Church of God News is reporting about Rod McNair's new video that Living Church of God has posted. The Living Church of God has been having issues ever since Gerald Weston's appointment with LCG with members not giving him the respect he supposedly deserves. McNair and others have spent considerable time trying to reinforce the importance of Weston's position as one that is in direct lineage with the Apostle Peter. Apostolic succession supposedly passed from Herbert Armstrong to Rod Meredith and then to Gerald Weston. The problem is the middleman in this equation, Roderick C Meredith. Herbert Armstrong found Meredith to be unfit to be running the church. Armstrong even banished Meredith to Hawaii for a year in order to do some self-examination. It did not work. Meredith could never understand why he was in trouble. Armstrong strongly informed Meredith that he was unfit to lead, yet Meredith rebelled over and over, eventually starting two splinter groups based solely upon his self-righteous personality.
On September 8th a video by Rod McNair, ‘Peter and the Key-Man Principle’, was uploaded onto both the lcg.org and Facebook websites, and also YouTube.
In an interview with Jeff Booth in 1980, Herbert Armstrong declared:
“When Mr. Armstrong wanted to change a doctrine, he simply changed it. I think there should have been more of a deliberate process. The ministry should have been more involved in the doctrinal discussions and decisions.”
One doctrine, in particular, was a problem with Mr. Booth, and it mattered little how it had come into being. The doctrine was the so-called primacy-of-Peter teaching: that the apostle Peter was the first in a line of chief apostles from the 1st century to Mr. Armstrong. By 1980 Mr. Armstrong for several years had referred to himself as “an apostle” and “chief apostle” and even “God’s apostle.”
“In the course of the three hours and 20 minutes we discussed a number of things, one of the primary ones being the primacy of Peter,” said Mr. Booth. “Mr. Armstrong went into a discussion about having received direct revelation from God Himself of all the truth that he held and stated that he had learned nothing from any man.”
“The title, and the keys, passed from chief apostle to chief apostle, from Peter to Peter. Each chief apostle was the new Peter. He said, ‘Now I am the chief apostle, and I am the Peter’.”
“Whatever I bind is bound in heaven, and whatever I loose is loosed in heaven.” “The Day of Pentecost is now on Sunday. But, since I had made the decision to observe Pentecost on Monday, for years the Day of Pentecost was actually on Monday.”
Was the office of ‘The Peter’ passed from Herbert Armstrong to Roderick Meredith? Herbert Armstrong wrote to Roderick Meredith (later in 1980), rejecting him as a possible successor: (See below)
“Rod, in frankest candor, JESUS CHRIST will NEVER put any one at the head of His Work on earth who is competitive, covetous of power and status, and self-righteous. In brutal frankness, you lack the charisma to lead God's work. You do not attract - as I said before, you REPEL people. You are a harsh taskmaster over those under you. THAT IS YOUR RECORD!”
How then can the ‘Peter Principle’ pass the title and the keys’ to Gerald Weston - giving him the power to bind and loosen biblical doctrine?
Because Rod Meredith was an illegitimate church leader, due to his own self-appointment, Gerald Weston is not a legitimate church leader any more than Almost-ordained Bob Thiel is. If you want to go even further back in time, Herbert Armstrong was an illegitimate church leader too because he too rebelled and set himself up as a church leader.
March 14, 1980, Letter from Herbert Armstrong to Rod Meredith:
WORLDWIDE CHURCH OF GOD WORLD HEADQUARTERSPASADENA, CALIFORNIA 91123
HERBERT W. ARMSTRONG Tucson, March 14, 1980
President and Pastor
Dear Rod:
Your letters of February 1 and March 7 show, I am sorry to say, that either you still cannot understand WHY the living Head of God's Church, Jesus Christ, had you sent to Hawaii, or you are unwilling to see or admit — and I prefer to believe the former.
There is no point in telling you this letter is written in LOVE for YOU — for you ought to know that without my saying it. But out of love for you, and DESIRE to see you back as PART OF GOD'S TEAM, working in full co-operation and right attitude with the rest o[f] us; I shall take time and space to make it clear once for all this time.
I have tried to hold the mirror up for you to see yourself as others see you. But still you don't see in that mirror the same YOU that others see-or are unwilling — I hope not the latter. But now I must be SURE! I shall speak plainly, candidly. If this letter hurts, I quote from a letter the Apostle Paul sent to brethren at Corinth: "For though I made you angry with a letter, I do not repent... for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season. Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance, for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
"For godly sorry worketh repentance to salvation ... but the sorrow of the world worketh death." (II Cor. 7:8-10).
Now I'm going to come with plainness of speech as Paul said — in I Corinthians 2.
To overseas audiences, and to Kings, Emperors, Presidents and Prime Ministers, I simmer down the WAY OF GOD and the WAY OF THE WORLD in two very small words — "GET" and "GIVE." This world is geared to the way of "GET." That is the way of VANITY, SELF-centeredness, coveting, lust and greed, jealousy and envy, rebellion against authority, competition which leads to strife, violence and war. The way of "GIVE" is OUT-flowing LOVE, harmonious co-operation, serving, helping, sharing, giving.
In spiritual PRINCIPLE, the latter is the way of God's Law, the Ten Commandments-the former the way of Satan. I tell them that ALL the Unsolvable problems, troubles and evils in the world are caused by the fact the world lives by the "GET" principle.
Rod, WHY have so many who have worked [with you] said that you rub the fur the [w]rong way? You are DOCTRINALLY correct., But in II Corinthians Paul says we are not to live by the strict letter of the Law, but by the SPIRIT or obvious INTENT — the basic PRINCIPLE of it (II Cor. 3:6). You are a model of doctrinal correctness according to the LETTER — the strictness of the letter — but you do overlook the SPIRIT from the heart. You won the mile in a state high-school meet, You had know[n,] as Satan injects into us all from childhood, the spirit of competition. You b[e]came a COMPETITOR. In conversion you learned and accepted the strictness of the letter of God's Commandments. You wrote a good booklet on the Ten Commandments. But now I hold the mirror up for you to see in yourself what SO MANY who know you well see in you — the SPIRIT of COMPETITION is still there!
You are not going to like this, Rod. Members of your family will resent it. But I am the chosen apostle of Jesus Christ and in His name, I have to say these things to you, for I want to have you with us IN GOD'S KINGDOM — and there will be no contentions — no spirit of competition there! No one is going to be there who strives for himself to take over the CHIEF SEAT!
Jesus Christ through me elevated you to the chief seat (which you had come to me suggestin[g] over the ministry of God's Church in what we then called CAD, you were a harsh task-master over the ministers. You, yourself, find it difficult and perhaps impossible to TAKE what you dished out. Dozens of ministers would testify to that. You rubbed the fur the wrong way! That has been your life-style!
In a sense, though I approved it at the time, you came to me [(]when Raymond Cole was trying to administer CAD from Eugene,[)] to jerk the rug out from under Raymond-and he feels that to this day. I knew, as did you, that CAD could not be handled from Eugene, and I approved your suggestion and put you in the driver's seat over the ministers of the Church when it was not yet so big.
When you were made second Vice President, it became a standing joke among leaders at Pasadena, the saying, "Well, after all, I am the second Vice President."
Jesus said, "And whosoever of you will be chiefest, shall be servant of all. For even th[e] Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister" (Mark 10:44-45). Jesus said further, "Beware of the scribes which wear long robes, ...and [love] the highest seats in the synagogue, and the chief rooms (offices-ranks-positions), at feasts" (Luke 20:46). Rod, am I qualified to call to your attention, these things? I came into the ministry more than fifty years ago, back in Oregon. I was never a member of the Church of God, Seventh Day, headquartered at Stanberry, Missouri. The church of Dugger and Dodd at Salem, W. Virginia, was an off-shoot, and, like Ted's present "church". Ray Cole's, and other's, NOT the true Church of God. However, I never became a member of the Salem offshoot. Half of the Oregon brethren (while all were in Stanberry) had incorporated as a separate church, "The Oregon Conference." I was ordained by them. Twice I was paid by them-about four months at $20 a week, and 15 mon[n]ths later, from February to July, 1933, at $3 per week.
But I did CO-OPERATE with the Stanberry people, from 1927 until ordained by the Oregon Conference, June, 1931-without salary, I co-operated with the Salem people after the start of the present Worldwide Church Of God (then called the Radio Church of God), and WITHOUT RECEIVING FROM THEM A PENNY OF FINANCIAL SUPPORT in any way, from 1934 (after both the World [T]omorrow radio program was going, and The PLAIN TRUTH was being published) until August, 1937. And after that, while building the present Church of God, Philadelphia era, I co-operated at my own expense with the Stanberry (Sardis era) people until October, 1945.
I DID NOT, as Ted claims (he was 5 years old when I ceased the co-operation with them because of the pressure of the Work in the present Church of God). I did not leave them to start something of my own. I continued working with them-GIVING, not getting-at my own exp[e]nse co-operating — GIVING — as long as my time allowed.
But the point I want to make is this: I SERVED — I HELPED — I co-operated. And I did not have or seek any high position. I always considered myself, just as the Sardis ministers did, that I was the LEAST of the ministers-the TAIL-ENDER!
When I conductedFirbute school house (36 seats) in 1933, I stopped receiving even the $3 per week salary from the Oregon Conference.
As the tail-end LEAST of the ministers, Christ started me in that little 36-seat school house, I constantly suffered persecution-first from Stanberry ministers, then again from Salem, W. Va.-ministers, then again from Stanberry. The 19 members we had from that Firbutte campaign was the START of the present Worldwide Church of God. The brethren at the start were my own converts-my own children in the Lord. NEVER in all my ministerial experience, I once sought a higher position.
Jesus Christ gave me the Pastor position at the start. The Church grew, as I held other campaigns in Eugen[e] and in Alvadore. Finally I appointed and ordained two other elders, one a preaching elder and one a local elder, at Eugene, beside two deacons. In those early years of this, our present Church, I served as pastor of a Stanberry church near Jefferson, Oregon. There I appoin[t]ed and ordained two elders, and two deacons — for THEIR church. All the time I "GAVE" — I did not "GET." Before that I had learned how Paul says, in II Corinthians 3:6, that we must obey the SPIRIT or obvious INTENT of the Law, not the letter. I had dedicated my life to "GIVE" and not to "GET." As the Work grew, Christ used me in founding Ambassador College. After their graduation I ordained m[y] son Dick, Raymond Cole, Herman Hoeh, Raymon[d] Mc Nair and his brother. From there you know the history, Your uncle and yourself came along about next, then others. I ne[v]er sought or moved up to a higher rank or office. Jesus Christ raised up the Church through me. I came to the position I hold as the simple result of what the living Head of this Church raised up through me.
But others have sought higher Position. There has been, it seems, NO END of worldly POLITICS at Pasadena Headquarters. As Christ blessed and prospered God's Church and Work, and we came to have better than $100,000,000 of net worth, and a near $80 million a year income, there devel[o]ped a mad scramble for ever higher and higher rank. Sure, I made some mistakes. I naively TRUSTED men like Al Portune, David Antion, my own son, Wayne Cole, many others no longer with us. But now, f[o]r the first time since about 1967, there is HARMONY and a spirit of Co-oper[a]tion at Pasadena. AND I AM DETERMINED TO KEEP IT THAT WAY!
Now back to you.
You have demonstrated, as seen clearly by many others, a spirit of rank-consciousness. In plain language that is coveting higher authority. I do not think you have coveted more money. I do not think more money is what Ted, Al Portune, Dave Antion, Ray Cole, Wayne or others really coveted. They coveted POWER — more authority — like a 15-year old boy coveting the POWER of a steering wheel and a throttle. We have gone through a House CLEANING. We now have PEACE and CO-OPERATION at Pasadena. And eight to ten others on the executive level there have voiced to me their fears and convictions that if you now come back to Pasadena, that PEACE, and HARMONY, and CO-OPERATION will be turned once again into constant contention, irritation, and HARM TO GOD'S WORK! I do not like to tell you this. I haven't mentioned this to all, but to those I mentioned your return, that is the unanimous feeling.
If I have you come back as Dean of the Faculty, several say you would delegate most or the real duties of the Dean, and devote yourself to trying to make yourself the LEADER and boss of the College, and even of the Chur[ch.] You have — and all are aware of it — been possessed with the idea that I will not live much longer, and that YOU are the "FIRST among equals" to take my place.
Rod, in frankest candor, JESUS CHRIST will NEVER put any one at the head of His Work on earth who is competitive, covetous of power and status, and [self-righteous]. In brutal frankness, you lack the charisma to lead God's work You do not attract-as I said before, you REP[EL-] people. You are a harsh taskmaster over those under you. THAT IS YOUR RECORD!
When I wrote you [] that a change of ATTITUDE is needed, perhaps I have at last made myself clear.
You have said that you only said a few statements you probably should not have made, but you didn't think you had said enough to warrant this six months' leave of absence. Rod, I'm very well aware of the amount of words you said against Christ's chosen apostle. But Jesus said, "of the abundance of the heart (attitude) the mouth speaketh." What you did say, affirmed to me by two witnesses, was sufficient, coupled with many other things, to show me the [a]ttitude back of those words. You try to c[o]nvince me of how glowingly and how numerous were the times you have shown loyalty by the things you have said "hundreds" or "thousands of times". But in this regard your attitude reflected [] OMISSION rather than the sparse and sparing things you did say. Ted was leading a conspiracy to destroy my credibility before the ministers and the brethren by saying nothing about me — as if the human leader did not exist — and blowing himself up. Radio and TV programs went under his name-no longer The World [T}omorrow. He even started correspondence under HIS OWN [Letter head] NAME, rather than that of the Church or College. Now I do not want any of our ministers flattering me, or trying to see how often they can mention my name.
But neither do I want it deliberately AVOIDED in both speaking and writing, as if I did not exist. Jesus Christ — NOT MAN — has made me the human leader under Christ. A leader cannot be a leader if all under him IGNORE his very existence. I never did want anyone to go out of his way deliberately to mention me — as you profess to have done. That is not what I mean. But I do not want the other extreme, caused by a competitive feeling, and deliberate non-mention.
Now another thing you cover in your letters. You imply that in what few things you did say, you were FOLLOWING MY ORDERS. Rod, that is hypocrisy. It is not a matter that I CHANGED MY MIND. Let me tell you how it [ac]tually was. When I told you and Raymond, and perhaps another or two, that IF I were no longer among the living, I wanted you to be su[re] Ted did not slip in and take over. At that time, I had heard SO MUCH talk about my dying right away, perhaps started by Ted, that for a while I was overly conscious of it.
It is not that later I changed my mind. But as time went on I began to realize very deeply that God has not prepared ANYONE to take my place. You, Rod, could never take it. I know that is 100% contrary to your own estimate of yourse[l]f. You have a WILL to lead, but not the qualifications. I came to realize that God raise[d] me [from the dead-f]rom total heart failure-in August, 1977, FOR A PURPOSE.
I have felt like the Apostle Paul, when he said earlier in life it would be more profitable for him to depart this life — and in the next split-second of consciousness, be with Christ in the resurrection, but it was more needful that he stay.
I did not CHANGE my mind. I did come to realize, as God caused me to realize, that He had raised me up as His instrument to raise up His present Church and Work — and that Work is not finished. So after my heart had completely stopped, my breath — no pulse — no blood-pressure — by mouth-to-mouth resuscitation I was br[o]ught back. I have not said I now believe God will keep me alive until Christ comes. I have said and I say now again, I do believe He will keep me alive AS LONG AS HE NEEDS ME!
You have taken the attitude that "some one GOT [you]." No one did but your own self.
I have tried here to make clear what I mean by a CHANGE OF ATTITUDE. I sincerely hope you "get the message" this time. Self-pity is not your need. A change of ATTITUDE from "GET" to "GIVE" is! If this letter does not get through to you, I shall not try again. So far you have not admitted a wrong attitude. Your RIGHTEOUSNESS you have maintained! But it has been only so much "filthy rags" to GOD! God said-rather, Christ to His disciples, that he who would seek the top seat should be the SERVANT of all. We should be as a little child.
So far, four months or more of your leave of absence has profited you NOTHING! Rod, in a candor, HAVE YOU EVER REALY REPENTED? To repent means much more than being sorry, or remorseful. It means a CHANGE OF HEART — a CHANGE OF ATTITUDE — a CHANGE FROM "GET" TO "GIVE." From competition, vanity, coveting power and position, to harmonious co-operation. BELIEVE ME, there is PEACE, and HARMONY at Pasadena now. Our men there do not want it disturbed. I have held up the mirror with BRUTAL frankness-in LOVE not only for you but also for GOD'S WORK! The Work is getting along wonderfully well now-without you. It can go on growing and pleasing Jesus Chris[t] an[d] prospering under His blessing WITHOUT YOU. I have written you are not coming back until I am CONVINCED BY THE FRUITS of a real REPENTANCE, and CHANGE OF ATTITUDE. I hope at last I have MADE IT PLAIN.
In deep LOVE as a father to a son,
In Jesus' name.
Herbert W. Armstrong
President and Pastor
58 comments:
This post is an excellent public service spot for any current LCG members who visit us. It's also a refresher for the rest of us.
What actually gives people legitimacy? On planet Earth, it is generally their followers, the people who believe in them, and look to them. Unfortunately, there is no definitive validation beyond that. So, you have collectors of people, all claiming to be the real deal, based on their followers. It's why we read not too long ago, as one of Ron Weinland's elders admonished PKG members not to be disrespectful of "God's Apostle" (he was referring to Weinland).
HWA chose Joe Tkach. Regardless as to how any of us feel about that, it was a real chop to all of those who ended up inventing their own titles and credentials, and claiming to be the annointed ones. The problem is, when there is a shipwreck, the passengers cling to anything that looks like it will keep them afloat. But all of the floating pieces will never be a ship, and whoever commandeers those pieces will never be the captain.
BB
I found it hard to read Herbs commie rant which he deceitfully dresses up in the religious garb of give and get. Herb first smears self interest and profit with selfishness and greed, then does the same with competition. When the issue of the chief seat came up, Christ did not condemn this desire. All He said was that the chief seat must be earned, ie the chief seat belongs to the chief giver.
Smartphones are getting cheaper and better. The reason? Competition. Suppliers co operate with their customers. The reason? Competition. I get excellent service at fast food restaurants. The reason? Competition. Competition is good.
This vilification of profit and competition is the wolf talking to the lambs. It's the trailer park losers rigging the rules, since they can't succeed and win honestly.
Herbie did a brilliant thing. He picked a successor who lacked the capacity to surpass him, ensuring his place as the "hero" of his movement who would never be eclipsed.
HWA could have chosen any of several other men who would have continued his movement and adapted it to the present, much as HWA had done with the then-ossified CG7. Instead, in Tkach he chose a bumbling mediocrity who stalled and then destroyed WCG, even as CG7 grew and adapted and did all the things a "Philadelphia" church is supposed to do in HWA's church era scheme.
HWA chose to preserve his legacy instead of his church. This should tell us a great deal about the man.
“Whatever I bind is bound in heaven, and whatever I loose is loosed in heaven.” “The Day of Pentecost is now on Sunday. But, since I had made the decision to observe Pentecost on Monday, for years the Day of Pentecost was actually on Monday.”
Wow. Herb was more powerful than Jesus who said he came only to keep his father's commandments.
This vilification of profit and competition is the wolf talking to the lambs,
Nice try Satan.
"HWA could have chosen any of several other men..."
Did he really choose Tkach, or did they do that over his dead body and pretend it was his decision? Originally he said, in a sermon sent to all the churches, that if he died, the counsel of elders would chose one of themselves to replace him.
all these groups claim to carry on HWA's work. Yet in this letter, he said, "It is not that later I changed my mind. But as time went on I began to realize very deeply that God has not prepared ANYONE to take my place." Mr. Thiel, Pack, Weston, and everyone else, you are not HWA's successor. It would be better to think about dodo birds, passenger pigeons, and dinosaurs. You have a lot more in common with those extinct creatures.
So what do I have to egregiously do, so that I may be "punished" with a paid banishment to Hawaii! ??
HWA does live on today in world news!
The latest North Korean missile launched by nut case Kim is called the...
HWA SONG - 10 !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwasong-10
Yes, this post is a timely, and one may say prophetic, warning for LCG members.
...giving him the power to bind and loosen biblical doctrine?
If Gerald Weston claims he has the "binding and loosing" authority, it doesn't, in Biblical context, give him super powers that one may imagine. Binding and loosing simply refers to making authoritative judgements based on Law.
The "seat of Moses" was a seat of judgement - back in Exodus 18, Moses is making judgements on applications of the Law, and his father-in-law tells him to create a hierarchy to lessen his burden.
So, if anyone says they have the sole authority of "binding and loosing", that means they reserve the right to deal with every case of what is permissible within the Law, and resolving every petty squabble between church members. Stuff ministers already do...
The thing is, when Joe Tkach was chosen, did anyone other than GTA voice shock? I remember John Trechak commenting that Joseph W. Tkach was not known for his extensive knowledge of the Bible. But there was no initial revolt amongst the palace guard. By the time the doctrines began to be corrected, Tkach had already apparently consolidated his power. As I recall, Meredith was hobbled by the Leona McNair libel suit, and entered the fray belatedly, and only after WCG picked up the tab. By that time, PCG and UCG had already gotten the jump. None of the influential old guard had gone with Flurry. Most of the well-known and sought-after went with UCG. Meredith ended up with his own band of semi-loyalists. Splintering took off in the larger groups almost immediately.
It would be difficult for an objective outsider to identify a clear winner, the person or group that had a mandate and the mantle. Basically, what you saw unfold was a popularity contest. A personality cult that had been held together by its leader's temper became numerous personality cults, some allegedly based on preservation, others based on limited reform. All called themselves "God's Church", and their leaders "God's Ministers".
BB
2:45 PM
Have a look around you.
Are the preachers of anti-competition competitive. Yes/no?
Are the preachers of give, getters or givers?
In case you didn't notice, Herb lived in a mansion, and used gold and silver dinnerware.
This at a time when church members couldn't afford to get their teeth fixed.
Does that sound like a giver???
Isn't it a bit of an exercise in futility to talk about the "legitimate" successor to a usurper (HWA)?
Competition is either win-lose or lose-lose. Co-operation is win-win.
Whether or not Herb lived what he preached is a moot point.
Herbie was a taker, but he had to preach a good talk or he would not have fooled anyone.
HWA to RCM is just one deluded egomaniac to another:
I mean come on now, this stuff is over the top in self-importance:
"But I am the chosen apostle of Jesus Christ and in His name, I have to say these things to you"
“Whatever I bind is bound in heaven, and whatever I loose is loosed in heaven.”
"But, since I had made the decision to observe Pentecost on Monday, for years the Day of Pentecost was actually on Monday."
By the way, HWA wrote this:
"I have written you are not coming back until I am CONVINCED BY THE FRUITS of a real REPENTANCE, and CHANGE OF ATTITUDE."
Since RCM was firmly back in the saddle at Pasadena when I was in college in the '80s, what happened next, did he "repent"?
Anyone known the "rest of the story" to that?
"Competition is either win-lose or lose-lose. Co-operation is win-win."
You are smearing competition with theft. Competition Vs co-operation is a false dichotomy. Rather, competition results in co-operation. The please your customers thingy.
Contrary to what you assert, car makers, smartphone manufacturers etc do not harm others by putting out a better product.
Honest competition is win-win. There are no losers.
Which is better, the post office or FedEx?
At any rate, God gave you your hour in the sun with communism (1917-1991), and it failed.
Why not move to your paradise in Cuba or North Korea comrade?
I first learned of the "Peter Principle" when I was in business school long before I was sucked into the WCG vortex...
It simply stated that "people rise to their highest level of incompetence before being terminated"...
Sounds standard for any WCG "minister"....
let me get this straight: armstrong wrong, except where it concerns meredith, right?
People can repent of specific sins, Michael, and maybe change the odd bad habit or two, but at best they can only mask or mute their deep-seated pathologies during times when they are under the scrutiny of an authority figure. Rod Meredith's behavior was written in his dna, a
basic part of his personality and his character. As such, it's something that he was most likely incapable of elliminating. In other words, the Rod you knew if he was still first year Bible prof was pretty much the Rod who just passed away. Need proof?
One word: Scarborough
BB
"I get excellent service at fast food restaurants."
That is ok if you are speaking with a "body fat ratio" that is fine. I cannot see it from here!
If not. You are being had by the same theories your are ignorantly spouting while clotting you're arteries.
But hey. You might just look great. I leave it up to your consciousness and won't mention the Guatamalan rainforest cut for the consumption of your precious cheap meat! (emphasis on cheap not meat) My point. Most and probably you too are not paying the full price from an economic perspective.
10:23
"let me get this straight: armstrong wrong, except where it concerns meredith, right?"
I like how you noticed that!
I'm not in favor of having a blind pope ruling a 100 million company. However from the letter it seems he took advice from more than one person and was not afraid to correct long time friends, even if the punishment was sending one of to an exotic island where they have the obnoxious habit of wiggling their hips and kiss with touching ones nose (which is not mandated by the book "Missing dimension in Sex".) One could loose eternal salvation on such island if one would not focus on trade, dangerous.
nck
7.46 PM
PS Contrary to what you imply, competition and co-operation are not 'free floating concepts.' There are concepts above and concepts below both, which you ignore.
Byker Bob, that wasn't what I was actually asking...
HWA declared he wouldn't be allowed back unless he 'repented' (which I assume means grovel at his feet)
Since he was obviously allowed back in a high position at Pasadena, did he, like, have to give some public red-faced apology or something?
Doesn't sound like something the old Rodder would do...
So I just wonder how he managed to return to being a big-wig at HQ by the time I arrived.
10.12 PM
I question applying the Peter principle to the ministers. The Peter Principle happens when for instance, a competent car mechanic is made the boss of the car workshop. What is now required is people skills, something the mechanic lacks.
With the ministers, they were not qualified from the very beginning.
True Bread -
I read the Peter Principle, Up the Organization, The One-minute Manager, and so on when they were bestsellers. When explaining the Peter Principle, I used to give a similar type of quotation as you, "people rise to their highest level of incompetence before being terminated". I was often questioned about "highest".
Strictly speaking, the general Peter Principle was stated more like, In a hierarchy, every employee tends to rise to his level of incompetence. The problem was that they were generally not terminated, but allowed to continued to perform their duties, incompetently.
HWA tended to use Reorganization of his ministers, and I remember from Up the Organization the quote attributed to (but unlikely written by) Petronius Arbiter: Reorganizing is a wonderful method for creating the illusion of progress while actually producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
He did initially say that. It was later that he had a letter sent out (dictated to Mr. Dean) naming Tkach as successor and attended a Council meeting to verify his decision.
Why he opted to take the decision away from the Council is a matter of conjecture. Dean said it was because he didnt want them to choose Meredith.
BB, 5:55 PM caught my attention when you remembered: "...John Trechak commenting that Joseph W. Tkach was not known for his extensive knowledge of the Bible. But there was no initial revolt amongst the palace guard..."
No initial revolt? That appears true. I know of a sermon on God's Government, Part 2, given about 1997, approximately 20 years ago now, which seemed to say something very similar to what you wrote. FWIIW, here is a partial transcript of that sermon:
******
"...When we have come to the beginning of the 7 eras of God’s Church, you can pretty well go through the very sparse history of God’s Church in the history books. But the little bit that we can gain from here and there: there was always one leader, wasn’t there? To whatever group, or whatever stage, within that era of the Church, God does things in order!
He doesn’t do things in confusion.
That’s why we see the governments of the world all in confusion. It’s because there isn’t one being led by God. It’s all kinds of people being led by Satan, and that’s what we see in these other groups as well. It just isn’t working.
So, out of the hirelings who stood up and said: well, now, I wasn’t going to go into this, but I’ll go into this. The ministry who left the Worldwide Church of God, and I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have departed from there, but the ones who did all thought they had something better to offer!
They all thought that God fell down on the job. They really did. They let Joe Tkach, Senior run this thing and he ran it into the ground within ten years and they all, really when you get down to it: they have to blame God a little bit for this; don’t they?
We’re the only ones who aren’t blaming God for it. We saw this unfold and we saw God’s hand in it, and so you step back and you watch. You watch God’s hand!
You don’t go out on a little “hissy-fit,” and start your own church, because God was too stupid to remove one man and put them in charge, because that’s what it’s all about, isn’t it?
They wanted to keep the Worldwide Church intact and they didn’t like it that they were ruffled up! They had to leave, so they went out and started their own. That’s really what they did.
They didn’t do it through God’s Spirit. They did it through their own physical, satanic, thinking...They weren’t patient. They had to do it. They had to do “God’s Work.” Well, I’m telling you that God is big enough to do His own work, but they didn’t think so. They had to do it!...
...So, when we see the 7 Churches, there was always one in charge at a time. God did His Work through Joe Tkach, Senior, and He fulfilled that purpose of what He wanted to and then the man was removed, wasn’t he? You know, he can: I know Joe from way back in 1957 when they came into the Church. His family and our family all grew up together. His parents lived a long, long life! I believe they were both well in their nineties when they died and Joe should have been the same, but God cut his life short, because his work was done. Obviously, look at it! His work was done!
That’s why I say that I can love him, and always did and never fought him. I didn’t agree with it, and would not agree with it, but I didn’t fight him!...
...we would have been just like all of the congregation of Israel when they stood up against Moses! Do you know what? God would have had to kill us! That was His thinking but God, in His mercy and through His Holy Spirit, just kept everyone’s mouth shut, didn’t He? Thank God that He is the One running it!..."
******
I'm glad we didn't end up like Korah and all of those famous princes back in the days of ancient physical Israel around the time of Moses/Aaron!!! A bunch of man-made associations and organizations have formed since the time of Joe Tkach senior, and lots of splintering of splinters among them.
But, as you know, BB, time and life have continued on since 1997, and we've still not quite "seen" the conclusion of the whole matter, but time will tell...
John
I think this is a interesting point.
There is a screeching note of irony in all of this. I regard RM to be not only what HWA characterized him to be, a problem child, but rather the fully mature paradigm of the Armstrongist leader. There are literary subtexts here that come out of Mary Shelly's novel. The system creates the quintessential model leader and the leader wreaks havoc and has to be exiled.
I think of how many Armstrongist ministers I have encountered who have elements of RM's behavior in their pastoral approach. Some of the little leaders were actually worse than RM. I recall one minister at AC BS who condemned RM for the fact that no healings were taking place in the WWCG. He claimed that RM relied on doctors to fix his detached retina instead of relying on God. For this reason, the faith to be healed was undermined among the lay membership.
HWA, in his cited letter, upbraids RM as not being able to understand his own personal issues. But it was HWA that did not understand - he did not understand that to a great degree RM was his creation and fairly well reflected what Armstrongism is about.
Instead of producing someone like Jesus, Armstrongist process produced RM.
Near_Earth_Object
Nobody is 100% right, and nobody is 100% wrong. Statistical impossibility. That's why HWA and his lackeys claimed that God backed their authority when they were wrong. As we know today, their wrongness was much more pronounced than what we find in the general population.
BB
Ok, Michael, I'll spell it out for you. He gave HWA the appearance of having changed, and apparently it was satisfying enough for reinstatement. Since GTA had done this same thing, initially fooling HWA, you could make the case that HWA was easily fooled. Plently of people turned in a convincing facade to fool the old man. In Rod's case, his managerial style with his "own" church demonstrates that he never really changed.
BB
Peter: pe·ter (pÄ“′tÉ™r)
intr.v. pe·tered, pe·ter·ing
1. To diminish slowly and come to an end. Often used with out: Their enthusiasm soon petered out.
2. Slang for a man's sex organ
8.28 AM
I agree with your point. Both Herb and RM were wolves in sheep clothing, but RM failed to play by the unstated 'predatory rules.' Rules such as 'don't kill the goose that lays the golden eggs,' or don't exploit to the point of being overly destructive, or don't muscle in on other wolves territory.
I've observed this with ordinary church bullies. They are protected by the ministers, and only pulled up if they go 'too far.'
Perhaps the church should put out a booklet called 'rules of exploiting and bullying your victims.'
Cmon, nothing is ever THAT one-dimensional, 10:23.
Michael: Meredith did not make any public apology. He came back and was put in position as if nothing had ever happened. Just like Dave Pack getting moved from church area to church area without ever being reprimanded.
Byker Bob and NO2HWA:
I see. So we can assume he had some private meeting with HWA, did the appropriate groveling, said the right words, fooled old Herb and that's how he got back to Pasadena.
What some people won't do for power...
I remember when HWA and the entire church denounced the primacy of Peter. Then, that fascistic doctrine sneaked in because it backed up the mafia-style setup in the church.
Allen C. Dexter
The last thing Moses said to Koran was "Well Korah...with ideas like that ..really big things are opening up for you"
Michael, he may have even fooled himself into thinking he had overcome the pathology. Stranger things have happened. Time seems to indicate that basically, Rod the leopard could not change his spots. This is why major companies screen the wrong people out through batteries of tests. Some stuff is in your dna. Dennis even suggested these tests for the entire ministry to his superiors, and for obvious reasons got shot down.
BB
Speaking of things from Jewish antiquity, isn't tomorrow the day that people are supposed to go over to Hannah's to have some roast hash?
BB
major companies screen the wrong people out through batteries of tests
In the early 1970s I was one of the guinea pigs when my employer was assessing a battery of tests. When I mentioned this to the minister I was counseling with, he said he had to undergo screening through a battery of tests before being made a ministerial assistant.
So I wonder if the testing process was used selectively, was short-lived, or only applied to new candidates to the ministry?
Competition leads to lies and dirty tricks. Competition leads to cheating and killing. Competition makes the rich richer and the poor poorer. Competition leads to nuclear war. Competition will destroy us.
Where is the hard evidence that anything Aaron Dean said is true? All this stuff that supposedly happened behind closed doors is not verifiable. The new leaders were a pack of liars. Nobody should take their word for anything. Dean even admitted he put words in Herb's mouth in Herb's final letter, which was not written in his usual style. Most likely Herb didn't write a single word of it.
When I was made a ministerial assistant back in 1960, no tests were involved. I was just told to go and to get to New York as soon as possible. Had to break the lease on my apartment, pack up and take off. I still resent the fact that I couldn't swing by to visit my parents in North Dakota. That was Meredith's decree. They weren't part of the church at that time, so they didn't matter.
Allen C. Dexter
Byker Bob asks ...isn't tomorrow the day that people are supposed to go over to Hannah's to have some roast hash?
For Rosh Hoshanah, the main feature is honey-dipped apples. And you can watch Bob Thiel blow his own horn for the occasion.
Later in the sermon Bob says he’s called a false prophet because he’s lumped in with all the other false prophets, and claims, “I’m yet to make a false prophecy”. That may be so, but I feel a number of his predictions are potentially false prophecies.
The problem, Hoss, is that Bob Thiel's "prophecy" is simply the old HWAcaca left to an open timeline. Even if it never comes to pass before he dies, technically it wasn't false, just always yet to come.
He's got some limitations, though. If the Olivet discourse actually links the rebirth of Israel to the baby boomer generation, in ten to fifteen years, most of us will be gone. And then there's climate change and the Holocene Extinction. So, even if he doesn't impose his own timeline on God, there are at least two implied timelines. He's going down, just like the rest of them. It'll just require a bit more time to become obvious.
BB
That's the problem, aside from the fact that Helge did revise the WCG bylaws to allow HWA to legally pick his successor, all you have are statements by Dean, Apartian, et al. The only real sifting process available is to look for the common points in their statements.
As for the "final letter", it itself has a postscript of "I have had to dictate this letter, due to lack of strength to type it."
Plus, note that all Tkach really had to his credit at the time was that he was part of Administration. Without some sort of known backing from HWA in his corner, the splits likely would have occurred sooner than they did.
Yes Person of Interest all the ministry are Peters and Dicks
Meredith wanted the chief seat. He was too competitive. Competition is toxic. Now it's Pack who is the ego-maniac wanting the chief seat. The competitive spirit is destructive. Herbie started out wanting to be someone important. He had the competitive spirit. Look at all the harm it did.
I still resent the fact that I couldn't swing by to visit my parents in North Dakota. That was Meredith's decree. They weren't part of the church at that time, so they didn't matter.
That's because the Christian church is a split from the master cult: Judaism. In Judaism, Gentiles are nothing. They were supposed to be eradicated: men, women, and children. Even animals were sometimes wiped out. Your parents were spiritual Gentiles. The church was the spiritual Jews. The same attitude prevails today in many Jews around the world. Gentiles are to be used and abused. They have no soul. They can be lied to and cheated at will, hence the Jewish reputation for cheating people. The church cheated you out of your family, then claimed THEY were your family. Hogwash.
As for the "final letter", it itself has a postscript of "I have had to dictate this letter, due to lack of strength to type it."
I recant of all I ever said. -- Herb.
P.S. Due my premature departure from this earth, I am dictating this post. Ya believe me don't ya?
The only real sifting process available is to look for the common points in their statements.
Whatever the liars could agree on.
When they dont like each other, that helps somewhat. But again, unless all those HQ suits were the most naive men imaginable, HWA must have backed Tkach to them in some fashion - otherwise theyd have appealed to the bylaws that previously stated otherwise. "This guys got no authority, the C of E is supposed to pick!" It was the late revision that allowed Tkach's appt in the first place.
Unless, of course, you really think that all these men who served HWA so long just magically decided to go along with "usurper" Tkach as of late Jan 1986.
12:33
My personal reading is that Stanley Rader until 2002 received 200.000 dollars per annum, was a consultant to wcg, tkach was raders puppet since the receivership debacle, tkach son officiated at raders funeral, after 1994 raders investment, the auditorium lease's last installment, was paid off, being the exact moment tkach ordered the shift to protestantism finishing wcg as it were.
As it were Rader was a failed investor in the entertainment industry (raiders of lost ark debacle). (and wcg media empire can be ranked as such). Son's very often follow in their fathers footsteps. It is telling that raders son is a very succesful investor in the entertainment industry having had wcg financial controllers on his board until today.
Even more telling is that Robert Kuhn is one of the largest investors in the chinese entertainment industry. Wise stewards know what sways "upcoming middle classes".
BtW Robert Kuhn after his departure was a consultant between Israeli and Japanese high technology firms. That is either a remarkable step from being an "assistant to an evanagelist" to a "high technology consultant" or just being consistent from his career paired with HWA hobknobbing between the elites of Japan and Israel.
This was either a gross strategic miscalculation in garnering new market share among a larger audience or it was just that the mission of wcg was over after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1992 and HWA's mission as a diplomat on "soft diplomacy" for the 8th economic power in the world (the State of California and the Los Angeles Chamber of Commerce specifically) had ended.
nck
btw:
In HWA's perception, banishment to Hawai would be a real punishment and correction for a friend.
HWA's entire life is based upon being in the center in the middle of where it happens. From early age on he talked to decision makers doing the real deal, from the small business owners till the bankers from Chicago. At the end of his life he was seated next to the Secretary General of the UN after having talked to more decision makers than Henry Kissinger. (to give credit to Henry Kissinger, he is a demi God for "POLICY makers.)
Any banishment away from Pasadena would constitute "hell" for HWA and equivalent of being master of Tatooine in the Kingdom of God. Only to us ordinary folks Hawai constitutes heaven or a lifelong award as sales incentive.
nck
In many ways, nck, we can't know how people really feel. When you are having a conversation with a colleague, he or she could be projecting the valence of someone they see as being stronger, like a mentor or personal guru. People recite their programming regularly, for approval in case someone "important" is listening, or might have gossip shared with them about certain conversations. There are those who simply articulate a corporate edict or point of view. There are conservative radio dittoheads running to and fro all over the face of the earth. In so many cases, the "real" person conceals himself, or is weak and remains in the background.
Probably the most important facet of Rod Meredith's life was HWA's approval. Exile, banishment, separation from HWA, being outside of his good graces, would be the most extreme punishment that could possibly be administered to Meredith, whether the geographic site had been the slums of East St. Louis, or a gated community in Hawaii. Christians believe that separation from God is the worst form of punishment known to man, and Rod, in his Herbolatry, suffered a counterfeit "type" of this punishment in Hawaii. The punishment takes place in the mind, regardless of the physical surroundings.
BB
BB
I agree. I believe we can safely assume that Hawai indeed was a form of punishment for wcg corporates even if we would gladly trade our airmiles for such venue or work the extra mile.
Nck
Post a Comment