Monday, April 2, 2012

Van Robison on "Living on Church Welfare"




Living on Church Welfare


It has long been my opinion that church pastors such as Herbert W. and many thousands of others, live on church welfare, or at least did before they passed from this life.  Somehow it does not seem right that those who lead others live from tithes and donations, while real men work for a living and support their own families.  I can never forget a Friday night Bible study in Pasadena, when as was the custom, one of the members with a very large family, sent forward a question about paying "3rd tithe", when he had a very large family and had a hard time feeding his clan of nine children, wife and himself on his wages.  Garner Ted in his cold-hearted reply to that question stated that "if you have to starve to death, you pay the 3rd tithe."  That was a real revelation about the character of GTA.  Of course GTA didn't really "work" for a living, but lived from the financial sacrifices of the doctrinally indoctrinated.

There are many who think they are "called", "anointed" and "appointed" by God or Jesus Christ to "pastor" others and as a consequence they believe they have a "right" to your pocketbook, not based upon anything taught by Jesus, but certain comments made by Paul or those who put words in the mouth of Paul.  Jesus actually said to His disciples "freely you have received freely give" and I take that to mean, don't go out and merchandise the name of Jesus Christ for your own welfare.  Of course the world of churches would not even exist without the false tithes and offerings, which are the means to a free lunch for life for the "pastors" and often much more than just food on the table, but luxuries, perks and financial benefits of living the life of kings and queens in the earth for many.

One "pastor" I sent an email to some years ago had the retort that "tithing" was the means that Jesus established to "preach the Gospel to the world."  Naturally that is the excuse they all have.  It is much easier to respect those who work for a living than those who live on donations, tithes and offerings.  Governments of men are really no different than man-made religions, because those who work for government live from "tithes" (taxes) as do preachers and think it is perfectly a moral right.  Does it not seem strange that those who demand your money, are the very ones who control your thinking and think they have a "right" to rule over your life?  Many who work for government in all of its myriad forms also think they have a "right" based upon certain verses in the Bible, such as Romans 13.  Of course many in government are also "Christians" and their rule book is the "Bible" as they interpret it.  "Obey the rulers" is rubber stamped into the minds of millions and etched in stone in the thinking of many the world over.

If there were no FEAR, it is doubtful that humans would see things as they do.  In the church world, many also think they will be financially "blessed" if they pay tithes, keep the Saturday Sabbath and so forth.  Most people who think this way have tunnel vision, because the world has many who are financially well off who do not go to church, pay tithes or bow to "pastors."  In fact there are no doubt many millionaires and even billionaires who are most likely atheist, or who do not go to church, pay tithes or otherwise pretend that their wealth has anything to do with "sowing a seed" into any preachers ministry.    Many church goers have a two fold sense about tithing and "Biblical" law keeping.  On one hand there is the belief that if one "obeys" the rules of tithing and keeping the Sabbath or going to church, they will be "blessed" and the reverse side of the coin, is the FEAR that to not do so is to incur curses.  I have no personal doubt that God does not micro-manage the lives of anyone.  You simply reap what you sow and if you are smart and able to financially prosper in this world, then it is not the consequence of "tithing", but of sound business or financial decisions.

One man I read about some years ago and who worked for some mega-church group, donated $200,000 over a period of time and wound up bankrupt.  Naturally he became bitter when he came to his senses about the whole idea of "sowing a seed and reaping a harvest."  Guess who reaped the harvest?  There are those who will swear that they were financially blessed as a result of "sowing a seed" or some similar act, but I would suggest that it is purely coincidental and had nothing to do with sending some preacher a check.  Some will say they received an unexpected check from some insurance company or some other similar situation and tag that to something they did to "serve God."    It is really amazing how so many church goers connect their dots in life.

Living on church welfare is in my opinion a disgrace and a deception to those who are taken advantage of by the slick salesmen who stand in pulpits, grinding out their own private "Gospel."  On one website I know of, the preacher who is a former "Senior Pastor" of a major church group, but who resigned to be a "Father" to young pastors to bring "revival", pronounces a "blessing" on those who tithe.  And he even has a "2nd blessing" on tithe payers.  That is ridiculous as if this man could pronounce a "supernatural" blessing upon people who send him donations, while he lives on church welfare.

Real men work for a living and support their own families.


Van Robison

15 comments:

ED said...

Why does God need money? He owns the universe!!

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Good article. Thanks Van Robison for the plain truth.

Richard

DennisCDiehl said...

For better or worse, the Bible gives far more permission to those who administer the religion of choice to live off that religion, than not to.

This topic is always a button pusher for me as I was on the other side of this equation as a pastor and when this topic comes up it usually comes with all the venom and sarcasm those not having gone that route have to offer.

No one can pastor any fair sized congregation of any description as called for and do without being able to keep a roof over ones head and eat. The vast majority of pastors make a very average "living" being such.

Having grown up Presbyterian and seeing various pastor types be paid so they could do their job with the church was very normal to me and frankly is to just about all people in all churches. The abuse phenomenon started , IMO, in the 1970's when the big hairs and others discovered Television and money poured in. Like winning the lottery, it takes a wise man to wisely use the resources given by others. I am waiting for the recent lotto winner to implode over being stupid but that's another story.

It did take me a few years in WCG to realize that things such as salary, opportunities and such were dependent on who you knew and belonging to the inner groups in which I did not. I was outside the loops evidently.

I visited two pastors in Atlanta just to get together for lunch and where and how they lived made me think they must be selling drugs or something or we were not being paid by the same church. Both are still ministers in the COGs. I drove home rather stunned. After rent, food and such, that was pretty much it for the month. One of these guys had a two car garage full , and I mean full, of radio controlled airplanes.

When I was graduating and going into the ministry, I was told for me, "the sky was the limit." That struck me very odd as I did not perceive the ministry in that way. I was ordained an elder at 23, a "Preaching elder at 24" and at that rate I figued a "Pastor" at 25..ha., ridiculous. Anyway, it never happened again and for 25 years I watched my peers make more with their "promotions" Perhaps there was someone who didn't like me enough on high or whatever, but that's how it was personally.

I always thought it was funny pastoring 14 congregations in five states and speaking at every FOT the last eight years or so I could actually be a Pastor, but evidently not..ha. What a dumbass church. My mistake!!

Next life: Paleontologist

DennisCDiehl said...

PS My personal opinion has been that if Paul wrote Romans 13, he was showing his pro Roman, kiss up, protect himself side. You only attack those who can't really hurt you, like the Jews in general in Paul's case. You don't attack or pick on those who can kill you i.e. the Romans.

Otherwise, the chapter may have been added in Paul's name later to keep the church undercontrol and to settle it in for the long haul.

Obeying the rather naive statements in Romans 13 would leave the world with no American Revolution or any change out of dictators and jerks in government.

Steve said...

PLUS...these con men were never given the right to receive the "tithe" in the first place(instituted by the Catholic Church), and then, we can take this one step further and realize that an "ordained minister" is a false doctrine(another Catholic Church origin). It ain't in the bawble!

DennisCDiehl said...

The general rule for paying a pastor is to pay the average median income of the members of that congregation. Simple. It keeps things under control and it is fair.

Outside WCG and COG types, most Pentecostal ministers, far too many Baptist ministers etc, an authentic church pastor type will have had years of education not just in ministry, but counseling, real church history, languages and such. The ministers, both male and female who are transitioning from what they used to believe to what they no longer believe in The Clergy Project of Dan Barker (Losing Faith in Faith) are for the most part extremely well educated in theology and church history and deeply embedded in their communities. No one in such professional settings would ever think the man or woman should not be paid as a Pastor .

The NT teaches plenty on a paid ministry. Most of it if not all comes from the Apostle Paul and no doubt some from pseudopigrapha in his name.

DennisCDiehl said...

oops

"Outside WCG and COG types, most Pentecostal ministers, far too many Baptist ministers etc have no or precious little education in real church history and ministry. An..."

Anonymous said...

Best comment EVER is by Ed-
" Why does God need money? He owns the universe!! "

Not to disparage Dennis's comments, though. I especially liked his comment, "The abuse phenomenon started , IMO, in the 1970's when the big hairs and others discovered Television and money poured in."

Nowadays, just tune into Daystar or Trinity Broadcasting Network(TBN), and you'll find sleazy preacher after sleazy preacher after sleazy preacher after sleazy preacher trying to get you to 'sow your seed' with them.(Translated: Send them money.)
Apparently, they are into 'spreading the gospel' in a barf-tastic manner while lying and using all sorts of crap-tastic cheezy salesman tricks to get you involved.
Somehow, your wallet, and love of the REAL god and all the stuff you've ever done wrong are all intertwined.

But I admit, Jan Crouch's big hair keeps me watching for a little longer before I flip the channel.
Apparently, Jesus is using Jan Crouch's big hair to try and get me to believe David Barton's lies.

I think Jesus is involved in a bigger conspiracy than the collapse of building 7 of the WTC, or the conspiracy of Satan planting fossils to try and disprove what REAL spirit-filled Christians know.

DAMN YOU, JESUS! -
Just when I thought I could be evil enough to resist you, you pull Jan Crouch's hair out of your ass and put it on TV to get me to watch you.

Norm

Anonymous said...

Prosperity from tithing?

We can disprove that in a heartbeat.

Tithing in the community of ancient Israel was based solely on produce. One aspect of tithing based only on produce (no wages involved for obvious reasons you can figure out for yourself) was the Land Sabbath.

This Grand Experiment has been attempted by farmers in the Armstrongist churches whose sole income was the farm, over the past 70 years.

The result was there was no double produce in the sixth year. None. Therefore, the seventh year was a bust.

Farmers either had to borrow, go bankrupt, lose their land or any combination of the three.

No real blessing there: Objective proof that the tithing system based on the agriculture (there is no other kind) simply doesn't work -- it is a failed experiment.

If it ever worked, it was for a particular time, place and people. It doesn't work today.

Therefore, the preachers full of greed who insist on tithes are nothing but sociopathic hucksters robbing the poor -- the anathema and antithesis of Jesus' teachings.

Of course, we could point out that the tithers are either stupid or greedy themselves, looking for a ROI on their "selfless" giving: Standard addiction to gambling.

Anonymous said...

Tithing is gambling: Churches are casinos.

Place your bets.

The house always wins!

Anonymous said...

Well once again, the Bible itself is the culprit and through her priests of Israel and in the NT implies that God will reward the generous.

Prove me herewith and all that....

M.T.Wallets

Anonymous said...

The only thing we proved so far that the "proof" of tithing has failed, at least in connection with Land Sabbaths.

And you know, once one part of it is thoroughly disproven and shown to be drivel, like dominos (not the pizza chain -- especially not during the Days of Unleavened Bread!!!), the whole thing collapses.

But maybe our sample size is too small (Ha! Ha! Ha!).

It's still gambling. And there's more to the gambling than money: The gambling extends to quick return (as in the return of Jesus) on investment. Unfortunately, thus far, the only really consistent winner is the house (the casino churches).

John said...

Douglas Becker said:

Therefore, the preachers full of greed who insist on tithes are nothing but sociopathic hucksters robbing the poor--the anathema and antithesis of Jesus' teachings...Tithing is gambling: Churches are casinos. Place your bets. The house always wins!

I love the analogy! As the famous Homer Simpson put it: "It's funny, 'cause it's true!"

And Van Robison I couldn't have written a better article myself! It's totally obscene and insulting that Christian pastors still continue to prey on the ignorance of their flock by distorting entire passages of Scripture to "prove" the tithing doctrine. Yet, solid Christians like Russell Earl Kelly have completely obliterated their false assumptions and misleading arguments! I might have a "simplistic" view, but to use Van Robison's words, real Christian ministers should work for a living and support their own families while preaching the gospel on a voluntary basis without payment.

Byker Bob said...

Norm,

I agree with your point concerning some of the ovbious clowns and actors on Christian TV. Generally, I also enjoy your humor.

That said, could we please make our points civilly, and without blaspheming our Lord and Savior? Surely that is not too much to ask.

BB

Anonymous said...

The Way of Give versus the Way of Get finally explained.

You give. They get.

Lately, the system has become unworkable. With around 666 different liars on the getting side of things, the givers simply cannot afford to support them all, and the time has come to let them starve away. ("If any will not work, neither shall he eat.")

Furthermore, supporting all sorts of lying, false prophets is a SIN, and those who do it are not innocent.