Thursday, March 9, 2017

Living Church of God: Weston, McNair and Winnail Wasted Precious Minutes With Richard Ames Stroke Issues

When you read Gerald Weston's comments below about Richard Ames recent stroke you will see one of the sad legacies of the church.   Instead of rushing him to the hospital because of the stroke, they anointed him and waited, expecting an immediate healing.  A logical person does not wait when a person is slurring their speech and  is losing feeling in there  extremities.

Prayer Request – Mr. Richard Ames

03/06/2017/in Prayer Requests /
Please remember Mr. Richard Ames in your prayers.  The message below comes from Headquarters.
Dear Fellow Ministers:
I want to update you on a situation that occurred this afternoon.  Mr. Richard Ames called me to request anointing as he was having a health problem.  It was clear that he was having trouble speaking as his speech was slurred and he reported having numbness on his right side.  Dr. Winnail, Rod McNair and I anointed him and he was better immediately, but reverted back to the slurring shortly thereafter.  We decided to call the paramedics and he was taken to hospital where he is going through a series of tests and will remain there overnight.  The problem seems to be intermittent and so far there has been no diagnosis.  Initial tests at the hospital were favorable. Your prayers will be greatly appreciated and we will keep you informed when we know more.
Kind regards,


Byker Bob said...

Don't doctors recommend taking an aspirin? Hospital, of course, but an aspirin while waiting for the ambulance. Of course if you are in Flurry's gulag, either an aspirin or the hospital mean you don't get to "take" Passover.


Redfox712 said...

Just unbelievable. To think that the leaders of LCG would put one of their own in such jeopardy is stunning. No one deserves to be neglected like that. How awful it is that HWA has made so many within the COGs negligent towards their health.

If someone is having a stroke get medical help immediately. Apparently LCG's 1% don't know that piece of advice.

Anonymous said...

Experience shows over and over that God often does NOT heal. Yet instead of accepting this as fact, and interpreting the bible accordingly, the bible is instead tortured to prove that God always heals. Where is respect for basic reality. Which means that these ministers are so arrogant that they think that they can define reality rather than yielding to it. It also smells of trying to boss God around rather than 'thine will be done.'
Again they think that God sits on a toilet seat rather than on a great throne.
So who is in charge of the universe? God or sliver leaders?

RSK said...

I dont mind them "wasting minutes" on a ministurd, if they teach hesitation to seek physicians, they should put their money where their mouths are.

James said...

These men have no faith in God to heal?

'Dr. Winnail, Rod McNair and I anointed him and he was better immediately, but reverted back to the slurring shortly thereafter.'

So if God says "no" they take Ames to the hospital because they say "yes". They counter Gods will. Those faithless men in the LCG. Or is it official that the membership can now go to doctors?

DennisCDiehl said...

GW said:" Dr. Winnail, Rod McNair and I anointed him and he was better immediately, but reverted back to the slurring shortly thereafter. "

Having been a paramedic as a hobby to distract myself from WCG drama in the last days of my ministry as well as seeing many strokes in members thru the years, I can assure you the "better immediately" is the wishful thinking those who anoint experience when they implore the Deity to intervene. He actually didn't get immediately better which would be indicated by the "reverted back" reality. Either that or God changed his mind and took the healing back maybe? "Oops, sorry...not him."

Putting anointing first in the chain of response and help to medical emergencies has delayed useful help for the actual problem. One has about 30 minutes with a stroke to get to the ER for treatment that may actually stop the damage . After that time frame it goes down hill fast. I do know that it is a knee jerk response for a minister to anoint first above all however.

Jame 5:14 etc IS the culprit in all this of course. It does not and cannot deliver as advertised. I realize some will say that "the sick will be made well" that I never saw, and I mean never, in a real medical or disease emergency would rest on my shoulders or theirs as lacking faith but please remember that Hebrews 11 actually means. "Now faith is the substance of what we hope is true. The assurance of things for which we have absolutely no evidence.

(11 Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.) Hebrews 11:1 NIV

That's not a sane way to treat a stroke or cancer or any other actual physical need in this life.

Back to the original observation. The "Immediately he got better" is what the anointers needed to feel was true. They need to feel that anointing is a valid act and it also can be used in this case to explain a delay in real help for Mr. Ames. "Well we didn't delay treatment. It helped long enough before we realized to call 911." Calling 911 is not at the top if the get help list COG ministers and can prove foolish if not fatal.

And the members can pray all they want. What will be will be. You can't cure aging naturally with all the associated difficulties for those who are lucky enough to even get old.

Black Ops Mikey said...

When my brother called the minister, the minister didn't even bother to offer to come and anoint him -- instead, he told my brother to go to the emergency room.

And so, dutifully, my brother took a shower, called a taxi and while waiting for the taxi, he had a massive cardiac infarction where there was a massive clot from the bicycle accident he had had some time ago when he incurred a leg injury from a hit and run driver. The clot travelled up his leg and was tremendously painful.

In the aftermath, the 'brethren' came by his apartment and asked our mother if they could have his stuff.


Richard Ames, who?

Can I have his stuff?

Steve D said...

Wouldn't an aspirin make the stroke worse if it was caused by a hemorrhage rather than a blood clot? Also, the passage in James which speak of anointing, wasn't this type of anointing a form of therapy, medical care? If so, might the passage mean seek medical care PLUS pray? I also wonder if these leaders will allow the medical community to provide for them the level of care that many in the WCG were discouraged from getting for themselves. Didn't RCM's first wife die of cancer? Did she receive any treatment for the cancer or even pain medication (beyond drinking a lot of wine)? I recall Stig Erlander, the Biology instructor at AC, Pasadena, recommending the dining hall's oatmeal and lots of wine for whatever ails you.

RSK said...

Black Ops Mikey describes an experience I had too.

Give us Ames' stuff!

Anonymous said...

Well, it's comfortingly to know that in this regard, no one is more equal than others. Everyone grows old, becomes an old fart, and dies.

Byker Bob said...

The problem is that unlike many more mainstream churches that use the hospitals and medical facilities which were originally humanitarian efforts actually started by churches, Armstrongism has placed itself on a peculiar trial with its medical doctrines, and whichever way the verdict comes down, they lose. Lets face it, there is enough empirical evidence by this point in time to "prove" that Armstrongism is not blessed with the gift of the Spirit known as "healing". But, some insist on continuing to pretend that they do!

Elvis Presley believed he had this gift, according to Red West, and would lay hands on members of his entourage, and they would pretend they had been healed.

If your church is faking the gift of healing, and you don't annoint, then impartial objective thinkers will conclude that you are faithless. If you do annoint, and things go badly, then objective thinkers will fault you for not going for a more sure shot, the health care professionals. It's like choosing between two of your checkers when you know that one of them is going to be jumped.

I believe that UCG and the COGaWa have a more realistic policy on these matters than sentencing the sick amongst themselves to death or unneccessary debillitation. They utilize professional medical care, and pray for God's blessing on the outcome. I cant fathom why the others haven't seen the light.


RSK said...

Seriously, I wonder if theres any hardcore adherents in LCG that are disturbed by Meredith and Ames going tk hospitals.

Black Ops Mikey said...

See, I've told you so.

Incompetence can lead to death.

Steve D said...

BB said: "I cant fathom why the others haven't seen the light." Perhaps HWA put himself in the same uncomfortable position as the Pope. Once he claimed to have THE TRUTH, he can't backtrack on any doctrine, lest it opens the door to other doctrines being changed and his credibility goes down the tubes. If HWA was more modest, he could have said, "It is my understanding . . . . " rather than declaring dogmatically that such and such is the truth. The church can't admit error so everyone just pretends to believe.

Hoss said...

And we are assuming that what GEW wrote is what actually happened...

Anonymous said...

HWAs home base was the protestant churches. If they believed that God always heals, well by golly, so will his church. The bible be damned. Herbie disagreed on technical issues with the protestants to a point, but when it came to what mattered on a practical level, he held hands with Kenneth Copeland and associates.
Home sweet home.

Anonymous said...

Beautifully said sniff sniff! One sure sign of cultic behavior is the Church,leader,or organization is always right.

Lake of Fire Church of God said...

Anonymous March 9, 2017 12:18 PM said, " Herbie disagreed on technical issues with the protestants to a point, but when it came to what mattered on a practical level, he held hands with Kenneth Copeland and associates."

MY COMMENT - You must be joking!

Herbert Armstrong disagreed with Protestants on technical issues??? I don't have a clue about Kenneth Copeland nor do I care, but for starters HWA labeled protestants "false Christians" with a false gospel ABOUT Christ and not the Gospel of the Kingdom of God - I don't know if this is a "technical issue". Nor was his claim that his Worldwide Church of God was the one and ONLY TRUE CHURCH and all the rest were false Churches with their false gospel - I think that was a technical issue. I don't know of any Protestant Church off hand that claims to be the one and TRUE Church - these are major "day and night" issues, not "technical issues". That was laughable!

Lake of Fire Church of God

Anonymous said...

Perhaps the church leaders had ulterior motives to delay treatment.

Anonymous said...

I see we have a lot of armchair doctors and EMTs in the house today.

Anonymous said...

Yours is a common comment in many fields. Only the big people are supposed to have opinions, and the little should keep their mouths shut. Well, the little people today are often well read, especially after Al Gore invented the internet. Since you haven't noticed, medical authorities have run ads on TV and the media over the years, telling people what to do in case of a heart attack.

Anonymous said...

I have spent as part of my self education, hundreds of hours watching every Tele evangelist shown on TV. You admit that you haven't, hence are ignorant, yet you confidently dismiss my point of view as laughable. How reasonable is that.

Yes, Herbie did substitute the kingdom of God for Christ, but many of the holy days pointed to Christ. Church members did not ignore Christ, so in that sense it was a technicality. There are many churches such as JW (which Herbie plagiarized) which also claim to be the one true church.
Read up about these churches and their church culture. It is often very similar to Herbies church. Tyranny within these churches is rampant. Look at what they say and leave out. They all feed their members milk and no spiritual meat, by design.
Do your homework. Read a few self help books, and you feel that you are in a different universe.
Kenneth Copeland in one TV program said that God was whispering into Adams hear, telling him what to name the animals. Does such unbiblical tyranny ring a bell.
As I said, on a practical level, Herbie and the protestants are very similar.

Anonymous said...

LCG headquarters in Charlotte has appointed members each Sabbath to serve on "First Aide" duty. In order to be asked to serve in this capacity one must have CPR certification. Usually it's members who have worked as life guards or they work in health care.

Rod McNair, in his infinite wisdom, has instructed everyone to never call 911 without getting his permission 1st.

So if a member were to fall to the ground with chest pain or for whatever reason, the First Aide person would have to search out Rod so that he could assess the situation PRIOR to calling 911. It's ridiculous and ignorant. I pray that in a true emergency the First Aide person would completely disregard Rod's dumb instruction and practice what they learned in CPR class (step 1: Call 911) but I fear that most care more about being obedient regardless of the risks involved.

Former WCG Member said...

In the case of Mr. Ames, common sense would dictate that the paramedics be called first, & in the minutes before their arrival, to pray for & anoint him. But common sense is uncommon, I know, especially in the churches of God...

Mal said...

Which they did after following R.Ames request for anointing