandy. 

In attendance at the hearing were David Havir III, Neal McIver, the minor girl, the girl’s mother (Mrs. Rex), the girl’s father (Mr. Moody), and the minor girl’s 19 year old sister (Karina Moody).  (The minor girl’s parents are divorced.)  There was also a prosecutor representing Wood County, a lawyer representing David Havir III, and a lawyer representing Mr. Moody.

1.    The complaint had been filed by the minor daughter’s mother, Mrs. Rex.  (Case number 2017-357.)

2.    Prosecutor was Jim Wheeler.

3.    The judge was Jeff Fletcher.

4.    At the beginning of the hearing, Mr. Moody stated he was there to support his minor daughter.

5.    The first witness was Mrs. Rex who stated that she was the mother and a member of the Church of God of Big Sandy.  She accused David Havir III of inappropriate conduct with her daughter.  The mother said she saw about 12,000 phone texts that had been sent to the daughter by David Havir III.  The daughter responded with about 9,000 texts back to David Havir III.  Mrs. Rex said that the minor daughter’s personality started changing on March 16, 2017 when Karina and Mrs. Rex were going to go prom dress shopping.  The minor daughter refused to go and wanted to stay with David Havir III.  Mrs. Rex told her that she would not be staying with him and would not be meeting with him.  The minor daughter threw a fit and became very defiant.

6.    There were also photos sent by the minor daughter to David Havir III and the photos were shown to the judge and to Mrs. Rex only.  The prosecutor implied that the pictures were nudes.  

7.    There were also pictures taken of the minor daughter looking out a glass door with Karina and sent to David Havir III from Karina’s and the minor daughter’s phones during their vacation.

8.    The mother also saw the minor daughter and David Havir III ‘snuggling’ on the couch with his arm around the minor daughter.  So Mrs. Rex’s assumption was that, if they snuggled in front of her, then they did it when no one was there.

9.    There was a cybernet app on the phone that the mother tried to use to restrict phone use.

10.Next witness was the minor daughter’s sister, Karina.   Karina said that David Havir III and the minor daughter did ‘snuggle’ on the couch when they were around her.  She said that David Havir III was a father figure to her sister and that he was only trying to help her.  

11.The judge’s ruling was that the relationship with the minor daughter was “definitely inappropriate.”  However, he was not ordering a restraining order at this time, but he “highly recommended” to David Havir III that he needed to change his behavior toward the minor daughter.

Bronze Age Parenting and We'll Keep the Flames of Molech on for Ya!

One thing is for sure...the Bible is not child-friendly. Actually, if you really know the book, Old and New, you will have to admit that small children must not have been much a part of the culture. The first humans were the first parents, Adam and Eve, not the first children so I imagine they have no good childhood memories. Well, actually they have none since they never were children. Their kids, Cain and Abel come on the scene pretty much full grown. No pleasant times frolicking in the Garden of Eden.

They actually show up just in time to have Cain murder his brother and get himself booted out of the Garden by God afraid of those who don't exist killing him, go figure. Seth comes along, pretty much fully grown too. We certainly get no hint that this family every had picnics, hugs or good memories of being glad they had each other. The grown kids marry, who knows who, must be sisters that weren't worth mentioning who also only show up as full-grown women having babies by brothers. Ewwwwwww, but that's the alternative since they had no girls or boys next door to get their attention. There was no next door. Incest was a necessary thing, so say literalists, until they got enough humans on the planet to marry mere cousins and then people you eventually figured you weren't related to, but were.

The main heroes of the Old Testament were adults, who in some cases were given remarkable birth and childhood mythologies to show how great an adult they really were. Often stories from previous or surrounding cultures were borrowed for the baby to show what an amazing adult he was. In the Bible, Old barren women give birth to amazing humans and in the NT, young virgins give birth to gods.

 No hospital ever gave birth to a famous child.  Abe Lincoln was never really a kid until he was a famous adult. Then we find he was so darn honest as a kid, studied by the light of one lone candle by night but did succeed in not being born of a virgin as we might not have taken that all that seriously. You never heard that the child called George Washington, "could not tell a lie," until he was famous. No one waits at the hospital for famous baby to be born. The stories of remarkable children always come when the adult becomes remarkable. After all, remarkable adults must have had remarkable childhoods. This is how Moses, David and Jesus are portrayed, but any idea that we are seeing the lives of real children is illusionary. Amazing adults are pretty ordinary kids I would imagine, unless you are Bible Times adults.

We read about grown armies killing "men, women, and children," but that's just a sanitation problem and incidental to the great exploits of Israel obeying the Loving Heavenly Father. Sometimes the children get murdered in the womb or special attention is paid to the fact that their heads were smashed against the wall. Nice touch there. Sometimes they get sacrificed as in the case or near case of Abraham and Isaac. Great story of childhood ala Bible times. Even though it worked out ok, according to the script, I imagine Isaac was no longer interested in following Dad into the hills for weekend campouts. He prolly wondered what nonsense Dad was into now and passed choosing rather to hid under the table until Dad fell asleep

Here are some of the Bible's greatest childhood hits...

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod [sceptre], he shall not die.

-- Proverbs 23:13 (AV)

This is really good to know. Beating them was fine and dandy and it doesn't say spank. It says beat with a rod! Hit with a stick. Bash with a hoe. Smash with a sceptre. The reason is because "it won't kill them." Whew...good news there.

Execute stubborn kids

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son ... Then shall his father and his mother ... bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

-- Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (AV)

Whoa! Excellent! No attempt to encourage or find out why this might be occurring in the child's life. Prolly is the parents beating him all the time with rods, knowing full well he won't die. He might be mentally ill, but we can attribute that to demons and not take any personal responsibility. The Bible is not big on understanding how one way of being leads to other ways of being or how abuse leads to mental illness. It's all about Dad. It's all about the parents. It's really never about the kids.

Kids killed for mocking hero

Some small boys came out of the city and jeered at [the prophet Elisha], saying, "Go up, you baldhead! Go up, you baldhead!" And ... he cursed them in the name of the Lord. And two she-bears came out of the woods and tore forty-two of the boys.

-- II Kings 2:23-24 (RSV)

Well, that should teach them. Of course, the kids were making fun of Elisha's boss who was taken up in a fiery chariot and thought Elisha should give it a try. I sense they were skeptical the first rapture happened. At least, they seem not to have been convinced so as not to make fun of the man who took over after the boss left rather abruptly.

God orders child sacrifice

God did tempt Abraham, ... And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest ... and offer him there for a burnt offering...

-- Genesis 22:1-2 (AV)

Oh I know, God didn't really mean it. He was just joshin Abe, but in those days, God's didn't Josh. If you asked God if he loved children, like WC Fields, He would have said, "If they are properly cooked." Kids just had no value and certainly no say in the fantasies of their adult parents.

Daughter: a burnt offering

Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return ... will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering." ... and the Lord gave them into his hands.... When Jephthah returned to his home..., who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! And he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.

-- Judges 11:30-32, 34, 39 (NIV)

So in comes his sweetie, Biblical Ipod blaring and pow! "Sorry Sarah, I had a chat with God and told him if I got to win as a Bible man needs to win...well...just follow me. I'll explain it on the way." Of course, Mom just said, "Sarah, do as your father says. Love ya!" Later that night as Jephthah and Mrs. J held each other gently in bed, the both thought back on how the Lord had blessed them even though it had been a difficult day.

I have always been inspired and informed by these two examples of what it was like being a young Bible Times girl.

Woman must marry rapist

If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

-- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)

A marriage literally made in heaven! "Ok, I raped you. You want to kill me. You must marry me...me who raped you and we are stuck forever or they will cut both our heads off. Kiss me and act like you mean it."

Virgin women are war booty

"Have you allowed all the women to live?" he [Moses] asked them.... "Now ... kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."

-- Numbers 31:1-18 (NIV)

"So you like women do you....caught you, caught you! Ok, check out these sweet things _________. If it is not intact, kill the _________. If she is pure and new...keep her for your pleasure and enjoy boys. "I, the Lord, through my Servant Moses, the most meek man on the planet, decree it." Uh huh.

Lets see...New Testament kids that got into the story...

There would be demon possessed ones that Jesus heals. There would be kids that were dead that Jesus and few of the skilled Apostles resurrected, and of course Jesus himself, who had an amazing birth because he was an amazing adult. We have some great stories of Jesus killing some of his playmates for mocking him, but those books didn't make the cut. Oh yes, we have the infants slaughtered by Herod as Mary and family slipped out of town smirking "I know something you don't know," at her neighbors with small children. I know some adults were called "children of the Devil," so that counts I suppose and false churches were called whores but those would be older kids.

No, kids don't make out so good in the Bible. They are used, abused, disowned, fried, burnt, slapped, kicked, hit, beat, sacrificed, speared, sold, eaten, ignored, marginalized and mauled. The famous ones that make it to adulthood get delivered, Angelic choirs, Kingdoms, and babes galore. They get visited by Wise Men, who survived their own childhoods intact but left home as soon as they could, which is why there were called Wise Men. Bible Times were something no kid in his right mind would ever wish to return to. I'm sorry that babies were born in cultures where Bible Times parents were so ignorant of what to do next they just asked the Priests.

There are some kids in this world today who sadly do live in Bible Times. Their parents read the Bible and faithfully follow it's loving guidelines for childrearing and interpersonal family communications. These kids learn that all they need is "the rod of correction," or be told, "because we said so that's why." The often hear, "God is not going to be happy with you," or "you might go to hell for that Johnny." Every week they get to hear the Minister remind parent and child that they must bring up that kid in the way he "should" go, should being relative to whatever the Preacher thinks they should be, so that "when they are old, they will not depart from. it." Of course most depart long before they are old just to recover and get their minds back intact. There are American Bible Times Talibanic parents who are soaked in the childrearing techniques of the Bible (see the list above) every week or most every month. God said it, we practice it, that does it for us. Of course, when the child grows up a bit, they will walk and should.

Go get a concordance or topical Bible and look up "snuggle, kiss, blowbelly, "ahhh boo!", picnic, swimming, hugs, vacation, free time, love you mom, love you dad, love you son, love you sis, sports, college, education, free thinking, respect, reading, children's literature, Goldilocks, quiet time, caress, self-esteem, mental health, smiling, mommy, daddy, bedtime, stuffed animals, puppets, cookout, fishing, zoo, did I say "blow bellies?" .... oh you know, the good words. Good luck... and we'll keep the flames of Molech on for ya