Exposing the underbelly of Armstrongism in all of its wacky glory! Nothing you read here is made up. What you read here is the up to date face of Herbert W Armstrong's legacy. It's the gritty and dirty behind the scenes look at Armstrongism as you have never seen it before!
With all the new crazy self-appointed Chief Overseers, Apostles, Prophets, Pharisees, legalists, and outright liars leading various Churches of God today, it is important to hold these agents of deception accountable.
Herbert Armstrong's Tangled Web of Corrupt Leaders
Interest in Armstrongism is on the wane. It peaked in the early 2,000's as everyone began to ponder the meanings of the Tkach corrections. The movement is dead at this point, as prophesied by Gamaliel.
Like many print publications, they are obsolete in terms of being a viable business operation. Free internet access to news and information was the dagger to the heart of such operations.
However, it does now crown "BANNED" as now the HQ of COG news and information.
I never subscribed, but read the issues partially on here. I was mainly interested in obituaries and news about people I once knew and was close to. The articles were of no interest to me. As more and more of us "old timers" go the way of all flesh, that publication becomes more and more irrelevant. Armstrongism will possibly never completely die out, but it will never again have any major clout on the religious scene. That ship sailed a long time ago and is taking on more water every day as it continues the inexorable process of sinking.
Hmmm. Nobody seems to be picking up on this. Maybe that's a further indicator of the state of relevance. We've consumed nearly 18% of the "new" century of the "new" millennium. This should be of great concern to the people within the Armstrong movement because their basic prophecy mold has continued to fail, the greying trend has certainly not reversed itself, and it's very difficult to maintain the intense sense of urgency amongst older people which you might find in young people who have yet to live their entire lives, raise their families, believe they are on an imminent event horizon, and feel the need to prepare, to warn, to modify their behavior in order to save themselves and their young children.
People are on to Armstrongism. As Pastor Ian Boyne pointed out in the F/T address he shared with us, prospective members can Google the various groups, and in a few mouse clicks, discover the truth about "our" founders. Leaders of milder groups such as UCG discover that prospective members are content to attend without actually being baptized. I haven't interviewed any of these people to familiarize myself with their reasoning, but baptism is one of those commitments which is perceived as "forever". It also signifies that you have accepted church authority. Once baptized, in an authoritarian church, there is perhaps the ultimate leverage that you must do as they say. A parallel phenomenon that UCG leaders probably do not notice is that many of the baptized members of their church had withdrawn emotionally years or perhaps decades ago. The new attendees see this, and are informed by it. Many long term members are probably even ambivalent as to whether people sitting in front of them or next to them actually commit to baptism.
People "in the world" are no longer motivated by existential threats. There have been too many of them for far too long. Our society conducted air raid drills and had civil defense radio stations clearly marked on all AM radios sold while our parents or grandparents were picking up on HWA's and GTA's warning messages. It is quite a different environment today. How many actually can't sleep tonight because they are in intense fear of North Korea, worry about melting glaciers, the submerging of islands, or the disappearance of entire species? Those things no longer rise to the level of a universal and intense human need ripe for a religious solution brought to you allegedly by the people who will sometime in the near future be the new leaders.
So, what is actually in store for the near future? Will one or more of the untalented but relatively "clean" kooks we witness suddenly develop skills they obviously lack today and come into prominence? Doubtful. Highly doubtful. Will the whole scene started by HWA go away? Will it encyst or hibernate, to later awaken in response to future stimuli? All of those options defy what Armstrongism in equating itself with various passages in the Bible, has taught about itself. This is why we have observed in the past that Armstrongism, without the knowledge of its membership, was time and date stamped for a particular era of humanity, an era which has long since expired. There has not even been a truly audible Armstrong-style "warning" for 3-4 decades at this point. If something dire happens in the near future, it will most likely differ radically from the Armstrong mold, and the advance bad news will come from scientists, climatologists, the center for disease control, economists, those who prep, package, and handle world leaders, or an event might be so sudden and so widespread in its devastation, that advance notice is completely useless. That, amigos, is the plain truth!
I remember over twenty years ago when ministers would tell brethren that The Journal was only for the ordained ministry to subscribe to and NOT to be read by mere brethren. Thankfully many took no notice and subscribed.
I can imagine some teacher decades from now studying the bible and arriving at many of the same conclusions that HWA shared with us, and yet who will have never heard of any Armstrong preacher. And then I can imagine one of his followers calling this new teacher an apostle and writing an essay connecting HWA to the new guy through an unbroken chain of ordainations.
The ads are probably the sum-total of some of the ad-takers' outreach and evangelism. When the Journal ceases publication, them thar kooks won't have any outlet.
The journal has been a clearing house for such things as a comprehensive listing of all the feast sites. Information is also included that would assist people in splinter surfing. When the Journal goes dark, unless another neutral information site surfaces there are many intangible ways in which the greater movement will suffer. The work of CEM is already slated for change or takeover so we could be witnessing an accelerated downward spiral in Armstrongism in the next year.
Most of us would probably be quite surprised at the sheer number of hours and financial resources that Dixon and his wife have put into the journal. You can't really equate a personal ministry with a hobby, but there are certainly many far more pleasurable ways to spend one's time than to publish a church newspaper. There are probably some out there who held hope that the Journal would have a role in reuniting the splinters. The differences in key areas of belief, the inflammatory statements that some of the splinter leaders have made about one another, and the extreme vanity that comes into play with Armstrongian authority have rendered reunification impossible. The movement will die before that ever happens.
As long as people read the bible there will be people disgruntled with ideas taught by mainstream.
As a matter of fact the bible exactly lists the "world conditions" for renewed interest in apocalyptic messianic preaching. Many books deal with the Anabaptists, Messianism, Eschatology etc.
It was very clear from "the history of the true church" that there is an UNBROKEN chain of ideas in that regard even preceding Christianity through the Essenes.
I do not recall WCG ever claiming an unbroken chain of laying of hands. I do remember "church eras" though.
That idea comes from the people who have since become protestant and are likening WCG to catholic thinking.
Armstrongism may have been time stamped but among every religion are people "endeavoring" to something "better than is...
I am bettin on the next Hping W Akching if somehow china's economy is a 1929 bubble.
But perhaps not. Armstrongism might be a function of Western "linear" philosophy.
The idea, that there must be a beginning and an end.
Although, as Hoeh recognized the basic tenets are philosophically Asiatic,circular, regenerative, through "time cycle" thinking or broken "eras".
No one seems to wonder why Thai monks respected HWA so much. (perhaps filtered through the Hoeh lense)
That's because the basic premiss on blogs like this or American thinking in general is that everyone can be bought with presents.
And that it is impossible for the great philosophies to be likened to Armstrongism, because (many) individuals didnt like their upbringing as compared to their peers.
On a serious note. My observation is both based in scientific research as always and observation I made in US church attendance when the First Gulf War started. Churches were/are filled in times of trouble. The current extremism in the US evangelical community is a direct result of the ongoing war/and rumors of war since 2001. It is no wonder that many of the tenets of Armstrongism are now MAINSTREAM since White America is getting more insecure by the minute through cultural relativism.
Byker Bob on November 4, 2017 at 12:21 PM said...“How many actually can't sleep tonight because they are in intense fear of North Korea, worry about melting glaciers, the submerging of islands, or the disappearance of entire species?”
Trump will take care of little rocket mouse in North Korea. Trump will do what needs to be done, and will not lose any sleep over it.
Glaciers have always been melting on the edges while rebuilding in the interior. This is a good, natural cycle. Not a problem.
Islands are not submerging. If the ocean level really were rising, it would be noticeable everywhere, not just on one tiny, little, unknown, mythical island in someone's overactive imagination.
Nobody even knows what a species is. Also, lots of dodos are still alive right here. The number of species of annoying little insects should be reduced.
I'll answer criticism of 1:12 in advance. We spend the better part of twenty years, dissecting and exposing the flaws, iconsistencies, and evils of Armstrongism, in so many thousands of words proving that it is a bastard, defective philosophy which does not deserve to stand amongst other of the world's great philosophies, because it does not work and always ruins lives, and nck attributes our conclusion to blindness because we didn't care for our upbringing. Unbelievable!
I used to think that perhaps the "k" stood for Kuhn. But it appears that it might in fact have stood for Kitchen instead. Armstrong archivists could indeed also have the archives of HWA's travels in addition to all of the written materials. We see a common mentality. It just took him a year or more to finally show his true colors.
"My observation is both based in scientific research as always..."
OMFG! What a joke!
Trafficks nonstop in conspiracy theories...then claims all his "observations" are based in scientific research...
Just about every claim you've ever made here has been from off of "the grid" of where actual data exists to make scientific inquiry possible. Nearly all of it has been conjecture, innuendo, speculation, guesswork, and fantasy fueled by the intellectually bankrupt epistemology that religion inculcates into the gullible, that if something is merely possible then therefore, it must be probable. But you don't even state it in the terms that every alien conspiracy documentary ever made does, with the old "Is it possible that..." Nope, you state things that nobody, including yourself has ever known to be true, as though they are things that everyone has always known to be true. You state them like they're facts, when they're nothing but trash. Sensational trash, but garbage nonetheless.
Then you say this trash is based in "scientific research"?
When have you ever even provided a reliable, credible, source?
The loss of The Journal is a significant blow to the Armstrongist movement. The newspaper was a point of confluence for the many splinter groups. It was an open forum for information that possessed some legitimacy. Armstrongists would never give credence to the many blogs such as this one but they would look at The Journal to see what other splinter groups are doing.
Armstrongist leaders, if they remain true to HWA's practices, must look with hot anger and high anxiety on any free flow of information. They believe that they should have autocratic control over information because that is the tool for shaping people's minds. But The Journal, my guess, had some level of acceptance among these scattered little groups - likely because the Armstrongist leadership understood that their congregations were going to read it anyway. Because The Journal had a broader influence that than any local church rag, it fostered a common vision or sense of interdependence among Armstrongist groups. It was a kind of faux unity.
But now with The Journal's discontinuance, I expect to see Armstrongist groups become more extreme, more isolated, more truculent and more idiosyncratic. This veering away, I think, will be accompanied by dwindling numbers. Their products will simply become odder and less marketable. A web replacement might help - depends on how it is transitioned.
Good analysis, NEO @5:53. The ACOGs didn't feel threatened for the most part by the Journal. Dixon didn't attack them. We may have thought some of the ads were really from the tin foil set, but the fact that they were published and not attacked demonstrates an even-handedness that even the extreme groups would have respected.
Ok 98% is from credibl easily traceable source. And I have offered many times to offer sources if asked specifically.
Your reply is standard. Criticism without asking a specific question.
In this specific case I talked about the filled churches during gulf war one an the rising christian extremism in evangelical circles over a 20 year period and the fact that many of their broadcasts use templates and pictures of the "beast" that once were confined to armstrongism and mainstream ideas now.
I really dont care of you choose to negate what I write without asking questions to Mr google, me or your local librarian.
Look at BB s reply to what I wrote. It is complete fiction that I reduced his work to a failed childhood.
I do however just noe and then release scientific information that his was not uncommon in a certain time period.
As was the spanking of mature women in 1950 america. It is not Armstrongism causing that.
I guess no one will look up the statistics of my "spanking" claim. It is way easier to blame me.
Everything I write is really easy to find.
For instance your ridiculous railing against hwa writing an article that hitler could be alive. (although he didnt think so)
Just last week the cia released files that they send out fact finding missions for that purpose until 1955.
Crying for sources. Man get some help at your local library for digital search.
Even this thread is a monument to how you all do your research.
Talking about the demise of the journal while in fact in the article it is stated that website will be put up.
Indeed I do pick up on the facts presented without providing the source that is true. But if asked I would provide the link to Dixons announcement on banned.
As a matter of fact I do believe in practice what you preach. So let me than pose a question.
Could you please provide material where hwa claimed that an unbroken line of apostolic ordinations from the time of Christ was a prerequisite for cog leadership?
If the answer is: well it was implied, or one could deduct that etc etc like you constructed the Armstrong was a prophet nonsense, I might aswe copy paste 2:31 posting in response.
I should point out that our former poster Velvet Delorey once engaged in a letters-to-editor war against some ministurd in the Journal. I forget the exact specifics in the exchange now.
I see you are getting a couple of facts straight. I don't fault anyone for not being part of "the world tomorrow" as established through BI, or not looking up further when I do name relevant names, connections, data.
I am really sorry to have since 2000 only partially enlightened alumni on the boards for reason of getting blasted by their myopicness.
As Panama papers or Paradise papers are now revealed to the general public many will be more aware of what HWA was talking about when he spoke of "a world held captive". I don't blame anyone for not knowing what the real/my world is like and believing some quasi religious philosophy that Satan is somehow ruling this world. It is very frustrating to live in my shadow world and have my former church peers to whom ALL had been revealed relegate it to the world of conspiracy, while at the office we deal with it every day.
My thesis stands that HWA had revealed ALL of the workings of the BI establishments.
I just love your analysis of the archives. Indeed. That is all one needs to do as I have stated 25 times. Just connect the flight path of the GII to the world that is slowly being revealed to the general public, connect the names, countries, commodities, Islands, tax havens etc etc with the data as revealed in the "1/3 of prophecy and " blessed nations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Papers
I know you thesis. That HWA's influence on all of this was null and void.
That is as stupid an argument as all the journalist have investigating the 10 Russian stake in Twitter and Facebook and other media venues. They too are investigating as to what kind of influence the Russians might have had on these companies.
Again. Of course that influence is close to zero. Just as HWA's influence on policy was close to zero. It is a classic case of not being able to see a forrest because of all the trees in front of you.
What matters concerning the Russian investment in those companies is not the controlling stake, but ONLY, that these organisations had a viable option to come to fruition for future use and of course in the process make a buck.
Now for those who might in the future want to solve this picturee. Again connect the entire flight path of the GII to the olygarchic rulership of this world as revealed to various investigations in their proper context of the 1960-1970-1980 period and a picture will start to emerge.
One more clue. If I would ask a wcg historian for the most powerful person of the 19th century. Within seconds they will name Queen Victoria, as probably most people on this blog will. This poster who calls my investigation "off the grid". I don't fault that person for not knowing about MY world, so that he might not realize that Victoria in reality had to ask permission for her marriage to the HEAD of her family, the richest man of the world ruling the entire central Africa.
Now it was Stanley Rader who wrote a book exonerating an important member of this family in blatant defiance of Winston Churchill's opinion. This family prominently featured in HWA's work and they loved HWA very much. He could stay the night in their place any time. For instance just before meeting Nakasone only 15 minutes before this leader of the 2nd economic power of the world had to go into important OECD talks in Paris.
Just now and then I ask questions, to show those calling me a narcissist that I am only human. For instance I once asked the question as to why Stanley Rader would take a regular flight to Paris just 2 hours before the GII would take off to Paris. Logical people would say just sleep in and take the GII. My mum would say. He would have prepared for Mr Armstrongs arrival as a loyal servant and make up the beds in Hotel Louis XVI.
I can only pose my own theory on such illogical behaviour and leave the dogs to virtually shred me to pieces. What is verifiable is that in many articles lauding HWA's return to Pasadena after an "important" trip overseas in the byline it is stated. "Mr Rader had to drop off early in Washington for conducting business".........
Whatever became of Mr. Gotoh. It seems like an unfinished story. Do you have any information on his whereabouts, demise, accomplishments etc in his post WCG life?
When Mr. Gotoh was in our Ambassador Club, he had a very thick accent, and was extremely difficult to understand in his speeches. One time, something he said totally got by me, until later on a friend in the dorm was openly wondering about how much Mr. Gotoh actually knew about the church and its teachings. What he had said in his speech was "Please pray for Christian missionaries". The WCG did not have missionaries. He was referring to those officially known in church circles as "Christians falsely so-called".
I gradually formed the opinion that Sam Gotoh was a plant, somebody that someone higher up wanted at Ambassador College, and for whom there were plans. Later, when he began travelling around the world with HWA, I was not terribly surprised.
On the other hand, I was surprised, not because of talents involved, but because of comments I had heard from HWA in his sermons, that Mr. Rader, and Dr. Kuhn came into prominence. HWA had been stating for years that he had never met a converted Jew! There were numerous Jewish people in local congregations, and students at Ambassador College. Even my mom commented that she felt so badly for one of the church ladies who was Jewish, that she had to hear such a thing at the Feast of Tabernacles. There was not just racial prejudice towards "gentile" people in WCG. There was also anti-semitism, at least until there were prominent Jews in positions of leadership in the WCG.
Confusing if our recognized resident investigating journalist should ask questions on enigmatic mysterious key personel.
To be honest I should just answer. No. But how boring would that be after the “jewel incident.” This question is taking us back to a time when BB was gassed by his bean eating dorm mates while the future secretary of technology of Japan or daughters of Malaysian prime ministers were diligently studying their English lessons at ACollege.
There are several options in answering your question.
Option a: The facts My research has only led me to documents in the Japanese language that I have not taken the time to translate. There is however, on the most obvious social media platform, a young Gotoh person displaying some insignificant interest in Armstrong. Perhaps this “son” or grandson could enlighten us how a simple “cabdriver” rose to prominence in an american “cult” opening many a door in the Asian theatre. After some mistakes common to ordinary people rising to sudden prominence, he was left gardening a small plot of land in some outskirt. Sounds reasonable?
Option b: Japanese Culture On a “non related” academic level. Research in that direction could lead one on a journey and study of Japanese (political) culture. How companies and organizations work with frontmen. The importance of being able to introduce influential people within closed circles of society. Japanese shame after WWII. Struggling to face the rest of the world and interact on a diplomatic level. When you study the public and released minutes of Japanese diplomacy it is interesting to note how the Japanese Israeli relationship froze on diplomatic level after the 1967 war and taking of Arab land. Japan being 100% energy dependent on Arab oil was under huge pressure to condemn Israel. At the same time we see our WCG open an “Oriental institute” in Japan where Japanese interest in Israeli culture and archeology can be displayed without political connotations. Under the sponsorship of their highest leadership and AC digs in Israel are sponsored while maintaining diplomatic pressure on Israel to maintain good relations with the Arab world, (also through combined Japanese – Syrian digs under the sponsorship of AC.) It is also interesting to put a name on “HWA’s japanese sons”, and see how they were related to Japan’s leading families. Most rising to prominence later on.
Option c: Satisfying the conspiracy buffs When I researched the money flow related to the First Gulf war I noticed that the USA was actually not losing any money on that costly war. (I am not implying in any way that the USA was in it to make money, as F16 sales to Saudi Arabia following that war are not under discussion.) The Gulf War one money flow just showed that financing of that struggle was secured by Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Europe and for an extremely high percentage Japan. It was only then that I was reminded of the GII fly path carrying “the sons of the sun” from Tokyo to Kuwait (oil). Or tours of duty from Tokyo to South Africa (nuclear). Tokyo to South America. (Trade, mirroring the Chinese at present.) I cannot see how these facts in any way can be considered as apologetics for HWA. Since it was very clear from HWA’s interactions with people outside the church that he really believed what he preached, he couldn’t stop blathering about religion and beast powers, where some of our toes might cringe in interaction with “outsiders”. As shown in a painting in the NY UN building, perhaps others in his party were more aware that for the “construction” of order through the intricate weaving of a web (as in drawing lines following the flight path) it would be convenient to take a ride on the back of a spider who was just trying to do what he does best.
38 comments:
Interest in Armstrongism is on the wane. It peaked in the early 2,000's as everyone began to ponder the meanings of the Tkach corrections. The movement is dead at this point, as prophesied by Gamaliel.
BB
Like many print publications, they are obsolete in terms of being a viable business operation. Free internet access to news and information was the dagger to the heart of such operations.
However, it does now crown "BANNED" as now the HQ of COG news and information.
I never subscribed, but read the issues partially on here. I was mainly interested in obituaries and news about people I once knew and was close to. The articles were of no interest to me. As more and more of us "old timers" go the way of all flesh, that publication becomes more and more irrelevant. Armstrongism will possibly never completely die out, but it will never again have any major clout on the religious scene. That ship sailed a long time ago and is taking on more water every day as it continues the inexorable process of sinking.
You woukd think all the crackpot advertising would be enough to keep it afloat. Maybe hes just run out of material to compile.
Hmmm. Nobody seems to be picking up on this. Maybe that's a further indicator of the state of relevance. We've consumed nearly 18% of the "new" century of the "new" millennium. This should be of great concern to the people within the Armstrong movement because their basic prophecy mold has continued to fail, the greying trend has certainly not reversed itself, and it's very difficult to maintain the intense sense of urgency amongst older people which you might find in young people who have yet to live their entire lives, raise their families, believe they are on an imminent event horizon, and feel the need to prepare, to warn, to modify their behavior in order to save themselves and their young children.
People are on to Armstrongism. As Pastor Ian Boyne pointed out in the F/T address he shared with us, prospective members can Google the various groups, and in a few mouse clicks, discover the truth about "our" founders. Leaders of milder groups such as UCG discover that prospective members are content to attend without actually being baptized. I haven't interviewed any of these people to familiarize myself with their reasoning, but baptism is one of those commitments which is perceived as "forever". It also signifies that you have accepted church authority. Once baptized, in an authoritarian church, there is perhaps the ultimate leverage that you must do as they say. A parallel phenomenon that UCG leaders probably do not notice is that many of the baptized members of their church had withdrawn emotionally years or perhaps decades ago. The new attendees see this, and are informed by it. Many long term members are probably even ambivalent as to whether people sitting in front of them or next to them actually commit to baptism.
People "in the world" are no longer motivated by existential threats. There have been too many of them for far too long. Our society conducted air raid drills and had civil defense radio stations clearly marked on all AM radios sold while our parents or grandparents were picking up on HWA's and GTA's warning messages. It is quite a different environment today. How many actually can't sleep tonight because they are in intense fear of North Korea, worry about melting glaciers, the submerging of islands, or the disappearance of entire species? Those things no longer rise to the level of a universal and intense human need ripe for a religious solution brought to you allegedly by the people who will sometime in the near future be the new leaders.
So, what is actually in store for the near future? Will one or more of the untalented but relatively "clean" kooks we witness suddenly develop skills they obviously lack today and come into prominence? Doubtful. Highly doubtful. Will the whole scene started by HWA go away? Will it encyst or hibernate, to later awaken in response to future stimuli? All of those options defy what Armstrongism in equating itself with various passages in the Bible, has taught about itself. This is why we have observed in the past that Armstrongism, without the knowledge of its membership, was time and date stamped for a particular era of humanity, an era which has long since expired. There has not even been a truly audible Armstrong-style "warning" for 3-4 decades at this point. If something dire happens in the near future, it will most likely differ radically from the Armstrong mold, and the advance bad news will come from scientists, climatologists, the center for disease control, economists, those who prep, package, and handle world leaders, or an event might be so sudden and so widespread in its devastation, that advance notice is completely useless. That, amigos, is the plain truth!
BB
I remember over twenty years ago when ministers would tell brethren that The Journal was only for the ordained ministry to subscribe to and NOT to be read by mere brethren.
Thankfully many took no notice and subscribed.
I can imagine some teacher decades from now studying the bible and arriving at many of the same conclusions that HWA shared with us, and yet who will have never heard of any Armstrong preacher. And then I can imagine one of his followers calling this new teacher an apostle and writing an essay connecting HWA to the new guy through an unbroken chain of ordainations.
Hah! That's funnier than the ministers' rear ends! Demonstrates the power of suppository thinking!
The ads are probably the sum-total of some of the ad-takers' outreach and evangelism. When the Journal ceases publication, them thar kooks won't have any outlet.
The journal has been a clearing house for such things as a comprehensive listing of all the feast sites. Information is also included that would assist people in splinter surfing. When the Journal goes dark, unless another neutral information site surfaces there are many intangible ways in which the greater movement will suffer. The work of CEM is already slated for change or takeover so we could be witnessing an accelerated downward spiral in Armstrongism in the next year.
Most of us would probably be quite surprised at the sheer number of hours and financial resources that Dixon and his wife have put into the journal. You can't really equate a personal ministry with a hobby, but there are certainly many far more pleasurable ways to spend one's time than to publish a church newspaper. There are probably some out there who held hope that the Journal would have a role in reuniting the splinters. The differences in key areas of belief, the inflammatory statements that some of the splinter leaders have made about one another, and the extreme vanity that comes into play with Armstrongian authority have rendered reunification impossible. The movement will die before that ever happens.
BB
Byker Bob said...
The movement is dead at this point, as prophesied by Gamaliel.
If I follow Gamaliel's logic..
Christianity must be false as it's a shrinking % of pop.
And Islam must be superior, as it's outgrowing Christians.
True Gordon,
As long as people read the bible there will be people disgruntled with ideas taught by mainstream.
As a matter of fact the bible exactly lists the "world conditions" for renewed interest in apocalyptic messianic preaching. Many books deal with the Anabaptists, Messianism, Eschatology etc.
It was very clear from "the history of the true church" that there is an UNBROKEN chain of ideas in that regard even preceding Christianity through the Essenes.
I do not recall WCG ever claiming an unbroken chain of laying of hands. I do remember "church eras" though.
That idea comes from the people who have since become protestant and are likening WCG to catholic thinking.
Nck
Oops,I forgot to mention my favorite Savonarola.
Armstrongism may have been time stamped but among every religion are people "endeavoring" to something "better than is...
I am bettin on the next Hping W Akching if somehow china's economy is a 1929 bubble.
But perhaps not. Armstrongism might be a function of Western "linear" philosophy.
The idea, that there must be a beginning and an end.
Although, as Hoeh recognized the basic tenets are philosophically Asiatic,circular, regenerative, through "time cycle" thinking or broken "eras".
No one seems to wonder why Thai monks respected HWA so much. (perhaps filtered through the Hoeh lense)
That's because the basic premiss on blogs like this or American thinking in general is that everyone can be bought with presents.
And that it is impossible for the great philosophies to be likened to Armstrongism, because (many) individuals didnt like their upbringing as compared to their peers.
Nck
Sorry to break this to you, nck, but you are a real dck.
BB
1:12
I wouldn't argue about that. Could be true.
The truth is hard to swallow I know.
nck
Look BB,
On a serious note.
My observation is both based in scientific research as always and observation I made in US church attendance when the First Gulf War started. Churches were/are filled in times of trouble. The current extremism in the US evangelical community is a direct result of the ongoing war/and rumors of war since 2001.
It is no wonder that many of the tenets of Armstrongism are now MAINSTREAM since White America is getting more insecure by the minute through cultural relativism.
I'm not saying I like it. Just observing.
nck
Byker Bob on November 4, 2017 at 12:21 PM said...“How many actually can't sleep tonight because they are in intense fear of North Korea, worry about melting glaciers, the submerging of islands, or the disappearance of entire species?”
Trump will take care of little rocket mouse in North Korea. Trump will do what needs to be done, and will not lose any sleep over it.
Glaciers have always been melting on the edges while rebuilding in the interior. This is a good, natural cycle. Not a problem.
Islands are not submerging. If the ocean level really were rising, it would be noticeable everywhere, not just on one tiny, little, unknown, mythical island in someone's overactive imagination.
Nobody even knows what a species is. Also, lots of dodos are still alive right here. The number of species of annoying little insects should be reduced.
Good night!
Apparently , The Journal, will still maintain some type of online existence.
SING ALONG TIME! - Sing to the tune "The Cover of the Rolling Stone" Dr. Hook and the Medicine Band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ux3-a9RE1Q
Ive read all kinds of swill that gives C-O-G thrills
But the thrill I've never known...
Is the thrill that'll gitcha when you get your picture...
On the cover of The Jouuuurnal!
(The Journal) ...Wanna my picture on the cover...
(The Journal..) Wanna buy five copies for my mother...(Yeah)...
(The Journal...) Wanna see my smilin face!...
On the cover of the The Jouuuurnal!
I never figured out why it was a subscription publication, and yet available on the new for free....
Totally agree BB....nck is a dck, except you left out the one letter that he always focuses on...
I'll answer criticism of 1:12 in advance. We spend the better part of twenty years, dissecting and exposing the flaws, iconsistencies, and evils of Armstrongism, in so many thousands of words proving that it is a bastard, defective philosophy which does not deserve to stand amongst other of the world's great philosophies, because it does not work and always ruins lives, and nck attributes our conclusion to blindness because we didn't care for our upbringing. Unbelievable!
I used to think that perhaps the "k" stood for Kuhn. But it appears that it might in fact have stood for Kitchen instead. Armstrong archivists could indeed also have the archives of HWA's travels in addition to all of the written materials. We see a common mentality. It just took him a year or more to finally show his true colors.
BB
nck wrote:
"My observation is both based in scientific research as always..."
OMFG! What a joke!
Trafficks nonstop in conspiracy theories...then claims all his "observations" are based in scientific research...
Just about every claim you've ever made here has been from off of "the grid" of where actual data exists to make scientific inquiry possible. Nearly all of it has been conjecture, innuendo, speculation, guesswork, and fantasy fueled by the intellectually bankrupt epistemology that religion inculcates into the gullible, that if something is merely possible then therefore, it must be probable. But you don't even state it in the terms that every alien conspiracy documentary ever made does, with the old "Is it possible that..." Nope, you state things that nobody, including yourself has ever known to be true, as though they are things that everyone has always known to be true. You state them like they're facts, when they're nothing but trash. Sensational trash, but garbage nonetheless.
Then you say this trash is based in "scientific research"?
When have you ever even provided a reliable, credible, source?
The loss of The Journal is a significant blow to the Armstrongist movement. The newspaper was a point of confluence for the many splinter groups. It was an open forum for information that possessed some legitimacy. Armstrongists would never give credence to the many blogs such as this one but they would look at The Journal to see what other splinter groups are doing.
Armstrongist leaders, if they remain true to HWA's practices, must look with hot anger and high anxiety on any free flow of information. They believe that they should have autocratic control over information because that is the tool for shaping people's minds. But The Journal, my guess, had some level of acceptance among these scattered little groups - likely because the Armstrongist leadership understood that their congregations were going to read it anyway. Because The Journal had a broader influence that than any local church rag, it fostered a common vision or sense of interdependence among Armstrongist groups. It was a kind of faux unity.
But now with The Journal's discontinuance, I expect to see Armstrongist groups become more extreme, more isolated, more truculent and more idiosyncratic. This veering away, I think, will be accompanied by dwindling numbers. Their products will simply become odder and less marketable. A web replacement might help - depends on how it is transitioned.
Alrighty. That's what you run with? Good luck with that!
BB
Good analysis, NEO @5:53. The ACOGs didn't feel threatened for the most part by the Journal. Dixon didn't attack them. We may have thought some of the ads were really from the tin foil set, but the fact that they were published and not attacked demonstrates an even-handedness that even the extreme groups would have respected.
BB
2:31
Ok 98% is from credibl easily traceable source. And I have offered many times to offer sources if asked specifically.
Your reply is standard. Criticism without asking a specific question.
In this specific case I talked about the filled churches during gulf war one an the rising christian extremism in evangelical circles over a 20 year period and the fact that many of their broadcasts use templates and pictures of the "beast" that once were confined to armstrongism and mainstream ideas now.
I really dont care of you choose to negate what I write without asking questions to Mr google, me or your local librarian.
Look at BB s reply to what I wrote. It is complete fiction that I reduced his work to a failed childhood.
I do however just noe and then release scientific information that his was not uncommon in a certain time period.
As was the spanking of mature women in 1950 america. It is not Armstrongism causing that.
I guess no one will look up the statistics of my "spanking" claim. It is way easier to blame me.
Everything I write is really easy to find.
For instance your ridiculous railing against hwa writing an article that hitler could be alive. (although he didnt think so)
Just last week the cia released files that they send out fact finding missions for that purpose until 1955.
Crying for sources. Man get some help at your local library for digital search.
Nck
Even this thread is a monument to how you all do your research.
Talking about the demise of the journal while in fact in the article it is stated that website will be put up.
Indeed I do pick up on the facts presented without providing the source that is true. But if asked I would provide the link to Dixons announcement on banned.
Nck
As a matter of fact I do believe in practice what you preach. So let me than pose a question.
Could you please provide material where hwa claimed that an unbroken line of apostolic ordinations from the time of Christ was a prerequisite for cog leadership?
If the answer is: well it was implied, or one could deduct that etc etc like you constructed the Armstrong was a prophet nonsense, I might aswe copy paste 2:31 posting in response.
Nck
I should point out that our former poster Velvet Delorey once engaged in a letters-to-editor war against some ministurd in the Journal. I forget the exact specifics in the exchange now.
!)
BB 10:46
I see you are getting a couple of facts straight.
I don't fault anyone for not being part of "the world tomorrow" as established through BI, or not looking up further when I do name relevant names, connections, data.
I am really sorry to have since 2000 only partially enlightened alumni on the boards for reason of getting blasted by their myopicness.
As Panama papers or Paradise papers are now revealed to the general public many will be more aware of what HWA was talking about when he spoke of "a world held captive".
I don't blame anyone for not knowing what the real/my world is like and believing some quasi religious philosophy that Satan is somehow ruling this world.
It is very frustrating to live in my shadow world and have my former church peers to whom ALL had been revealed relegate it to the world of conspiracy, while at the office we deal with it every day.
My thesis stands that HWA had revealed ALL of the workings of the BI establishments.
I just love your analysis of the archives. Indeed. That is all one needs to do as I have stated 25 times. Just connect the flight path of the GII to the world that is slowly being revealed to the general public, connect the names, countries, commodities, Islands, tax havens etc etc with the data as revealed in the "1/3 of prophecy and " blessed nations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradise_Papers
I know you thesis.
That HWA's influence on all of this was null and void.
That is as stupid an argument as all the journalist have investigating the 10 Russian stake in Twitter and Facebook and other media venues. They too are investigating as to what kind of influence the Russians might have had on these companies.
Again.
Of course that influence is close to zero. Just as HWA's influence on policy was close to zero. It is a classic case of not being able to see a forrest because of all the trees in front of you.
What matters concerning the Russian investment in those companies is not the controlling stake, but ONLY, that these organisations had a viable option to come to fruition for future use and of course in the process make a buck.
Now for those who might in the future want to solve this picturee.
Again connect the entire flight path of the GII to the olygarchic rulership of this world as revealed to various investigations in their proper context of the 1960-1970-1980 period and a picture will start to emerge.
2)
One more clue.
If I would ask a wcg historian for the most powerful person of the 19th century.
Within seconds they will name Queen Victoria, as probably most people on this blog will.
This poster who calls my investigation "off the grid". I don't fault that person for not knowing about MY world, so that he might not realize that Victoria in reality had to ask permission for her marriage to the HEAD of her family, the richest man of the world ruling the entire central Africa.
Now it was Stanley Rader who wrote a book exonerating an important member of this family in blatant defiance of Winston Churchill's opinion. This family prominently featured in HWA's work and they loved HWA very much. He could stay the night in their place any time. For instance just before meeting Nakasone only 15 minutes before this leader of the 2nd economic power of the world had to go into important OECD talks in Paris.
Just now and then I ask questions, to show those calling me a narcissist that I am only human. For instance I once asked the question as to why Stanley Rader would take a regular flight to Paris just 2 hours before the GII would take off to Paris. Logical people would say just sleep in and take the GII. My mum would say. He would have prepared for Mr Armstrongs arrival as a loyal servant and make up the beds in Hotel Louis XVI.
I can only pose my own theory on such illogical behaviour and leave the dogs to virtually shred me to pieces. What is verifiable is that in many articles lauding HWA's return to Pasadena after an "important" trip overseas in the byline it is stated. "Mr Rader had to drop off early in Washington for conducting business".........
nck
Ok,
Another question.
a) Close your eyes
b) Think of Mr Gotoh and form an opinion
c) Take a breath
d) Read https://us.macmillan.com/spyschools/danielgolden/9781627796354/
(Think post war/Cold War Japanese Intelligence)
e) Close your eyes
f) Think of Mr Gotoh and form an opinion
nck
Redfox 24
In response to BB question
Why was this part edited from the original wikipedia profile?
"He advised the governments of China, the United States, Germany and Israel on the commercialization of high technology."
nck
Below just an interesting off topic read for those interested:
http://americanempireproject.com/blog/spy-schools/
NCK;
Whatever became of Mr. Gotoh. It seems like an unfinished story. Do you have any information on his whereabouts, demise, accomplishments etc in his post WCG life?
When Mr. Gotoh was in our Ambassador Club, he had a very thick accent, and was extremely difficult to understand in his speeches. One time, something he said totally got by me, until later on a friend in the dorm was openly wondering about how much Mr. Gotoh actually knew about the church and its teachings. What he had said in his speech was "Please pray for Christian missionaries". The WCG did not have missionaries. He was referring to those officially known in church circles as "Christians falsely so-called".
I gradually formed the opinion that Sam Gotoh was a plant, somebody that someone higher up wanted at Ambassador College, and for whom there were plans. Later, when he began travelling around the world with HWA, I was not terribly surprised.
On the other hand, I was surprised, not because of talents involved, but because of comments I had heard from HWA in his sermons, that Mr. Rader, and Dr. Kuhn came into prominence. HWA had been stating for years that he had never met a converted Jew! There were numerous Jewish people in local congregations, and students at Ambassador College. Even my mom commented that she felt so badly for one of the church ladies who was Jewish, that she had to hear such a thing at the Feast of Tabernacles. There was not just racial prejudice towards "gentile" people in WCG. There was also anti-semitism, at least until there were prominent Jews in positions of leadership in the WCG.
BB
a)
Hello Connie,
(Interesting take BB)
Confusing if our recognized resident investigating journalist should ask questions on enigmatic mysterious key personel.
To be honest I should just answer. No.
But how boring would that be after the “jewel incident.”
This question is taking us back to a time when BB was gassed by his bean eating dorm mates while the future secretary of technology of Japan or daughters of Malaysian prime ministers were diligently studying their English lessons at ACollege.
There are several options in answering your question.
Option a: The facts
My research has only led me to documents in the Japanese language that I have not taken the time to translate.
There is however, on the most obvious social media platform, a young Gotoh person displaying some insignificant interest in Armstrong. Perhaps this “son” or grandson could enlighten us how a simple “cabdriver” rose to prominence in an american “cult” opening many a door in the Asian theatre. After some mistakes common to ordinary people rising to sudden prominence, he was left gardening a small plot of land in some outskirt.
Sounds reasonable?
end a) nck
b)
Option b: Japanese Culture
On a “non related” academic level. Research in that direction could lead one on a journey and study of Japanese (political) culture. How companies and organizations work with frontmen. The importance of being able to introduce influential people within closed circles of society. Japanese shame after WWII. Struggling to face the rest of the world and interact on a diplomatic level.
When you study the public and released minutes of Japanese diplomacy it is interesting to note how the Japanese Israeli relationship froze on diplomatic level after the 1967 war and taking of Arab land. Japan being 100% energy dependent on Arab oil was under huge pressure to condemn Israel.
At the same time we see our WCG open an “Oriental institute” in Japan where Japanese interest in Israeli culture and archeology can be displayed without political connotations. Under the sponsorship of their highest leadership and AC digs in Israel are sponsored while maintaining diplomatic pressure on Israel to maintain good relations with the Arab world, (also through combined Japanese – Syrian digs under the sponsorship of AC.)
It is also interesting to put a name on “HWA’s japanese sons”, and see how they were related to Japan’s leading families. Most rising to prominence later on.
end part b) nck
c)
Option c: Satisfying the conspiracy buffs
When I researched the money flow related to the First Gulf war I noticed that the USA was actually not losing any money on that costly war. (I am not implying in any way that the USA was in it to make money, as F16 sales to Saudi Arabia following that war are not under discussion.) The Gulf War one money flow just showed that financing of that struggle was secured by Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Europe and for an extremely high percentage Japan.
It was only then that I was reminded of the GII fly path carrying “the sons of the sun” from Tokyo to Kuwait (oil). Or tours of duty from Tokyo to South Africa (nuclear). Tokyo to South America. (Trade, mirroring the Chinese at present.)
I cannot see how these facts in any way can be considered as apologetics for HWA. Since it was very clear from HWA’s interactions with people outside the church that he really believed what he preached, he couldn’t stop blathering about religion and beast powers, where some of our toes might cringe in interaction with “outsiders”.
As shown in a painting in the NY UN building, perhaps others in his party were more aware that for the “construction” of order through the intricate weaving of a web (as in drawing lines following the flight path) it would be convenient to take a ride on the back of a spider who was just trying to do what he does best.
end part c) nck
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