"... the best Jewish response to "The Jews don't know their own scriptures"
I have ever heard and from the "horses mouth."
Anyone who has grown up in the church, heard repeatedly from the pulpit that the Jews have a veil over their eyes and are unable to see Jesus as Messiah (II Corinthians 3:14). this was widely taught until the church opened the Ambassador Auditorium and sought to bring Itzhak Perlman to perform. Even though the church had been active in working with archaeological digs in Jerusalem for years, they still taught that the Jews were deceived. The Jewish community in Los Angeles had grown tired of the endless accusations against them and stirred up a stink warning Perlman not to perform. The Church quickly backtracked that teaching and actively started courting the Jewish community in Los Angeles. After dumping hundreds of thousands of dollars on private dinner parties and receptions, they slowly brought many in the Jewish community to support the Auditorium.
Having Arthur Rubinstein open the Auditorium helped the church immensely and it soon was actively involved with government officials in Israel.
This is the verse we used to denigrate the Jewish people:
II Corinthians 3:14
No mind they have turned this veil into a blindfold which is not the meaning of the Old Testament passage about Moses and the veil he wore going into God's presence and the shine on his face after receiving the Law or Old Covenant. .But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
Amstrongites are on shaky group for claiming Jews have a veil over their eyes, when most of the splinter groups have a thicker veil covering their eyes about Jesus than any Jew has. The various ACOG's are just like the Jehovah's Witnesses and Adventists when it comes to trumpeting the law over the new covenant. Rules keep people safe and withing the box. Freedom leads people to do amazing things, which is why so many COG's false prophets can't stand it.
38 comments:
While I am making every effort to limit myself and move on, it is important here to know that this is not my posting. I found this, for me, to be an excellent discussion by a qualified Rabbi on the charge against Jews by Christians that they don't even know their own scriptures.
I sent it to Gary weeks ago just for interest and how well it answers the reasons why Jewish people understand their scriptures just fine.
The reason this is a Christian view of the Hebrew scriptures is that the Jews can't even see Jesus obviously predicted in them. This Rabbi very well shows just how untrue that is by showing what the Old Testament scriptures mean and meant and how the NT writers used it to make it mean what it never meant.
Bluntly, the danger and predictable offense this posting could bring is first that it just another posting by myself, which it is not, as it addresses very familiar themes and ones which I would totally agree with and know are true.
Secondly, It is Paul, again a theme in my past postings, that is the culprit here as a NT writer as the Rabbi so well points out. This is not about the Churches of God not understanding Jesus by getting lost in the LAW, which certainly they are guilty of. But the Rabbi is showing how all NT writers misused the Jewish Scriptures to tell their story. Again, another familiar theme that might suggest I posted this which again, I did not.
Con't...
The problem with Paul's reasoning is that in the story of Moses and the Veil in Exodus 34. Moses did not wear a veil when talking with God and God was giving him the Law or the Old Covenant etc. He wore the veil because of the radiance that encounter is said to have caused in his face when he talked to the people and gave the people what God said.
Paul takes a little twist on the story and turns the veil meant to simply shield the radiance of the law in his face speaking to the people, and turns it into a blindfold on the Jews as to the content and meaning of their own scriptures. Simply Paul turned the original story on its head for his own teachings.
con't
This misuse of the OT is a Pauline trait and if he was really (I don't believe so) a "Pharisee of the Pharisee, Concerning the law-perfect," "Above all his fellows" and trained by Gamaliel, he was a poor one and no Pharisee would ever be caught reasoning this way.
A problem with the posting is that, yes the Churches of God can't see Jesus for all their love of the law. They can't get out of the OT and into the New it seems. But this presentation shows how all the NT writers played loose and free with the OT scriptures to tell their stories and form their doctrines, which they did indeed do.
I hesitated to even comment and just let it go where it goes, but I could also see another round of personal attack for same, same etc, and wanted to make it clear I did not post this and would not have in my name.
While it is an excellent lecture and true by the people who know best what their scriptures mean and to whom they were written and why, I suspect few here will take the time to listen to it all and certainly not agree with the Rabbi as is the custom of most on such a hot topic who see the figure of Jesus at every turn in the Old Testament.
Personally I have no intention of posting any previous views again, which I have been guilty of simply because few if anyone ever comments on the content of the actual post and I kept hoping they would for the sake of discussion and seeing a bigger view on all things Bible, nor anything of interest outside the drama in the COGs in the future.
I do encourage any and all of you who are regulars here to contribute postings to Banned along the lines of your own experiences, observations and lessons learned. Sharing experiences can help many who might come here but say nothing. You never know your story may help. SHT has done this as well as few others from time to time and the contributions are valuable for this audience.
So the Rabbi's explanation of the Jewish scriptures has implications for how they have been misused by the Christian Church. A bigger topic than the COGs missing the point.
yeah, and when Jesus returns they will look upon him whom they pierced...and say, "oh, it's YOU"...and they will mourn.
Bottom line:
The actual presentation will trouble most and best wishes to Gary. š
What do the Jews know, and what do they not know? We do know that they knew more than HWA gave them credit for. I mean today is 20 Nisan, 5779, which is a large part of why we didn't flee in '72, and why Jesus didn't return in '75. The New Covenant dilluted what little authority the priests and Sanhedrin had left following the Roman conquest, and they have had 2,000 + years to develop a response to the New Covenant, but still I look forward to watching the video later this evening when there is disposable time. It will probably be similar to a radio program I listened to back in the '80s featuring two scholarly rabbis (is there any other kind?)
BB
It is interesting Dennis.
If only this Rabbi could have explained this to the Christians before 2000 years of persecution.
I guess you saw at Yad Vashem how the Iraelis make the sobering link between all instances of anti semitism.
Luckily we have good education now in the Western World and a body of experience.
So it will never happen again..........
nck
I'm half way through this clip. I agree that the OT scriptures aren't clear that Jesus is the Messiah, but that is by Gods design. The Jews would not have put him to death otherwise. This presenter claims that Jesus can only be identified by using the 'Jesus glasses.' He claims this to proof that Christ isn't really the Messiah. However in Acts 8, Philip had to put on the eunuch the 'Jesus glasses' for him to see Christ in the OT. So the 'Jesus glasses' is not wrong. It had to be that way to ensure Christ's death.
This author claims many scriptures are twisted, such as Christ being called out of Egypt. Not so, rather these scriptures are types.
He also claims that miracles don't prove anything since Pharaohs magicians also performed miracles. True, but their power was limited. They could not raise the dead.
At any rate, a dove resting on Christ, and a voice claiming Christ as Gods son confirmed Christ's identity. Not forgetting, a simply prayer request will clarify this issue.
The Jews messed up, and are denying that their hands killed Christ. This Rabbis intellectualizing away the truth is to be expected. Dennis's orgasmic gloating over this supposed discrediting of the bible is unwarranted.
Thanks for this video. It is interesting to hear why they believe what they do instead of listing to some COG minister making a bunch of uneducated claims, as the church has been prone to do, and still does. Most members have never bothered to study ordinary research into Judaism even though they claim to be "spiritual" Jews.
I will watch it later.
There are about one million Jews who have converted to Christianity, so now all feel the same way as the Rabbi's message you posted.
The holocaust was a big turn off for a lot of survivors since they were being persecuted by "Christian" guards.
Christianity over the years has sometimes been quite violent and intolerant.
Lets face it, humanity can be loving or hateful and sometimes both.
It is up to us individually which path we follow.
Listened to the recording. While he makes some good points - you can argue either way. The Messianic Jewish community believe the scriptures do point to Jesus. Even more Jews attend non Jewish Christian churches.
However, the COG understanding was quite limited, not always right, but never in doubt!
Many of the different Christian groups are not so hung up on my way, or the highway. They have friendly relationships with other churches and even have joint projects and get interfaith get togethers.
Anon 140 said: " agree that the OT scriptures aren't clear that Jesus is the Messiah, but that is by Gods design. The Jews would not have put him to death otherwise."
You are just making that up. You can't possibly know that is the reason for anything.
Anon 140 said: "However in Acts 8, Philip had to put on the eunuch the 'Jesus glasses' for him to see Christ in the OT. So the 'Jesus glasses' is not wrong. It had to be that way to ensure Christ's death."
In Acts 8 the author of the story made the same mistaken use of Isaiah 53 to promote the idea of Jesus when, as the Rabbi clearly showed, was not a Messianic chapter. It has been misused for a very long time.
Anon says: "This author claims many scriptures are twisted, such as Christ being called out of Egypt. Not so, rather these scriptures are types."
The author is a Rabbinic scholar familiar with his own Jewish scriptures. We are all very familiar with "types" but that is types are a type of made up apologetic so that the twisting of scripture does not seem so twisted and tortured. The idea of "Types" is a grievous misuse of scriptural intent. Basically the concept of "types" is just made up to make a pious conviction based on marginal information or interpretation seem an ok thing to do.
Anon 140 says: "He also claims that miracles don't prove anything since Pharaohs magicians also performed miracles. True, but their power was limited. They could not raise the dead.
"
First of all there is nothing that says raising the dead qualifies one as Messiah. Secondly you assume the stories of the dead being raised when they are highly questionable and unprovable stories is clear proof of something. It is not. Resurrection tales are just that. I know we all have been raised on "It's in the Bible" but with unbelievable tales we sometime have to say, "So what..." It's not provable and is a faith issue.
Anon 140 said: "At any rate, a dove resting on Christ, and a voice claiming Christ as Gods son confirmed Christ's identity."
Or so says a story told by an anonymous Gospel writer who was not present to see or hear any of this as the Gospels are not eye witness accounts of anything and don't claim to be. It's a story with meaning for some but not history.
Anon 140 says: "he Jews messed up, and are denying that their hands killed Christ. This Rabbis intellectualizing away the truth is to be expected."
Actually it was the Romans who crucified Jesus in the Gospel tale. The writer implicated "the Jews" by choosing "Judas" as the villain and the message was not lost on the audience. You could bash the Jews all you wanted in the day and blame them for whatever because they generally were powerless to respond. Picking on the Romans was another thing. They will annihilate you and did. To read the Gospels you'd hardly know that Jerusalem was in Roman control and the story takes place during the Roman occupation. However there are Jews annoying Jesus everywhere. Safer way to tell a story in the day.
This Rabbi addressing the facts of his own scriptures is to be respected not just expected. One might just a surely say that you, spiritualizing away the truth of the Jewish scriptures which are well understood by Jewish scholars and laymen is to be expected as well.
Anon 140 said: " Dennis's orgasmic gloating over this supposed discrediting of the bible is unwarranted."
As is your childish and shallow pretense that you know me, my motives and emotional state in simply endeavoring to pry the narrow box of the Church of God experience open a bit and answer the questions as to whether the Jews do or don't know the content, meaning and intentions of their own scriptures. I'd love to see you explain all this to a Jewish Scholar or Rabbi. You wouldn't last thirty seconds.
And too...Get after Gary! He posted this! :)
Hi tla.
The holocaust is not so much a turn off, rather a "conclusive" phase in 2000 years of persecution.
And 3500 years for the judah segment if we include pharaos.
From a NT view the jews did not accept the new revelator and because of a narrow interpretation of some scriptures suffered bevause of that. This rabbi had 2000 years to think about an answer why there was no acceptance. While the NT states it was not in their hearts so they could not see the fulfillment OF their scriptures.
Armstrongism, as the perfect religion, states that they had no "choice" as you imply since their eyes had not been opened by the holy spirit.
Thats where armstrongism stayed arms lenght from anti semitism so rampant in classic catholicism like Luther espoused as a catholic priest.
Armstrongism at least both condemned and saved all men, not a singular race.
Nck
Dennis
So according to you, the dove sitting on Christ, and a voice affirming Him as the messiah, is just a story by a anonymous gospel writer who wasn't there, and is just a story for some, but not history. And this is true because Oracle Dennis says so.
Such ongoing tooth and nail opposition to every expression of Christian belief is not the purpose of this blog.
Anon 140 said: "He also claims that miracles don't prove anything since Pharaohs magicians also performed miracles. True, but their power was limited. They could not raise the dead."
1 KINGS 17:17-24 Elijah revives the widow's son
2 KINGS 4:18-37 Elisha raises the Shunammite's son
Elijah and Elisha were not messiahs yet performed miracles. Israel's kings were messiahs but did not perform any miracles.
Also, the Torah warns of a miracle working 'prophet' who entices people to serve another god. One has to check the prophet/minister's words against the Torah. There is no progressive revelation.
DEU 12:32 - 13:1-5 “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods’—which you have not known—‘and let us serve them,’ you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him. But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has spoken in order to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of bondage, to entice you from the way in which the Lord your God commanded you to walk. So you shall put away the evil from your midst."
Contrast Deu 13 with Heb 13:17 "Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you."
BB, regarding the New Covenant ...
1. Comparing Hebrews 8:8-12 against Jeremiah 31:31-34
Hebrews 8:8-12 … Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
Jeremiah 31:31-34 … “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
2. Is it possible for God to reject Israel and Judah?
Jeremiah 31:35-36 … Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for a light by day, the ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, who disturbs the sea, and its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): “If those ordinances depart from before Me, says the LORD, then the seed of Israel shall also cease from being a nation before Me forever.”
Have those ordinances departed from God?
Jeremiah 31:37 … Thus says the LORD: “If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, says the LORD.
Can the heaven above be measured? Can the foundations of the earth be searched out beneath?
3. What if Israel continue in its sins?
Leviticus 26:14-17 If Israel disobeys God …
Leviticus 26:18-20 After all the above and Israel still sins, God will punish them 7 times more
Leviticus 26:21-22 If Israel still sins, God will bring 7 times more plagues
Leviticus 26:23-26 And if Israel continues sinning, God will punish them 7 times
Leviticus 26:27-39 After all these and Israel still sins, God will chastise them 7 times
Leviticus 26:40-43 But if they confess … God will remember His covenant with Jacob …
Leviticus 26:44-45 "… Yet for all that, when they are in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, nor shall I abhor them, to utterly destroy them and break My covenant with them; for I am the LORD their God. But for their sake I will remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the nations, that I might be their God: I am the LORD.’ ”
4. Points to Remember
Jeremiah 31:31 The New Covenant will be made with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Jeremiah 31:32 They are the physical descendants of Ancient Israelites whom God led out of Egypt.
Jeremiah 31:33 God will put His law in their minds and write it on their hearts.
Jeremiah 31:34 The New Covenant age is the time when everyone knows the true God. No need for preaching! It is still in the future …
Anon April 30, 2019 at 6:42 AM,
Have you read the first 9 verses of Zechariah chapter 12? It describes a time when the nations of the earth are gathered against Jerusalem (verse 3). God will defend Jerusalem and destroy all the nations that come against it (verses 4-9). Clearly, this is not speaking of the 2nd Temple time.
Have you read Zechariah 12:11? The prophet states that the incident will be like the one that happened before in Megiddo. He is speaking of the time when Josiah, the warrior king, was killed (2 Kings 23:29, 2 Chronicles 35:22-25).
From the verses above we get the context of Zechariah 12:10. It is NOT speaking of a crucifixion more than 2,000 years ago but a future death of a presumably well known leader during a final conflict in Jerusalem.
First, to 11:17: You just wasted a bunch of time, because I'm not going to debate you on New Covenant vs Old Covenant. Been there, and done that for years. I restudied this topic in depth, came to a totally new and healthier understanding, and it's now a resolved constant in my life and mind. Perhaps that can happen for you, too.
Realy enjoyed the Rabbi's presentation. Gotta love that sense of thousands of years of processing it all, to say nothing of the wonderful Talmudic logic. I can understand why Jewish people are generally at or near the top of every field. It has always been a pleasure for me to be amongst my Jewish friends.
However, this comes from just one perspective. It would also be interesting to hear from a Muslim cleric on the topic of Jesus. Islam is the third part of the trifecta, the remaining Abrahamic religion, and I understand that the sons of Ishmael consider Jesus (Isa) to be a prophet, but not the Messiah. Why?
Interestingly, science started with zero intel, and once man began to be able to record his thoughts and accumulate knowledge (about 10,000 years BCE), a fund of knowledge, discoveries, and constant correction have advanced mankind to the point at which we find ourselves today. On the other hand, religion is based on revealed truth, most intense at point of entry, with people analyzing, attempting to grasp, and preserving as much of the original intent and enthusuasm as possible. In a sense, it is like radioactivity, diminishes with time. And, this is true of all the great teachings from what some collectively call "the ascended masters". As this applies to the case in point, our friend the Rabbi is indulging in apologetics supporting an ancient position.
Let's have some fun seeing what other Banned cliches we can induce to impeach the Rabbi! First, he appears to be a Torah inerrantist. He also (gasp) actually refers to miracles, although he does acknowledge that miracles are not one of the criteria by which we can prove messiahship. You'd think that as a critical thinker, he would at least have mentioned Neil deGrasse Tyson somewhere in his presentation. The thrust of the message seems to be that of encouraging Jews to preserve their beliefs and traditions, and to be closed minded towards those who would lead them in other directions. Rabbi also seems to be somewhat knowledgable of the Greek scriptures (NT), but since he is not a Christian, how can he possibly fully understand them?
There, wasn't that fun??? If we use this video for the limited purpose of illustrating the fact that Jews understand their own scriptures to a deeper extent than HWA realized or taught, the video shall have been effective. However, except perhaps in an arcane sense, Rabbi did not in any way prove that Jesus was not the Messiah. Still, it was so refreshing not to see KMart curtains and crooked wall decorations in the background, to witness a well organized, logical, and articulate presentation, and to receive a great lesson in effective usage of hand gestures.
Now, we need to hear from a Muslim!
BB
10.24 PM
Elijah and Elisha performed miracles similar to Christs. But Elijah and Elisha didn't claim to be the Messiah, have a John the Baptist or walk around for 40 days after a public death.
The 'sign or wonder' in Deud 12, 13, is not necessarily a miracle. It can be predictions about the future. Or a persuasive argument. All miracles ultimately come from God. He would not allow such miracles to create confusion about the identity of the Messiah.
Hebrew 13.17 is a deliberate mistranslation. King James wanted a church and Bible authority to lord it over members. His translators accommodate him. The translation should read something like "take heed of/be persuaded by the example of your teachers."
So basically Dennis is saying that anything the Jewish Rabbi is saying would be correct, because he knows the scriptures. Fine so far.
But then Dennis goes on to suggest that anything in the New Testament that would indicate that Jesus is the Messiah is just conjecture, made up by the authors to fit the picture they wanted.
With that frame of mind discussion starts getting pointless, because any point made is rejected, on the basis that it never actually happened, it was just written to give credence to the idea of the returned Messiah.
Anon said:
And this is true because Oracle Dennis says so.
Such ongoing tooth and nail opposition to every expression of Christian belief is not the purpose of this blog.
It has nothing to do with belief. It has everything to do with understanding how the scriptures came to be and perhaps be mature enough to move on from the Sunday School lesson approach as children. The Gospels are well known by scholars not to be eyewitness accounts and the life and story of Jesus, in many places, are taken from Old Testament scriptures to fill it in. "According to the scriptures" does not mean "As prophecied in the scriptures" It means that the current topic was taken from the scriptures. No Gospel author ever says "Then Jesus and I went to .." or "Then Jesus said to me..." Nor do they say, "I saw the Dove descend and heard God himself say...." I'm not hostile to the Bible or out to hurt your faith. I am fascinated with it and simply lifetime wish to know how it all came to be and why.
No snark necessary....
Dennis Diehl said: " The Gospels are well known by scholars not to be eyewitness accounts"
Luke never claimed to be an eyewitness ...
LUKE 1:1-3 “Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus,”
Luke is never mentioned in any of the gospels. His name appears in 3 epistles - COLOSSIANS 4:14, 2 TIMOTHY 4:11 and PHILEMON 1:24.
Hi BB,
The muslim religion was spawned by Muhammed and co religionists from the Arabian peninsula who were in frequent contact with Rabbi's and Church of God who had fled Jerusalem. The Christian writings they used for compiling the Quran were mainly Syriac.
They refer to Jesus as a "special being" but not an angel akin to a special man. A prophet, not the Mahdi, and CERTAINLY NOT a God.
(I knew that when I heard HWA say to Hosni Mubarak that they worshipped the same "Allah)
I saw a 7 part documentary with the best of scholars there are on offer on the Quran and Jesus and Maria et. al. The series can be ordered online.
https://sales.arte.tv/fiche/JESUS_ET_L_ISLAM
nck
And if you dispute the contact that Muhammed had with the Church of God (Ebionites) and other refugees from Jerusalem adhering to the oldest form of christianity, why then would they call their religion "Submit?"
Isil gathered in Northern Syria for their last stand since it prophesied that the Mahdi or deliverer would descend there. Unfortunately it was allied bombs that descended on those criminals. (and the poor children that sheltered in the holes and caves as their "Petra".)
nck
Thanks, nck. we're so accustomed to hearing bogus claims made about the "true history" of the allegedly true church. Can you actually document that the Ebionites adhered to all of the classic Armstrongite doctrines? I mean, some serious documentation, so that we won't later find out something similar to the fact that the Waldenses actually wore sabbots, and HWA had interpreted that to mean that they were sabbatarians?
I'm also aware of the Peshitta, because of its widespread usage by Christian scholars, often used to clarify obscure scriptures, and to provide second source confirmation. Dr. Gene Scott was a human polyglot, and he frequently used the Syriac, Ethiopic, and Coptic scriptures to elucidate certain passages, back in the '80s when I listened to him daily, as an open-minded agnostic.
I'm not going to purchase the documentary series you referenced, but perhaps Gary can find a lecture by a Muslim cleric similar to the presentation of the Canadian Rabbi presented above.
BB
Hello BB.
Thanks for acknowledging my usual mix of a little bogus speculation intertwined with the very best of scholarship.
I would recommend the documentary for french or german speakers. I don't even know if its available in english.
My little bogus speculation about the early christians in Medina originated some 20 years before I read Malmite writings. In one of the worlds bestsellers the writers speculated about muhammed and his contacts with conservative rabbis before he founded islam.
The writers of that book had also contacted Pasadena about the wcg prophetic timeline as they contributed an entire chapter on hwa. This was 20 years before they sued Dan Brown for copyright infringement on his first major book and later movie
They lost the case for intelectual property theft or rather Dan Brown won, since the court ruled that both their theories and therefore neither Dan Browns books were original thought.
Reminds me of Rader vs Spielberg for Raiders of the lost ark.
I believe the answers to your questions are extremely profound and should lead to world peace or accustomization of the abrahamic religions.
Just months ago the pope and the grand mufti of al khazar signed a memorandum of understanding regarding a "merging" of ideas in I believe Doha.
And the pope also apologized for the behavior against the waldensians.
I visited the waldensian medieaval school for priests in the piedmont mountains some years ago. It was nothing like Ambassador College. It was more like a farmhouse.
I barged into a meeting of their world council and they were welcoming and friendly. I wonder what would have happened if I would barge into a ministerial refresher program back in the days. Disfellowshipment? Anyhow.
Great topic as to what constitutes truth, the search, the journey, or some factual "proof of similarity" in a codex? I feel muhammed was heavily influenced by secondary sources and it is really not so hard to understand what sources when one has a wcg background.
A person could never understand that by reading a scolarly work. You need to have lived it, believed it, to see the similarities of application of the philisophies.
Thats why Dennis likes it here despite oppisition. Even his biggest enemies here are closer than the next door neighbor in regards to philosophical outlook. Only the antagonists need to lighten up a bit and see this aspect of our former association.
Nck
Dennis,
Talking of types, the bible is written in such a manner that scriptures can be viewed from different angles and different levels of depth. Hence Christ coming out of Egypt is one, but not the only interpretation of the verse that this Rabbi claims is being misapplied to Christ. I find it hard to believe that he is ignorant of this. Again, he's whitewashing the Jews involvement in Christ's death.
1158 I believe you missed the point of the presentation bigly
11:58 AM I cringe when people want to blame the Jews for the death of Jesus.
If you believe the NT, then it is clear Jesus was expected to die for our sins, which He did.
Plus the Jews were responsible for the NT and the start of the Christian Church.
Without the Jews - no Christians.
If you don't believe the NT, then you have no idea what happened, and whether it is fact or fiction. You may as well blame them for the death of Santa Claus.
Eisegesis, exegesis, various proofs and proof-texting of different doctrinal matters, this is why people ordain themselves as prophets and apostles. There is so much well thought out and well-written material out there, that some feel a need to utilize themselves, their own "authority" as apostle or prophet as validation. If you agree with any given group, you are said by that group to have the Holy Spirit, and to have been granted understanding. By extension, and circular reasoning, and a dash of the end justifies the means, this authenticates everything said or done in that particular group. Much better to do your own study, and to remain free of the institutional biases, which are the stepbrothers and cousins of the biases inherent in politics and media.
BB
Lenny Bruce said it best, TLA. He made several comments on this topic, not the least of which was “I’m thankful the electric chair was not around during the time of Jesus! Could you imagine the consternation I and my people would be enduring if confronted by hundreds of Christians walking around with gold electric chair charms on chains around their necks?”
BB
TLA
I said 'the Jews involvement in Christ's death.' I did not say they are exclusively responsible for his death or that He didn't die for everyone's sins.
Dennis,
No, I am not missing the point of the presentation. He is viewing some scriptures with a certain interpretation which 'proves' his case. For my personal education, I found his explanation worthwhile. But I still don't agree with him.
BB
Exactly. 'Prove all things' means going 'solo' rather than some daddy institution telling its members what to believe. That was the Herb culture. The ministers 'proved all things' and the kiddies were told what to believe. A hijacking of a personal responsibility.
Second Temple Scriptural Exegesis in the Time of Jesus Christ
Below maybe helpful in evaluating the presentation:
“Another option is to acknowledge the unique and authoritative role that the inspired NT writers play in their interpretation and appropriation of the OT text. Since we do not share that same authority, we should not try to follow them in the use of Second Temple exegetical procedures (e.g., pesher, midrash, or allegory) in our own interpretation and application of the OT...
“ “Well, then. If God wished to reveal something of the significance of the Old Testament through His inspired apostles, would He do so through “scientific” methods that were to take twenty centuries to develop and would therefore have been totally incomprehensible to first-century readers? He not rather use those very associations and interpretative clues that would awaken the intended human response? Just as the use of imperfect human languages like Hebrew and Greek can prove an adequate channel for conveying divine truth unmixed with error, so does prescientific apostolic exegesis serve to communicate, infallibly, the teaching of the Old Testament...” (Moises Silva, “The New Testament Use, p.164, quoted by Jonathan Lunde)...
“In spite of areas of disagreement on these issues, many scholars find a wide swath of agreement on the interpretive, or hermeneutical, assumptions that guided the NT authors as they appropriated texts from the Scriptures. Knowledge of these assumptions can be useful when one is attempting to understand a particular NT use of an OT text. Passages that are initially baffling to modern readers often become clear when these fundamental presuppositions are acknowledged. It will be helpful to include a brief survey of these assumptions here since our three contributors assume familiarity with them in their essays.
“It is well known that ancient Jewish groups prior to and contemporaneous with the first-century Christian Jews were perceiving fulfillments of the OT in events and people that were quite distinct from those put forward in the NT. The interpretations of Scripture found at Qumran illustrate this well. As is revealed in their writings, these sectarian Jews were convinced of their identity as the “children of light,” faithful to the covenants and the rightful heirs of many scriptural prophecies concerning the last days of the age. Equipped with their hermeneutical key - which is none other than their Teacher of Righteousness - they saw in their own history the fulfillment of end time prophecies. Accordingly, they unhesitatingly applied the Scriptures to their own community.
“What is important to recognize is that this is analogous to what the NT authors have done in their use of the OT. Equipped with Jesus, who is their interpretative key, they appropriate the Scriptures to validate their claim that Jesus is the Messiah and to bolster their assertions concerning their own identity. Like the Qumranians, they view Scripture through the lens of their presuppositions bout Jesus. I will briefly discuss the most important of these here...” (Jonathan Lunde, An Introduction to Central Questions in the New Testament Use of the Old Testament, pp.33-36). This is the introduction to “Three Views on the New Testament Use of the Old Testament).
Second Temple Scriptural Exegesis in the Time of Jesus Christ (cont.)
“Those who have studied the interpretation of Scripture among other Jews at the time, particularly at Qumran and among the rabbis, recognised that they are on familiar ground in Matthew, sometimes on the actual interpretative methods he employs, but also more widely in the creative ways he goes about discovering patterns of fulfilment, ways which modern exegetical scholarship often finds surprising and unpersuasive. But Matthew was not writing for modern exegetical scholars, and we may safely assume that at least some of his intended readers/hearers would have shared his delight in searching for patterns of fulfillment not necessarily in what the original authors of the OT texts had in mind but in what can be perceived in their writings with Christian hindsight...” (R. T. France, the Gospel of Matthew, NICNT, pp.12-13).
1) listen first time to HWA/whoever
2) Don't believe me, believe the Bible
3) Get sucked in
4) "Join" COG (supposedly you don't join the church, but yes you do)
5) don't believe the Bible, believe me, you are too stupid to understand the Bible unless you are a seasoned minister with multiple decades of experience of telling people what to do
6) wake up
7) leave (have to have 7 points)
"There's a sucker born every minute" - we were the suckers.
Comment made said: "...the best Jewish response to "The Jews don't know their own scriptures" I have ever heard and from the "horses mouth."
This post stirs up thought!
This Rabbi also wears his biased "eye-glasses" (Jewish? Israelite?) to see through.
A day, in the future, will come when this Rabbi realizes that his repentance and forgiveness of sins was all made possible b/c of what God, through His Spirit, did through a Saviour:
Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Without that Saviour, Christ our Passover sacrificed for us, where would this Rabbi, or any of us for that matter, find ourselves?
Blindness seems to be embedded within God's Plan of Salvation to save humanity and ultimately take/destroy Satan and his angels, and as far as Israel is concerned Moses was told this:
Deut 29:2 And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land;
:3 The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles:
:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."
And verse 4 was still true in the Apostle Paul's day and age, and Paul knew it, but it's not forever!
Many Jews today combine 2 separate days (Passover & the First Day of Unleavened Bread) into one, and most don't even perceive Nisan 14 as important for anything. If that isn't blindness, then what is blindness?
But that is not to blame/judge the Jews, or Israelites, for any of this. Besides, and for all of those who think the Jews/Israelites have been faithful to God since the days of Moses, we are told this:
Lam 2:5 "The Lord was as an enemy: he hath swallowed up Israel, he hath swallowed up...he hath destroyed...and hath increased in the daughter of Judah mourning and lamentation.
:6 And he hath violently taken away...he hath destroyed...the LORD hath caused the solemn FEASTS and sabbaths to be FORGOTTEN in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest."
Hope of a future change is written in the last chapter of Lamentations:
Lam 5:19 Thou, O LORD, remainest for ever; thy throne from generation to generation.
20 Wherefore dost thou forget us for ever, and forsake us so long time?
21 Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.
22 But thou hast utterly rejected us; thou art very wroth against us.
Israel, including the Jews, is still a work in progress from God's perspective. There is a conclusion to the whole matter of Israel, but it will not all be as the "horse," this Rabbi, has said.
The Rabbi made mention of a "second coming," but like so many religious leaders turns a blind eye to the second time Jesus returned for 40 days after He was resurrected. The Rabbi seeing the Jews being regathered soon is like looking for the Mickey Mouse Millennium, and he thinks the world will soon be in "shock and awe" when they see how God uses Israel, as God's workmanship, but although there is some truth to that, the timing is way off track! When will people no longer learn war anymore? Don't expect to see those events to happen until AFTER Satan is loosed from that bottomless pit...and that's still a long way off.
Is it like looking for the 10 nations, or kings, to show up on the world scene very shortly...within 5 years, 10 years, 100 years? Yes, it is still way off in the future, but...
Time, not any "horse's mouth," will tell...
John
John,
I hope that you would find this, at the very least, interesting and not offending. This is regarding your statement that some Jews 'combine' Passover and DUB into one ...
There are 4 sets of verses we need to look at - Ex 12:6, Ex 16:12-13, Ex 12:18 and Deu 16:4. You can use biblehub's interlinear to check the actual Hebrew.
Ex 12:6 Passover lamb is killed at twilight (between the two evenings - actual sunset and total darkness). It's not clear on this verse alone if it is the beginning or the end of the 14th.
Ex 16:12-13 At twilight (between the two evenings), God promised the Israelites meat. Verse 13 states the quail came at evening (different Hebrew word from between the two evenings). We can see that the Hebrew for twilight (or between the two evenings) and evening on verse 13 can be used interchangeably.
Ex 12:18 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening."
The 2 occurrences of evening come from the same Hebrew word as in Ex 16:13. If the first evening was at the beginning of the 14th, the second must also be at the beginning of the 21st which would not make sense because no leaven is eaten until the end of the 21st day. Therefore, both evenings refer to the end of the 14th and 21st.
The twilight and evening can also refer to the beginning as in Deu 16:4 "And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight remain overnight until morning."
The ‘first day’ mentioned is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The twilight (same Hebrew as in Ex 16:13) is at the beginning of the 15th which is also the end of the 14th that’s why the passover sacrifice is mentioned.
Anonymous, May 2, 2019 at 3:51 PM, wrote:
"I hope that you would find this, at the very least, interesting and not offending. This is regarding your statement that some Jews 'combine' Passover and DUB into one ...
There are 4 sets of verses we need to look at - Ex 12:6, Ex 16:12-13, Ex 12:18 and Deu 16:4. You can use biblehub's interlinear to check the actual Hebrew.
Ex 12:6 Passover lamb is killed at twilight (between the two evenings - actual sunset and total darkness). It's not clear on this verse alone if it is the beginning or the end of the 14th..."
I believe it is clear as verse 6 says one is to keep that male lamb "...up until the fourteenth day..." Until means "as far as," hence as far as the 14th, which means that one picked out that lamb on the 10th and kept that lamb through the 13th day as far as the 14th. We also know from history, when Christ walked this earth, that the Sadduccees, as a whole, were keeping Passover on the 14th, while the Pharisees, as a whole, were keeping Passover on the 15th.
You also said: "...Ex 16:12-13 At twilight (between the two evenings), God promised the Israelites meat. Verse 13 states the quail came at evening (different Hebrew word from between the two evenings). We can see that the Hebrew for twilight (or between the two evenings) and evening on verse 13 can be used interchangeably..."
Yes, and God sent the quails after the Sabbath had ended, and a new day began.
You also stated: "...Ex 12:18 "In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening."
The 2 occurrences of evening come from the same Hebrew word as in Ex 16:13. If the first evening was at the beginning of the 14th, the second must also be at the beginning of the 21st which would not make sense because no leaven is eaten until the end of the 21st day. Therefore, both evenings refer to the end of the 14th and 21st..."
Yes, but verse 18 states one is already "on the 14th day!" When one is "on" or "in" the 14th day the evening referred to is just ahead and has to be for the 15th day. Eat no leaven for 7 days, beginning on the 15th day through the 21st day. Eat leaven after the 21st day ends.
You also stated: "...The twilight and evening can also refer to the beginning as in Deu 16:4 "And no leaven shall be seen among you in all your territory for seven days, nor shall any of the meat which you sacrifice the first day at twilight remain overnight until morning."
The ‘first day’ mentioned is the First Day of Unleavened Bread. The twilight (same Hebrew as in Ex 16:13) is at the beginning of the 15th which is also the end of the 14th that’s why the passover sacrifice is mentioned..."
Correct, the word passover in Deut 16:6 ("But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.") is a mistranslation as some scribe altered the phrase "days of unleavened bread" to say "Passover" to fit with erroneous traditions.
Yes, it was interesting...
Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD’S passover.
:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
John
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