I have permission to repost this by its author:
My momster would never let me watch Scooby Doo... Scooby was even the focus of several sermons... it was considered "evil" because they glamorized witches, monsters, drugs, demon possession, and the occult.
Of course, as soon as I escaped, I embraced EVERYTHING the cult ever railed against.
I almost instantly became a fan of Scooby Doo!
I just had a thought - I wonder if Scooby Doo was hated so much, not because it glorified the occult, but because of the other things it taught:
Scooby Doo taught kids to question everything. It taught us that even if we were afraid, we should face those fears and keep searching for clues until we find the truth... It taught us to see through the distractions and follow the evidence to the end...and above all, it taught that all the supernatural boogeymen were just men in masks!
All those lessons go against EVERYTHING The Worldwide Cult of Herbie wanted us to think. Herbie ruled through fear, so they NEEDED us to be afraid. They wanted us to believe everything they said without ever even thinking of questioning them... They needed us to depend on them completely and not make ANY decisions without their approval... and above all, they were TERRIFIED that if we ever opened our eyes, followed all the clues and looked too close, we would see that their beloved "Modern Day Elijah" was nothing but a perverted old con, a man in a mask!!
I can almost hear the creepy old bastards voice now: "And I would have gotten away with it too... if it hadn't been for you meddling kids!"
Chester L Roberts II
50 comments:
Armstrongism always comes out against anything that is cool, trendy, or brings some moments of happiness into life. Honestly, I've wondered where the members continue to find 1940s clothing, but apparently they somehow do.
BB
It's for the same reason that ministers and their minions condemn action popcorn movies. The excuse given is the gratuitous violence. But the real reason is that it shows people putting out much effort, fighting evil. The heroes are assertive, goal oriented, and use their minds to dwarf the villain - and win. This is the opposite of what is expected of church members.
No problem solving Star Treks Jean-Luc Picard or James Bond is welcome in Herbs churches. Only Borg members are welcome and tolerated.
How about a post on the Borg. Put Herbs face on the Borg queen with the line 'we are the Borg, Lower your shields and surrender your mind. We will add your tithe money to our own. Your life will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.'
It is so odd to hear about all our different experiences. Especially on the dissident sites it is like we attended an entirely different church altogether.
Scooby Doo is one of my favorite FOT memories as we got to watch it on COLOR tv with the other kids while waiting for the talent show at our Feast site.
Admitted I wasn't allowed to watch my favorite show starring leprachauns.
Regarding BB's clothing remark. I am aware of Merediths harping against pink clothing for men. Somehow in the British churches this never got through I guess. A lot of pink ties and shirts there in wcg heighdays.
nck
How pathetic it is that WCG would condemn a TV show like that.
I don't think I ever watched an episode of Scooby-Doo, but wasn't the show about finding "supernatural" things that were actually frauds? Oh, okay, I see the problem now...
Something WCG and Southern Baptists have in common... they both just cant stand it when someone has a good time for ten minutes :)
"Scooby Doo taught kids to question everything. It taught us that even if we were afraid, we should face those fears and keep searching for clues until we find the truth... It taught us to see through the distractions and follow the evidence to the end... and above all, it taught that all the supernatural boogeymen were just men in masks! "
Perfect answer...
Or as Thomas Huxley challenged...
“Sit down before fact as a little child, be prepared to give up every preconceived notion, follow humbly wherever and to whatever abysses nature leads, or you shall learn nothing. I have only begun to learn content and peace of mind since I have resolved at all risks to do this.”
― Thomas Henry Huxley, Life and Letters of Thomas Henry Huxley - Volume 1
Here I thought that watching Rod Serling's old TWILIGHT ZONE episodes, or the show "BEWITCHED" were what led to demon possession! Nope , it was Scooby Doo!
BTW- Scooby has a message for everyone here on BANNED:
RUH-ROH!
Stray outer crults!
Ry rant underrand a ringle word any of threm are raying!!
You people need to blow the dust off your Bibles! It's time you learned the truth from God's Word! You need to know the real truth about Scooby Doo!
You need to get your complete concordance and look up the words "dog" and "dogs".
After you do a complete study from Genesis to the end of Revelation what this is really about!
God hates dogs!
Also horses.
And He hates cats so much He won't even mention them. Must be allergic.
Chester L Roberts II wrote...
“My momster would never let me watch Scooby Doo... Scooby was even the focus of several sermons... it was considered 'evil' because they glamorized witches, monsters, drugs, demon possession, and the occult.”
“Of course, as soon as I escaped, I embraced EVERYTHING the cult ever railed against.”
“I almost instantly became a fan of Scooby Doo!”
Some people appear to have been nuts even from their youth on up. They chase after witches, monsters, drugs, demon possession and the occult. They despise their own mothers who tried to keep them from evil and harm.
It is best to reject fucking hypocrites like Garner Ted Armstrong, false prophets like Flurry, Pack, Weinland, and Thiel, and other morons like Malm, without turning to witches, monsters, drugs, demon possession and the occult.
Avoid both extremes.
Understand and remember that the same demons behind raging false prophets like Flurry and Pack are also behind witches and the occult. The demons probably do not care which of these approaches works best to destroy you.
HWA's true intent is an unknown that has been hanging out there for a long time. I a not sure it is accurate to paint HWA as an intentional villain. In pragmatic terms, he was a villain. He thought what he was doing was right, perhaps. "There is a way that seemeth right unto a man..."
I recall an account of a Jewish holocaust survivor testifying Adolf Eichmann. During his testimony in Eichmann's presence, the Jew became so overwhelmed that he fell out of his chair and had to be helped up. Later he was asked why this happened. He said that he suddenly realized that Eichmann was just a man like everyone else.
HWA had opinions and he attracted other people who liked those opinions. This coalesced into a pseudo-church. And we all drank the Kool-Aid. The social characteristics of the WCG can be found in many other religious organizations. The WCG is not totally a one-off.
It is great that we now recognize the error of the WCG in theology and in social operation but I am hesitant to assign to HWA the role of Grand Archetype of Evil. As we sift through his character, I believe we have found traits that are like our own. This explains why we were attracted to the WCG in the first place.
Or we find that Herbert Armstrong was a minor Archetype of Evil, comparable to Hitler.
As it has come out that Herbert Armstrong committed incest with his daughter for 10 years in the beginning of his 'ministry', the picture is that even convicted felons would find him to be the lowest scum among them and if he had been convicted and sent to prisons, they would have probably administered 'prison justice' and killed him, because his actions made him reprehensible to even those considered to be extremely evil. If he had been convicted in Texas, he would have been executed by the state.
Enough of this "he's just a man" business. He was a psychopath. Unfortunately, we do not have his brain waves for analysis because it might well be that an analysis by those qualified experts in the field, it may well have be that just like Dr. Robert Hare's analysis of psychopaths' brain waves from prison, Herbert Armstrong may have been found not to be human at all. It's in "Without Conscience" should you want to check.
Oh sure, he was a boozing alcoholic too, but that doesn't give him a free pass.
Next thing you know, people will come out of the woodwork to claim the holocaust never happened either (well, it might not have and the counts may have been higher than reality, but it did happen).
As John Barrowman commented about his role as villain on "Arrow", "Every villain is a hero in his own mind".
And apparently in other people's mind as well, not unlike Charles Manson. Sure, Herbert Armstrong didn't commit murder so far as we know, but he shouldn't be painted as just another man just like everybody else. In fact, Herbert Armstrong, being the narcissist, would protest himself that he wasn't just another man just like everybody else.
Herbert Armstrong was an Apostle!
Black Ops Mikey said:
Sure, Herbert Armstrong didn't commit murder so far as we know
By Herbie's own standard, the religion he preached says that hatred is the equivalent of murder.
Herbie taught and practiced hatred in many ways. If you don't recognize the hate-soaked environment of Armstrongism, you must still be living inside of it. Christianity outside of Armstrong is not perfect, but it is much less hateful and much less oppressive. Even ordinary secular atheism is more loving than Armstrongism. So, yes, Herbie was a murderer.
Herbie knew that many things that he was doing were wrong. He was building the auditorium about the same time as his 1975 return of Christ claim. Meaning, he knew the date was made up. Thousands were injured by this lie. Some members told me that they lost the will to live as the date approached. Meanwhile he lived in his mansion, sipping champagne in his private plane and stayed in 5 star hotels.
He decided to strengthen his hold on church members by tearing them down. He did this with his murderous pen, attacking eg, self esteem, self confidence and competition. His ministers copied him by attacking every pro life mental trait.
He also introduced tyranny into the church, knowing all too well that it is evil and anti biblical.
He's not going to be in the kingdom. His apologists can put as much lipstick on the pig as they want, but God will give him his just desert.
Well, I do recall some negativity expressed via other members about "Scooby-Doo", but in our local congregation at the time, the sermonettes were ranting about the immorality of "E.T.".
I'm so happy to live in a state respecting the rule of law as long as nutcases like Black Ops are alive and kicking. Of course I'll defend his right to express his "opinions" although non of his sources would hold in a real court of law.
Nck
Seems to me that a particular WCG writer was responsible for much of the organizational poohpoohing routines - Clayton Steep.
nck, it isn't an opinion that Herb molested his daughter.
The truth is established by 2 or 3 witnesses:
1. his grandson
2. his brother Dwight's daughter
3. The state of Arizona at his divorce hearing
Whether HWA was "just a man" or "an archetype of evil" pivots on intent. Wile Hitler fully intended to exterminate the Jews I am not sure that HWA fully intended to impoverish his followers through a draconian and non-binding tithing system. It seem to him, my guess, like there was a theological foundation for his oppressive economics. If we knew HWA's intent, we could assign him a role. But we don't know it.
And the thing about incest I have never believed anyway. It is not supported by reliable evidence. Just biased statements by detractors with a vested interest.
Scooby Doo is nothing compared to the boys in UCG. They preach about not watching Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles on the sabbath.
pic.twitter.com/g8qecScC
Well, you know on second thought, maybe we should respect nck's efforts.
After all, he comes by to offer his ideas and takes important time off writing emails offering people millions of dollars if only they make a small investment.
3.18 PM claims that we can't know Herbs intent.
Black Ops Mikey claims Herb was motivated by selfishness.
Both would appear reasonable to me IF I was 10 years old. However being old, I know from personal experience that both are laughable. We can know peoples intent by the 'you shall know them by their fruit,' thingy. We all know this yet 3.18 PM would have us pretend otherwise. Herb was motivated by selfishness, but so are children. It goes deeper than that. The world is full of evil people, and like some animal species, they all have common traits. They are all consumed by murder. malice, cruelty, sadism, envy etc. Herb was driven by dark evil motives. His writings and behaviour tells me this. His followers sense this, which is why they put him on a pedestal. The folly of crowds.
How can people attend church services with its unsavoury members, yet claim ignorance about what motivates people? Yep, lets all pretend that evil barely exists, which is very convenient and self serving for the predatory people who prey on living tissue.
In the words of Chris Isaak, "They did a bad bad thing". And what a barn burner that song was. Raw Texas roadhouse blues! I still remember Chris and Johnny Reno playing their parts from out in the audience while Hershel was going crazy on his guitar on stage! Hot damn it, folks!
If the ACOGs knew about that particular recording, they'd ban it quicker than Scooby!
BB
Nck
A internet search shows that the Ambassador Auditorium took two years to build and opened in 1974. The articles seem to shy away from mentioning the starting date, since it obviously clashes with the supposed 1975 return of Christ.
In your 11.10 PM rant, you give no facts or line of reasoning. Just grammar nit picking, invalidation and name calling.
How did we get from humorous handwringing over "Scooby-Doo" to the incest-bearing intentions of HWA in a court of law on the same thread?
PS
During the witching burning mania that swept Europe, they burnt to death children as young as five. The last case was in about 1650. And yes, they did throw suspect witches into ponds. If they drowned, they were innocent and if they floated, they were killed as witches. Typically they used the rack to extract confessions from the accused. Tens of thousands from every walk and station of life were tortured and burnt at the stake.
Ah, the wisdom of crowds.
RSK wrote:
"How did we get from humorous handwringing over "Scooby-Doo" to the incest-bearing intentions of HWA in a court of law on the same thread?"
I have deleted the last two comments regarding all of this. It is tiresome seeing every thread get hijacked into something else almost every time by people who have their own agenda or pet peeves. I stopped the "trade" crap and will do likewise with this.
The spectre of the original prophecy of HWA that some of us grew under can't just be broken down to 1975. It involved 1972-75. The tribulation was to begin in 1972, at which time the worthy and faithful Philadelphians were to be taken to Petra. The Germans were to come, taking captive and torturing the lazy Laodeceans for 3-1/2 years, during which time a crescendo of events would be leading to Armageddon and the return of Jesus Christ in 1975.
So, "the work" was supposed to be "through in '72", but it didn't happen. In fact, although there were some disturbing ongoing trends and events, most of them still appeared resolvable, and nowhere near the catastrophic events which it became clear that HWA had misunderstood or misinterpreted in the books of Daniel and Revelation.
That was the background against which we watched the emergence of "Herbie's last erection" (auditorium). Motives are and were highly subject to interpretation that went beyond face value or what was presented officially by HWA himself.
This building could very well have been a countermeasure, a repair gesture to undue the repurcussions from the great disappointment of 1975.
BB
No2HwA I have no problem with the deleting of my postings. It just shows that you leave all the incest postings on as you seem to feel incest accusations are in some way related to the subject of Scooby Doo.
You too seem to be capable of seeing intricate relations.
You just lost 3 points of respect (in a bowl that is filled most of the time)
Nck
Good move Gary. It must be exhausting sometimes, because the quarantined weirdos are always watching to see if one of them (I'm sure they recognize each other as kindred spirits) succeeds in slipping one by. Every time that one of them does, it opens up the floodgates.
I guess we shouldn't be surprised, because the original WCG attracted bunches of finky little people who wanted to be recognized by having their own little crackpot "truths" and theories added to the official teachings of HWA, as if it wasn't bad and unbalanced enough already!
Such people didn't seek equilibrium when they left, they became worse!
BB
NCK
Actually, I deleted that post too. Now I can get everyone else mad at me too.
The subject was how the church tried to control aspects of church members lives, whether it was silly cartoon prohibitions, colors of cars and clothing to what music and movies are permissible. The church had no business delving into such territories and still has no business.
Almost all of my posts allow readers and church members to relate how similar things may have happened to them or affected them today. It is the silly tangents off into the nether regions that get tiresome and boring.
I delete very few comments, except for a couple of sexually frustrated readers who have some serious sexual identity issues, otherwise, I allow a free flow of information, unlike many of the other COG sites. Just look at how many of them allow you to comment on their postings.
Well, what can I say NO2HWA.
Keep up the good work!
(As I naively told Tkach in 1987.)
Did I say that the bowl of respect is usually full.
You added 2 points after deleting the other postings although I know you don't seek earning those points on some kind of wierd balance sheet.
nck
Owls are demonic. And reptiles, except the cute ones that don't have angry eyebrow ridges or slitted pupils. Owning these animals as pets attracts demons into your home.
You must never eat certain birds like parrots and bats, and other birds that perch with two toes in front and two in back, except for chickens that perch with three toes in front and one in back like falcons, but you can't eat falcons. And it's okay to go ahead and eat crickets, except for mole crickets because they don't jump enough.
Art is vanity, and philanthropy too, unless it's anonymous.
You can compartmentalize technical topics such as sailing into its components such as sails, rigging, anchoring, tacking etc. However when it comes to philosophy and religion, ideas are interrelated. Which is why in everyday conversion, people going off on tangents is normal human behaviour.
My point is the compartmentalisation of topics on any religious/political blog is unnatural.
No wonder people are thread hijacking when essentially the same articles on same topics appear over and over and over. How else can anyone get a word in on some other topic.
Anon @ 4:48 wrote "No wonder people are thread hijacking when essentially the same articles on same topics appear over and over and over. " Well, there is a simple solution to that. Stop reading here and making dumb comments.
Oh come on! What ever happened to common sense? If someone alludes to a certain rock song, or shares a personal experience in the middle of a thread, nobody here complains. It's the "commercials" for tin foil paranoia and weird personal beliefs that urinate people off! I mean as if we are supposed to conduct an intelligent conversation based on some of that stuff? Balance, people. Equilibrium.
BB
Most anger sites are discussing (particulars of) the church.
Every discussion on the Work (which according to Armstrongism was the very purpose of said church) is censored or framed in the word hobnobbing.
Therefore only 10 percent of armstrongism is under discussion and that mostly in a warped way.
The reason I like Gary's blog is that his intention is to expose current misdoings. As an historical or scientific record none of the blogs discuss the fly path of the GIII and how it all fits into the Cold War pattern of relation building as scolars now understand it as we see that frame collapse slowly but progressive.
Nck
Ok, but I do admit that that silly 10% mostly comprised 110% of our personal lives.
Therefore reflections on Armstrongism are so terribly warped, because they reflect personal live stories. While a reflection of the philosophy in the end should comprise the 345 days per year absence of its leader.
Nck
Of course people are going to want to discuss how it affected them and their daily lives, nck. The 90% that you seem to want to discuss and to remember as having lasting benefit was the facade that was concocted to falsely convince us that we were actually part of something important. That was the scam, the tool by which we were exploited. It doesn't matter. It is completely valueless and irrelevant.
And if you want to talk about something being warped, you have to start with the fact that Armstrongism is seriously warped, and was very effective in warping the hapless individuals who were so unfortunate as to become members.
BB
"And if you want to talk about something being warped, you have to start with the fact that Armstrongism is seriously warped"
Oh please, you haven't travelled a lot have you.
I've seen people walk a hundred miles and prostrate every 100 inches on the Rocky ground.
The Japanese celebrate war criminals in their shrines etc etc. So far the intelligent converation on religion.
In Armstrongism you got to save 10% of your income and spend it on a holiday.
And people dying of polio, I've seen it in my protestant community and I just talked to a professional international sportsperson who wasn't allowed to compete on the SUNDAY sabbath.
You are completely wrong about the facade. In nearly every communication that the organisation published including the "inspired" MOA, it was stated that what you call the facade was the very purpose of the existence of said church.
Please a facade is used to hide something. Nothing was hidden. Not even the discussions with the Philipine Army leadership and the open support of the Marcos restructuring and all other US allies during the Cold War. It is all documentend and can only be denied or censored.
Nck
BB,
a) If you are a good reader you will see that I am not some whitewasher. I said people were dying of treatable disease. I am just creating your equilibrium in the great scheme of things
b) Since I have to remain on the topic of Scooby Doo. For your information I went to school with a current Head of State. And this person was not allowed to watch television very much. Just trying to remain on topic here.
Did I tell you the story about our bus trip to Summer Educational Program. The Church rented vehicle featured Rocky 1 2 and 3 also I believe. In a way it would concur with the original posting in trying to scare the kids into submission.
nck
People in third world countries were accustomed to their deprivations, disease, totalitarian government in some cases, corruption, wife-beating, possibly different "customs" surrounding incest, etc. nck. What those world ciizens experience in their daily lives mostly falls within the median of their own standards. It constitutes, however, a marked deviation from our own.
The point is, most of us who were born and raised in the USA are accustomed to the standards and customs which present themselves in our lives here and now. You cannot justify what happened in Armstrongism by pointing to status quo in the third world or whatever it is currently politically correct to call "developing nations", and using that as some sort of standard to make HWA's "stewardship" and mission appear effective, less bad, normal, logical, or even as a rational and necessary part of international geopolitics.
Had HWA or Armstrongism never existed, the effect of their absence would be statistically negligible, except in the lives of maybe 150,000 victim/members, most of whom had their lives diminished by Armstrongism. Leaders who are bottom-feeders do occasionally attract the curiosity of other bottom-feeders, the overseers, and leaders of more powerful, more affluent or better educated classes. The head of the NYC sanitation workers union will be recognized by vote seeking politicians, just as the leader of the teachers union.
Whatever people wish to speculate about regarding HWA's international activities, those alleged activities are not of sufficient value to compensate for or to outweigh the suffering of those who were psychologically comandeered into financing them. If perhaps he had actually warned the world, leading to the return of Jesus Christ, which we were taught was the great commission, one could successfully make argumentation that the end had indeed justified the means. Most of us would probably even consider ourselves blessed and privileged to have sacrificed and to have suffered under his leadership. But, he didn't do that, either within the timeline he provided, or within the years alloted as his natural life. The net effect is that he was simply a grifter, one who profitted at the expense of the faithful, died with the most toys, and won. The arguments you have presented over the past years bespeak of a secret, second commission. And, they are not convincing, and in no way do they rehabilitate his status, worth, or reputation.
BB
Chester L Roberts II wrote...“Of course, as soon as I escaped, I embraced EVERYTHING the cult ever railed against.”
Hey, wait a minute, Chester. You escaped from the WCG just so you could become a SLAVE of some other SINS? Woohoo! Way to go, Chester, you nut.
BB,
Great response. I was wondering if I should respond with a few funnies or an annotated book since there is so much food for discussion there.
Bottomline from your perspective it is pretty much well thought out and from a religious perspective probably right.
Although I have been framed into a HWA whitewasher I have to return to my original intent of associating here.
A) Originally it was to have some fun and keep up a bit
B) Then I noticed the all pervasive depression around and started correcting in the sense that a 100.000 dollars spent on a David Niven "spectacularly rare and difficult disease", fund was a dollar well spent. Or sponsoring an Oxford chair in Chinese - Western relations had incredible foresight into what was to happen 20 years later in international relations.
Remarks like these were framed as if I were making a case for whitewashing HWA. While in reality I was giving the "little people" some value for their dollars spent.
Would these organisations exist without WCG? Has it been, considering "the end thereoff", a statistically negligible affair? Probably yes. But aren't all enterprises by the little people. I have mentioned the word "leverage" before. But perhaps I'll explain that more another day in a discussion on who the "Japanese sons" were. What their mission was in Japanese society and what the GIII fly path to Kuwait had to do with that.
Did I mention I saw Jehan Sadat the other day. A remarkable lady still. Very frank and open on what they had perceived for Egypt and the quest for peace to this day. Half British by the way. Like Queen Noor half American and the former Thai King full American citizenship. (Getting the bigger picture already.)
C) I got futher sucked in when I noticed all kind of inaccuracies. For instance on the PT site there is this funny stand up comedian lady. I have no doubt whatsoever that she is relating her personal story and the way her parents brought her up. But the information provided does in no way reflect a book like Missing Dim in Sx.
Now, having said that. How easy is it to frame me into a person who considers the writings of 1892 born person the measure of how the act should be performed. But that is not what I am saying. I said that a lot of information in personal stories do not reflect the actual dogma on such bearings. I also noticed that at least said comedian is honest enough to state that certain oft repeated allegations are "alleged." (I hope a true researcher would one day present the Ramona Papers to end all speculation on biblical characterisation of said leader.
That's all. I am not promoting the writings of a 1892 born person. I am just saying this person was born 1892 and for those interested might do some research on that period. I am also creating equilibrium when statements are made that are legally "alleged". I am teaching some on international relations during the Cold War for those who actually have some academic knowledge on for instance Carter period diplomacy and the active participation of religious leaders during that period. And mostly I am having fun when seeing clever comedy about the irony of our experience.
BTW your steering the discusion to international areas is symptomatic for the refusal to see American Society for what it really was and how it interacted with the many stories related on these blogs. For some background information and if one is up to it I would highly recommend Pan Dewey's musings for information that was hidden under the rug. But Pam's writings are not for the faint hearted or depressed. Rather for the idealists who would chasten themselves now and then with some realism.
nck
BB,
Just one more thing.
It might just be possible that I am the only person on this earth that knows of (and I will only give one example for brevity) one foundation, stating HWA and Rader as its founders, that TO THIS DAY has funded thousands of academic research projects serving mankind, nations and companies. And I am talking legitimate academic research by top rated universities.
Of course the wcg funding was stopped maybe 30 years ago already. But perhaps you can understand that to me statements that there is no lasting legacy serving mankind are stupendously wrong.
Now why wouldn't I name such foundation out here right away. I feel that some of our legacy has been stained by some splinters claiming legitimacy by hijacking such ongoing projects serving mankind.
Some splinters are even banned from Petra because of their stupidity staining our legacy. And this while even HWA said in the early eighties that he sure hoped that the place of safety would not be in Petra and that he believed it wasn't going to be, because of the terrible conditions for camping out there.
Now if he had been a legitimate prophet he would of course have foreseen the 4 and 5 star accomodations currently available.
So you see.
My opinions are just a tidbit more complex than the way I am used to be framed over the years.
nck
Whether in pretense or truth Christ is preached.
Work out your own salvation, Dude.
You seem to be on a very hurtful bandwagon, yourself. to preach your message
I am sure because you have been hurt, and felt deceived
Let it go brother, When your on your knees, things start looking up!
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