From an LCG source:
Living Church of God has been running a series of Tomorrow's World presentations in various cities from the midwest to the east coast and in Canada.
Thousands of dollars in tithe money have been spent to put on these presentations. Hall rental fees, hotel accommodations for speakers, videographers, and publicity are just a few of the expenses used in putting on these presentations.
Much like the epic failure of the UCG with their campaigns, LCG has been failing miserably.
Nashville, TN
has a population of 678,889 and attracted 20 potential money-making commodities.
Beaumont, TX
has a population of 117,585 and attracted 10 potential money-making commodities.
Calgary, Alberta
has a population of 1,214,839 and attracted 42 potential money-making commodities.
Cambridge, Ontario
has a population of 126,748 and attracted 30 potential money-making commodities.
When you read Weston's snow job below you are expected to think that is an amazing thing that so few actually attended these presentations.
There were four Tomorrow’s World Presentations last weekend. In addition to our members, we had 20 guests in Nashville, Tennessee; 10 in Beaumont, Texas; 42 in Calgary, Alberta; and 30 in Cambridge, Ontario. This Sunday we have another one scheduled for Manhattan, New York where we have invited over 5,000 guests. So far this year we have held 18 TWPs and we have a good number on the schedule for the coming months. I especially enjoyed my trip to Nashville as it gave me the opportunity to spend time with our minister and his family. Darrell Lovelady serves three congregations in addition to Nashville, which keeps him quite busy. On our return we stopped in Knoxville, Tennessee to spend a few hours with Martin Fannin, along with his wife and daughter. The Fannins also serve four congregations. Meanwhile, weeks of heavy rains have caused severe, even historic, flooding in much of the United States Midwest and South. Parts of Missouri, Arkansas, Oklahoma, Texas, and Louisiana have been especially hit hard. Please remember our members who may be in the way of this current disaster.
24 comments:
Wow! Show me another event that wouldn't be cancelled due to lack of interest over these meager numbers.
The only reason the low attendance seems impressive is that in the Armstrong community of churches the numbers for the local congregations have diminished. Adding ten or twenty members and their children to any local church would represent huge, phenomenal growth. They've become accustomed to a very low setting of the bar.
Speaking of bars, maybe they'd do better if they put up advance billboards saying, "Come have a drink with the presenters of Tomorrows World! (Free admission with a two drink minimum)"
BB
In the 70s & 80s I saw virtually no new converts come into Strongarmism. All the people there came in from GTA in the 1960s.
One time in the 1970s a new girl came along to church and around 30 old lonely bachelors started to try and glom onto to her. She disappeared after a few weeks!
The thing is, these towns can't claim that they weren't warned. God gave them an opportunity, however imperfect.
Comment was made saying: "...Much like the epic failure of the UCG with their campaigns, LCG has been failing miserably..."
All of the xcogs have their mammon and it doesn't seem to matter how that mammon is spent, but they do "keep up the appearance" of doing so much "good."
Job, once upon a time, looked for good and he waited for light:
"When I looked for good, then evil came unto me: and when I waited for light, there came darkness." Job 30:26
The United Ass., the Living group, the “name an xcog” need that mammon. The "Good News?" What's that? As if driven by another spirit, they all preach another gospel and another Jesus.
They virtually all speak their version of good news gospel and tell us about Jesus' soon, very soon, return to set up rule on earth for some Mickey Mouse Millennium, when we are told in over a dozen verses that the real Jesus Christ will be at His Father's right hand until all the enemies are subdued. And Satan is loosed at the end of that 1,000 years to mess up the globe and its inhabitants again? So much for their version of “everlasting peace.” Where was their Jesus when Satan exited that pit? Jerusalem gets messed up too! Where were Jesus and His little helpers?
So, they have another Jesus, another gospel! Oh, and those 10 kings: where are they?
Another spirit? Yes, another spirit, so their imaginations may think up more things that aren't true.
" Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?" James 4:5
For all who worship HWA, and idolize him, y'all stuck with stagnant knowledge. So many think God gave HWA everything everyone needs to know...and God never did that. All of those false prophecies have a source and it wasn't God. It was another spirit. It is very tough for these people to "grow in grace and knowledge," because they're stuck in a rut. Look up and see what HWA had to say about that spirit in James 4:5 and you won't find much. Lust and envy are not very nice fruits to have in one's lives!
Perhaps the Apostle Paul may have had something right with the following after all:
"For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him." 2 Corinthians 11:4
The heads of all of these xcogs remind me of the characters in the BBC show called something like: "Keeping Up Appearances"
So, why campaigns? Why colorful magazines? Why a tv presentations? Lots of pretenses.......they all act and appear to look real, say something real, but there is something false about the whole thing...these man-made groups with hireling ministers, many of whom left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena, and magically credentialed themselves. It only makes sense that they’re all (and it includes Flurry, Malm, Theol, etc. et al) into another gospel and another Jesus. Who wants to hear anybody’s exact date for the start of “The Great Tribulation?”
It is becoming increasingly more obvious.....none of these xcogs have much of any worthwhile fruit to boast about, and they can’t point the finger at one another b/c the fingers will all come back on them, but still they sure desire that $mammon$ coming to them and then spending it for whatever satisfies their lusts.....Yes, look up James 4:5, which was not inspired in vain. It’s real. Think about it.
Time is telling…
John
The "sweet spot" on the curve was from the mid 50s to the mid 60s for the WCG. Growth was nearly 50% a year for a 10year stretch. Indeed, it was likely GTAs voice and message that resonated with the times, a sort of Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck type figure , that was ahead of its time, and being listened to on a daily basis on radio.
Alas, the Tedster is gone, as are the demographic that he appealed to. "And all the Kings Horses, and all the Kings Men, couldn't put Humpty Dumpty together again".
Connie 7:31
I like that.
It must have been a huge disappointment to GTA that wasn't able to draw a single soul (except former wcg) people from 1978 and further.
Akin to Madonna.
For your information. That used to be a huge pop star and is now a lady at an advanced age putting nekkid pictures on her instagram to draw attention.
nck
Maybe these splinters should take a lesson from the Jehovah Witnesses. Get their members to do the witnessing and pay them with promises of reward in the Kingdom, plus a few tossed ranks and recognitions within the church.
Those Jehovahs are always well dressed when they stand on street corners or knock on your door and they do know quite a bit about the Bible.
Depending upon when HWA first knew of his son's moral failings, you could make the argument that GTA's ministry was an illusion from the very beginning. This illusion was time and date-stamped to expire the very moment that his character issues managed to make the evening news. Had there never been any allegations of sexual misconduct, GTA would have continued to be a draw. His own independent ministry was seen by outsiders not as a reform of his father's draconian system, but as something to which GTA was reduced due to his own behavior.
There was active speculation in the late '60s that GTA would start the Laodicean "era" of the church. He thing is, it never even took off with sufficient numbers to be classified as that. And then, the Tkach doctrinal corrections came along, with the splintering right on its heels, further obscuring matters. And, theough all of that, GTAs reputation was so tarnished, that he was unable to emerge as any sort of credible leader.
BB
I can report that I managed to do my business yesterday in Charlotte and get out again this morning. Phew.
Yes, a warning no one knew about. Thats not imperfect, thats just plain inept.
John
Like many posters here, you create a package deal of Herbie plus the bible. The two are in fact separate. The ten toes are in my bible, and are also taught by Tele evangelists from other denominations.
There is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
BB
If Tkach's changes were 'corrections,' why has his church been contracting non stop? According to some posts here, some of his congregations have shrunken to a handful of members.
That much seems obvious. If you were never involved with WCG and have a liking for the US-style evangelical variety of Protestantism, why would you attend GCI, when there are churches closer to your home that do it better in the first place? Unless someone just happens to like their publications, I can't think of any reason anyone would pick GCI out of the "directory" to attend. Maybe they're best described as a "halfway house" for recovering Armstrongites who want to maintain old connections.
Anon,
HWA's church contracted because the guy who replaced him was incompetent. The people left what they called Gods church to follow what their itching ears wanted to hear. End of story.
Because the idiots put new wine in the old wineskins (HWA's horrible church government style) also contaminating the corrections along the way by lying about them and forcing them down everyone's throat.
They would have been much better off disbanding WCG, disqualifying themselves as leaders, and sending the members to teachers with decades more experience in New Covenant understanding.
The ministry should all have been honest enough to walk away, as Dennis, Allen, Jim, and some of our other fellow bloggers have done. But they didn't. So the gravy train now consists of 600+ oppressive franchises of Armstrongism, lying to the people and enslaving them.
I'm going to warn you that my next statement is tongue in cheek, because if I don't, some doof-burger will most assuredly take it seriously. We here on this blog are qualifying to help Jesus straighten out the Armstrong mess in the Kingdom! This is our final training, and this is the place of safety!
BB
People alive today from the Philadelphia era of the Worldwide Church of God (1934 - 1986) have forgotten what Herbert Armstrong actually taught. The mission of the Church was to support Mr. Armstrong in preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom into all the world. Mr. Armstrong proclaimed before he died that the Gospel had been preached into all the world and Matt. 24:14 was fulfilled - and he did it! And then, the end will come!
No need for Splinters; no need for HWA wannabees; no need for LCG and UCG to have public presentations; No need for low wattage works of preaching the end time warning message; no need for Flurry to flurry around in a private jet; No need for Living University; No need for Ambassador Bible Centers; No need to milk more dumb tithe slaves other than to give these HWA wannabee leaches an income stream to live off of; no need for almost arrested for Sabbath keeping Bitter Bob Thiel and his crooked bookcase and curtains; No need for Malm and making a mountain out of a mole hill on the calendar issues; No need for tax cheat Ron Weinland other than keeping us all entertained by his latest failed prophecies and by seeing the 3 1/2 year great tribulation period judgment upon him in his prison sentence; No need for Mark Armstrong to wheel out Dead Ted periodically to keep his dad's legacy alive.
Let's face it - none of these Splinter leaders and the many scattered brethren among 700 splinters believe what Mr. Armstrong said. The work of God was completed with the life of Herbert W. Armstrong. There is no more work to be done! The Gospel was preached into all the world according to Mr. Armstrong.
And then the end shall come!
Richard
Anon 1:03 PM said, "...Like many posters here, you create a package deal of Herbie plus the bible. The two are in fact separate. The ten toes are in my bible, and are also taught by Tele evangelists from other denominations.
There is no need to throw out the baby with the bathwater..."
You are correct: we are not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Just get rid of the Junk Food prophecies that deceive us and keep one in that spiritual rut.
I personally learned to appreciate the "Milk" (Hebrews 4:12-14) received from HWA; there wasn't much strong Meat. For example, those basic doctrines mentioned in Hebrews 6:1-2 is basically Milk. HWA also said, "Don't believe me; believe your Bibles." That was a good message too, but too many still went ahead and idolized him and believed his words rather than their Bibles...especially when it came to prophetic events.
You mentioned the ten toes that are in your bible, and "...are also taught by Tele evangelists from other denominations..." What are those Tele evangelists telling you? If they, similar to HWA, teach that they must exist prior to Satan going into the bottomless pit, then you are being lied to.
Those 10 kings don't come into the prophetic picture until AFTER Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit.....and that is over 1,000 years from now. The 7 Trumpet Plagues are the wrath of the Lamb, and they occur before the 1,000 years. The 7 Vials are God's Wrath and don't occur until AFTER Satan exits that pit.
Most seem to believe those 10 toes will exist "very soon;" that is Junk Food. Well, keep looking for them. You will do so in vain, but you're welcome to do that. So many are "with you" on that. So many are still waiting for HWA's prophecies to finally come true. They worship the man and his words, rather than to believe him telling them NOT to believe him, but to believe their Bibles. So, yes, those 10 toes, like the 10 kings or 10 nations, all have their place in prophecy. Most people seem to get messed up with the timing of events.
And time will tell...hang on to that "baby!"
John
Richard
What you say is contrary to Gods nature. God loves every generation, including the new generation since Herbs death. That they would get no warning is immoral. You find this in the OT. God warned every generation, not just one.
Herb claiming that he exclusively will fulfil Math 24.14, is his tendency of self exaltation. He does this over and over in his MOA by putting down every institution except his church.
John, the body of evidence is that the 10 toes is the United states of Europe. In terms of combined numbers, economic and military power, they are almost there. This is what these other tele evangelists are teaching as well.
Richard, I beg to differ:
HWA did not teach “THE” Good News of the Kingdom of God. He taught a version of what is now known as premillennialism - an unfortunate term - previous known as ‘chiliasm’.
“[Point] 10. The throne of David will be set up in Jerusalem with Jesus Christ, the messiah of Israel, the Son of David, literally ruling upon it in His millennial kingdom (2 Sam 7:12-16; Luke 1:32-33)” (Ed Hindson & David Hocking, "Premillennialism," The Popular Encyclopedia of Bible Prophecy, Tim LaHaye and Edward E. Hindson, General Editors, (Eugene: Harvest House Publishers, 2004), p.280).
“A majority of evangelical leaders believe that Jesus Christ will return to earth and then reign with his followers for 1,000 years, a new survey shows.
“This end times theology is called premillennialism and 65 percent of surveyed evangelical leaders identify with it...
“While most of the evangelical leaders hold to a premilliennial belief – in which the 1,000-year period is one of worldwide peace and righteousness and precedes the end of the world – even within this belief system there are variations” (Audrey Barrick, Poll: What Evangelical Leaders Believe about the End Times, Christian Post Reporter, christianpost.com, March 9, 2011).
“... for many pre-millennialist Protestants on the eve of the twentieth century, the significance of Wilhelm's visit and efforts in behalf of Jews took on a biblical significance, for it seemed to promise the impending return of Christ. For example, Merkley quotes the Anglo-German missionary William Hechler (a Protestant ally of Jewish Zionist leader Theodor Herzl) as saying, just prior to the Kaiser's arrival in Palestine, "Now we await the visit of the German Emperor to the Holy Land … But maybe what we will have is the privilege of welcoming Jesus, Who has promised that He would come again … Many signs are multiplying around us, announcing the Coming in a very brief time"” (Alan C. Braddock, Painting the World's Christ: Tanner, Hybridity, and the Blood of the Holy Land, http://www.19thc-artworldwide.org/autumn_04/articles/brad_print.html).
Chiliasm/premillennialism began to make inroads as a doctrine after the end of the American Civil War; boosted by the Scofield Reference Bible of 1909.
Some twenty years before HWA was born, Andrew Fausset wrote in the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary that:
“The nations of the earth and Israel, the foremost in the flesh, shall be the subjects of the Lord and His saints. The mistake of the Chiliasts was, they restricted the kingdom to the terrestrial part. Besides this earthly glory, there shall be the heavenly glory of the saints reigning above” (A. R. Fausset, 1 Corinthians, JFB, Commentary: Critical, Experimental and Practical on the Old and New Testaments, (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans, 1993), Vol.3, p.298).
"... Soon I will return to fight against the prince of Persia, and when I go, the prince of Greece will come... No one supports me against them except Michael, your prince" (Daniel 10:20-21, NIV).
Instead of demon kings of Persia and Greece “in the heavenlies” there will be saint kings of Persia and Greece “en tois epouraniois”.
Rev 2:13 I know where you live - where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city - where Satan lives. (NIV).
Jesus Christ will not be literally living and reigning in Jerusalem, as the premillenialist believe, any more than Satan was living and reigning in Pergamum at the time of the writing of the letters of Revelation.
1:34
What an excellent boost in the level of conversation.
I really enjoy people having done some actual research in 19th/20th century development of American Christianity and know how to place HWA in the context of that greater development.
I will not comment on the content of the posting EXCEPT add that the altar of Pergamum resides in the City of Berlin nowadays. It is a beautiful and especially huge piece of art and you should see it one day if you have the chance. Except of course if it is still considered Satan's throne. Than you better not step on it or take rest by sitting on the edifice.
nck
"The body of evidence" is a popular assumption, nothing more. You'll have to be more specific. Ive noticed in recent years that more and more speculative writers are starting to link the toes to an imagined ten nations in the Middle East collaborating to destroy Israel.
John Hagee was the most promiment mainstream figure pushing the familiar "Europe Beast" brand of eschatology a couple of decades ago. While he was very secretive as to his source, hints in one of his books indicated to me that he was likely a listener of Garner Ted's in earlier years. I cannot speak for other televangelists, as I do not make a habit of watching them. Interestingly, Hagee has become a Reconstructionist in more recent years - a movement gaining significant popularity in the US, while I just don't see the Armstrongs as being advocates for that - they liked to get up on self-built pedestals and do the whiny poohpooh routine, but encouraging actual action (and risking diversion of that sweet sweet member money) doesnt seem to be something that would have been in their repetoire.
Don't shoot the messenger. I am just repeating what Mr. Armstrong taught and stating the fact that those who claim the mantle of Herbert Armstrong's authority in COG land don't even belief what the dead Apostle Armstrong himself taught.
Yes and No to HWA - It doesn't matter what this end times theology is called and that 65 percent of surveyed evangelical leaders identify with it. Mr. Armstrong taught that the Gospel of the Kingdom had not been preached since Christ's time until God raised the Philadelphia era to preach the original gospel that Christ taught and not the counterfeit gospel about Christ.
It doesn't matter what Andrew Fausset wrote in the Jamieson, Fausset and Brown commentary some twenty years before HWA was born. These people were worldly people not called out as "the very elect" Armstrong might say.
And yes, he did preach the GOOD NEWS of the coming Kingdom of God!
Anonymous 12:18 AM - I didn't say it. I just repeated what Mr. Armstrong taught.
My statement stands - none of these Splinter leaders and the many scattered brethren among 700 splinters believe what Mr. Armstrong said. The work of God was completed with the life of Herbert W. Armstrong. There is no more work to be done! The Gospel was preached into all the world according to Mr. Armstrong.
And then the end shall come!
Richard
Anonymous said…
Richard 12:19 PM of the Lake of Fire church of god said: "Don't shoot the messenger."
I don't intend to do that as you seemed to have quoted HWA's opinions accurately; however, just how accurate were HWA's opinions.
Yes, HWA taught a "Gospel of the K/G," but in a few words/sentences just what exactly is that Gospel of the K/G?
Yes, HWA did teach a "GOOD NEWS of the coming K/G," but in a few words/sentences just what exactly is that "GOOD NEWS?"
And you may repeat what HWA said until you are blue in the face, but so what? Life went on.
I would say that HWA completed whatever work God gave him to do...e.g. teach us about some "milk of the word:" God's Law, Holy Days, clean and unclean meats, etc.
You repeated HWA's words saying, "And then the end shall come!"
And come it shall, but which "end?" In a few words/sentences just what exactly is that "end?"
HWA did make mention of Joe Tkach Senior, so HWA must have believed there was "more work" to be done by somebody, that the end was still sometime yet in the future.
According to Revelation 3, Laodiceans must exist at some point or God lied to us through the John.
Was Joe Tkach Senior also given a work/job to do, different from what was given to HWA? And did it get completed with his death?
For those who idolize (worship may too strong of a word) HWA and all he spoke and wrote and want to believe every word he spoke/wrote: there must be a huge disappointment among them today. HWA has been dead since 1986! What happened to that "Gospel," that "GOOD NEWS," message? I know we are another day closer to some "end," but which one? That is 31 years ago.
Yes, Richard, if all that HWA spoke/wrote were 100% true, then yes, those 700 splinters, led virtually by numerous hirelings who left their ministerial credentials behind in Pasadena, are wasting their time and resources...doing what seems right in their own eyes, with lots of blindness and plenty of the blind leading the blind...and life still goes on! Well, they succeeded in acquiring a paycheck, but for what? Some have succeeded in acquiring a retirement, but for what? Many are looking forward to having their paychecks and retirements provided for them by others, but what “work” are any of them doing that really might be representative of something God desires them to do.
There is no sense shooting HWA. He is taking a nice dirt-nap.
No sense shooting you either! You are both messengers of something.
Perhaps a day is coming when we all learn that there really were such things as another spirit, another gospel, another Christ after all that existed, but how would one pick up on that?
Perhaps a day is coming when we all learn that "GOOD NEWS," or Gospel, and even the "end" HWA had in mind...from God's perspective were something different from what HWA preached/wrote about.
When I think about God’s work the following comes to mind:
“Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.” John 6:29
I don’t believe Jesus meant for us to believe 100% on HWA words written/spoken, but that people would believe on things relative to Jesus Christ Himself.
When I think about God’s works, the following comes immediately to mind:
“Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:18
“For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10
But those are things that God knows and gets involved with.
Obviously, something is amiss! And I'm not thinking about a bunch of males praying and hoping for a Miss. Do we need another 31 years to lapse to learn that the Gospel, GOOD NEWS, the “end” all were a reference to things that HWA never considered at all?
Time marches on, and time will tell...
John
RSK
The ten toes in Daniel 'flow' from the two legs of the statue. This flow would be physical and moral/ideological. These legs were the eastern and western legs of the Roman empire. So they cannot be some Middle East alliance (wrong religion for starters) or the 10 tribes of Israel (their roots aren't Roman), which the Jehovah Witnesses teach.
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