Saturday, January 14, 2012

Dale Schurter: The Master of Flip Flopping (Updated)

A reader commented on the  "The Dale Schurter Propaganda/Resignation Letter":

We had him for a pastor for awhile in UCG. Dale flip flops in his beliefs in unbelievable rapid fashion. In this letter he uses the names God and Jesus Christ. Last I knew in UCG he was using the " Sacred Names"....and admonishing UCG members they should be doing the same (to the point of members getting very upset with him). He had come to believe that using the names God and Jesus Christ was very evil. Now it seems he is using them quite frequently.

Also, the last I knew, Dale believed in keeping the new moons. And had some very different ideas than HWA about what will happen when Christ the bride will go to heaven (the sea of glass) and live there for awhile...I forget all the details, but it was radically different from what HWA taught.

He also claimed to know (via Ron Wyatt propaganda) to know where the Ark of the Covenant was (in a cave under Golgotha with Christ's blood on it), not to mention, where Noah's ark was, Sodom and Gomorrah (he even brought some sulfur smelling rock to church and in his sermon invited people to come up later to smell it...claiming it was authentic rock from Sodom & Gomorrah). Plus the true crossing of the Red Sea site by the Israelites, plus more. And also, the Sabbath doesn't begin and end at begins before sunset (unspecified time) and ends after sunset (again unspecified time).

Oh, I could go on and on....oh yes, he also claimed to believe that members should have input and that he believed in a team effort...not the old top down stuff.

So now fast forward just 6 years or so and now he is claiming to believe in everything that HWA taught. RCG has it all just right and is God's only true church on earth. Yet it was UCG that tolerated Dale's "different" beliefs, and didn't boot him out on his behind.

So my question is: has Dale now changed his beliefs back to what HWA taught (has Dale now gotten "back on track"?) or does he still hold to some of the beliefs he was teaching in UCG (one week instead of sermon we had to watch a Ron Wyatt tape)? If he has reversed a lot of what he was teaching....I guess he will be OK in RCG. If he hasn't...and is "just pretending" to put a good face on to the Packman...then trouble is ahead for Dale because I do not think RCG will tolerate his beliefs for long...after they finish using him as a propaganda tool.

Added 1/15/12    
According to Dave, the earth is millions of years old. According to Dale its 6000.      Is the Earth 6,000 Years Old?
So "Mr. Dinosaurs lived with man" is already at odds with his new guru.


Anonymous said...

Hmmmm, can't much in any of this Dave will go for. I have a feeling that Dale is about to receive a revelation that he was off the track himself.


Byker Bob said...

While David Pack's "overts" seem to be indicative of slavish adherence to HWA's teachings, one must also wonder about about apparent facades. His own son Randy appeared to have undergone a miraculous transformation several years back. Armstrongism has always had a certain amount of duplicitousness, the ends apparently justifying the means, and apparently some cultmeisters are true to this aspect of HWA's methodology as well.


Mish-Mash said...

I totally agree. He believed in a young earth theory that the earth really is 6000 years old and that the dinsaurs lived with people and were wiped out in the flood. I sent a note to RCG and asked if they believe that or the HWA old earth theory.

Let's see if I get an answer from RCG then I'm going to confront him with it.

Black Ops Mikey said...

Hirelings are flexible, depending upon salary and benefits.

Anonymous said...

Douglas, yes they are very flexible. I think that has been proven time and time again.

If you bring in a lot of people, those "unofficial" beliefs don't matter as long as you don't make a big issue of it. And on the other hand, giving lip service to God's apostle doesn't seem too hard.

Pack has such a history of not getting along with anyone for very long- it will be interesting to see how this plays out like M.T. suggested.

Anonymous said...

How dare you criticize a man of God such as Mr. Schurter! He has done more to bring the true gospel to people than any of you filth have!

Anonymous said...

Yes,I completely agree with above anonymous post! Being honest about "men of God" is not God's way! So all of you filthy scum need to stop drawing unnecessary attention to their bad examples and start practicing what they preach instead, which I am 99% sure is the 100% true gospel. BTW, I am Dave Pack's mistress, so I should know. You are all mean people, so I'm gonna go cry now. I hope you all feel really bad.

Mish-Mash said...

Ha Ha, Found it !
According to Dave, the earth is millions of years old. According to Dale its 6000.

So "Mr. Dinosaurs lived with man" is already at odds with his new guru.

BTW Awesome Green Bay / Giants game. Go Giants !!!!

Retired Prof said...

To the anon who objects to criticism of Mr. Schurter:

To exempt a person from criticism is wrong. It shields that person from knowing how to do better and inhibits his or her further growth. If the person is in a position to exploit and harm others (as a minister in a CoG assuredly is), then a failure to criticize where criticism is due is a failure to do right by our fellow human beings.

Admittedly, to defend a person from unwarranted criticism is a good thing, and if that was your intent, your impulse was good. However, you need to take a different approach. Do you have specific details about how Mr. Schurter has effectively counseled members of his flock? Consoled them in their sorrows? Exulted with them in their joys? Channeled support to them in their hour of need?

Those are the kinds of things that would convince his critics to modify or perhaps even withdraw their criticisms. This business of "bring[ing] the true gospel to people" is all well and good in its place (as long as we are absolutely sure the gospel is true), but it doesn't really count for much in comparison to Matthew 25:39-41:

"And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

Retired Prof said...

P. S. Another thing, Anon.

You weaken your credibility by classifying us as filth. It calls into question the sincerity of your Christian love.

Anonymous said...

Also, since we're talking about Dave Pack, has anyone noticed that he has declared himself to be "The Apostle of the Twenty-First Century" in what appears to be no less than a 4 hour long sermon? Not sure when that dates to, and although I am not surprised, I hadn't realized he had gone that far.

DennisCDiehl said...

Retired Prof said:

"To exempt a person from criticism is wrong. It shields that person from knowing how to do better and inhibits his or her further growth.'

Excellent insight and something WCG never understood in my experience. No one seemed able to bring constructive criticism to HWA and in so many churches there could be no criticism of the Pastor. It seems to be admitting to mistakes or something being mere opinion as opposed to truth was simply not possible. It must have been mistaken for weakness.

Even in the NT, Paul criticises him "enemies" but never accepts any. He brags about "when cursed, we bless," and the proceeds to curse and damn those who don't agree with his version of the Gospel.

The ultimate expression of this is the phoney idea that "If Mr. Armstrong (or _____________ fill in the space), is wrong, God will reveal it to them. However, that meant that God would have to make a nightime visit in person and not that someone of less stature would point it out.

You have hit on a major blind spot in the COG. Ministers don't take criticism when meant to help not hurt and members don't have the guts to do it and hold their ground.

God bless the FIRST member under Dave Pack's , Ron Weinland or Gerald Flurry's rule who stays a member and holds their ground pointing out the misconceptions of self these men have, and stays in their church of choice. It won't happen.

The idea that pointing out the serious, weaknesses and miscues of the minister must come from God and not the bottom up is a very dangerous view.

However, as mentioned, the New Testament does not contain one apology or recognition on the part of the Apostle Paul that he may not be getting the story right or that his "time is short" scenerio where people actually had their lives altered for the worse, was wrong, shows that ministry does not contain much of a way to reign in pious conviction with marginal information.

Georgia A. Prunty said...

For almost a year now, I have been attending UCG in Flushing, NY where Mr. Schurter pastored. I know the Sodom rock account is true, because I was one of those who went forward to get a closer look. However, I have found Mr. Schurter to be a man who does not hold to "watered down" teaching. Also, he was compassionate and helpful to me. So, I have not been back to UCG (don't know if I will) and have not been to RSG gathering in Queens. Quite frankly, I'm so confused now that I'm just staying home on Sabbath and studying about both and asking God for guidance. But you guys sure are tearing this man apart. Is this what you do? That's not right either.

Mish-Mash said...

Were you happy attending UCG? Was there any indication that Mr. Schurter wasn't happy there and was going to leave? If you were happy there and he was not showing any indication he was unhappy and about to leave, don't you think what he did to his congregation was a little unfair? I also attended UCG many years ago with him as our pastor. He was one of the best ministers I ever met. I didn't agree with everything he said, but you didn't feel uncomfortable disagreeing with him. I am shocked that he put his congregation in a position that if they like his leadership, they have to move over to a repressive, abusive, church. It just doesn't make sense and its not in his character. I don't think people are tearing him apart, his actions are almost a betrayal of his congregation. I like this man too. I think you should stay home and avoid RCG like the plague. If you want to go to a church, try COGWa in NJ. Epps is the minister there. Although I'm a former COGer and don't advocate any group, I know all these guys, and you need to do due dilligence and check them all out.
I feel so bad for all the UCG people who are left hurting and confused.

Byker Bob said...

If there were no criticism, no analysis, no critical thinking, then how could "iron sharpen iron"?
How could one evaluate and determine who was a true teacher, and who was false?

To forbid dissent is to create terminal dumbness. Yet, some would like to hold themselves above these very Biblical principles.


Georgia A. Prunty said...

MM, was I happy there? It wasn't a matter of being happy as it was an inner feeling that I had come closer to the truth of the Scriptures than ever in my life. No doubt I was led to UCG. But for what purpose I ask the Father. I've been to them all thru the course of my life since the mid 70's. Don't like the way this happened, makes me uncomfortable. Also, I've heard of Mr. Epps. He was the one that split from Flushing right before I came in. Think he's still in Queens, not NJ. Going to study on my own including this site. The "Apostolic Treasures" thread really distubed me. I forwarded it to Mr. Schurter asking for an explanation. Also to a member of UCG, Flushing who wants to "help me." We'll see where the Lord leads.....Peace!

Anonymous said...

Oh, and to answer your question MM. I personally did not have a clue he was planning to leave and he gave no indication that he so intended. I hope to visit him at his home in a couple weeks. He's been pretty right on with me from the get-go and this will be a question I will ask!

Mish-Mash said...

All my best to you. You will find peace if you just let the Lord lead you and not any man. They are all fallible ! Glad you are going to talk to DS, but don't let him talk you into anything. Let him know how bad it made you feel that he left. Doing the "wrong thing for the right reason" is still doing the wrong thing. Staying home is a good thing. It really clears your head.
MM aka Mish Mash

Georgia A. Prunty said...

Thank you MM. Mr. Schurter just left me a voice mail, but did not yet explain the "Apostolic Treasures" as I had requested when I forwarded it to him. I'm resending it because I need an explanation of this before I consider either UCG or RSG as they are both, shall we say, offshoots of Mr. Armstrong. You have been very civil and if I see you here again, I will let you know what my explanation was. Thanx and peace!

Anonymous said...

I remember when Mr Schurter used to speak about the theory Of Telegony in bible study. Telegony is the belief that
a woman's offspring could inherit characteristics of former mates.