Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
I suppose it depends on 1) how you deconstruct them 2) whether you are an internal processor or an external processor, and 3) who is listening.
In most cases, introspection is best when kept to one’s self. If you share it, people can’t help but think that you have an agenda and are attempting to educate them from their mindsets.
So then BB, where would Gospel Jesus's introspection, condemnations of others beliefs and practices, table over turning and name calling (you are of the devil, whites graves and calling everyone hypocrites fit into "best keep it to one's self lest he be thought to have an agenda and trying to educate them from their mindsets too? Or does he get a pass?
I’m really not sure that I understand how it could even be appropriate to shift the application of this to Jesus, Dennis. He was and is totally unique, God in the flesh. Our Messiah and Savior. He created a pass for us, not the other way around.
Well then if one is totally unique, isn't sloppy with the facts, is God in the flesh and our Messiah and Savior, even though Mary and his brothers, in Mark, knew nothing of this and thought him insane, then the pass is granted. No observations can challenge those faith restrictions. I apologize for the sloppy observation.
What do deconstructed Christians actually believe in? GCI being a prime example. As far as deconstructed sabbatarian Christians go, it all looks like a rocky road to being neither one thing nor the other. Standing for nothing but falling for everything.
This is a common misunderstanding. Jesus is God's messiah not yours. Messiah means anointed, as in "anointed king".
If we all said anointed king Jesus we would be speaking more clearly and closer to what the jews were saying in the bible. Christ and messiah are almost meaningless words whereas "king selected by god" has no ambiguity about its meaning.
Questeruk: Pushing two plus two equals five would raise suspicions about an agenda, or at least a damaging one. Problem is, theists believe atheists are pushing that one, and vice versa.
Generally when people have resolved a particular issue in their own minds, they move on to other topics, and perhaps become eclectic posters. Your posts over the past 5 years at least have been absolutely consumed and dominated by issues over the existence of God. If there is any discernible trend, it is that your posts have become even more intense over the past few months. How many times has someone offered a one or two sentence challenge to one of your ideas, and you make between three and five additional lengthy comments in response? One might conclude from this that this issue has not been completely and satisfactorily settled in your own mind, at least to the point at which you could lighten up and get into other topics.
We know you to be a compassionate care-giver, someone with strong intelligence, and a magnetic personality. This critique has nothing to do with personal attributes or qualities, (you are a likable guy), so please don't take it as if it did.
I understand BB. I do realize I am in the wrong place here at this point in my own experience. I do get it. My conflict, in not just disappearing, is that my own comfort level is with those who at least know my past and the players and beliefs that evolve in all of us differently as we get older. I have chosen my path of non-belief because of my experiences and my studies in that which has always interested me, the Bible. That goes back to when I was teen. I was a weird teen.
Even in the few relationships I have had, I am drawn and most comfortable with those who know my past and I there's and all the baggage and growth that goes with it. I have been on "Match" and that way of meeting a partner is about as stupid an experience as I have had! lol. It's why I take my camera these days and just head out alone in Oregon to record what to me are simply wonderful sights and experiences.
So in one sense, leaving Banned, with a "90% feel free to do so Dennis" probably is difficult because there are still 10% who understand me and my journey as former member and minister. No one on Match understands me! lol They offer to pray for me and one said, "I loved your profile! You are absolutely fascinating! Until I got to the part where you said you were an agnostic. YOU MUST BE A FOOL! I told her she could forget lunch. lol. It's one reason I fled the South.
Dennis - I am still on my own personal journey (with final destination still unknown), so I can appreciate where you are and how you got here. I am disappointed in how shallow our education was at AC. The topics you have brought up should have been addressed in a Bible college. There should have been discussion and debate. There should have been at least basic required studies in the Bible languages and texts. Keep posting and challenging us. Some of us definitely appreciate it.
Imagine a young man graduating from a college run by his future employer- he goes to work for 30 some years wholeheartedly believing in the goodness of its products and services only to find that the corporate leadership has driven the ship into a sandbar. No pension, no IRA, no Social Security- then comes the realization that it was all just a bunch of bunk created by a bunch of hoaxters. Now 50 something, this man has to redefine his life and start all over again...
No, Dennis, that’s not what I meant. Stay. Just broaden your horizons. I’m sure you have themes and topics which would resonate with both believers and non-believers. Get some new material going. We critique Doug Winnail for repeating something twice, and one of our main guys paraphrases and repeats his same posts ten times or more. Doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense.
So Dennis isn't just finding fault with the bible, but he's now finding fault with God Himself. He's joined Dave Pack and other church leaders in falling off a moral cliff. The over-the-moral-cliff gang.
There are entire nations in Europe where women would run away if you would make a suggestion to be religious, although the irrationality would intrigue them first.
Also they do know where you are coming from, since from Geneva to Weimar and St Quentin, Leiden women would be able to quote Luther or Calvin from a body of required literature in highschool.
Moreover they would not mind a massage expert posing as a "liberator" at all, of course the timing for being a liberator would be off big time, but hey, haven't we all been off on timing.
I would not recommend Denmark, Sweden or Norway. Men can get misguided by their looks and believe they understand their culture. Especially if one believes one understands certain concepts coming "from the land of the free", one will soon find out that you do not really. For those not familiar with that culture it mostly leads to misunderstanding their communication and might get one arrested, as Julian Assange experienced.
I am not at all suggesting women are better company then camera's or that Seattle does not harbor different species and preferences then found in the "Carolinas." Just debating the point that you are an odd combination of ideas or even a wierd specimen from a wider world perspective.
Dennis you seem to be having some self pity. You have railed and accused people of so many things on this site, treated people really poorly and been quite rude. Even if you don't believe in God, or karma you have to believe that you get what you give. (just reality?)
There's no real reward for being unpleasant, even if it's directed at total psychopaths like the COG leaders. You reveal your character in how you treat everyone, why would expect people to like you?
Part of the reason I post anonymously is that I don't want praise for saying something smart sounding any more than I want to be attacked for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. When you put your photo up with your profile and make grand statements, it says something about who you really are that maybe you can't see from your perspective, but is really obvious to everyone else.
You want to teach those COG leaders a lesson? Be more humble than them instead of find everything wrong with them and pretend like you aren't doing the same exact thing from a different angle.
Anon 1:13 Though you assume too much, it is a good question. I think prayer is essential during deconstruction. The WCG and splinter COGs are exceedingly wrong in their focus and the construction of their beliefs. What we might have one time believed to be various Bible held beliefs were "careful" constructions. For instance, the identity of the tribes of Israel might have seemed to be for the benefit of prophecy (a terrible focus for Christians anyway), but it was used to strengthen the idea that we would still be under the terms of the Old Covenant laws because as supposed descendants of Ancient Israel the U.S., U.K. and Western Europe we were part of that ancient covenant, thus we could not claim to be as the Gentiles that were only part of the New Covenant under Christ and not under the law. This was only occasionally explicitly taught, but it was dangled about frequently. I wish the deconstruction of COG doctrine didn't include so much of a blow to how we identify ourselves, but that is the nature of such organizations. I think though that we can sometimes picture our lives in a certain way without ever experiencing the COGs and believing that a great number of our troubles would not exist but for the COGs. I can look at some troubles that would not have existed, but there are others that the COGs helped me avoid. Maybe another church could have done this too, but this is where we are and the Lord allowed it. For whatever reason we found ourselves in the COGs; what else might we have also been susceptible to? Maybe something else would have sidetracked us even if the COGs never came along to sidetrack us. If you were the type that needed special knowledge or to feel special there are other things that might have messed up portions of our lives. Maybe we see these things in our lives more clearly because we now see that they made us more susceptible to the COGs. Not always a bad thing to recognize; it could have been worse and it can be improved. I try to be thankful for it all and count on the Lord to lead me through the mess and turmoil, the most important part of our lives is already complete if we accept Christ's sacrifice and lead. Sorry if this sounds hokey; I know many have endured more than me.
It seems as though there is confusion about what is meant by "faith" I know the Bible definition used in wwcg, so please don't bother to quote Hebrews at me. What I'm saying is that for someone in the wwcg of old, there was a lot associated with the word. It wasn't simply a belief in an ultimate reality we call God, but also a belief in God's plan, how humanity fit into it, how the church fit into it, what is required of "true" Christians and so on... For someone who has left wwcg that word may still carry the associated baggage and be intolerable, or not. For someone raised in a different belief system, the word will likely carry a different set of associated ideas.
Personally, I think deconstructing is a healthy thing to do. It helps to see what ideas get associated with the terms we use. It can free us from, or at least acknowledge the existence of, group think. It can also get us to understanding whether we are engaged in an actual belief that we hold true or we have taken on under the influence of others.
Deconstruction is healthy. In effect, it is not unlike a distillation process. If there was anything of value at the beginning, in the end you are left with something pure and potent.
Unfortunately, demolition can be mistaken for deconstruction, in which case all that remains is considered to be valueless rubbish, and figuratively hauled off to the landfill.
Nothing wrong with deconstruction of one’s beliefs at all. I did this many years ago now after my associating with UCG made me realize the reality failed to measure up to the fantasy I had indulged in my mind of what it’d be like as a COG member so when I was shaken out of my sleepwalking by my experience I began to relook at everything I was taught by HWA/WCG through a more “critical analysis” lens and have since revised a lot of my understanding to align more accurately with Holy Scripture rather than WCG tradition or HWA interpretation. Moreover, at this time of year with the Passover I try to examine myself more intensively to see where my faith is coming up short and so allow myself to be further refined by the Master Husbandman. When I think back on the things I once believed to be true (and many still do in the ACOGs mind you) I smh at my ignorance and naivety wishing I could go back to my youth knowing what I know now.
32 comments:
I suppose it depends on 1) how you deconstruct them 2) whether you are an internal processor or an external processor, and 3) who is listening.
In most cases, introspection is best when kept to one’s self. If you share it, people can’t help but think that you have an agenda and are attempting to educate them from their mindsets.
BB
The sad reality is that it's often Christian apostates who deconstruct (ie, analyze) church doctrines, finding the flaws.
For other church members, it's a longer drawn out process. Typically, it's only after they have matured, that they perceive the lies and distortions.
Rational thinkers get to ride a big pink cow?
Why is it so wrong to have a belief in God?
A person can deconstruct their beliefs and still have a strong belief in God. It’s the dumb teachings of COG men that are rejected
So then BB, where would Gospel Jesus's introspection, condemnations of others beliefs and practices, table over turning and name calling (you are of the devil, whites graves and calling everyone hypocrites fit into "best keep it to one's self lest he be thought to have an agenda and trying to educate them from their mindsets too? Or does he get a pass?
Dennis
Speaking the truth is not name calling. Calling a spade a spade is not name calling. This sort of sloppiness is common in your comments.
I’m really not sure that I understand how it could even be appropriate to shift the application of this to Jesus, Dennis. He was and is totally unique, God in the flesh. Our Messiah and Savior. He created a pass for us, not the other way around.
BB
Aren't all the characters in the Bible pushing an agenda?
Think you misunderstood the point...
Well then if one is totally unique, isn't sloppy with the facts, is God in the flesh and our Messiah and Savior, even though Mary and his brothers, in Mark, knew nothing of this and thought him insane, then the pass is granted. No observations can challenge those faith restrictions. I apologize for the sloppy observation.
Anon6:21AM wrote:
"Why is it so wrong to have a belief in God?"
That's what I want to know.
Why is it so wrong to have a belief in Allah?
Why do people look at me like I'm nuts when I tell them I believe in fairies? Why is that so wrong?
Why do people look at me like I'm crazy when I tell them I believe the earth is flat? Why is that so wrong?
Why is it so wrong to believe in these things?
That's what I want to know.
If I say two plus two is four, am I pushing an agenda?
If I say two plus two is five, am I pushing an agenda?
What do deconstructed Christians actually believe in? GCI being a prime example. As far as deconstructed sabbatarian Christians go, it all looks like a rocky road to being neither one thing nor the other. Standing for nothing but falling for everything.
"...God in the flesh and our Messiah..."
This is a common misunderstanding. Jesus is God's messiah not yours. Messiah means anointed, as in "anointed king".
If we all said anointed king Jesus we would be speaking more clearly and closer to what the jews were saying in the bible. Christ and messiah are almost meaningless words whereas "king selected by god" has no ambiguity about its meaning.
Questeruk: Pushing two plus two equals five would raise suspicions about an agenda, or at least a damaging one. Problem is, theists believe atheists are pushing that one, and vice versa.
Dennis,
Generally when people have resolved a particular issue in their own minds, they move on to other topics, and perhaps become eclectic posters. Your posts over the past 5 years at least have been absolutely consumed and dominated by issues over the existence of God. If there is any discernible trend, it is that your posts have become even more intense over the past few months. How many times has someone offered a one or two sentence challenge to one of your ideas, and you make between three and five additional lengthy comments in response? One might conclude from this that this issue has not been completely and satisfactorily settled in your own mind, at least to the point at which you could lighten up and get into other topics.
We know you to be a compassionate care-giver, someone with strong intelligence, and a magnetic personality. This critique has nothing to do with personal attributes or qualities, (you are a likable guy), so please don't take it as if it did.
BB
I understand BB. I do realize I am in the wrong place here at this point in my own experience. I do get it. My conflict, in not just disappearing, is that my own comfort level is with those who at least know my past and the players and beliefs that evolve in all of us differently as we get older. I have chosen my path of non-belief because of my experiences and my studies in that which has always interested me, the Bible. That goes back to when I was teen. I was a weird teen.
Even in the few relationships I have had, I am drawn and most comfortable with those who know my past and I there's and all the baggage and growth that goes with it. I have been on "Match" and that way of meeting a partner is about as stupid an experience as I have had! lol. It's why I take my camera these days and just head out alone in Oregon to record what to me are simply wonderful sights and experiences.
So in one sense, leaving Banned, with a "90% feel free to do so Dennis" probably is difficult because there are still 10% who understand me and my journey as former member and minister. No one on Match understands me! lol They offer to pray for me and one said, "I loved your profile! You are absolutely fascinating! Until I got to the part where you said you were an agnostic. YOU MUST BE A FOOL! I told her she could forget lunch. lol. It's one reason I fled the South.
Anyway, I do get it...
Dennis - I am still on my own personal journey (with final destination still unknown), so I can appreciate where you are and how you got here.
I am disappointed in how shallow our education was at AC. The topics you have brought up should have been addressed in a Bible college. There should have been discussion and debate. There should have been at least basic required studies in the Bible languages and texts.
Keep posting and challenging us.
Some of us definitely appreciate it.
Imagine a young man graduating from a college run by his future employer- he goes to work for 30 some years wholeheartedly believing in the goodness of its products
and services only to find that the corporate leadership has driven the ship into a sandbar. No pension, no IRA, no Social Security- then comes the realization that it
was all just a bunch of bunk created by a bunch of hoaxters. Now 50 something, this man has to redefine his life and start all over again...
That would kinda suck!
No, Dennis, that’s not what I meant. Stay. Just broaden your horizons. I’m sure you have themes and topics which would resonate with both believers and non-believers. Get some new material going. We critique Doug Winnail for repeating something twice, and one of our main guys paraphrases and repeats his same posts ten times or more. Doesn’t make a heck of a lot of sense.
BB
So Dennis isn't just finding fault with the bible, but he's now finding fault with God Himself. He's joined Dave Pack and other church leaders in falling off a moral cliff.
The over-the-moral-cliff gang.
Dennis,
There are entire nations in Europe where women would run away if you would make a suggestion to be religious, although the irrationality would intrigue them first.
Also they do know where you are coming from, since from Geneva to Weimar and St Quentin, Leiden women would be able to quote Luther or Calvin from a body of required literature in highschool.
Moreover they would not mind a massage expert posing as a "liberator" at all, of course the timing for being a liberator would be off big time, but hey, haven't we all been off on timing.
I would not recommend Denmark, Sweden or Norway. Men can get misguided by their looks and believe they understand their culture. Especially if one believes one understands certain concepts coming "from the land of the free", one will soon find out that you do not really. For those not familiar with that culture it mostly leads to misunderstanding their communication and might get one arrested, as Julian Assange experienced.
I am not at all suggesting women are better company then camera's or that Seattle does not harbor different species and preferences then found in the "Carolinas." Just debating the point that you are an odd combination of ideas or even a wierd specimen from a wider world perspective.
nck
No anon 10:30 didn't...
Where does the cartoon mention anything about pushing an agenda QuesterUk ? Interesting.
A person can deconstruct their beliefs and still have a strong belief in God. It’s the dumb teachings of COG men that are rejected
Dennis you seem to be having some self pity. You have railed and accused people of so many things on this site, treated people really poorly and been quite rude. Even if you don't believe in God, or karma you have to believe that you get what you give. (just reality?)
There's no real reward for being unpleasant, even if it's directed at total psychopaths like the COG leaders. You reveal your character in how you treat everyone, why would expect people to like you?
Part of the reason I post anonymously is that I don't want praise for saying something smart sounding any more than I want to be attacked for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. When you put your photo up with your profile and make grand statements, it says something about who you really are that maybe you can't see from your perspective, but is really obvious to everyone else.
You want to teach those COG leaders a lesson? Be more humble than them instead of find everything wrong with them and pretend like you aren't doing the same exact thing from a different angle.
Anon 1:13 Though you assume too much, it is a good question. I think prayer is essential during deconstruction. The WCG and splinter COGs are exceedingly wrong in their focus and the construction of their beliefs. What we might have one time believed to be various Bible held beliefs were "careful" constructions.
For instance, the identity of the tribes of Israel might have seemed to be for the benefit of prophecy (a terrible focus for Christians anyway), but it was used to strengthen the idea that we would still be under the terms of the Old Covenant laws because as supposed descendants of Ancient Israel the U.S., U.K. and Western Europe we were part of that ancient covenant, thus we could not claim to be as the Gentiles that were only part of the New Covenant under Christ and not under the law. This was only occasionally explicitly taught, but it was dangled about frequently.
I wish the deconstruction of COG doctrine didn't include so much of a blow to how we identify ourselves, but that is the nature of such organizations. I think though that we can sometimes picture our lives in a certain way without ever experiencing the COGs and believing that a great number of our troubles would not exist but for the COGs. I can look at some troubles that would not have existed, but there are others that the COGs helped me avoid. Maybe another church could have done this too, but this is where we are and the Lord allowed it. For whatever reason we found ourselves in the COGs; what else might we have also been susceptible to? Maybe something else would have sidetracked us even if the COGs never came along to sidetrack us.
If you were the type that needed special knowledge or to feel special there are other things that might have messed up portions of our lives. Maybe we see these things in our lives more clearly because we now see that they made us more susceptible to the COGs. Not always a bad thing to recognize; it could have been worse and it can be improved. I try to be thankful for it all and count on the Lord to lead me through the mess and turmoil, the most important part of our lives is already complete if we accept Christ's sacrifice and lead. Sorry if this sounds hokey; I know many have endured more than me.
Anon 8:21 said:-
"Where does the cartoon mention anything about pushing an agenda QuesterUk ? Interesting."
I was responding to Anon April 28, 2019 at 10:09 AM, who had said:-
“Aren't all the characters in the Bible pushing an agenda?”
It was the most recent comment at the time I replied, but my comment appeared several postings down.
So – it was a reply to a comment, not to the original cartoon – probably less interesting than perhaps you thought!
It seems as though there is confusion about what is meant by "faith" I know the Bible definition used in wwcg, so please don't bother to quote Hebrews at me. What I'm saying is that for someone in the wwcg of old, there was a lot associated with the word. It wasn't simply a belief in an ultimate reality we call God, but also a belief in God's plan, how humanity fit into it, how the church fit into it, what is required of "true" Christians and so on... For someone who has left wwcg that word may still carry the associated baggage and be intolerable, or not. For someone raised in a different belief system, the word will likely carry a different set of associated ideas.
Personally, I think deconstructing is a healthy thing to do. It helps to see what ideas get associated with the terms we use. It can free us from, or at least acknowledge the existence of, group think. It can also get us to understanding whether we are engaged in an actual belief that we hold true or we have taken on under the influence of others.
Deconstruction is healthy. In effect, it is not unlike a distillation process. If there was anything of value at the beginning, in the end you are left with something pure and potent.
Unfortunately, demolition can be mistaken for deconstruction, in which case all that remains is considered to be valueless rubbish, and figuratively hauled off to the landfill.
BB
Nothing wrong with deconstruction of one’s beliefs at all. I did this many years ago now after my associating with UCG made me realize the reality failed to measure up to the fantasy I had indulged in my mind of what it’d be like as a COG member so when I was shaken out of my sleepwalking by my experience I began to relook at everything I was taught by HWA/WCG through a more “critical analysis” lens and have since revised a lot of my understanding to align more accurately with Holy Scripture rather than WCG tradition or HWA interpretation. Moreover, at this time of year with the Passover I try to examine myself more intensively to see where my faith is coming up short and so allow myself to be further refined by the Master Husbandman. When I think back on the things I once believed to be true (and many still do in the ACOGs mind you) I smh at my ignorance and naivety wishing I could go back to my youth knowing what I know now.
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